Poll about damage during setting

[WinkHPD]

Date: 6/30/2005 12:52:57 PM
Author: Kaili
If a setter agrees to take the job, promises the service, and the customer is paying for the job, I think the job should be completed with no damage. If I take my computer in to have a new drive installed and the technician accepts the job, I do not expect the trained technician to break the drive. If he does, he replaces it. I know we are talking about a great deal more money with diamonds, but I feel like it is the same premise. We go to a setter because it is his/ her job to know how to set stones without damage. That is why I don''t try to do it myself.

A computer drive does not come with the possibility of unseen but "waiting to explode" internal strain, nor the cleavage waiting for just the tiniest pressure to split down the cleavage plane. A diamond is a totally different premise although I wish it were as easy as it sounds. Even the best benchman can have an unexpected disaster although thankfully they are very rare. It just is not possible for us to assume the liability for your stone, whether it be an inheritance or a new purchase in exchange for the very small profit that we make on setting them. Frankly, the "profit" is mostly non existant and we do it more as a service than as a profit. At $10 - $15 per stone it would take a loooonnnnnggggg time to replace the loss on even a $1,000 stone.

Fortunately the loss is seldom total and can usually be repaired at only a small loss of value in the diamond, but when you are wanting us to take the risk on a stone we did not sell, it is really not in our best interests to do so. It is always better if this bothers you to let you take your buisiness to someone willing to take the risk, but when asked, I have never had a client tell me "Sure, go ahead and tack on an extra $200 per stone that you set for me so that if any break you take the responsibility". I have asked, and had many tell me emphatically, "NO!".

I know this seems unfair to many, but with the small margins allowed to us it is patently unfair to us to do it the way that you would like.

Wink who would LOVE to make the $75 an hour that my computer tech does when he fixes my toys...

 

[FireGoddess]

Date: 6/30/2005 5:42:34 PM
Author: solange
I just called the agent who handles all our insurance said that our policy would not cover the stone when it was out of my possession and being worked on by a jeweler. She said this would be a matter for the Jeweler's insurance company.

This is exactly what I thought...

From what I have read here, jewelers are unable to get this kind of policy so I guess you are on yoiur own if your stone is damaged during setting unless the jeweler wants to assume responsibility.

If that is true (inability to get this kind of policy)....then NOBODY is covering the stone while it's being set? That doesn't make much sense either...??? (and makes me never ever want to get another stone or have it set!!! at least, from 2 separate jewelers...as I'm assuming if you have it set from the person you buy off of, this is not an issue?)

 

[WinkHPD]

Date: 6/30/2005 1:29:52 PM
Author: FireGoddess

REALLY???? I had no idea. That kinda sucks...

LOL! Yes it DOES!!!

Wink

 

[WinkHPD]

Date: 6/30/2005 2:17:08 PM
Author: 1stdiamondbuy
I.

I also think that if chipping a diamond during setting is as rare as it sounds on here, the setters could essentially self-insure. If they charged an extra $25 or so for each setting and turned away the very risky stones, if they chipped 1 out of 300, they could replace a $7500 stone. I think a $25 ''insurance charge'' for each setting would be reasonable. However, I understand that they aren''t in the insurance business, and I think it would make a lot more sense for online diamond sellers to work with an insurance company to develop a loose diamond policy.

Unfortunately if and when we try to charge any extra, even ten to fifteen dollars we are told that our prices are ridicules.

Wink

 

[diamondsbylauren]

Excellent conversation Neil!!!

We can also confirm that no such insurance ( setters insured against breakage) exists.
Someone said the jewelry industry should tell the insurance company that they shouyld offer this.
When''s the last time an insurance company based their policy on what you wanted?


There''s simply NO way to protect one''s self agianst the risk of a setter damaging a stone.

Chipping the corners on Trilliants is fairly common.
If he ( or she) chips a .35 trilliant, it''s usually quite an easy fix- becasue this type of chip is usually not too deep. A quick re-cut, and in many cases, it will even fit back into the setting. There''s little or no loss on this example.

How about this:
I am familiar with a case of f setter chipping a 2.01 F/VS1 Princess cut''s corner.
THe recut required a re- submission to GIA- AND the re-submitted diamond weighed 1.97 carats, and got G/VS1.
Now you''re talking thousands in damages.
The setter charged $25 to set the stone- should he pay?

We pay very high prices to our setters- the senior guys make a far better living than many computer technicians.
In the long run, it''s less expensive to pay a higher salary to a more competant setter.

I figure a cost of about $50 to set a 2 carat diamond.

Many places will quote $10.
Everyone is free to pay that $10- but do you really see any way that the setter can actually cover the risk of a 2carat diamond on a $10 setting job?
Or even on a $50 setting job?

Sure, that would be great if a setter could charge a $25 insurance fee- and hold the money till he chips a stone.
How likely is that? The best setter can make a very very nice living- but that''s only the very top percentile. Many setters are in no way "big bucks" businesses. Could they afford to have $15,000 lying around waiting till they chip a stone?

As wink suggested ( HI Wink!) we will only assume that kind of risk if we sold the stone- I think this is common.

I also feel this points out the problem of buying a loose diamond on the web, and then trying to have it set locally.

 

[Regular Guy]

Back again on the topic of gaining agreement with the setter before the job starts on what the value of the daimond is, Steve you note:

Date: 6/30/2005 3:23:42 PM
Author: Feydakin

Author: Regular Guy
I wonder if anyone on board here has a standard approach to this?

Some of us do and have had it up on our websites for a while now.. It comes down to a choice on how to compete in the modern age of jewelry.. Accept the risk for less pay, or not accept the risk for less pay.. In either case, many jewelers are thinning their margins as much as they can and still stay in the game..

Steve, if you were talking about your site, this is the only text I could find...

"Workmanship Defects:
In the unlikely event that you receive your jewelry with a workmanship defect, please contact our sales staff as soon as possible at (574) 264-2040 for instructions on returning the item for repair or remanufacture. You may also eMail us at [email protected], but a phone call is preferred due to the time savings...."

...which does not seem exactly on point. Were you talking about other text on your site, or about other sites. Can you document any?

Thanks,

 

[Kaili]

I''m wondering if the jewelers'' insurance covers unforseen chipping, cracking, etc when they set their own stones or are they at a loss there as well? What do you do if one of your own diamonds chips or cracks in an unforseen situation?

Does the insurance that you have specifically cover only stones that you have bought and have a receipt for or does it cover "x" amount of dollars worth of merchandise?

I do understand that jewelry insurance is different than renters insurance. Our renters policy covers a specific dollar amount of items in the home. It doesn''t matter if we bring things in or out, it just caps off at a particular sum. How does it work for stores? Just curious

 

[Regular Guy]

Date: 6/30/2005 7:00:47 PM
Author: crankydave

Date: 6/30/2005 6:45:42 PM
Author: Regular Guy
Back again on the topic of gaining agreement with the setter before the job starts on what the value of the daimond is....

Ira,

From the FAQ page on the site, here''s the quote...

Who is responsible for my diamond or Gemstone during setting?
We are! Images Jewelers has been creating fine jewelry for over 30 years and our craftsmen are among the best. While we understand the reasoning behind having the customer take responsibility, we believe that as the professional in the relationship, it is important that we take the responsibility. There may be occasions where upon inspection of the diamond or gemstone we see more risk to the integrity of the stone. In these cases we will contact you and explain our concerns with you and we can then decide how to proceed. We also have set a limit of $25,000 on the value of the stones we will cover ourselves. If your diamond or gemstone should exceed this value we will discuss with you our options after we inspect the stone. In many cases we will still take full responsibility.

Cranky and Steve,

Thank you both. Perhaps I should say that answers the main question of the thread. It just doesn''t, from what I can tell, address the procedural part raised by the question asked before me, but I''m just bringing forward...and that is determining the valuation of the diamond at the point of the beginning of the job. Does Images, as a matter of course, seek to establish valuation of the goods as part of the intake procedure? If not, is there any expected way of determining valuation, after the fact?

Sorry if I''m missing it.

 

[Regular Guy]

Date: 6/30/2005 7:19:57 PM
Author: crankydave
Ira,

Let me say simply, that I quoted the web site since I was familiar with it and you, based upon your post, were not.....

Dave

Ahem....

Try this link.

 

[diamondsbylauren]

Kaili,
The "block policy" insurance coverage commonly used by jewelers, covers only theft.
In my experience, the owner is ultimately responsible for the damage during setting.
BTW- I also don't like the "sue-fest" that goes on sometimes. But I would think that a consumer with a policy specifically covering a diemaond ring, which does not specifically mention having it wprked on, would/should cover the diamond if it's owned by a consumer, and they have that coverage.
Maybe someone who does have this kind of policy could reads it and tell us.



This can work to the consumer's benefit, if they are buying stones, and having them set from a company with a money back guarantee.
If the seller's setter chips a stone, the buyer can simply opt for the money back guarantee- this kind of puts the onus on the seller.

 

[denverappraiser]

Date: 6/30/2005 7:10:07 PM
Author: Regular Guy

Cranky and Steve,

Thank you both. Perhaps I should say that answers the main question of the thread.

Regular,

I'm not so sure it does. Roughly a third of the people who have voted so far think the jeweler should take responsibility for their work no matter what and roughly half have said that the jeweler should take the responsibility but it's ok to charge more. If I could do it over again I would add a few more choices because 22% voting for 'other' seems like a sign of a poorly designed survey. In any case, Images does not offer it as an option to their clients. The insurance is included in the price and if you don't want it you should go elsewhere. Wink won't do the jobs at all because he hasn't been able to charge enough to make it worth his trouble. A growing number of jewelers are taking this approach and I can't blame them although we've had comments that this is a sour grapes conspiracy for losing the diamond sale. Diamondsbylauren apparently assumes the risk for the stones he has set and he won't take in outside setting jobs. Dave, would you care to share your stores policy? These are all different tactics to address the same problem. I have no idea what Images charges but they have undoubtably considered this issue in creating that policy. I'ld be willing to bet that they won't set a 2 carat princess for $50.

The main question of this thread, in my thinking, is 'How should setters handle the breakage liability issue?'. An interesting sub-issue is 'How should a customer shop for setting services?' Do you like Images approach? Does it matter what they charge?


Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ISA NAJA
Independent Appraisals in Denver

 

[diamondsbylauren]

Sure Neil,
We do not make our pieces with diamonds purchased elsewhere.

I don't blame Wink one bit either- it's simply not possible to charge enough to cover the downside, if you're not also selling the diamond.
It's not like we can make a million dollars on the diamond- but it puts the seller in a much better position if their main business is diamonds, and setting the diamond is simply an added service to the consumer- Of course the seller can also generate modest profits if they don't go breaking a lot of 2 carat princess cuts...heheheh

The way I read it, the site linked to says you can use your own diamonds or gemstones, and they take responsibility. They list a limit of $25K.
I'd guess that if it happended a few times, they'd have to change the policy- as it stands, it's a great protection for the consumer. there's no prices listed on the site, so it's hard to say if they are charging a lot for this service. There's also no specifics on how they would indemnify a claim. replace the diamond? Re-cut the diamond? Pay for you to replace the diamond at a seller of your choice, with a stone of your choice? Important stuff this.

I would not bet against Neil on this one- I don't see them setting a 2 ct diamond for $50 either.
Which is actually going against the reason why many folks think it's better to use different setter and diamond dealer- to save money.
Anybody else know of others offering such a guarantee?

 

[Regular Guy]

Oofah...

Date: 6/30/2005 8:03:58 PM
Author: crankydave

Date: 6/30/2005 7:24:12 PM
Author: Regular Guy

Date: 6/30/2005 7:19:57 PM
Author: crankydave
Ira,

Let me say simply, that I quoted the web site since I was familiar with it and you, based upon your post, were not.....

Dave

Ahem....

Try this link.

What is your point Ira?

Try THIS link.

One click from all pages. You failed to do your homework prior to posting.

Dave

Dave,

The section I took from in the Images website, you get to when you hit from their main page: "Guarantee." Although that section seems more logical to me than the FAQs section, nevertheless, your quote was better than mine, with respect to the main theme of this thread -- and yet my point is that neither quotes address the procedural question that has been raised here...how do setters, when taking in a job, routinely value the diamond being accepted. It''s admirable to guarantee the work, but the devil can be in the details, and I just wanted to know if there was any established practice that jewelers do practice for establishing a diamond''s value before beginning the work. I hadn''t seen this documented anywhere, and still don''t. If any insight can be shared on this...I''m really just curious. While I can believe, from comments both you and Steve have shared previously, that you''d welcome discussion from your customers on any number of things, the point here is more how the jeweler initiates the discussion, if they do, on this point.

OK?

 

[Kaili]

Date: 6/30/2005 7:48:01 PM
Author: diamondsbylauren
Kaili,
The ''block policy'' insurance coverage commonly used by jewelers, covers only theft.
In my experience, the owner is ultimately responsible for the damage during setting.
BTW- I also don''t like the ''sue-fest'' that goes on sometimes. But I would think that a consumer with a policy specifically covering a diemaond ring, which does not specifically mention having it wprked on, would/should cover the diamond if it''s owned by a consumer, and they have that coverage.
Maybe someone who does have this kind of policy could reads it and tell us.



This can work to the consumer''s benefit, if they are buying stones, and having them set from a company with a money back guarantee.
If the seller''s setter chips a stone, the buyer can simply opt for the money back guarantee- this kind of puts the onus on the seller.

That brings up a good point. If my diamond is insured generally, no matter where I go, and covers me if I hit it against something and chip it, then would it not be covered if a setter chipped it? I still have to research the jewelry insurance policies and get one in place for myself, so I have no idea how the policies read. Could someone with Chubb or another policy please let us know what it covered?
Thanks!

 

[diamondsbylauren]

Steve,
Great points, and a great policy.

Your post clears up any logistic questions I had. Offering such a guarantee, is uncommon, and noteworthy!
I never meant to imply you need publish prices- I actually did not realize that the owner of the Images Jewelers site was here involved in the conversation. My bad!

 

[denverappraiser]

Steve,

I''m not saying that you offer this as an optional or add on feature. You offer a quality service and this is something your customres want. I''m just pointing out that this is part of the package that you offer and that you aren''t the cheapest jeweler in the city, nor should you be. Customers who want a lower price and don''t value that policy can go elsewhere. I''m sure there are some that do. I wouldn''t expect that you''ll miss them.


Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ISA NAJA
Independent Appraisal in Denver

 

[Regular Guy]

Thanks, gentlemen and gentladies. Although I would say thanks for bearing with me, I really thought this thread, to greater or lesser extents, was about handling the details of the setting thing. A major detail is determining who has responsibility. Though it is only another detail, the issue of the process by which an agreed upon value is determined is not intended to look look like I''m finding "something wrong with everything." As Belle said earlier: "i am curious however, from your perspective neil, how should the value of the stone be determined..." The response:

Date: 6/30/2005 11:30:29 AM
Author: denverappraiser
Belle,

I''m not sure. I guess I would suggest starting with an agreed value at the time of take in. .... Do you have a suggestion?

Maybe this is just obvious, and standard; I wasn''t sure. As I reflected on it, after I had my wife''s engagement ring appraised, I was encouraged to have some minor work on the setting, and so I took it to Quest Jewelers. They had a very informal intake form...maybe everyone has something like this. They asked, as I recall, my name, address, phone, and value of the ring. I wrote down the number that was reflective of the appraised value I''d left the appraiser with....and that was it. As you say, Steve, probably if the number I wrote down was out of kilter with what he would have found reasonable, he would have stopped me on the spot. Frankly, no discussion had happened at any time concerning responsibility for breakage, and it wasn''t really on my mind (and from what I read here, maybe you could die trying to hurt a round diamond and not succeed!). But, having written down the number, and with him having accepted the job, I''m thinking that, had a problem been encountered, the number I wrote down and he accepted would have been the working basis for... whatever resolution would follow from that.

So in this case, the process was cut and dried...the setter asks the question about the value straight out, with the intake. Maybe this is routine, after all, and would answer at least that procedural question.

Cheers,

 

[RockDoc]

Neil Great thread.......

There are a lot of valid point brought up by both consumers and jewelers commenting here.


Since regular coverage for stone setting damage isn''t available by insurance, let''s ask why; at least from the consumer''s availability of insurance.

First consideration is the type of insurance policy that the consumer gets. Just scheduling a jewelry item on a homeowners oolicy such as an HO2 is not an all risk policy. As such if there is a cliam insurance companies have many exclusions written into the policy. Wear and tear is one, also stone loss due to exposing the ring to caustic chemicals can be another.

I just completed a course in evaluation damaged jewelry - which is being offered to many adjusters. There are examples of damage to the alloy be exposing the item to caustic chemicals..... mainly bleach and chlorine in swimming pools. Such damage can be seen using microscopic examination of broken prongs. The alloy crystalizes, and isn''t reparable.

In an all risk policy, just about any type of cliam is covered. Interestingly - I haven''t read or seen a disclosure in all risk type policies that specifically excludes coverage of loss or damage when an item is being set. The "better" insurance companies would probably pay a claim for repiar and loss of value, or replace the item, however, they also maintain the right to subrogate against the jeweler, if it is determined that the qulaity of workmanship was lacking.

The "bad" reality of this with this is while a jeweler may disclaim liability with the consumer, the insurance company can still go after him, later on. This of course presents a level of risk, that many jewelers don''t count on. And even if a signed agreement to exclude their liability in such cases, the agreement is made between the customer and the jeweler, not between the jeweler and the insurance company.

There is also a "movement" of opinion with insurance companies I learned in this course to not cover 4 prong settings, as a far higher amount of stone loss claims eminates from 4 prong settings vs. 6 prong settings. I dont remember the exact statistics, but it''s approximate stated ratio is about 6 out of 8 losses are due to even a single broken prong. Also a great number of these was to due poor workmanship particularly when retipping prongs when the settings should have been replaced. ( Many times due to increased brittleness of the metal after coming in contact with chlorine or bleach.

Second, there is the situation of determining and calculating risk. Very obviously the risk in setting a princess cut, has to be far greater than that of other shapes. On pears and marquises the girdles are made very thick to avoid setting damage or wear damage. In the case of princess cut tips, the risk is many times higher than that of other shapes. Expecting a cheap price and the potential assumption of liability is of course unreasonable for anyone to take on. Additionally, what about consumers that purchase stones with feathers near the girdle edge?

I provide the service of having stones sent in for analysis set in moutnings for the consumer as a needed courtesy. I do not set the stones myself... but I attentively supervise and discuss any concerns with the setter, which consumers don''t think about doing. Recently, I did supervise the setting work of a large princess cut. I discussed my concerns with the person I use to set stones. He does not do any other work besides setting. So every job, I discuss the nature of the stone with him, and any concerns I have. In the recent princess, I adivsed the consumer to have the corner chamfered to reduce any setting risks. This was done with a carat weight loss of 0.01 carats, and a modest cost. The attentiveness to this paid off.. The stone was set with no issues arising. I am thinking of suggesting it with all princess cuts. But each stone is different. I think planning and discussion is the key - but certainly not a "cure all".

Then I don''t think anyone taking on a job would be unwilling to make a repair, but when considering all the different types of stones ( some being more prone to "problems" than others, this has to be taken into consideration. Put more basically, was the cause of the damage due to the nature of the stone itself, or the carelessness or incompetence of the person doing the work?

I think there are just too many variables, I certainly understand the jeweler''s position of getting a small charge, and taking on a $ 25,000 liability, but I also understand and sympthize with the consumer''s viewpoints too.

It''s really a sort of nebulous subject that has so many variables, that it is really difficult to impossible to make a uniform decision about. I guess its best approached as a case by case decision but I certainly do support discussing it beforehand.


Rockdoc

 

[perry]

As a consumer I find it amazing that a vendor could accept work on anything and then claim that they were not liable if damage occurs while in their hands... Unless, they specifically discussed the issue up front. Auto Repair shops are always dealing with this. If it breaks while in their hands... It''s their''s to fix.

Part of running any business is being able to communicate with your customers, and in making decissions on which customers (general class) and which specific customers (individuals) you do not want to work with.

The fact is that almost every jewelry store routinely sets diamonds that they did not sell. Replacement of the setting is quite common, and the fact that they are selling a $100-$300 setting (the most common) does not offset the risk associated with damaging a diamond.

Thus, I would expect that a jewelry store accept setting my diamonds.

However, good business practice would indicate that the jewelry store should disucss with me upfront (and have a written policy) concerning their policies on damage and the cost affect''s .

I have no problem with the concept of a written policy along the following lines:

1) We will set the diamond for free, and assume all liability, if you are bying the diamond and setting from us.

2) We will evaluate any other diamond and setting up front for setting issus and either agree to accept the liability up to $______, or advise you of the issues and the options before we set/reset the diamond (and require a signed agreement - that perhaps waives all liability). Note that we cannot fully evalute the diamond untill it is removed from your existing setting, and are not liable for any damage already existing that does not become apparent untll the diamond is removed from the setting. Our liability in all cases where we are using another diamond or setting is limited to $______.

4) Setting fees are based on the following:
Based on a fixed charge of $____ plus a percentage of estimated value of the diamond.
The setting charge is (reduced, eliminated, ect, ect) if you are buying a replacement setting from us.

While it it true that a jeweler could state up front that they will accept no liability at all for damage to the diamond; I fail to see how they would stay in business. This is just permission to do crude work and make the customers pay for your benchjewelers education. Good jewelers know how to evaluate risk, and know that they must accept some risk as well.

For a jeweler to not be willing to accept any liability and not tell the customer up front (in writing) is unacceptable - and I don''t think would generally stand up in court (although I would not want to try to predict any actual court rulling).

Perry

 

[WinkHPD]

Date: 6/30/2005 7:51:15 PM
Author: denverappraiser

Date: 6/30/2005 7:10:07 PM

Regular,


{SNIP}

Wink won''t do the jobs at all because he hasn''t been able to charge enough to make it worth his trouble. A growing number of jewelers are taking this approach and I can''t blame them although we''ve had comments that this is a sour grapes conspiracy for losing the diamond sale.

(SNIP}

The main question of this thread, in my thinking, is ''How should setters handle the breakage liability issue?''. An interesting sub-issue is ''How should a customer shop for setting services?'' Do you like Images approach? Does it matter what they charge?



Neil Beaty

GG(GIA) ISA NAJA

Independent Appraisals in Denver

I did not say I would not do the work. I said I would only do the work if it is clear that I do not accept any liability.

I always have and always will accept liability for stones that I sell, even though the margins these days are very thin. I specialize in extremely well cut stones, so my risk is miniscule as well. (actually somewhat higher with Richard Homer''s color as his magnificent stones rarely fit premade heads, but that is another issue.)

Even though the risk is minor, I can not and will not accept a risk that could put me out of business and my family into hock to make a ten to fifteen dollar profit. It is just that simple for me and has nothing to do with sour grapes. For my internet clients this has been a non issue, as I can count on one hand the number of people who have even asked me to set a stone that I did not sell. For my local clients it will occassionally become an issue, mostly on inherited pieces as I loose VERY few sales to the net.

Wink

 

[denverappraiser]

Steve,

Back when I was doing this sort of work, our shop set diamonds that we didn’t sell on a regular basis and our policy was to take breakage risk on every stone unless it was specifically declined by either the benchworker or manager. It’s not a new issue.

The 1% number was just a sample for discussion purposes to see if people even liked the idea of it.
Wink,

I apologize for the mistatement. I stand corrected.

Perry,

That’s a pretty good sample policy. I would recommend including a specific valuation on the stone (and mounting) and at least a summary comment on how problems will be resolved. As David pointed out above, it’s usually not a 100% loss although there needs to be some agreement about who will end up owning the salvaged stone. By this I mean that if a jeweler damages a 1.00ct stone, recuts it resulting in a 0.94ct stone that is worth less, is it acceptable to pay for the repairs and the loss in value or can the customer reasonably say that they don’t want a 0.94 and that the jeweler should replace the whole thing? What if it drops from a 2.08 to a 2.06 with the repairs?

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ISA NAJA
Independent Appraisals in Denver

 

[WinkHPD]

RE: 4) Setting fees are based on the following:
Based on a fixed charge of $____ plus a percentage of estimated value of the diamond.
The setting charge is (reduced, eliminated, ect, ect) if you are buying a replacement setting from us.

-------------------------

I have a HUGE problem with this approach as it sets up the unethical to make diproportionate profits. In the appraisal field charging a percentage of the value is expressly forbidden by every major appraisal association that I have ever belonged to and in my opinion it should be! I dislike the very concept for what to me are obvious ethical reasons and although I might have to charge more to set a large and expensive stone because it will cost me more to set it, I will not be charging more as a percentage of the value. (Many setters base their setting fee on the size of the stone, regardless of value.)

Wink

 

[WinkHPD]

Date: 7/1/2005 10:05:29 AM
Author: denverappraiser

{SNIP}

Wink,


I apologize for the mistatement. I stand corrected.


{SNIP}


Neil Beaty

GG(GIA) ISA NAJA

Independent Appraisals in Denver

No apology needed my friend, you have been making many fair and reasonable comments, I knew no foul was intended, I just wanted to better state my comment so that it was clear..

This has been a great thread!

Wink

 

[WinkHPD]

Good point. I must stop thinking like an appraiser, I must stop thinking like an appraiser, I must...

 

[denverappraiser]

Date: 7/1/2005 8:44:03 AM
Author: perry

4) Setting fees are based on the following:
Based on a fixed charge of $____ plus a percentage of estimated value of the diamond.
The setting charge is (reduced, eliminated, ect, ect) if you are buying a replacement setting from us.

Perry

Wink,

A percentage of the declared possible loss is exactly how the insurance companies generally set their rates for insuring various kinds of risk. *IF* an insurance company were to offer this type of coverage, this would surely be the basis for their fees.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ISA NAJA
Independent Appraisals in Denver

 

[PhillipSchmidt]

It is only possible to set a levy for stone damage when you take each stone into account.

After you see the stone you have to take the style of setting into acount.

the onus is on the person who accepted the job to complete work as promised.

I am imagining a public with access to mounts ready made to size who are looking for a setter. That kind of setting is more expensive anyway, because it is hard to organise. Insurance for the public is a matter taken into account for time expectations.
That is the jeweller should charge as much as is needed to make sure they/you can be absolutely sure the diamond will not be damaged, or easily replacable.

Otherwise the risk is yours.

Each business is different in how much they are willing to account for. One would expect that those selling the stone would take the risk if they are setting the stone, as until you pay for the finished piece it is still theirs and the deal is from them to you personally.

If the loss is incured generally as in the loss is taken onboard and the whole thing is scored on a profit and loss ratio, then after time, charges and levies could be refined.

Then we could have an arcade somewhere in the world where a setter could set up shop as a private setter.

doubt it...

Phillip

 

[dimonbob]

In my opinion... If the jeweler sells the diamond and the ring, there should be no extra charge for setting or sizing.

If the jeweler is setting a diamond he did not sell in the jewelers setting there should be a setting charge. It should be a flat fee up to a certain value and more for higher priced goods.

If I take a $40,000 diamond to a jeweler and ask him to set it in his ring the jeweler needs to protect himself against anything happening to that diamond. Most jewelers cannot afford a $40,000 hit if they chip someone''s diamond. Some might say that the jeweler should be more careful. Careful or not, things happen. I have seen it happen. Ping...jewelers face gets very pale .... #%&@#!!! It is never pleasant. The customers diamond is all of a sudden worth twice as much and your insurance company wants to raise your rates.

 

[Kaili]

Dave,
I like the graphic communication... very effective

 

[oldminer]

We are willing to have our appraisal client's diamond's set into mountings that they may have provided to us. We don't ever make the attempt to sell custom made mountings to the public. Sometimes we will supply a standard solitaire, like from a Stuller catalog, and set a diamond for a client.

We accept the responsibility for any damage that might occur. It is extremely rare that a skilled setter breaks a diamond. Princess cuts, the ones with thin edges and sharp points are most commonly the least durable and pose the greatest risk. We often insist that these be only set by the original seller. This does cut our risk down a great deal and gives the client the best possible situation.

Our fees are not high ones as the risk seems low enough to us. We have had skilled setters, ones who work in our local jewelry district, set thousands of diamonds over the years and I can't remember the last one of my stones that suffered any damage. If diamonds are being broken it generally is a fragile princess cut or a setter that just does not have the master's touch.

With falling profit margins, retailers look to create profit centers out of work they might have used to refuse. Saying one can't be held liable puts off potential customers and is not generally a realistic way to promote one's business. In order to do business, one must take measured risks for sufficient rewards, not refuse the work....

Just like we guarantee our grading, we guarantee our setting. We do it properly and without fear of a problem. If there is a problem, we make it right. It would be an easier place for consumers if more people acted this way.

 

[oldminer]

Local setters say they are liable for repairing damage, but probably would balk at replacing a totally broken diamond. We just make the assumption that one way or the other if we agree to set a diamond, that we accept responsibility for it. If we can lay this off on someone willing that''s fine, but if not, then it is on us anyway.

We have had zero problems with round diamonds and only a couple with princess cuts. These happily were not major issues, jsut fractured points that were readily repaired, but we did lay all of this out for the consumers whose stone was involved. For this reason we may not always accept a setting job. We reserve the right to say no when that is best for everyone. Fragile diamonds are best set ONLY be the original vendor. No one else will be responsible or collect enough to cover the potential damage. For the vast majority of diamonds coming our way, we''d have no issue with saying we will protect the client''s interest in full. It is a risk we decided to take to be a little unique and less argumentative to do business with..... Everyone out there can choose their own path. Ultimately it is the consumer that makes the decision as to who will be suitable to sell them a diamond, set it or appraise it. The fewer the roadblocks, the more work we can do for people.