Please help - milky diamond, think we've been mislead

[OoohShiny]

Awesome post ^^^


That G SI1 with twinning wisps looks crystal clear on the video, and a bit of fluor will lift the colour in some lights!

 

[cam01]

We paid £1925 for the stone and £650 for the setting with an overall discount of £175

Thanks so much for all those links - would my jeweller be able to bring those diamonds in from James Allen though? Not sure how these things work so apologies if an ignorant question!

In terms of what I’m looking for, I’d really like it to be as similar in size to the original, and just generally a sparkly diamond! Clouds have made me a bit nervous so that makes me nervous but only because I don’t know how they’ll affect the light performance

 

[scarsmum]

The crown angle is a bit low and will tend to make the diamond look very flat on top. Without an Idealscope image or ASET images, its hard to know if the stone will perform. Did you like it? Did you look at in natural light (bright and indirect)? What about fluorescent light?

I’m not sure if I can send through a list of specs for them to bring in a diamond with the table size, depths, pav angles etc as recommended on PS? Not sure how practical this is in reality.
Why not? It will save them a lot of time and trouble if you give them specific parameters. Give them your lowest color and that you want SI1 eyeclean (if you have any extra funds, you might give them a top budget including those funds to open up options).

These are measurements to help you stay in ideal cut territory with a GIA excellent cut stone.
table: 54-58
depth: 60-62.3
crown angle: 34-35.0 (up to 35.5 crown angle can sometimes work with a 40.6 pav angle)
pavilion angle: 40.6-40.9 (sometimes 41.0 if the crown angle is close to 34)

You may also wish to get your own ASET and H&A scope to be able to look at these relative to performance.
https://datlas.com/ideal-scope-store/expert-scope-kit/
https://datlas.com/ideal-scope-store/aset-kit/

Guessing at budget, but these would be worth pursing (give the jeweler the GIA numbers). If no commentary, it is a great stone. I avoided clouds unless I could see it as a concentrated feature (not dispersed, but see a notes}. The price on JA does not mean that is what your jeweller will charge, but should give you a concrete baseline.

https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...-color-vvs2-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-3593269
https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...-color-vvs2-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-2867549
https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...-color-vvs2-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-3565710
https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...-color-vvs2-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-3593269 {video makes color look worse than reality, but lovely not clarity issues and good numbers}
https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...d-color-vs1-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-3759825 {great color and clarity. Solid numbers. Safe pick}
https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...g-color-si1-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-3694773 {lovely faceting, lively good number. Twining wisps need to be reviewed for impact on performance, but I don't seen any evidence of them causing it}
https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...e-color-si2-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-3594319 {great numbers. feather runs between 5 and 6 oclock on the table edge, but took me a while on super-zoom to spot. Great option}
https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...f-color-si1-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-3593374
https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...rat-f-color-si1-clarity-ideal-cut-sku-3823982 {AGS0 F, great numbers. Inclusions on the girdle near 6'oclock. Love this one}
https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...e-color-si1-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-3510689 {inclusions around girdle would be partially covered with prongs. Have a look at the table and decide if you would be bothered by the crystals}

There are more if none of these suit or are available.

@rockysalamander James Allen diamonds aren’t available on the market are they?

 

[OoohShiny]

We paid £1925 for the stone and £650 for the setting with an overall discount of £175

Thanks so much for all those links - would my jeweller be able to bring those diamonds in from James Allen though? Not sure how these things work so apologies if an ignorant question!

It could be worth asking the jeweller if it would be possible to purchase a stone from a website at retail price as a replacement.

e.g. You identify a stone you want on HPD, WF, BGD, JA, etc. They bring it in (buy it). They swap it in as the replacement stone. You allow them, say, £100 as their profit on the stone they buy. You are happy, they make a (probably much smaller ) profit on the stone, it's win-win.

If you applied a 5% profit margin to the stone for the jeweller, according to my rough calculations...:
£1925 * 0.95 = £1828 left for the stone, £100ish profit for the jeweller.
£1828 / 1.2 (the VAT charged in importing loose stones) = £1524
£1524 * 1.3 (rough GBP:USD exchange rate) = US$1981 you could spend on the stone.

Looking at HPD, for that budget you could get:

0.55 I VS1
https://www.hpdiamonds.com/en-us/diamonddetail/HPD8832

0.54 H SI1
https://www.hpdiamonds.com/en-us/diamonddetail/HPD9278

0.51 E SI1 (a smidge over budget)
https://www.hpdiamonds.com/en-us/diamonddetail/HPD9131

0.45 E VS1
https://www.hpdiamonds.com/en-us/diamonddetail/HPD9756

The benefits of them being AGS graded and laser-inscribed means you could inspect it in store before walking out with it, to make sure the AGS number (or GIA number if you go that route) inscribed on the girdle matches what you have requested.


If they don't want to buy in a third party stone at full price, you could ask if they will refund the stone, let you buy and bring in a third party stone, and then set it for a fee (which you'd need to ask for and get in writing so they couldn't claim later you made the figure up ). They still get some profit on the short time it takes to swap out a stone, you are happy, it's win-win. (The same checking procedure applies, of course.)

Personally I think they will refuse to do either of the above, but we can help pick out GIA stones from worldwide inventory

 

[Alexiszoe]

I think there's a higher chance of them being willing to bring in diamonds that James Allen or Blue Nile has since it is virtual inventory i.e. no jeweler owns the stone, rather it is a database of diamonds from different cutters and dealers who cuts the diamonds and lists it available for sale directly to jewelers on the backend. Jewelers in turn put in their own mark up and list them on their website e.g. most of the diamonds you see on James Allen are virtual inventory where the prices already includes their own mark up. Same thing for other online vendors, unless it is their in house premium brand - meaning they own the stone.

Having your jeweler get stones directly from virtual inventory (i.e. they get it direct from dealers) means they are getting the wholesale price, add in their own mark up and sell to you. Their profit is going to be better than buying a stone at retail price from say, hpd (who cuts and owns all of their diamonds), which makes it easier for you to negotiate as well.

See if they are open to bringing stones in from virtual inventory, which makes it easier for PSers to help you find something lovely.

 

[rockysalamander]

I think there's a higher chance of them being willing to bring in diamonds that James Allen or Blue Nile has since it is virtual inventory i.e. no jeweler owns the stone, rather it is a database of diamonds from different cutters and dealers who cuts the diamonds and lists it available for sale directly to jewelers on the backend. Jewelers in turn put in their own mark up and list them on their website e.g. most of the diamonds you see on James Allen are virtual inventory where the prices already includes their own mark up. Same thing for other online vendors, unless it is their in house premium brand - meaning they own the stone.

Having your jeweler get stones directly from virtual inventory (i.e. they get it direct from dealers) means they are getting the wholesale price, add in their own mark up and sell to you. Their profit is going to be better than buying a stone at retail price from say, hpd (who cuts and owns all of their diamonds), which makes it easier for you to negotiate as well.

See if they are open to bringing stones in from virtual inventory, which makes it easier for PSers to help you find something lovely.

Exactly! A few of the stones I posted are Canadian. You might ask if they can acquire Canadian diamonds at a better rate.

 

[cam01]

@OoohShiny I’m not sure where they bring the diamonds in from but I don’t think they’d bring something in internationally at this late stage - they did a search on the computer for something similar to my current diamond and said they can bring it in as it’s essentially on loan. I’m assuming it was from somewhere in the UK. I think I’ve been really lucky that they were understanding and willing to swap it at no additional charge to me, so long as it’s not a lot more expensive.

Is it possible to view the diamonds available in the UK market, and could choose from that list within the PS recommendations? I will ask them if they’re willing to bring in a diamond from say James Allen or Blue Nile, alternatively send them the specs of the diamond in line with the PS recommendations

 

[Snowdrop13]

There is a Crafted by Infinity dealer in London, don’t know if it helps to know that or not!

http://www.craftedbyinfinity.com/web/locations-europe/

 

[rockysalamander]

In very broad terms...retailers buy diamonds from a database (or 10) of cut diamonds constantly being populated (and subtracted from by sales) from wholesalers and aggregators. With the exception of JA's TrueHearts, the vast majority of the rest are either at a distribution point (which often seems to be New York) or overseas. So, there is no reason that your jeweler cannot look on "his" source database (which should be significantly similar to JA) by GIA number to see if he can "call" any of the stones. If this jeweler is one of many in a chain, he may be limiting his search to what those stores have in stock -- which would be highly limiting. So, I'd go with the list of GIA stones and the PS recommendations and see what they can find. I would specify that florescence is strong, medium, faint or none. They should be able to ask the vendor of the diamond to review the stones for impact from florescence (which is very rare, but worth asking).

 

[OoohShiny]

There is a Crafted by Infinity dealer in London, don’t know if it helps to know that or not!

http://www.craftedbyinfinity.com/web/locations-europe/

I think there are two CBI dealers in the UK now - one in Stratford and one elsewhere - search for posts by @Winks_Elf and the details should come up!

I think that listing on the website is therefore wrong - @Paul-Antwerp might be able to arrange its update if it is

 

[OoohShiny]

I would specify that florescence is strong, medium, faint or none. They should be able to ask the vendor of the diamond to review the stones for impact from florescence (which is very rare, but worth asking).

Given their BS around how clouds are good, I don't think I'd trust anything the shop said from this point forward - I'm sure they will rubbish fluor as a terrible thing!

 

[cam01]

The crown angle is a bit low and will tend to make the diamond look very flat on top. Without an Idealscope image or ASET images, its hard to know if the stone will perform. Did you like it? Did you look at in natural light (bright and indirect)? What about fluorescent light?

I’m not sure if I can send through a list of specs for them to bring in a diamond with the table size, depths, pav angles etc as recommended on PS? Not sure how practical this is in reality.
Why not? It will save them a lot of time and trouble if you give them specific parameters. Give them your lowest color and that you want SI1 eyeclean (if you have any extra funds, you might give them a top budget including those funds to open up options).

These are measurements to help you stay in ideal cut territory with a GIA excellent cut stone.
table: 54-58
depth: 60-62.3
crown angle: 34-35.0 (up to 35.5 crown angle can sometimes work with a 40.6 pav angle)
pavilion angle: 40.6-40.9 (sometimes 41.0 if the crown angle is close to 34)

You may also wish to get your own ASET and H&A scope to be able to look at these relative to performance.
https://datlas.com/ideal-scope-store/expert-scope-kit/
https://datlas.com/ideal-scope-store/aset-kit/

Guessing at budget, but these would be worth pursing (give the jeweler the GIA numbers). If no commentary, it is a great stone. I avoided clouds unless I could see it as a concentrated feature (not dispersed, but see a notes}. The price on JA does not mean that is what your jeweller will charge, but should give you a concrete baseline.

https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...-color-vvs2-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-3593269
https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...-color-vvs2-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-2867549
https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...-color-vvs2-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-3565710
https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...-color-vvs2-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-3593269 {video makes color look worse than reality, but lovely not clarity issues and good numbers}
https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...d-color-vs1-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-3759825 {great color and clarity. Solid numbers. Safe pick}
https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...g-color-si1-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-3694773 {lovely faceting, lively good number. Twining wisps need to be reviewed for impact on performance, but I don't seen any evidence of them causing it}
https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...e-color-si2-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-3594319 {great numbers. feather runs between 5 and 6 oclock on the table edge, but took me a while on super-zoom to spot. Great option}
https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...f-color-si1-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-3593374
https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...rat-f-color-si1-clarity-ideal-cut-sku-3823982 {AGS0 F, great numbers. Inclusions on the girdle near 6'oclock. Love this one}
https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...e-color-si1-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-3510689 {inclusions around girdle would be partially covered with prongs. Have a look at the table and decide if you would be bothered by the crystals}

There are more if none of these suit or are available.

Thank you so much for all of these. They all look beautiful. Based on the rough calcs kindly posted in the thread I think I could bump up the budget to $1981 roughly for the stone, on the assumption my jeweller can source the GIA numbers provided

What is people’s opinions on the below stones:
Alternatively is there any you’d recommend instead? In terms of inclusions I find it quite a mindfield choosing the best stone in terms of inclusions.

Hoping for around 0.58(ish) carats and not below 0.5

https://www.jamesallen.com/mobile/l...g-color-si1-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-3563471

https://www.jamesallen.com/mobile/l...h-color-vs2-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-3752800

https://www.jamesallen.com/mobile/l...h-color-vs2-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-3881722

https://www.jamesallen.com/mobile/l...f-color-si1-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-3556293 (Cloud)

Thank you so much

 

[OoohShiny]

Make sure to check out the GBP:USD exchange rate before you (or the store) buy anything from overseas - I believe that both Visa and Mastercard (and PayPal) publish their exchange rates, which are a more accurate reflection of consumer exchange rates than the market rates on xe.com or similar.

 

[rockysalamander]

If you will be using the same setting, but make sure the size will fit (or it is a simple enough head to be swapped for a bigger stone}

https://www.jamesallen.com/mobile/l...g-color-si1-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-3563471
{crown angle too high at 36. I would eliminate}

https://www.jamesallen.com/mobile/l...h-color-vs2-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-3752800
{I like this quite a bit. Ask for an IS if you want to buy directly from JA}

https://www.jamesallen.com/mobile/l...h-color-vs2-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-3881722
{I like this quite a bit. Ask for an IS if you want to buy directly from JA}

https://www.jamesallen.com/mobile/l...f-color-si1-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-3556293 (Cloud)
{clouds is at 2'ocklock on the table edge. I worry about this one and would eliminate.}

I'd also recommend these.Top of your budget, but both have great angles an no clarity worries. Nice light movement in both..
https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...-color-vvs1-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-3666961
https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...f-color-vs2-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-3406349

 

[mrs-b]

https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...h-color-vs2-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-3752800

I second @rockysalamander 's suggestion of this stone - it's a beauty. I'd buy it in a heartbeat were I looking for myself.

As everyone here has mentioned - the cloudiness in your stone is very obvious - even via this medium. I had a stone very like what you're describing - only it was an SI1. Lovely clean stone...until it was tilted in a certain angle, and then it was like..."What the heck...?!" I switched it out after 4 weeks of trying to live with it.

I like the size of your stone on your hand - very elegant! - so I think staying in that range is a great idea. H/VS2 is a beautiful combination of color/clarity specs - and in a smaller stone will look awesome; a G really isn't necessary to have a very white looking stone. I *would*, however, try to improve on the cut specs of the stone you bought - and the diamond linked above definitely does that; seeing it in real life, you'll notice the difference immediately.

I'm one of the many advocates on this site of daily ring cleaning. If it has a diamond in it - whatever it is - a daily cleaning is your very best friend! So work out how to clean your ring/s and do it regularly. (earrings, too, if you're lucky enough to have diamond earrings!)

Be willing to push a bit to get a ring that thrills you every time you look at it. Clean, white, nice size - and GREAT light return - will make you proud of your ring every day of your life, so it's worth spending the money and making the effort to get something special.

Again - look at the stone rocky linked above - it's killer.

And good luck!

 

[bmfang]

The stones that rocky has selected above look good. All the best with your search OP!

 

[ChristineRose]

If you want to minimize hassle, you could ask them to source you a true hearts & arrows (preferably branded) in G-H and VV2-SI1. That's will pretty much guarantee you something nice and makes it simple for them. I imagine they are anxious to get this over with. The downside is that you will end up with a smaller stone than the James Allen stones suggested above.

The dealer may or may not be able to get stones from the sources used by James Allen. James Allen has multiple sources for one thing. But what's more to the point, is not all sources are equal. The dealer gets the highest markup selling you a stone they already own. If they get a source from another dealer they will have to split the profit and there's no telling exactly how all that will translate into price and availability.

 

[cam01]

Hi everyone, I’ve got a diamond on hold with the below specs and going to view it in store in a few days time
GIA ex cut, sym, polish
Depth: 61.7
Table: 55
Crown Angle: 35
Pav Angle: 40.6
F VS2 0.55 carat
Inclusion: crystal (no plot available on dossier)

I’ve been told the crystal, although slightly off centre, is not black. Scores 0.8HCA

My question is what, if anything do I need to look out for, is a crystal in the centre of the table detrimental to the diamond? I’m going to view in person with microscope but am no good at seeing inclusions under the loupe or naked eye. My thoughts is it’ll be a huge step up in terms of quality than what I have

Thank you all so much for your help!

 

[ChristineRose]

I’ve been told the crystal, although slightly off centre, is not black. Scores 0.8HCA

My question is what, if anything do I need to look out for, is a crystal in the centre of the table detrimental to the diamond? I’m going to view in person with microscope but am no good at seeing inclusions under the loupe or naked eye. My thoughts is it’ll be a huge step up in terms of quality than what I have

Thank you all so much for your help!

Nothing is impossible but it's unlikely to be an issue in a VS2. If a person with good eyesight cannot see the inclusion under a loupe no one will see it when it's in the ring. You can always flag down some random customers and ask them if they can see the crystal, first without and then with a loupe.

Scoring well on the HCA doesn't guarantee a good diamond. The HCA just doesn't include all 57 facets. The GIA excellent is also a good sign. Use an Idealscope if possible, or an H&A viewer. Be sure to view it in every possible light. If they have a branded ideal H&A, ask if you can see them side by side.

Good luck! It looks like they are trying hard to help you out.

 

[OoohShiny]

It sounds like good progress

As above, make sure to check it out away from the twinkly store lights!

 

[John P]

I think there are two CBI dealers in the UK now - one in Stratford and one elsewhere -

I was alerted to this post: Well spotted, OoohShiny. Amended on that page now, as well as on HP Diamonds' geolocator. Thank you for the catch.

CBI: http://www.craftedbyinfinity.com/web/locations-europe/
HPD: https://www.hpdiamonds.com/en-us/diamonds/diamonds-city

 

[OoohShiny]

I was alerted to this post: Well spotted, OoohShiny. Amended on that page now, as well as on HP Diamonds' geolocator. Thank you for the catch.

CBI: http://www.craftedbyinfinity.com/web/locations-europe/
HPD: https://www.hpdiamonds.com/en-us/diamonds/diamonds-city

Glad to be of service

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

I personally think there should be a class action against GIA by all the people who have been misled by GIA over clouds.
They could easily say 'Cloudy' or any other common language term. GIA claim to ensure public trust in gems and jewelry - I consider the way they treat Clouds to be a breach of the first section of their stated "GIA’s Corporate Social Responsibility Principles" "Ensuring the Public Trust"
"A nonprofit institute, GIA’s mission is to ensure the public trust in gems and jewelry by upholding the highest standards of integrity, academics, science, and professionalism through education, research, laboratory services, and instrument development."

 

[cam01]

I decided to go with the F VS2 stone with HCA of 0.8

They did say that they could source the diamonds listed (from James Allen) from the overseas markets but usually full payment would need to be made and they wouldn’t recommend buying “blind” - I didn’t pursue this as the diamond they’d bring in would be final.

The inclusion in the F VS2 was a crystal with a black outline but I couldn’t see it with my naked eyes, only under the microscope. I know that inclusion isn’t ideal but there was no comparison between my cloudy diamond and the replacement so it’s a huge step up. I asked to look at it with an Idealscope and was given a Hearts and Arrows viewer, and told that the foil inside was just blue instead of red when I queried it. Reading about this afterwards it seems that an Idealscope would indicate light performance, Hearts and Arrows viewer does not.

At this point the whole experience has left a bit of a bitter taste in my mouth and just relieved that I was able to switch it and huge lesson learned, we should have bought the diamond online in the first place!

Thanks so much for all your help, ring will be ready in a week or so. And Merry Christmas!

 

[OoohShiny]

I decided to go with the F VS2 stone with HCA of 0.8

They did say that they could source the diamonds listed (from James Allen) from the overseas markets but usually full payment would need to be made and they wouldn’t recommend buying “blind” - I didn’t pursue this as the diamond they’d bring in would be final.

The inclusion in the F VS2 was a crystal with a black outline but I couldn’t see it with my naked eyes, only under the microscope. I know that inclusion isn’t ideal but there was no comparison between my cloudy diamond and the replacement so it’s a huge step up. I asked to look at it with an Idealscope and was given a Hearts and Arrows viewer, and told that the foil inside was just blue instead of red when I queried it. Reading about this afterwards it seems that an Idealscope would indicate light performance, Hearts and Arrows viewer does not.

At this point the whole experience has left a bit of a bitter taste in my mouth and just relieved that I was able to switch it and huge lesson learned, we should have bought the diamond online in the first place!

Thanks so much for all your help, ring will be ready in a week or so. And Merry Christmas!

That's a good result, congratulations!

Post some pics when it's all finished

 

[yssie]

Reported.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Yes SI diamond will never sparkle like VS1 and VVS1 and Flawless why they are cheaper and you must look around. Your diamond have triple excellent which is great it should have the fire from the facet but it’s not shiny because it’s not clear and included. Not all diamonds are the same to learn more check my Instagram. Shahzadeh_sereen_flawless
I only deal with flawless diamonds and super sparkly ones

Sereen welcome to PS.
Firstly you have broken rules - you must register as trade. You must not promote goods. As trade your advice should be general and not specific to individual merchants or their diamonds.
The general advice you offered will get you in lots of trouble too - because many non trade people here know how to pick SI diamonds that have top transparency.

Finally have you read G&G's last article on the method they devised to grade transparency (which BTW I have seen milky Flawless and VVS diamonds with un noted internal graining).

Measurement and Characterization of the Effects of Blue Fluorescence on Diamond Appearance | Gems & Gemology

Using customized, image-based measurement systems to quantify the effect of fluorescence on the color, brightness, and transparency of gem diamonds viewed in both face-up and table-down orientations.

www.gia.edu

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Same as sapphire they never sparkle if they have inclusion why they heat them. This one is Unheated untreated and sparkle because it’s flawless. Inclusion take away from the spark and make it dull. That is the reason Argyle diamonds are very expensive they all sparkle crazy.

Wrong again. Kashmir type sapphires have clouds that make them blue on blue

 

[lovedogs]

Ignore and report