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NLUV

Rough_Rock
Joined
Apr 22, 2003
Messages
16
I just discovered this site and found it to be an endless resource of great knowledge and opinions. As I will be popping the question shortly, I would appreciate your comments on this particular diamond I’ve come across. My only concern is the medium blue florescence and of course if the price is right.

certified: GIA
Shape/Cut: Round Brilliant
Weight: 1.00
Measurement: 6.39x6.42x4.00 mm
Color/Clarity: E/VVS2
Floresence : Medium Blue
Polish : VERY GOOD
Symettry : VERY GOOD

Proportions:
Depth : 62.5%
Table : 56%
Culet : none
Gridle : Medium, Faceted

Price : $6,400 US

Thanks for taking the time.

NLUV
 

Richard Sherwood

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Sep 25, 2002
Messages
4,924
-----------
My only concern is the medium blue florescence and of course if the
price is right.
-----------

If those are your only concerns, you're good-to-go. Medium blue fluorescence is not visually a problem (in my opinion). Rapaport lists E/VVS stones as being discounted 3 to 7% for medium blue fluorescence, which would definitely be encompassed within the excellent price you're being offered the stone at.

As an appraiser though, I would advise you to find out the crown/pavilion height/angles to better determine the optical performance of the stone. It's not an unreasonable request when you're shelling out 6000+ dollars.
 

NLUV

Rough_Rock
Joined
Apr 22, 2003
Messages
16
Should the GIA certificate include the crown/pavilion height/angles, as the certificate I was shown did not include these figures? Also based on the given depth and table I was told by the jeweler that this was an ideal cut. Is this correct?

I appreciate your assistance Rich and I'm also open to additional comments or advice.

NLUV
 

NLUV

Rough_Rock
Joined
Apr 22, 2003
Messages
16
I just spoke with the jeweler and he does not have the crown/pavilion height/angles. How can I tell it is a good diamond without this information? He only has the GIA report, which he faxed to me today, and unfortunately the diamond won't be in until next week. However, the report showed one pinpoint and one cloud on the face. Will the cloud be visible and does this effect pricing? He also said I can put a refundable deposit down to secure it. Before I do, I would appreciate some reassurance.

THANKS AGAIN
 

Richard Sherwood

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Sep 25, 2002
Messages
4,924
-----------
just spoke with the jeweler and he does not have the crown/pavilion
height/angles.....He only has the GIA report...
-----------

This is very common. Most jewelers do not have in-store access to a Sarin machine or a gemologist. The GIA (which is operating a little behind-the-times in this respect) does not supply crown-pavilion height-angles. Most jewelers regard the GIA as the "last word" on diamond certification, therefore fell like if they don't supply it, it's not worth bothering with.

The truth is that there can be dramatic differences between two stones with the same total depth. See PriceScope's tutorial illustrating this at:

https://www.pricescope.com/tutor_60.asp

-----------
How can I tell it is a good diamond without this information?
-----------

You can't. At least regarding the cut.

-----------
However, the report showed one pinpoint and one cloud on the face.
Will the cloud be visible and does this effect pricing?
-----------

No, on a VVS stone the cloud will definitely not be visible. You probably won't even be able to spot it with a loupe. Clouds are usually "phantom" type inclusions, often visibile only under a microscope with darkfield or lateral illumination.

-----------
He also said I can put a refundable deposit down to secure it.
-----------

There you go. In addition to that, I would tell the jeweler that you want a reasonable grace period in which you can make sure the diamond appraises to your satisfaction, and the guarantee that you can return it if FOR ANY REASON you're not satisfied.

If the jeweler hasn't been able to supply you with crown & pavilion information by then, you'll be able to get it from the appraiser (make sure it's an appraiser who supplies this information, and is "independent"- doesn't buy or sell).
 

Garry H (Cut Nut)

Super_Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Aug 15, 2000
Messages
15,305
In love you can ask your vendor to ask the stone supplier for GIA to supply the crown and pavilion angles.

They have the #'s, but will only supply them to the owner who submitted the stone. It will come as a surprise to the jeweller and the dealer, but persist as it is only a fax / call or email.
 

NLUV

Rough_Rock
Joined
Apr 22, 2003
Messages
16
----------------
On 4/23/2003 9:16:14 PM Richard Sherwood wrote:

-----------
Also based on the given depth and table I was told by the jeweler
that this was an ideal cut. Is this correct?
-----------

Not unless he's a psychic.

----------------
According to the AGA Round Brilliant Cut Grading Chart my diamond falls within the specs for table and total depth, but I'm assuming that it will also need to fit within the requirements for crown angle, height and pavilion depth to be classified as an American Ideal Cut. The discouraging part is that most of the local jewelers I've visited told me that based on the table and depth alone classified their stones as ideal cut.
 

NLUV

Rough_Rock
Joined
Apr 22, 2003
Messages
16
----------------
On 4/24/2003 7:56:42 AM Cut Nut wrote:

In love you can ask your vendor to ask the stone supplier for GIA to supply the crown and pavilion angles.

They have the #'s, but will only supply them to the owner who submitted the stone. It will come as a surprise to the jeweller and the dealer, but persist as it is only a fax / call or email.
----------------
Thanks Gary. I'll definitely request this information and hopefully receive it before finalizing the purchase, but what if the angles are still not provided? Should I walk away or can a diamond's radiance and cut be determined by the naked eye or even with a loop? Will the angles determine the value?
 

NLUV

Rough_Rock
Joined
Apr 22, 2003
Messages
16
I just spoke with the jeweler and told him that I would be there today to pay the refundable deposit but in order for me to make my final decision I would need the crown and pavilion angles before. He said he would do his best and let me know once I arrive there today.

A couple of questions:
1. What proof am I looking for? i.e. documents, certificats, etc.
2. What if he just tells me the angles w/o documenation? What then?
 

Mara

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Oct 30, 2002
Messages
31,003
He may only be able to tell you the angles, and then you can plug them into the HCA to get an idea of how this diamond may perform on fire, scint, brilliance and spread. From the #'s, the stone looks to be a tad bit smaller than an excellently cut 1.0c stone at 6.40mm rather than 6.5mm...but that is objective.

The other comment is that its interesting that this stone is exactly 1.0c as sometimes stones that are EXACTLY 1.0c mean that there was something done to tweak the stone in order to reach that magical 1.0c mark where they can then ask more $$ for the stone. Sometimes this is a slight girdle thickness or a tad bit more of depth in the stone which can bump a .98c stone into the 1.0c range. This stone at 62.5% may be carrying the touch of extra weight...but again you will not know more until you get those crown and pav angles!!! It could be a very well cut stone, you will soon see.
 

fire&ice

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Jul 22, 2002
Messages
7,828
Also, measurements should be more like 6.50.

Just my 2cents, if this doesn't work out, perhaps you should look at a F/G stone in the VS1/2 range. YOu will either be able to go up in carat weight or save yourself $$$ for future life together. Diamonds are graded face down for color & clarity is under 10x. I would focus more on the cut of a stone vs color & clarity especially in this size. I *do* like the Med blue though!

Good luck.
 

NLUV

Rough_Rock
Joined
Apr 22, 2003
Messages
16
Thanks Mara and fire&ice. I just returned from the jeweler and he will get me the measurements hopefully by early next week.
Since my other concern was the medium blue florescence, I asked to see a similar stone with this characteristic outside and I was very disappointed. There was overcast and I still saw hints of violet/light blue. I did a search and it seems to be a personal preference on this subject. I had discretely tossed the topic around with my girlfriend the other night and she disliked the idea of having a blue diamond. So besides the pending measurements this unfortunately might be the deciding factor. The next similar stone he has available is about $800 more so cost is definitely a factor.

I also briskly shopped at a nearby jewelry shop and was offered the following diamond. Please advise.

Certified: GIA
Shape/Cut: Round Brilliant/Ideal, H&A
Weight: 1.02
Measurement: 6.42-6.48x4.01 mm
Color/Clarity: F/VVS2
Florescence: None
Polish: VERY GOOD
Symmetry: VERY GOOD

Proportions:
Depth: 62.2%
Table: 58%
Culet: none
Gridle: Thin-Medium

Price : $6,980 US

She did not have the diamond in-stock but gave me a printout, which also included %RAP: HBNN and Make: A. I'm not too sure what these mean so I'd appreciate some enlightenment. Also no crown or pavillion angles were given either but I didn't have time to ask.

Thanks,
NLUV
 

Mara

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Oct 30, 2002
Messages
31,003
Just out of curiosity, why are you considering stones that are VVS? These are going to be marked up over stones that are VS and your eye cannot see inclusions at VS OR VVS, so in my mind it's just like you are throwing extra money at the vendor for no reason. The F may be that you want colorless, but many a person has a G (that would be me) for much cheaper and don't notice a difference between the E/F/G. My coworker has an E and I put it against mine and not only does my stone look better and brighter, but you cannot see one hint of color difference. She paid way more for her 'quality, colorless' stone too.
 

Mara

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Oct 30, 2002
Messages
31,003
Just for fun ran a quick Pscope search. Found the following. Also check out www.goodoldgold.com as Jonathan has around 15 hand-picked H&A stones on his site around E/VS 1c size.

You will see some of the specs and reports that are done on these, and then you can start to compare the wealth of info on these websites to the lack of info you are getting with your offline vendors. You will see why its so important to ask the other questions and get the Sarin and other info.


http://www.niceice.com/certcopies/gia12485230/index.htm

1.04 G VS2 H&A AGS0 $6270 1.3 HCA EX


http://www.niceice.com/certcopies/ags0003501601/index.htm

1.01 E VS2 H&A AGS0 $6700 1.6 HCA EX


http://www.niceice.com/certcopies/1034fvs2_ags3174803/index.htm

1.03 F VS2 H&A AGS0 $6885 1.2 HCA EX


http://www.whiteflash.com/acut/diamond_details.asp?ItemCode=445289

1.01 F VS2 H&A AGS0 A Cut Above SuperIdeal $7245 1.8 HCA EX

Have fun!
The online reports and stats are always fun to see.
 

NLUV

Rough_Rock
Joined
Apr 22, 2003
Messages
16
----------------
On 4/24/2003 5
8:50 PM Mara wrote:

Just out of curiosity, why are you considering stones that are VVS? These are going to be marked up over stones that are VS and your eye cannot see inclusions at VS OR VVS, so in my mind it's just like you are throwing extra money at the vendor for no reason. The F may be that you want colorless, but many a person has a G (that would be me) for much cheaper and don't notice a difference between the E/F/G. My coworker has an E and I put it against mine and not only does my stone look better and brighter, but you cannot see one hint of color difference. She paid way more for her 'quality, colorless' stone too.
----------------
I appreciate the note but I've already set the standard by buying her a F/VS1 .3 C ring a couple of years ago so I definitely want this to out-shine and out-class the last one. Other than sheer bragging rights the difference is worth the extra money to me.
 

MikeC

Rough_Rock
Joined
Apr 3, 2003
Messages
17
----------------
On 4/24/2003 5:47:31 PM NLUV wrote:



----------------
On 4/24/2003 5
8:50 PM Mara wrote:

Just out of curiosity, why are you considering stones that are VVS? These are going to be marked up over stones that are VS and your eye cannot see inclusions at VS OR VVS, so in my mind it's just like you are throwing extra money at the vendor for no reason. The F may be that you want colorless, but many a person has a G (that would be me) for much cheaper and don't notice a difference between the E/F/G. My coworker has an E and I put it against mine and not only does my stone look better and brighter, but you cannot see one hint of color difference. She paid way more for her 'quality, colorless' stone too.
----------------
I appreciate the note but I've already set the standard by buying her a F/VS1 .3 C ring a couple of years ago so I definitely want this to out-shine and out-class the last one. Other than sheer bragging rights the difference is worth the extra money to me.


----------------
Buying a stone with a better clarity and color rating wiill not make it out shine the one you have now. You will get all of your brilliance and fire from the cut. The diamond I bought my fiance has a color rating of H but it out shines my sister's E colored stone in every way. I am by no means an expert, but I think you will hear the same thing from most of the people on here.
Mike
 

Mara

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Oct 30, 2002
Messages
31,003
MikeC is right...the shine, sparkle, fire rainbows etc are all from the cut of the stone, not color or clarity. You can have a D IF and if it is not cut correctly, its worth nothing against a well cut stone. Well maybe its worth something to the person who will pay to have a D IF, but it wont be a beautiful stone nor will it be worth having (unless you have it recut!!).

Outshine and outclass her original .30 F VS1 with another F VS1 that is 1.0ctw and a super ideal cut or TRUE Hearts and Arrows--branded or unbranded doesn't matter. If you read a little more on this site, you will notice that many of the people on here are huge cut geeks...we like to play with and look at the numbers, the reports, the closeup images, etc.

You may not want to get that in-depth, and you may be saving yourself a bit of sanity if that is the case...however don't be average Joe consumer who just goes in to buy the E VVS1 and drops extra money just because. Do your research, your homework and determine what is more important. A colorless vvs stone that has a fair cut, or a colorless or near colorless VS stone that outshines 99% of the other stones you will see in stores?

 

Mara

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Oct 30, 2002
Messages
31,003
MikeC is right...the shine, sparkle, fire rainbows etc are all from the cut of the stone, not color or clarity. You can have a D IF and if it is not cut correctly, its worth nothing against a well cut stone. Well maybe its worth something to the person who will pay to have a D IF, but it wont be a beautiful stone nor will it be worth having (unless you have it recut!!).

Outshine and outclass her original .30 F VS1 with another F VS1 that is 1.0ctw and a super ideal cut or TRUE Hearts and Arrows--branded or unbranded doesn't matter. If you read a little more on this site, you will notice that many of the people on here are huge cut geeks...we like to play with and look at the numbers, the reports, the closeup images, etc.

You may not want to get that in-depth, and you may be saving yourself a bit of sanity if that is the case...however don't be average Joe consumer who just goes in to buy the E VVS1 and drops extra money just because. Do your research, your homework and determine what is more important. A colorless vvs stone that has a fair cut, or a colorless or near colorless VS stone that outshines 99% of the other stones you will see in stores?

 

NLUV

Rough_Rock
Joined
Apr 22, 2003
Messages
16
----------------
On 4/24/2003 4:39:25 PM Cut Nut wrote:

Modelled it in DiamCalc - not good

----------------
Thanks again Gary. I downloaded the DiamCalc trial software but it defaults on Marquise and won't let me select Brilliant. Can you please explain your findings. Thanks.
 

NLUV

Rough_Rock
Joined
Apr 22, 2003
Messages
16
I admit that since I started reading this board my quest for diamond knowledge has superceded my initial expectations and I'm constantly learning something new. I understand the trade-offs cut vs. clarity/color, but I'm hoping for the best of both worlds and this I understand will be the extra premium I will have to pay. I appreciate everyone's advice and hope not to burden you too much as my search continues.
 

NLUV

Rough_Rock
Joined
Apr 22, 2003
Messages
16
----------------
On 4/24/2003 6:37:56 PM Cut Nut wrote:

In an about 10 phone calls of 3 hours each!

You need to pay $280 for the full version.
Trust me
They are duds.
----------------
Understood. Thanks.
 

Richard Sherwood

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Sep 25, 2002
Messages
4,924
-----------
I appreciate the note but I've already set the standard by buying her
a F/VS1 .3 C ring a couple of years ago so I definitely want this to
out-shine and out-class the last one. Other than sheer bragging rights
the difference is worth the extra money to me.
-----------

NLUV, cut is King. It makes all the difference to the eye. Just stay somewhere close to the F/VS1, and go for a KILLER cut. A drop-dead cut. A traffic stopping cut. A blazing inferno cut. A stone that throws out every color of the rainbow. A stone that draws people from across the room.

Then you'll have some serious bragging rights about how you used cutting edge knowledge and technology in the selection of a diamond that ranks in the top 3% of all diamonds by cut.

Read the tutorials and browse the sites. You'll turn from a "rube", ripe for the plucking, into a sophisticated diamond buyer that knows more than the average jeweler.
 

fire&ice

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Jul 22, 2002
Messages
7,828
----------------

NLUV, cut is King. It makes all the difference to the eye. ----------------
And, may I add - IMHO carat weight is king also. A larger stone in the F/G VS2 range will command more attention (provide the cut is static).
 

NLUV

Rough_Rock
Joined
Apr 22, 2003
Messages
16
The jeweler called me this morning with the angles and %. Why do the angle and % results differ? Does this sound right? He also said that he received the data from the diamond seller, but the diamond will not include a report so how do I know these numbers are true other than getting the diamond appraised after the purchase.

Thanks,
NLUV

Based on the PERCENTAGE:

Depth % 62.5
Table % 56
Crown % 15.2
Pavilion % 43.5
Culet* % 0

Light Return: Excellent
Fire: Very Good
Scintillation: Very Good
Spread or diameter for weight: Very Good
Total Visual Performance: 2.2 - Very Good - Worth buying if the price is right


Now based on the ANGLES:

Depth % 62.5
Table % 56
Crown Angle % 35
Pavilion Angle % 41.2
Culet* % 0

Light Return: Very Good
Fire: Good
Scintillation: Good
Spread or diameter for weight: Very Good
Total Visual Performance: 3.6 - Very Good - Worth buying if the price is right
 

Mara

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Oct 30, 2002
Messages
31,003
Angles are more specific, percentages are a 'range'..which is why the results on HCA are better with %. Use the angles for a more accurate result.

Doubt the jeweler would give you angles that would have the diamond perform at a 3.6 on the HCA....I would have worried more if they were .2 EX or something.

I would suggest passing on this stone. As we noted in previous posts, you can get F VS or similar at same ctw with EXCELLENT cut, no questions about it, for the same price.

Good luck.
 
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