Part 2 of 3.8 cttw LGD studs search- how about these GCAL 8x stones through IDJ?

[Gemstonesrock]

Hi PSers,

Thanks for all your help on my LGD stud project for my upcoming 50th (yikes!) bday. My goal is 3.8 cttw (1.90 ct each ear), super ideal cut, D or E color, VS clarity stones. I am awaiting a gemologist evaluation/video of three potential HPHT ideal cut lab grown diamonds I purchased on Ritani's website. Ritani has yet to receive the stones from the cutter. Originally I ordered a pair of diamonds (1.90 EVS1 and 1.89 EVVS2) suggested by the ever-helpful @Kim N. Two days later a third stone (1.91 EVS1) appeared that better matched the proportions of the 1.90 EVS1 so I bought that one too. Links to all 3 below. The stones should be quite beautiful, although the 1.89 and 1.91 have a couple less-than-perfect arrows. I am assuming the 1.89 will be knocked out of consideration. The total price of the 1.90 and 1.91 stones, set in platinum with La Pousette backings, would come to $4,821.

1. https://www.ritani.com/products/1-9...m_source=1723624&utm_medium=affiliate&irgwc=1

2. https://www.ritani.com/products/1-9...-vs1-clarity-igi-lg555263044-sku-d-74nze5iq84

3. https://www.ritani.com/products/1-8...m_source=1723624&utm_medium=affiliate&irgwc=1

Here's where my story takes a turn, and I would love your thoughts. I am now strongly leaning towards a totally different route for my stud project, even before I have seen the Ritani stones. Last summer I viewed a GCAL 8x stone in person and just loved how it performed and found that it was as brilliant and fiery as my beloved CBIs. However, my online search on LGDs these past few weeks showed pricing on GCAL 8x stones to be above what I wanted to spend (a pair of studs with my parameters was going to run $7,300).

Today I called Yekutiel at ID Jewelry in New York as he's done a couple of lovely pieces for me. He quoted me a pair of LGD studs, set in platinum with La Pousette backings, using two GCAL 8x stones. One is a 1.88 ct E VS1 and the other is a 1.88 ct D VS2 (certs below)- the proportions are perfectly matched. The total all-inclusive price he quoted me is $5,200, just $379 more than the Ritani project. I was pleasantly surprised. I feel the assurance of super ideal performance, including crisp hearts and arrows, that comes with GCAL's 8x parameters will give me complete peace of mind that I have the best "forever" stones for my studs possible. Optimum performance is my highest priority. This slight premium over Ritani feels worth it to me- do you agree? Or am I over valuing GCAL 8X? Yekutiel is going to verify that the inclusions are no issue and whether there is a blue nuance. Thanks in advance for your thoughts, everyone! @DejaWiz @yssie @LLJsmom @sledge

 

[DejaWiz]

Definitely go GCAL 8X - neither have blue nuance and you're getting diamonds with verified and validated optical performance for just a small investment more...DO IT!

 

[Gemstonesrock]

Definitely go GCAL 8X - neither have blue nuance and you're getting diamonds with verified and validated optical performance for just a small investment more...DO IT!

YAY! Thanks so much for the feedback!

 

[Kim N]

I think the small premium for GCAL 8x is totally worth it. The E looks fantastic. To my eyes the D may be showing subtle blue nuance.

 

[Gemstonesrock]

I think the small premium for GCAL 8x is totally worth it. The E looks fantastic. To my eyes the D may be showing subtle blue nuance.

I think the small premium for GCAL 8x is totally worth it. The E looks fantastic. To my eyes the D may be showing subtle blue nuance.

Thanks Kim- I'll ask Yekutiel to check the D specifically re blue nuance!

 

[yssie]

My honest 2c.

Hard no from me on the 1.88 D GCAL. Painting is one of the most visible (and detrimental) artefacts to my eyes. Even not-super-severe painting. The two GCAL stones won’t have the same personalities in-person - the difference in edge contrast will be visible to someone who “sees” diamond nuance. Much more visible than slight improvements in optical symmetry.

Of the current selection I’d pair the 1.90 from Ritani with the 1.88 E GCAL.

 

[Gemstonesrock]

My honest 2c.

Hard no from me on the 1.88 D GCAL. Painting is one of the most visible artefacts to my eyes. Even not-super-severe painting. And not in a good way.

Of the current selection I’d pair the 1.90 from Ritani with the 1.88 E GCAL.

Interesting idea to pair the 1.90 EVS1 Ritani and the 1.89 GCAL- will consider this!

Painting and digging are concepts I only recently learned about, at a super high level. I am still not totally sure how painting presents itself to the casual observer? Could you explain to my ignorant self how does the painting shows itself in this particular stone? Is it those two dark triangular facets when you look at the stone straight on? I am surprised a stone could have painting and still make a GCAL 8x certification. Grrr.

 

[yssie]

PS rules prohibit tradepeople from commenting on specific stones from specific vendors.

 

[yssie]

Painting giveaway in green. One area is differently indexed (orange).

Removing this light escape at the edge of the stone yields reduced contrast at the edge of the stone. Less scintillation, less “life”. If you’re bezelling these stones the difference will be less visible.

 

[Gemstonesrock]

Painting giveaway in green. One area is differently indexed (orange).

Removing this light escape at the edge of the stone yields reduced contrast at the edge of the stone. Less scintillation, less “life”. If you’re bezelling these stones the difference will be less visible.

THANK YOU for this explanation- this is very helpful. Unfortunately I am NOT planning to bezel set the stones.

 

[Gemstonesrock]

PS rules prohibit tradepeople from commenting on specific stones from specific vendors.

Thx I deleted my request!

 

[LLJsmom]

I’m sorry I can’t be of more help. All things being equal I would go with what @yssie says because 1) I trust @yssie implicitly and also know how knowledgeable she is. 2). She chose my favorite of my two stones, which pretty much “looks” as “super ideal” as a non super ideal can. With that being said, I think the stones that IDJ found for you will Be very pretty. Whether you can tolerate the painting and digging is a different question.

 

[DejaWiz]

Have IDJ send you ASET scope images so you can get an easier point of reference than the complicated GCAL scope.

 

[sledge]

I created a GIF to show the stones back to back to better understand the effects of painting. However, if you want to dig a bit deeper, you may want to give this article a read.

Also, not bagging on the GCAL stones, but look at the zoomed version of the hearts image on the 1.88. It doesn't make it a bad stone, but if you are after H&A this wouldn't pass ACA or CBI standards. The 1.90 is similar. Maybe just a warning that what some call H&A may not be what others define them as.

Visible Effects of Painting & Digging on Superideal Diamonds

With grateful acknowledgment to John Pollard, Sergey Sivovolenko, AGSL and GIA Laboratories for valuable resources and input. Graphics produced with DiamCalc software by OctoNus. Note: This article pertains only to […]

www.pricescope.com

A Guide to Hearts and Arrows Super Ideal Cut Diamonds

Hearts and Arrows diamonds are cut with superior symmetry. Learn more about hearts and arrows diamonds and where to buy them at Whiteflash.

www.whiteflash.com

 

[sledge]

I might add, I do think there is some value in working with Yeukitel @ IDJ. I have done so in the past and it was a complete pleasure. He is a very patient person and if you mention you are from PS, he will understand you are particular with quality and help you attain it.

I've seen him pull off some miracles on "small" budgets. That word is relative, as many people tend to have champagne tastes on beer budgets regardless of the dollar amount. Anyhow, he is good at finding stuff others can't. Also, when he brings in stones he can do a full array of imaging to provide further buyer confidence.

 

[Gemstonesrock]

Have IDJ send you AET scope images so you can get an easier point of reference than the complicated GCAL scope.

Yes that's a great idea- I will ask for that!

 

[Gemstonesrock]

I might add, I do think there is some value in working with Yeukitel @ IDJ. I have done so in the past and it was a complete pleasure. He is a very patient person and if you mention you are from PS, he will understand you are particular with quality and help you attain it.

I've seen him pull off some miracles on "small" budgets. That word is relative, as many people tend to have champagne tastes on beer budgets regardless of the dollar amount. Anyhow, he is good at finding stuff others can't. Also, when he brings in stones he can do a full array of imaging to provide further buyer confidence.

Thanks so much for the perspective. I do enjoy working with him. And you're right, his ability to provide imaging will help immensely.

 

[Gemstonesrock]

I created a GIF to show the stones back to back to better understand the effects of painting. However, if you want to dig a bit deeper, you may want to give this article a read.

Also, not bagging on the GCAL stones, but look at the zoomed version of the hearts image on the 1.88. It doesn't make it a bad stone, but if you are after H&A this wouldn't pass ACA or CBI standards. The 1.90 is similar. Maybe just a warning that what some call H&A may not be what others define them as.

Visible Effects of Painting & Digging on Superideal Diamonds

With grateful acknowledgment to John Pollard, Sergey Sivovolenko, AGSL and GIA Laboratories for valuable resources and input. Graphics produced with DiamCalc software by OctoNus. Note: This article pertains only to […]

www.pricescope.com

A Guide to Hearts and Arrows Super Ideal Cut Diamonds

Hearts and Arrows diamonds are cut with superior symmetry. Learn more about hearts and arrows diamonds and where to buy them at Whiteflash.

www.whiteflash.com

This is very informative. I DID notice the clefts in the hearts on the GCAL stones. Do you think it affects performance or just a lil sloppy?

 

[Kim N]

Painting giveaway in green. One area is differently indexed (orange).

Removing this light escape at the edge of the stone yields reduced contrast at the edge of the stone. Less scintillation, less “life”. If you’re bezelling these stones the difference will be less visible.

Is this always a bad thing? EightStar diamonds (and previously one of Whiteflash's lines of ACAs) had crown-only painting to improve brightness. I own one of the ones by Whiteflash and still love it.

 

[sledge]

This is very informative. I DID notice the clefts in the hearts on the GCAL stones. Do you think it affects performance or just a lil sloppy?

True H&A stones align virtual facets in 3D so that maximum performance is achieved. So in that sense, yes, a true H&A stone would outperform one that is not.

But you have to look at the broader picture -- does the difference have a meaningful effect to the naked eye? Probably not for most folks. But you currently own a beautiful CBI and I'm sure you've spent countless hours admiring and scrutinizing it so you have a strong point of reference for performance expectation.

Either way I think it's worth a gamble. Maybe have Yeukitel ship you one loose so you can compare against your CBI with your eyes in your home with lighting and environment you are used to seeing daily. If you don't like it, send it back and shoot for better precision.

IMO, that is your real test anyhow. You basically want lab CBI's on your ears. Nothing wrong with that, and I hope these fulfill that dream.

 

[yssie]

Is this always a bad thing? EightStar diamonds (and previously one of Whiteflash's lines of ACAs) had crown-only painting to improve brightness. I own one of the ones by Whiteflash and still love it.

You’ve got one of WF’s painted ACAs??

I actually remember when it became a #thing to precision cut and paint - it was back in the early days of the cut wars and I think there were… Two kind-of-competing philosophies at that time
A) Brighter is better, more light return is better
B) Scintillation creates vitality

The past fifteen/twenty years the industry has converged on (B) and it isn’t anything any brand is doing today as far as I’m aware. I personally dislike it and TBH all people I know personally who’ve seen any in-person do as well. But not everyone obviously!! I don’t know why you’d bother with a lab stone, it’s not like anyone’s trying to preserve every iota of rough possible - I suspect it wasn’t intentional. I agree with Sledge that the claim of H&A is suspect anyway - maybe there are just vagaries in cutting labs that folks cutting mined rough are much more careful with, just because of the value of the material..?


In any case - IMO painting tends to have a much more visible effect than small details of optical symmetry, so that’s why I wouldn’t choose one with and one without as a mated pair for someone who’s looking for excellence and who owns precision-cut mined stones. Might be just fine for someone who doesn’t care as much though!

 

[DejaWiz]

I'm just going to add: we can nitpick these GCAL 8X to death, but at the end of the day, both will still blow the doors off of a majority of available diamonds...in either LGD or EGD flavor.

 

[yssie]

I'm just going to add: we can nitpick these GCAL 8X to death, but at the end of the day, both will still blow the doors off of a majority of available diamonds...in either LGD or EGD flavor.

100%. I think some of us assumed she was at the top of the pickiness scale based on the original post’s reference to superideal performance.

Nothing outright wrong with any of the selections, objectively. And if two GCALs is mind clean, then mind clean matters!! I still wouldn’t choose or recommend that particular stone though, unless OP can see them in-person without monetary commitment - because most people who see diamond nuance (and most who don’t) just don’t care for painted stones IRL. Perhaps IDJ can find an alternative.

 

[sledge]

@yssie and @Kim N, WF still has their "near miss" line called Expert Select. Here are just a few that popped up quickly. Sounds like the 0.80 H/VS2 is painted similar to Kim's. The 1.021 F/VS2 looks to have a little digging to massage the knot. I haven't really analyzed the other stone.

Diamond comparison | Compare Diamonds to choose and buy the best one

Whiteflash gives you an excellent opportunity to compare diamonds to make a great deal. With diamond’s parameters provided, you can compare any detail.

www.whiteflash.com

What I found interesting is the 1.021 CG ASET didn't pick up the variation as the photographed ASET did.

For clarity, I'm not banging on these stones. Just using as reference.

 

[yssie]

What I found interesting is the 1.021 CG ASET didn't pick up the variation as the photographed ASET did.

I've seen this happen not-infrequently. The scanners definitely don't scan every part of the stone with complete fidelity.

Good reminder to always request actual images - still photos at least. ASET/IS are great if you can get 'em (granted, for rounds you don't actually need IS/ASET, but they're great for the insurance paperwork )

I'm personally pretty skeptical of most everything GCAL is doing and saying but the photos and videos they post for each 8x stone are bang on. Fantastic photography. And I can just imagine how much time and resources that must take so buckets of brownie points!!

 

[DejaWiz]

100%. I think some of us assumed she was at the top of the pickiness scale based on the original post’s reference to superideal performance.

Nothing outright wrong with any of the selections, objectively. And if two GCALs is mind clean, then mind clean matters!! I still wouldn’t choose or recommend that particular stone though, unless OP can see them in-person without monetary commitment - because most people who see diamond nuance (and most who don’t) just don’t care for painted stones IRL. Perhaps IDJ can find an alternative.

I agree...best to ask for a better GCAL 8X match first and see what's in IDJ's supply channels.

 

[sledge]

I'm just going to add: we can nitpick these GCAL 8X to death, but at the end of the day, both will still blow the doors off of a majority of available diamonds...in either LGD or EGD flavor.

Agree with you on the big picture level. But like @yssie, I think the OP is truly searching for CBI perfection in a lab diamond. The ones posted are really good, but they aren't to that level of true H&A perfection.

That's not necessarily bad. It just has to be understood and price has to be reflected properly. In other words, buying an 8 or 9 is okay but don't charge a 10 price.

 

[Kim N]

You’ve got one of WF’s painted ACAs??

I actually remember when it became a #thing to precision cut and paint - it was back in the early days of the cut wars and I think there were… Two kind-of-competing philosophies at that time
A) Brighter is better, more light return is better
B) Scintillation creates vitality

The past fifteen/twenty years the industry has converged on (B) and it isn’t anything any brand is doing today as far as I’m aware. I personally dislike it and TBH all people I know personally who’ve seen any in-person do as well. But not everyone obviously!! I don’t know why you’d bother with a lab stone, it’s not like anyone’s trying to preserve every iota of rough possible - I suspect it wasn’t intentional. I agree with Sledge that the claim of H&A is suspect anyway - maybe there are just vagaries in cutting labs that folks cutting mined rough are much more careful with, just because of the value of the material..?


In any case - IMO painting tends to have a much more visible effect than small details of optical symmetry, so that’s why I wouldn’t choose one with and one without as a mated pair for someone who’s looking for excellence and who owns precision-cut mined stones. Might be just fine for someone who doesn’t care as much though!

@yssie and @Kim N, WF still has their "near miss" line called Expert Select. Here are just a few that popped up quickly. Sounds like the 0.80 H/VS2 is painted similar to Kim's. The 1.021 F/VS2 looks to have a little digging to massage the knot. I haven't really analyzed the other stone.

Diamond comparison | Compare Diamonds to choose and buy the best one

Whiteflash gives you an excellent opportunity to compare diamonds to make a great deal. With diamond’s parameters provided, you can compare any detail.

www.whiteflash.com

What I found interesting is the 1.021 CG ASET didn't pick up the variation as the photographed ASET did.

For clarity, I'm not banging on these stones. Just using as reference.

Yep, mine is somewhat similar to the 0.80.

 

[Gemstonesrock]

True H&A stones align virtual facets in 3D so that maximum performance is achieved. So in that sense, yes, a true H&A stone would outperform one that is not.

But you have to look at the broader picture -- does the difference have a meaningful effect to the naked eye? Probably not for most folks. But you currently own a beautiful CBI and I'm sure you've spent countless hours admiring and scrutinizing it so you have a strong point of reference for performance expectation.

Either way I think it's worth a gamble. Maybe have Yeukitel ship you one loose so you can compare against your CBI with your eyes in your home with lighting and environment you are used to seeing daily. If you don't like it, send it back and shoot for better precision.

IMO, that is your real test anyhow. You basically want lab CBI's on your ears. Nothing wrong with that, and I hope these fulfill that dream.

@sledge and @yssie you are both correct, I am looking for lab CBI's (or quite close) for my studs.

 

[Gemstonesrock]

100%. I think some of us assumed she was at the top of the pickiness scale based on the original post’s reference to superideal performance.

Nothing outright wrong with any of the selections, objectively. And if two GCALs is mind clean, then mind clean matters!! I still wouldn’t choose or recommend that particular stone though, unless OP can see them in-person without monetary commitment - because most people who see diamond nuance (and most who don’t) just don’t care for painted stones IRL. Perhaps IDJ can find an alternative.

I'm going to ask Yekutiel if he can find a GCAL 8x alternative. You were right to assume I do want "lab CBI" stones, or quite close. I do still want to see the 1.88 DVS2 (and a a photographed ASET) as I'm curious how sensitive my own eyes are. This thread has really been so fascinating and informative- I love learning from this group!