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Orange diamond questions

fishfrenzy

Rough_Rock
Joined
Oct 12, 2016
Messages
80
Hello everyone. I was looking into orange diamonds and found that Ebay has quite a few. However, I also know that Ebay is notorious for shady dealings and less than honest postings.

I found this 0.33 carat, fancy brown/orange/yellow (they don't even know) color diamond in a round cut from Benma Diamonds.

Here is a video of said diamond.

The photoshopped photo in the Ebay posting has me wary of it, but I do like the color that it appears as from the other photos and the video.

Is the listed price fair? Has anyone worked with or purchased from Benma Diamonds before? Are IGL gradings any good?
 

Rockdiamond

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Jan 7, 2009
Messages
8,449
Hey Fishy!
As a seller, I can't answer specific questions about a seller or stone- but I can give general answers.
Orange- I should say pure orange- is one of the rarest colors in diamonds.
Right up there with Blue and Pink.
BUT- there's gazillions of stones that have a bit of orange, mixed with Brown- such stones are not at all rare, and quite reasonably priced.

About "certified" stones- a term which GIA abhors- in the trade, if one had a pure orange diamond, there's only one report ( erroneously called a "certificate") which wold be acceptable- and that is GIA.
For stones in the more reasonable price ranges- especially under $500, it makes little sense to spend $159 on a GIA report. So you won;t generally find the stones in these price ranges with GIA reports.
The other labs can provide valuable information, such as the fact the stone is natural, measurements and such....but I'd pay little attention to the color grade on the non GA reports.
 

fishfrenzy

Rough_Rock
Joined
Oct 12, 2016
Messages
80
Cool, that's some interesting information.

So I basically have to take the information that can be determined (whether it's natural, what the dimensions are) and determine for myself whether it's something I'd like to buy? I'm not after an orange diamond just to say it's authentic and GIA certified and all that. I am just looking for a nice, orange diamond that's not too included and doesn't look like it was poorly cut.

I'm not after perfect, just after something nice.

My main concern was the price. Because of how different all diamonds are it seems like prices are inconsistent, or difficult to determine.
 

Rockdiamond

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Jan 7, 2009
Messages
8,449
Yes, it's true- pricing on Fancy colored diamonds in particular, is not simple.
Another general rule that seems to hold true- you get what you pay for. If a stone is very cheap, generally there's a reason for it.
 

pinn

Rough_Rock
Joined
Sep 11, 2016
Messages
23
I'm not sure if anyone on this form has had any experience with the diamond pro website that could chime in, but they will pick out diamonds for you if you send them an email. Just describe what you're looking for and if there is anything available that matches your parameters they'll reply with recommendations (I think they usually use leibish to source coloured stones). That sort of takes the pressure off of you wondering if something is a good buy or not.
https://www.diamonds.pro/category/questions-and-answers/
They seem to be good about encouraging customers not to overspend on colour and clarity etc. I'm sure people here would be interested to see what they recommend for you.
 

fishfrenzy

Rough_Rock
Joined
Oct 12, 2016
Messages
80
pinn|1477660881|4091495 said:
I'm not sure if anyone on this form has had any experience with the diamond pro website that could chime in, but they will pick out diamonds for you if you send them an email. Just describe what you're looking for and if there is anything available that matches your parameters they'll reply with recommendations (I think they usually use leibish to source coloured stones). That sort of takes the pressure off of you wondering if something is a good buy or not.
https://www.diamonds.pro/category/questions-and-answers/
They seem to be good about encouraging customers not to overspend on colour and clarity etc. I'm sure people here would be interested to see what they recommend for you.
Oh cool, I hadn't heard of them. I'll give it a shot. Thanks!
 

tyty333

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Dec 17, 2008
Messages
22,683
fishfrenzy|1477663275|4091507 said:
pinn|1477660881|4091495 said:
I'm not sure if anyone on this form has had any experience with the diamond pro website that could chime in, but they will pick out diamonds for you if you send them an email. Just describe what you're looking for and if there is anything available that matches your parameters they'll reply with recommendations (I think they usually use leibish to source coloured stones). That sort of takes the pressure off of you wondering if something is a good buy or not.
https://www.diamonds.pro/category/questions-and-answers/
They seem to be good about encouraging customers not to overspend on colour and clarity etc. I'm sure people here would be interested to see what they recommend for you.
Oh cool, I hadn't heard of them. I'll give it a shot. Thanks!

Leibish is going to be expensive. We can recommend stones for you but if your budget is $500 or less then you'll need to stick with
ebay pretty much (or really, really tiny stones like .15 maybe - GIA certed). These are the prices you are looking at from Leibish.
http://www.leibish.com/orange-diamonds/fancy-deep-yellow-orange-round-20333

Honestly if you are looking for a "just for fun" stone I think that one looks pretty nice. I think it might look more brown with orange
highlights (my term) in sunlight. Is there a good return policy if you dont like the color? If so, I think you should order it and check
it out.

The clarity doesnt look too bad. It has at least 1 feather and looks like maybe a piece of carbon on the edge. I see something else
in it but cant tell what it is (maybe another feather?) At that size these inclusions should not be a huge issue and besides for the
price (like you said) you cant expect perfection.

Color is subjective so only you will know if you like it when you see it in person but if it is returnable then not a problem if you
dont care for the color.

Do you own any other diamonds? Remember .33 is small (just dont want you to be shocked).
Here is the size of that stone on a 2mm wide gold band and a size 6 1/2 finger just to give you some reference.


If you do get it, please post some pictures!

brown_orange_stone.png
 

fishfrenzy

Rough_Rock
Joined
Oct 12, 2016
Messages
80
tyty333|1477666056|4091520 said:
fishfrenzy|1477663275|4091507 said:
pinn|1477660881|4091495 said:
I'm not sure if anyone on this form has had any experience with the diamond pro website that could chime in, but they will pick out diamonds for you if you send them an email. Just describe what you're looking for and if there is anything available that matches your parameters they'll reply with recommendations (I think they usually use leibish to source coloured stones). That sort of takes the pressure off of you wondering if something is a good buy or not.
https://www.diamonds.pro/category/questions-and-answers/
They seem to be good about encouraging customers not to overspend on colour and clarity etc. I'm sure people here would be interested to see what they recommend for you.
Oh cool, I hadn't heard of them. I'll give it a shot. Thanks!

Leibish is going to be expensive. We can recommend stones for you but if your budget is $500 or less then you'll need to stick with
ebay pretty much (or really, really tiny stones like .15 maybe - GIA certed). These are the prices you are looking at from Leibish.
http://www.leibish.com/orange-diamonds/fancy-deep-yellow-orange-round-20333

Honestly if you are looking for a "just for fun" stone I think that one looks pretty nice. I think it might look more brown with orange
highlights (my term) in sunlight. Is there a good return policy if you dont like the color? If so, I think you should order it and check
it out.

The clarity doesnt look too bad. It has at least 1 feather and looks like maybe a piece of carbon on the edge. I see something else
in it but cant tell what it is (maybe another feather?) At that size these inclusions should not be a huge issue and besides for the
price (like you said) you cant expect perfection.

Color is subjective so only you will know if you like it when you see it in person but if it is returnable then not a problem if you
dont care for the color.

Do you own any other diamonds? Remember .33 is small (just dont want you to be shocked).
Here is the size of that stone on a 2mm wide gold band and a size 6 1/2 finger just to give you some reference.


If you do get it, please post some pictures!
I currently have a .33 or .34 carat heirloom diamond. It is quite small, but it will be going on a small ring, so the size isn't too important.

Both the heirloom and whichever orange diamond I purchase will be going on a toi et moi setting as an engagement ring.

I thank everyone for their help so far. I truly appreciate it.
 

fishfrenzy

Rough_Rock
Joined
Oct 12, 2016
Messages
80
The ebay diamond turn out to be not as I expected. On the left is my heirloom European cut diamond (jeweler told me "European style rose cut"; not sure what to call it anymore). In the middle is the ebay diamond. On the right is an orange sapphire I was looking at as a budget option orange stone.

20161031_164721.jpg

I have also found an orange diamond for about $1200 in the size I'm after. What questions should I be asking before buying? Here are the photos.

GIA report.

I apologize if I'm asking any dumb questions or for any information I may have accidentally misrepresented.
 

pinn

Rough_Rock
Joined
Sep 11, 2016
Messages
23
Tell me if I'm way off, I'm not really sure about your parameters (size, shape, precise budget), but it seems to me like those things have been fluctuating somewhat since you began your search and as long as you like the orange look of the diamond (not dull brownish orange like the one from ebay) you aren't too fussed about its other qualities. So maybe rather than trying to figure out what to ask and how to conduct this transaction privately you should just restrict your search to a few reputable vendors and then all you have to worry about is whether you like the appearance of the diamond itself.

So for the same price you just mentioned you could get this diamond here, and I actually some what like the color better on this one. It's smaller in carat weight but I think the face up size is roughly the same.
http://www.diamondsbylauren.com/index.php/jewelry/loose-diamond-26ct-fancy-vivid-orangy-yellow-i1-round-brilliant-diamond-gia-r6609

There's also this one, slightly larger and cheaper in price, but has a more dull brownish tone.
http://www.diamondsbylauren.com/index.php/jewelry/loose-brown-diamond-48ct-fancy-yellow-orangy-brown-si2-princess-cut-diamond-r6998

I also like this one
http://www.leibish.com/orange-diamonds/fancy-yellow-orange-pear-20381

Have you though about lab grown diamonds? They're often a better option for fancy colors. I don't see anything on this website in your size and price range, but it would be worth reaching out to them to ask if they ever do anything in the 0.3ct range, I think other PSers have bought from them.
http://d.neadiamonds.com/lab-created-diamonds/Orangy-Diamonds#c=O&p=0-19300

Finally I would say if I were you I would go with one of three options. Choose one of the stones above (if any PSer has any other input I would add it to that list), go back to the orange sapphire, or wait and keep an eye on inventory from a variety of vendors and see what comes in stock - assuming of course you're not on a deadline. You can do almost anything on a budget so long as you have time.
 

Tourmaline

Brilliant_Rock
Premium
Joined
Nov 17, 2013
Messages
1,796
fishfrenzy|1478008354|4092626 said:
On the left is my heirloom European cut diamond (jeweler told me "European style rose cut"; not sure what to call it anymore).
Get a new jeweler. That diamond is a lovely old European cut, nothing to do with rose cut.
 

fishfrenzy

Rough_Rock
Joined
Oct 12, 2016
Messages
80
I did like that diamond from Diamonds by Lauren. I worried it was a little too yellowy. I would like for it to be a 4.2mm round cut so I can place it in a toi et moi setting.

The one I linked the album to is from CaratsDirect2U. I am unsure whether or not they are reputable since they have hardly been mentioned in this forum. I have reason to believe they are fine though. Any input from others would be appreciated.


Tourmaline said:
fishfrenzy|1478008354|4092626 said:
On the left is my heirloom European cut diamond (jeweler told me "European style rose cut"; not sure what to call it anymore).
Get a new jeweler. That diamond is a lovely old European cut, nothing to do with rose cut.

I definitely will. Not that this comes up I may also get it measured somewhere else as well.
 

pinn

Rough_Rock
Joined
Sep 11, 2016
Messages
23
If you're have some confidence in that vendor then I would say pick whichever stone you like the best (so long as they have a reasonable return policy). I understand why you want to restrict your search to a round, but that makes things somewhat more difficult as this is a less common shape for a fancy, typically they're cut into shapes that hold their color better. Keep us posted on whatever you pick and if you're satisfied with the color
 

pearaffair

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jun 15, 2015
Messages
3,259
Could you make the ring, set it with the orange stone you have, and upgrade when the perfect option becomes available and affordable for you?
 

princessandthepear

Brilliant_Rock
Premium
Joined
Aug 26, 2015
Messages
594
James Allen has a 0.3 orange diamond for $1400 dollars that might suit you. I don't know how flexible you are on the budget. Thought the first orange diamond from DBL is lovely.
 

fishfrenzy

Rough_Rock
Joined
Oct 12, 2016
Messages
80
pearaffair|1478049061|4092824 said:
Could you make the ring, set it with the orange stone you have, and upgrade when the perfect option becomes available and affordable for you?
I had not thought of that. I bet I could! Although knowing my girlfriend she'd never let me adjust it once she had it (especially at the prices these diamonds are). I know that as far as diamonds go, it's not a lot, but to me it's a relatively fair amount.

princessandthepear said:
James Allen has a 0.3 orange diamond for $1400 dollars that might suit you. I don't know how flexible you are on the budget. Thought the first orange diamond from DBL is lovely.
I believe this is the one you're talking about?

I feel as though "orange" the color and an "orange" diamond are different things. It is an undoubtedly beautiful stone. I would probably call it "peach" before "orange" though.

To those curious, links to all orange, round, approximately 4.2mm diamonds I've looked at so far:

CaratsDirect2U and album

Leibish (too large for me)

Diamond by Lauren

Langerman - 1, 2, and 3

James Allen
 

pearaffair

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jun 15, 2015
Messages
3,259
Hi OP, you're totally right. I'd be like that too! :)

Better give her the ring she can keep as-is forever
 

fishfrenzy

Rough_Rock
Joined
Oct 12, 2016
Messages
80
pearaffair|1478055031|4092847 said:
Hi OP, you're totally right. I'd be like that too! :)

Better give her the ring she can keep as-is forever
Will certainly try! It has to be perfect. Even then I'd think of something that needs to be different about. I'm never satisfied. :lol:
 

fishfrenzy

Rough_Rock
Joined
Oct 12, 2016
Messages
80
intense_blue|1478438451|4094443 said:
Regarding IGL certificates, I must say as someone who worked with them a bit they have a bad reputation and there's a an inside joke saying that as a client you can basically tell them what grading you want them to put on the certificate and they will do so happily...
From my experience it's even better buying a stone with no certificate at all and sending it to one of the trusted labs such as GIA or IGI.
From the photo it's clear that the stone you saw on eBay is mostly brown.

How about this one?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Yellow-Diam...-Deep-Color-/131968812296?hash=item1eb9f44508
Ah, I'll be wary of IGL, thank you.

As for this diamond you suggested, it is a bit too small for me. Very nice color though.
 

kenny

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Apr 30, 2005
Messages
29,134
fishfrenzy|1478376894|4094187 said:
That diamond is not 'fully' natural.

With colored diamonds there are two things that can be of natural (or unnatural) origin.
1. The material can be mined from the earth, or grown in a lab.
2. The color can be as it came out of the earth, or it can be the result of treatment in a lab.

The Lucent diamond in your link was mined from the earth, but the color is not natural.

Diamonds graded by a reputable lab like GIA to be fully natural are much more expensive.

There is nothing wrong with diamonds that are color-treated' or lab-grown.
What is wrong is the customer not understanding, especially not being told by the seller, what (s)he is getting.
Lucent clearly states what they are selling.
FWIW, an experienced eye can often recognize the unnatural hue of some lab-treated diamonds ... especially the teal blue ones.

If you are happy with a diamond that's not fully-natural you will spend less and/or get a larger stone.
You can save even more by buying something that's not even a diamond but looks, to you, close enough.
I would not recommend proposing with such a stone however.
Unless previously discussed and agreed-to, an engagement stone is usually assumed to be fully natural.

Personally, I value and buy only fully natural FCDs, even though I can afford only small ones.
If you insist on a fully natural FCD with grades you can be confident of get one graded by the gold-standard lab for grading FCDs, GIA.
 

fishfrenzy

Rough_Rock
Joined
Oct 12, 2016
Messages
80
kenny|1478448649|4094511 said:
fishfrenzy|1478376894|4094187 said:
That diamond is not 'fully' natural.

With colored diamonds there are two things that can be of natural (or unnatural) origin.
1. The material can be mined from the earth, or grown in a lab.
2. The color can be as it came out of the earth, or it can be the result of treatment in a lab.

The Lucent diamond in your link was mined from the earth, but the color is not natural.

Diamonds graded by a reputable lab like GIA to be fully natural are much more expensive.

There is nothing wrong with 'treated' diamonds or lab-grown diamonds.
What is wrong is the customer not understanding, especially not being told by the seller, what (s)he is getting.

If you are happy with a diamond that's not fully-natural you will spend less and/or get a larger stone.
You can save even more by buying something that's not even a diamond but looks, to you, close enough.
I would not recommend proposing with such a stone; many assume an engagement stone will be fully natural.

Personally, I value and buy only fully natural FCDs, even though I can afford only small ones.
If you insist on a fully natural FCD with grades you can be confident about get one graded by GIA, the gold-standard lab for grading FCDs.
Thank you for the information! I don't really mind the unnatural origin, but it's good to know the distinction. Right now my main focus is the color. Unfortunately the one I linked from Lucent only has one photo available, and it looks to be very altered.

Here is the report they gave me from their own lab.

ldd1068b-page1.jpg
 

kenny

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Apr 30, 2005
Messages
29,134
fishfrenzy|1478449508|4094516 said:
Thank you for the information! I don't really mind the unnatural origin, but it's good to know the distinction. Right now my main focus is the color. Unfortunately the one I linked from Lucent only has one photo available, and it looks to be very altered.

Here is the report they gave me from their own lab.

ldd1068b-page1.jpg
Yes the color does look altered, and many things can alter the color we see on our screens.
Then again some lab-created colors do not look like those of fully-natural FCDs.
Color is personal and if you like it, that's all that matters.

BTW, GIA Facetware is software that estimates cut-grade of round diamonds.
This does not mean the diamond has been graded by GIA.

Since all the proportions are published you can, if you care to, evaluate the light performance, aka the cut.
Usually buyers and sellers of FCDs give little attention to light performance.
They have a saying in the FCD world, Color is King.
I have a few FCDs and LOVE good light performance too and unfortunately GIA reports do not publish enough info to judge the cut of FCDs.
A couple of mine have good light performance so I get the best of both worlds, color and sparkle.

The HCA is a cut-evaluation tool for rounds.
It works the same for white or colored diamonds.
You plug in 4 numbers and it gives a cut score.
http://www.pricescope.com/tools/hca
The higher the score the worse the cut.
I'd reject scores over 2.0.
Scores under 2.0 are considered acceptable enough to continue evaluating the diamond.

The round in your link does not have a good score.
5.4 means much of the light will leak out the bottom instead of being returned to your eye.
If I was shopping I'd keep looking.

Now, get ready for a seller of colored diamonds, and/or some civilians here, to tell you to ignore cut with FCDs.
Sellers want to sell every diamond in their vault, and FCDs are nearly never cut for good light performance.
They are cut to save weight and strengthen the color.
This makes them get higher grades which translates into higher profits.
Very few buyers know that cut determines light performance, and nearly all informed FCD shoppers don't even pay attention to cut quality.

Again, color is personal and it could be argued also wanting good cut in an FCD is personal.
I want it all, but I understand it will take longer to find this needle in the haystack.

screen_shot_2016-11-06_at_8.png
 

fishfrenzy

Rough_Rock
Joined
Oct 12, 2016
Messages
80
Thank you for all this extremely detailed information. I'll have to be more thorough in my search now.
 

MarlonN

Rough_Rock
Joined
Oct 14, 2016
Messages
47
Personally, I would stay away from Ebay. For me, no deal is worth possibly getting scammed, and I would really rather just get all my jewelry from a reputable source and pay that little extra. Maybe it's because I'm still new to the process of buying diamonds so I guess it would be really easy to con me right now.
 

fishfrenzy

Rough_Rock
Joined
Oct 12, 2016
Messages
80
tyty333|1478465782|4094577 said:
It is really beautiful. That color is just something else entirely.

MarlonN said:
Personally, I would stay away from Ebay. For me, no deal is worth possibly getting scammed, and I would really rather just get all my jewelry from a reputable source and pay that little extra. Maybe it's because I'm still new to the process of buying diamonds so I guess it would be really easy to con me right now.
I'm probably not going to go with an eBay stone. It just doesn't seem like a good idea unless you know exactly what you're doing (which I don't).
 

fishfrenzy

Rough_Rock
Joined
Oct 12, 2016
Messages
80
So I've been looking and looking, and came across this AMAZING RARE QUALITY AAA ORANGE YELLOW COLOR NATURAL DIAMONDS on eBay. I know, I said I wouldn't buy from there.

However, the size is just what I'm after and the photos the vendor sent me look promising.

img-20161027-wa0001.jpg

img-20161027-wa0002.jpg

And here's a short video of it (vidme)

The certificate would be through IGL, though I may not even bother with one. It's cheap, but the color looks right, the size is right, the price is acceptable, and (if it's actually a diamond) it will satisfy all my most basic requirements. Maybe one day in the future I'll swap it out with a more ideal one.

Is there be anything else I should ask for regarding this stone? Gemcontinent appears to have 100% favorable reviews. Does anyone else have any insight?
 

Niel

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jul 23, 2012
Messages
18,952
The sapphire you found didn't pan out?
 

fishfrenzy

Rough_Rock
Joined
Oct 12, 2016
Messages
80
Niel|1479391385|4099714 said:
The sapphire you found didn't pan out?
Not really. Wrong size. I've also found that the sapphires aren't as brilliant as a diamond.
 
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