Please Evaluate This Rough for Me

[iLander]

Asking all the PS experts (including faceters) will this cut down to an 8mm round?

Size is 11 x 10 x 7.5, 8.87 carats, rubelite

What kind of quality do you think will be in the final stone?

Is THIS the bubblegum ring?

 

[Jim Rentfrow]

I think it might be too dark. Rough usually darkens when it is cut so if it is dark when its in the rough it is probably going to be a dark stone. The shape of the rough is more suited for a rectangle rather than a round as well. Plus the skin on the stone makes it hard to see the clarity. Rough is rarely judged off of a photo. Judging gemstones by a photo is hard, judging rough by a photo is usually impossible.

 

[Michael_E]

The backlit images are not going to give you a good indication of color, since the light path is different and shorter than it would be in a cut stone. The picture of the stone on the white paper is much more indicative of the final color, though it would undoubtedly be much brighter when finished. As for clarity, there's just no way to tell from a picture. You could take a small glass vial and submerge the stone in mineral oil, to remove some of the surface effects and give you a better idea of what the finished clarity may be. It's hard to find perfectly clean rubellite and so if this has minor inclusions and they don't bother you, then it may work out well. It should cut to an 8mm round easily...unless there are some pits or surface irregularities which would cause one to cut the stone smaller, There's only one way to find out for sure about any of this, (even with the stone in hand), and that's to cut it. What's the cost and how do you feel about taking a chance?

My GUESS is that the end color will be like the little bright flashes in the center picture and that if the stone is clear enough that it will turn out rather nicely.

 

[chrono]

I don’t think this will be a good candidate. First off, the shape is more suited to a rectangular stone, so there will be more wasted rough, which means a smaller stone when you are done. In the end, your nearly 8 ct rough might or might not end up as an 8 mm round. I’m not good at judging rough material, plus lighting is so important in viewing the inside colour.

 

[lelser]

Something looks unusual about the surface, and I cannot see the interior well enough to judge it but it looks a bit included.

 

[iLander]

Is $88 a reasonable price for it? I don't know anything about rough and you guys are really helping me, thank you so much.

 

[LD]

Can you see obvious inclusions? Rubellite is typically included and to get an 8mm round with a good clarity would need good quality rough. I'm absolutely no judge (leave that to the experts!) but I would be concerned about the clarity and the final colour.

 

[iLander]

Can you see obvious inclusions? Rubellite is typically included and to get an 8mm round with a good clarity would need good quality rough. I'm absolutely no judge (leave that to the experts!) but I would be concerned about the clarity and the final colour.

Hi LD,

I don't actually have it in hand, the photos are vendor photos.

Here's what the vendor says: "While the rough is a rich red in incandescent light, it does shift to pinkish purple in fluorescent. Typical of Nigerian material but it doesn’t have a brown secondary. If I remember correctly you are looking for a stone that holds it’s red color in all conditions. I think only a spinel or possibly a ruby can do that and still be hard enough for a ring stone.

I have looked at the clarity and it is very good. There may be minute inclusions, it is difficult to tell, but I am pretty sure it will cut eye clean. Also I am pretty sure it could be cut to an 8 mm round by an experienced cutter but there would be a lot of waste. It is more suited for a rectangular cut like a cushion.

I have placed the stone on hold until I hear back from you. It’s a great piece of rough for the price but I am not sure if it would meet your requirements."

I have learned that my original "pure red" hunt may not ever work out for me, so is this a good second choice?

 

[LD]

Can you see obvious inclusions? Rubellite is typically included and to get an 8mm round with a good clarity would need good quality rough. I'm absolutely no judge (leave that to the experts!) but I would be concerned about the clarity and the final colour.

Hi LD,

I don't actually have it in hand, the photos are vendor photos.

Aaaaaah I see! Well then, another question from a different angle ............... you mentioned "bubblegum"? To me bubblegum is bright neon pink. Is that what you're after? If so, then I'm not sure that Rubellite will be chewy enough for you! A fine Rubellite is (my definition ...... apologies to those who disagree) comparable to a fine Ruby BUT tending more to purple than pink. If it has too much pink then (again, this is my definition), it's a pink Tourmaline not a Rubellite.

I spent years buying and selling/returning Rubellite until I found my Prince! Met too many frogs on the way though!

 

[iLander]

Hi LD

By bubblegum, I mean the type of rings I used to get in bubblegum machines when I was a kid; a bright, gaudy (albeit plastic) stone set in a golden (pot metal) solitaire setting. I've been trying to reproduce one of these rings for the longest time, with a red stone, and I still haven't tracked down the right CS for it.

Do you think this rough would work for that? Or is it a frog?

 

[LD]

The mist is clearing now! I fully understand!

Well, based on your description of what you want, I'd say that Rubellite probably isn't the stone for you. It's not really bright or gaudy.

If you're looking for something really neon then how about a Mahenge Spinel? They can be exceptionally bright and a good one can look too good to be true! However, if you're after a big gem then this may be too costly.

The one that immediately sprung to mind is actually a "pink flamingo" topaz. One of my good friends adores the colour pink and I found one set in silver and gave it to her for her birthday. Let me see if I can find a piccie and I'll post it up. You'd be able to get a really big one for not alot of money I'd think - although of course that all depends on where you stand with treatments. Most gaudy pink topaz is coated so isn't going to last to be an heirloom unless you wrap it in cotton wool! However, for a fun, going out, "in yer face" ring it'd be perfect!

Off to look for piccies for you ...........

 

[LD]

Having trouble posting one of the photos but here's one. IRL this Topaz was electric hot pink! Does this qualify as a bubblegum ring?

 

[iLander]

OOoooohh! Pretty! I love the color! I'm hoping for something untreated, though . . . sorry . . . It is a BEAUTY though!

Does anybody think this rough will come out as bright as LD's sparkler above? Just hoping against hope on that one, I think.

 

[LD]

If that rough comes out the colour of that Topaz I'd be seriously amazed (sorry - I know you don't want to hear that). This is the more likely colour and much more a "normal" Rubellite colour:

 

[RockHugger]

Take some baby oil and put it in an empty gem jar. Then plop the rough into the baby oil. You will be able to see through the surface and see any internal inclusions. The baby oil bends the light away from your eye so you don't see the surface reflections.

You will also get a better idea of the color.

 

[lelser]

I don't mean to be a big old drag, but buying rough from a vendor photo in the hopes that someone can cut you a stone with the colour you want almost never works. It's not impossible, but I would not take the bet.

You'll spend $100 bucks for the rough with the shipping. Neither I nor most of the faceters I think do excellent work will cut someone else's rough, so you are limited in who you get. Say you spend another $100 for cutting, and throw on $20 for shipping. There are inexpensive faceters who might do this for $50 bucks, but I've seen some work from a few of these guys and would not send them my material. Now you've spent $220, and the odds are excellent that you won't have the stone you dreamed of.

There is also no faceter I know who will guarantee that the rough cuts. Stones break, and the faceter is not responsible for replacing it. So you may not have a stone at all.

If you want the experience of buying rough and having it cut for you, that's fine. If you want a particular colour - one you've been aiming for for a while now - then put the work out and look at some FINISHED stones.

It can be tough even for an experienced faceter to judge colour from rough on tourmaline. Tourmaline is dichroic, and the colours don't always mix the way you expect them to.

Cheers,

Lisa
www.lisaelser.com

 

[Michael_E]

One thing that people who have not cut tourmaline are not aware of is that tourmaline can have various internal and structural changes in the crystal which affect its color and cutting properties. If you look at the bottom and middle pictures closely you will see a subtle demarcation between what was at one time the rind of the crystal which is more orangey/brown on the lower half and the core which is more red/pink on the upper half, (the white line was added to show the junction area). Sometimes these layers are all part of the same growth and sometimes there is a junction is not too well bonded. What this means is that the place between the two layers may or may not fracture during cutting, AND that it is even more difficult to judge what the final color will be after cutting, since you're mixing more reddish with more orangey tones. If you aren't a cutter and you are buying rough you will want to get the opinion of an experienced cutter before you commit to buying the rough. You will also want to allow for the possibility that some stones can spontaneously fracture shortly after they've been cut, (blue tourmaline is notorious for this). If you're not the risk taking type, you may want to let the cutter take all the risk and source the rough as well.

 

[iLander]

I don't mean to be a big old drag, but buying rough from a vendor photo in the hopes that someone can cut you a stone with the colour you want almost never works. It's not impossible, but I would not take the bet.

You'll spend $100 bucks for the rough with the shipping. Neither I nor most of the faceters I think do excellent work will cut someone else's rough, so you are limited in who you get. Say you spend another $100 for cutting, and throw on $20 for shipping. There are inexpensive faceters who might do this for $50 bucks, but I've seen some work from a few of these guys and would not send them my material. Now you've spent $220, and the odds are excellent that you won't have the stone you dreamed of.

There is also no faceter I know who will guarantee that the rough cuts. Stones break, and the faceter is not responsible for replacing it. So you may not have a stone at all.

If you want the experience of buying rough and having it cut for you, that's fine. If you want a particular colour - one you've been aiming for for a while now - then put the work out and look at some FINISHED stones.

It can be tough even for an experienced faceter to judge colour from rough on tourmaline. Tourmaline is dichroic, and the colours don't always mix the way you expect them to.

Cheers,

Lisa
www.lisaelser.com

Hmmmm, kind of harsh all around, but there are a particular couple of things I object to:

Jerry Newman at Gemart (http://www.gemartservices.com/) would be the cutter and he is excellent, as many here on the forum can tell you.

The second point (I think you're trying to say) about putting the "word" out; thanks, but I have done that many times. Both to cutters and on different forums. I think there was another point in time, in a different forum, when you also said you wouldn't "cut that stone on spec for you". I'm still not asking you to.

 

[iLander]

If you're not the risk taking type, you may want to let the cutter take all the risk and source the rough as well.

I think this is an excellent point. I sent Jerry at Gemart a picture of the rough and he wasn't crazy about it either.

EVERYONE: I guess I was just hoping I had found the red stone for my bubble gum ring. The red color of the rough is really attractive.

I guess the bubble gum ring will continue to be my "Rosebud".

 

[Treenbean]

Hi
What is the criteria for the bubblegum ring?

 

[iLander]

I tried to find the original post, but I think it was eaten by the PS monster

It's a round, pure red glowy stone of around 8mm, that looks red all the time in all lights. It will be set like a diamond solitaire, just the stone itself, in a yellow gold setting. All for under $400.

I've been told ad infinitum that it's not possible to find this red without resorting to a synthetic, but I'd rather compromise the "in all lights" and use a natural stone with a (very) minor secondary color.

They say it can't be done . . . . I'm (finally after all these months) starting to think they're right. . .

. . . Rosebud . . . .gasp . . .

 

[gsellis]

A couple of others have commented. Based on the original pictures, I would not spend $10 a caret on that without a return guarantee. The stone does look like it will cut pinker on the C axis with a possible round, but... I see what I suspect are problems with micro cracks in the stone (like tourmaline does - what Michael said - and the side that shows the pink looks like the red/brown will split.) The verbage does not install confidence in this being a wonderful piece of rough, but more like lipstick on a pig (I buy a bunch of my play stones on eBay - I am getting to be a master at reading rough sales ... fertilizer). And like Lisa also noted, the color is a gamble with tourmaline.

 

[lelser]

I tried to find the original post, but I think it was eaten by the PS monster

It's a round, pure red glowy stone of around 8mm, that looks red all the time in all lights. It will be set like a diamond solitaire, just the stone itself, in a yellow gold setting. All for under $400.

I've been told ad infinitum that it's not possible to find this red without resorting to a synthetic, but I'd rather compromise the "in all lights" and use a natural stone with a (very) minor secondary color.

They say it can't be done . . . . I'm (finally after all these months) starting to think they're right. . .

. . . Rosebud . . . .gasp . . .

Progress is good.

 

[Gempassion]

Hi ilander,

I can't remember what your buget was for the gem but have you seen this orange/red garnet? It's a dark tone but it suits your dimmensions:

http://www.wildfishgems.com/inc/sdetail/13398

 

[iLander]

Hi ilander,

I can't remember what your buget was for the gem but have you seen this orange/red garnet? It's a dark tone but it suits your dimmensions:

http://www.wildfishgems.com/inc/sdetail/13398

Hi Gempassion,

Thanks for that, but Ed describes it as a typical almandine, which a little dark for my purpose. So far, I have returned an orangy-red spess, and a purply red garnet. I have decided against pinkish-red tourmaline. I think what I'm looking for is a freak of nature, the exception to it's species, like a truly red spess or a red tourmaline. I soldier on . . .

BTW: don't you think Ed would do better with a photo that shows him smiling? He seems to be a really nice guy, and I think his photo should reflect that. . . Just sayin' . . .

 

[chrono]

iLander,
I know you have decided against a pinkish red tourmaline but I saw this this morning and thought of your search. It doesn't look to be eye popping in saturation but with Barry's precision cutting, I expect it to have too brilliance and sparkle. It's also 7.5 mm, a round and within your budget.
http://www.acstones.com/productcart/pc/viewPrd.asp?idcategory=141&idproduct=3429

ETA
Oops, it said sale pending. If interested, you should contact Barry to see if he has more of this material.

 

[Treenbean]

You prolly got Barry's email too about the "pure reds garnets" that will be coming out this month! That's exciting the bubblegum ring may be there! If I remember a lot of those bubblegum machine rings were cabs too.

 

[iLander]

You prolly got Barry's email too about the "pure reds garnets" that will be coming out this month! That's exciting the bubblegum ring may be there! If I remember a lot of those bubblegum machine rings were cabs too.

I got that too!! I emailed him back about 20 seconds after I got it!

I liked the cab rings, too, they were awesome, cabs in a prong setting! How cool was that?

CHRONO: I was just going to ask Barry about that one when I got the email newsletter.

Thanks for looking out for me, both of you!

I also sent another email to Osiris Gems, and he responded that he has a bunch of pure red garnet, too!

OMG! They're both such excellent faceters, with such different unique styles, what should I do?

I guess whoever has the most medium of tone would be the best choice, since that seems to be another stumbling block. . .

Getting closer!!

 

[ForteKitty]

I'm sorry, I am the one who bought that from Barry last week.

But it's actually more magenta than red in most lighting.

 

[Barrett]

iLander, I know you have been looking for this perfect stone for a while now. You seem very passionate about it. Due to that I would most definitely up the anty on it. $88 dollars will not really cut it. I don't know what your price range is but I would go much higher. Save up ..say $500 or more. You could snag a sweet piece of facet rough that will suit you fine. Clean enough and large enough as well as close to a decent pure red as you can get for that much. Only reason i am saying this is you seem to have a real desire to nail the look you have in your mind. I would not mess with rough like this $88 one since it's a waste of your time. Spend the money, get the good good, and in the end you will be much happier. You don't want to spend $88 or $100 and get something finished that will disappoint. Have someone like Lisa or one of the other cutters source a stone for you. They have the knowledge and expertise to pick and choose and they can cut the stone for you. Works out real well since most cutters don't like cutting rough sourced from customers. Tuscon will be coming up in Febuary. Find a cutter or dealer who will be there..send them $500+++ to find the right stone for you. I am sure those Nigerian rubellites will be back again this year or some of the foreign dealers will have some good red spinel rough.