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Paraiba or Tourmaline

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chrono

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Given the choice, would you take a original Brazilian paraiba stone or a neon non-copper bearing Afghan tourmaline cut by the renowned John Dyer?

Stats:
Paraiba: 1.25ct round, measures 7 mm and is a heated top windex blue. The catch is that it''s slightly sleepy. Passes as barely eye clean.
Neon tourmaline: 2.3 ct trilliant. measures 8 mm and totally not treated. Super sparkly and neon too but the glow cannot compare to a paraiba, of course. Loupe clean and the cutting is to die for!
 

marcy

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Paraiba.
 

Harriet

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Old mine Paraiba. But why is it sleepy? Don't expect a Paraiba to be eye-clean.
 

chrono

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Date: 4/17/2009 11:39:53 PM
Author: Harriet
Old mine Paraiba. But why is it sleepy? Don''t expect a Paraiba to be eye-clean.
This guy specializes only in original mine paraibas. He has eye clean ones from under 1 caraters to giants. The huge ones are go up to $20K/ct. He even has some eye clean ones but my budget can only stretch to barely eye clean. Not sure why it is sleepy but pictures should be forthcoming.
 

chrono

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Date: 4/17/2009 11:41:27 PM
Author: karee888
do you have pictures of either?
I''d love to post the John Dyer stone but am worried about the silently lurking stone snatchers.
 

T L

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Need pictures, but be leary of dealers using the terms "top windex blue." I find a lot of them throw that terminology around quite a bit, and it's not necessarily true. If it were truly a "top windex blue" old mine paraiba, I would rather have that, but that stuff was mined out back in the 80's I believe. The stuff coming out of Brazil right now is not as neon as the original material. I would also want an origin report from a reputable lab. At 4:34 in this video is some original mine unheated material supposedly discovered during the 80's.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7kiF-fz4XfE
 

Harriet

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Date: 4/17/2009 11:46:58 PM
Author: Chrono

Date: 4/17/2009 11:39:53 PM
Author: Harriet
Old mine Paraiba. But why is it sleepy? Don''t expect a Paraiba to be eye-clean.
This guy specializes only in original mine paraibas. He has eye clean ones from under 1 caraters to giants. The huge ones are go up to $20K/ct. He even has some eye clean ones but my budget can only stretch to barely eye clean. Not sure why it is sleepy but pictures should be forthcoming.
R. P.?
 

ma re

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If paraiba is really something that takes your breath away, I''d get that, cause you can always find super sparkly precision cut gems in other varieties - but truly glowing ones are rarer by the day.
 

Lady_Disdain

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That is a tough choice. I love glowy stones, but a John Dyer neon tourmaline must be stunning.

I think I would go with the Paraiba. You can get a different JD later, but nice Paraibas are very hard to find.

What do you plan on doing with the stone?
 

LD

Ideal_Rock
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Tough one.

What''s your main criteria? Is origin the most important or the look? Personally, in most cases for me, it''s how the gemstone looks.

They both sound lovely.
 

Harriet

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Date: 4/17/2009 11:58:50 PM
Author: Harriet

Date: 4/17/2009 11:46:58 PM
Author: Chrono


Date: 4/17/2009 11:39:53 PM
Author: Harriet
Old mine Paraiba. But why is it sleepy? Don''t expect a Paraiba to be eye-clean.
This guy specializes only in original mine paraibas. He has eye clean ones from under 1 caraters to giants. The huge ones are go up to $20K/ct. He even has some eye clean ones but my budget can only stretch to barely eye clean. Not sure why it is sleepy but pictures should be forthcoming.
R. P.?
On second thoughts, the "sleepiness" of the Paraiba is disconcerting. Perhaps you can wait, save, and then get a good specimen?
 

chrono

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Date: 4/17/2009 11:48:49 PM
Author: karee888
oh, sorry
can you put it on hold? are both stones from him?
No, the paraiba is from someone who specializes only in the old mine Brazilian paraiba stones.
 

chrono

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Date: 4/17/2009 11:55:05 PM
Author: tourmaline_lover
Need pictures, but be leary of dealers using the terms ''top windex blue.'' I find a lot of them throw that terminology around quite a bit, and it''s not necessarily true. If it were truly a ''top windex blue'' old mine paraiba, I would rather have that, but that stuff was mined out back in the 80''s I believe. The stuff coming out of Brazil right now is not as neon as the original material. I would also want an origin report from a reputable lab. At 4:34 in this video is some original mine unheated material supposedly discovered during the 80''s.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7kiF-fz4XfE
The sale would be contingent upon a AGTA lab report, no less than that.
 

chrono

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Date: 4/18/2009 11:17:03 AM
Author: Harriet

Date: 4/17/2009 11:58:50 PM
Author: Harriet


Date: 4/17/2009 11:46:58 PM
Author: Chrono



Date: 4/17/2009 11:39:53 PM
Author: Harriet
Old mine Paraiba. But why is it sleepy? Don''t expect a Paraiba to be eye-clean.
This guy specializes only in original mine paraibas. He has eye clean ones from under 1 caraters to giants. The huge ones are go up to $20K/ct. He even has some eye clean ones but my budget can only stretch to barely eye clean. Not sure why it is sleepy but pictures should be forthcoming.
R. P.?
On second thoughts, the ''sleepiness'' of the Paraiba is disconcerting. Perhaps you can wait, save, and then get a good specimen?
The price is more per carat than a top diamond of equal weight; it costs more than all of my various RHR and E-ring diamonds. It is from the original mine, not the newer mine in Brazil. It is also not the newly mined rough. As mentioned above, I cannot make a full determination without pictures. My point of the post is only to ask which one YOU (not specifically Harriet) would prefer: a old mine paraiba or a neon non copper bearing tourmaline.
 

chrono

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Date: 4/18/2009 9:50:00 AM
Author: Lady_Disdain
That is a tough choice. I love glowy stones, but a John Dyer neon tourmaline must be stunning.

I think I would go with the Paraiba. You can get a different JD later, but nice Paraibas are very hard to find.

What do you plan on doing with the stone?
Probably will custom set it in a ring. It''ll have to be a very special setting because it will be worthy of a heirloom piece.
 

chrono

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Date: 4/18/2009 9:57:56 AM
Author: LovingDiamonds
Tough one.

What''s your main criteria? Is origin the most important or the look? Personally, in most cases for me, it''s how the gemstone looks.

They both sound lovely.
The look in the most important. The paraiba from the original mine (not the new mine and new rough from the ground) is supposed to to be unmatched compared to the Mozambique and Nigerain cuprites. It is supposedly also better than the new Brazilian paraiba stones being mined now.

Both are quite different:
The DJ stone is glowy but less than the paraiba. However, the cutting brings out the colour and brilliance to the Nth degree.
The paraiba is just all colour and glow but isn''t precision cut.
 

chrono

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Before I forget, I''m not sure why he mentioned it is SLIGHTLY sleepy. I will follow up with that - it''s a bit worrying so I may select another stone from his inventory.
 

Lady_Disdain

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Date: 4/18/2009 1:49:11 PM
Author: Chrono
The look in the most important. The paraiba from the original mine (not the new mine and new rough from the ground) is supposed to to be unmatched compared to the Mozambique and Nigerain cuprites. It is supposedly also better than the new Brazilian paraiba stones being mined now.
Although some gorgeous, unmatched stones came from the original Mina da Batalha, not all original mine paraiba is unmatched. I should know - I have an absolutely unspectacular 0.6 original mine paraiba
 

chrono

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Date: 4/18/2009 1:56:26 PM
Author: Lady_Disdain

Date: 4/18/2009 1:49:11 PM
Author: Chrono
The look in the most important. The paraiba from the original mine (not the new mine and new rough from the ground) is supposed to to be unmatched compared to the Mozambique and Nigerain cuprites. It is supposedly also better than the new Brazilian paraiba stones being mined now.
Although some gorgeous, unmatched stones came from the original Mina da Batalha, not all original mine paraiba is unmatched. I should know - I have an absolutely unspectacular 0.6 original mine paraiba
That''s why I need to make the comparison very carefully and take my time looking around. Is yours mined recently? I was told that stuff mined in the 80s are better. The stuff mined in the 90s aren''t as nice.
 

Lady_Disdain

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Date: 4/18/2009 2:08:46 PM
Author: Chrono

Date: 4/18/2009 1:56:26 PM
Author: Lady_Disdain


Date: 4/18/2009 1:49:11 PM
Author: Chrono
The look in the most important. The paraiba from the original mine (not the new mine and new rough from the ground) is supposed to to be unmatched compared to the Mozambique and Nigerain cuprites. It is supposedly also better than the new Brazilian paraiba stones being mined now.
Although some gorgeous, unmatched stones came from the original Mina da Batalha, not all original mine paraiba is unmatched. I should know - I have an absolutely unspectacular 0.6 original mine paraiba
That''s why I need to make the comparison very carefully and take my time looking around. Is yours mined recently? I was told that stuff mined in the 80s are better. The stuff mined in the 90s aren''t as nice.
I am not sure, actually!
 

Harriet

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Chrono,
I understand your question perfectly. I even thought about it for quite a while. I would prefer an old mine Paraiba, but only if it were a good token of its type, given how much even a ho hum one would cost. If my current choice were between a "sleepy" Paraiba and a top stone from John, I''d wait it out or take John''s. Plus, you''ve shown yourself to be a discerning and patient shopper.
 

T L

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Stupid question:
Can the AGTA even determine it''s Brazilian, and if so, from the original mine? If not, then all bets are off.
 

Harriet

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TL,
That''s not a stupid question. The AGTA can determine the country of origin, but I don''t know whether it can determine the mine. If I were plonking down the amount of dough that Chrono has in mind, I''d like to know the answer to the latter question too.
 

LD

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Date: 4/18/2009 4:50:04 PM
Author: Harriet
TL,
That''s not a stupid question. The AGTA can determine the country of origin, but I don''t know whether it can determine the mine. If I were plonking down the amount of dough that Chrono has in mind, I''d like to know the answer to the latter question too.
I''m really interested in this as well. I thought (and am happy to be proved wrong) that the whole reason that the Mozambique et al stones could be called "Paraiba" is because their chemical make-up is identical to the Brazilian mined gemstones. Is this incorrect?
 

Harriet

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Date: 4/18/2009 5:23:44 PM
Author: LovingDiamonds
I''m really interested in this as well. I thought (and am happy to be proved wrong) that the whole reason that the Mozambique et al stones could be called ''Paraiba'' is because their chemical make-up is identical to the Brazilian mined gemstones. Is this incorrect?
That''s my understanding too.
 

LD

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Date: 4/18/2009 5:25:08 PM
Author: Harriet

Date: 4/18/2009 5:23:44 PM
Author: LovingDiamonds
I''m really interested in this as well. I thought (and am happy to be proved wrong) that the whole reason that the Mozambique et al stones could be called ''Paraiba'' is because their chemical make-up is identical to the Brazilian mined gemstones. Is this incorrect?
That''s my understanding too.
I wonder how AGTA could determine origin then?????
 

zeolite

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Date: 4/18/2009 5:34:19 PM
Author: LovingDiamonds


Date: 4/18/2009 5:25:08 PM
Author: Harriet



Date: 4/18/2009 5:23:44 PM
Author: LovingDiamonds
I'm really interested in this as well. I thought (and am happy to be proved wrong) that the whole reason that the Mozambique et al stones could be called 'Paraiba' is because their chemical make-up is identical to the Brazilian mined gemstones. Is this incorrect?
That's my understanding too.
I wonder how AGTA could determine origin then?????
Probably chemical analysis by electron microprobe. They examine the relative ratios of copper to manganese, and compare to samples from known localities.

Good reading:

http://www.agta-gtc.org/report_tourmaline.htm

http://www.agta-gtc.org/pdf_files/lmhc6-paraiba.pdf

http://www.gemstone.org/gem-by-gem/english/paraiba.html
 

m76steve

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i remember reading that the original cuprine brazillian paraiba contained gold at about 6 parts per million and that some gem cutters at the time even considered destroying the gem material for the gold content-what a waste-this actually did not happen. supposidely this gold content was not seen in the african material. many years ago jtv used to tell this same story about the gold content-early info-my 2cents...this is brazillian paraiba-authentic-heated...

m10.JPG
 
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