Opinions on Gorilla killed at Cinn. Zoo

[telephone89]

Why couldn't one or more zoo employees have jumped in the enclosure with food or something to try to distract Harambe and get the boy to safety? They didn't even try. Just really sad and pissed that Harambe was killed. It was so unnecessary and senseless.

I believe the zoo keepers tried calling the gorillas out of the enclosure. All the others went except for harambe. So it didn't look like he was giving up the kid anytime soon. I assume they call them and reward them with food, so it would be a similar idea.

 

[telephone89]

WARNING graphic language/swearing, great article about our lack of empathy and the internet though....

https://medium.com/@honeystaysuper/hey-america-do-accidents-happen-anymore-especially-when-a-kid-is-involved-70b0971e5656#.e6mnkj423

I don't really agree with most of this article. There is a reason car 'accidents' aren't called accidents - they are collisions. Because someone is always at fault. No criminal charges does not meant not at fault, that is something totally different.

I do agree with the comments about parenting - damned if you do, damned if you don't kind of mentality for sure.

 

[chrono]

I do agree with the comments about parenting - damned if you do, damned if you don't kind of mentality for sure.

Indeed, and it's usually the mother that is blamed. It is incredibly rare for men to have the finger pointed at them.

 

[packrat]

Like I said a couple pages before--we're a nation of armchair quarter backs. And we ALL know exactly how to react in any given situation, at all times, and we would all react 100% of the time in 100% proper and perfect manner, even tho we have absolutely zero knowledge of what the situation involves and zero training in the situation.

This struck me: "But we can always choose how to react—whether to show an ounce of empathy and keep our minds open or we can just go right ahead and grab those pitchforks and torches. You choose."

That statement reminds me of what my dad said a while back when a woman who was a conceal carry permit holder, had her weapon in her purse and her toddler found it in the grocery store and shot himself. Dad said "I know everyone is coming out of the woodwork now to point fingers at gun owners and say how terrible we are and berate her for being a terrible mother. But you know what--that woman just lost her child. And it was nobody's fault but her own for not having it secured properly. But--she was his mother and there is not one ounce of me that can hate her, she was his mother above all else and I can't condemn her-she's condemning herself right now and she will for the rest of her life, she doesn't need people piling on her. Now is when we use this to reiterate precautions and proper handling, not use this to spread hate".

For whatever reason we just can not leave well enough alone and allow those w/training and knowledge be the ones to take care of shit. We expect there to be hundreds of zoo security poised, ready to parachute in at a moments notice and make split second decisions-and then we bitch about it. We think we're above everyone else and we can do everything in all ways--but yet we stand around and scream and holler and point and scream some more and demand people take care of shit and then we scream some more and just add to the general melee rather than let people do their stupid jobs...but yet..ohhh yeah, we totally know how we would react right? No. We don't. And it's proven time and time again over and over and over--you were not there, and chances are that more than likely, you'd have been one of the ones standing around screaming, not knowing what to do--and someone else would be sitting at their computer all puffed up w/self righteous anger and importance over the fact that *they* would have handled it perfectly, even w/zero training, b/c the ones w/the training are apparently buffoons.

Rather than don our logical thinking caps and try to figure out how to prevent this from happening again, we prefer to turn rabid and demand blood. Cuz that will totally solve everything.

Do we think animals would react this way? Doubtful. And we think we're better than they? That's highly suspect. Absolutely I believe we were granted stewardship over this earth---and guess what, maybe this will surprise a few---what do we learn during hunter safety? We are stewards of the earth and the animals that inhabit it. We are the checks and balances---not the fricken be all and end all.

I bet zoo employees never thought they'd find themselves on the receiving end of the pitchforks that have been of late reserved for law enforcement eh?

 

[AGBF]

I am not so easily swayed by pie.

Then what is your culinary weakness, Annette? I will gather some photos of it for the next dispute if you give me some advance notice by telling me now.

Deb

 

[packrat]

Thank you, rainy, stracci and Deb. It's nice to know I'm heard even when I don't know it.

 

[chrono]

Thank you, rainy, stracci and Deb. It's nice to know I'm heard even when I don't know it.

Packrat,
I read your posts often and finding myself nodding my head, even though I don't post it.

 

[telephone89]

But--she was his mother and there is not one ounce of me that can hate her, she was his mother above all else and I can't condemn her-she's condemning herself right now and she will for the rest of her life, she doesn't need people piling on her. Now is when we use this to reiterate precautions and proper handling, not use this to spread hate".

Not that this was part of what you were saying, but the family is joking about the incident on FB, saying how the boy had so much fun and wants to do it again, etc.
So, this particular family isn't condemning themselves much at all, except maybe when they (inevitably) start doing the talk show rounds, which they'll be compensated for I'm sure.

 

[packrat]

Kinda picky about pies..but I could go for the cake JD makes for me when I hint around.

 

[siamese3]

Packrat...OMG!! That cake looks amazing!

 

[AGBF]

packrat-

I don't even like strawberries, but that looking at that cake makes me drool!!! You are one lucky woman!

Hugs,
Deb

 

[CJ2008]

But--she was his mother and there is not one ounce of me that can hate her, she was his mother above all else and I can't condemn her-she's condemning herself right now and she will for the rest of her life, she doesn't need people piling on her. Now is when we use this to reiterate precautions and proper handling, not use this to spread hate".

Not that this was part of what you were saying, but the family is joking about the incident on FB, saying how the boy had so much fun and wants to do it again, etc.
So, this particular family isn't condemning themselves much at all, except maybe when they (inevitably) start doing the talk show rounds, which they'll be compensated for I'm sure.

(I also get that packrat was talking about a different incident.)

But one one of the things that has crossed my mind a few times is that just because someone is a mother, doesn't mean she's a compassionate person. Doesn't mean she's a nice person. Doesn't mean she regrets her actions. She could be a total idiot and could care less about the consequences of her actions.

The fact that the family is joking about the incident on FB makes me sick. There is nothing funny about any part of this incident. And it makes me sad that they may be passing this attitude on to their boy.

ETA: Monarch! forgot to say thank you for explaining the whole pie thing to me. (((hugs)))

 

[monarch64]

Thank you, rainy, stracci and Deb. It's nice to know I'm heard even when I don't know it.

Packrat,
I read your posts often and finding myself nodding my head, even though I don't post it.

Same here, and don't post because I'm not a big "+1" or "this!" person.

 

[Ellen]

But--she was his mother and there is not one ounce of me that can hate her, she was his mother above all else and I can't condemn her-she's condemning herself right now and she will for the rest of her life, she doesn't need people piling on her. Now is when we use this to reiterate precautions and proper handling, not use this to spread hate".

Not that this was part of what you were saying, but the family is joking about the incident on FB, saying how the boy had so much fun and wants to do it again, etc.
So, this particular family isn't condemning themselves much at all, except maybe when they (inevitably) start doing the talk show rounds, which they'll be compensated for I'm sure.

(I also get that packrat was talking about a different incident.)

But one one of the things that has crossed my mind a few times is that just because someone is a mother, doesn't mean she's a compassionate person. Doesn't mean she's a nice person. Doesn't mean she regrets her actions. She could be a total idiot and could care less about the consequences of her actions.

The fact that the family is joking about the incident on FB makes me sick. There is nothing funny about any part of this incident. And it makes me sad that they may be passing this attitude on to their boy.

I don't do FB. I tried searching for an on line article about this but didn't see anything. Could you possibly elaborate on this? Is there a way to copy and paste their comments?

 

[CJ2008]

I don't do FB much either Ellen...and I myself haven't seen these posts (I don't even know who the family is I have not read anything about the incident except for what has been said in this thread)...telephone89 if you still can see the posts can you cut and paste here? I'd be interested to see it too.

 

[Ellen]

CJ, sorry. I missed telephone's post saying that, and thought you were the one saying it!

 

[monarch64]

But--she was his mother and there is not one ounce of me that can hate her, she was his mother above all else and I can't condemn her-she's condemning herself right now and she will for the rest of her life, she doesn't need people piling on her. Now is when we use this to reiterate precautions and proper handling, not use this to spread hate".

Not that this was part of what you were saying, but the family is joking about the incident on FB, saying how the boy had so much fun and wants to do it again, etc.
So, this particular family isn't condemning themselves much at all, except maybe when they (inevitably) start doing the talk show rounds, which they'll be compensated for I'm sure.

(I also get that packrat was talking about a different incident.)

But one one of the things that has crossed my mind a few times is that just because someone is a mother, doesn't mean she's a compassionate person. Doesn't mean she's a nice person. Doesn't mean she regrets her actions. She could be a total idiot and could care less about the consequences of her actions.

The fact that the family is joking about the incident on FB makes me sick. There is nothing funny about any part of this incident. And it makes me sad that they may be passing this attitude on to their boy.

ETA: Monarch! forgot to say thank you for explaining the whole pie thing to me. (((hugs)))

CJ, you're welcome! I hope others see those explanations as well so they don't feel excluded from that inside joke. We used to have lighthearted arguments over which kind of pie was the best--lemon or key lime was a big debate once or twice.

The family joking about it on FB...I will have to read more about that from the source itself if possible to form an opinion. People deal with things in ways that can seem awful and callous to others when that's just how they are comfortable expressing themselves. And not everyone understands social media etiquette since it's relatively new. Then there's the whole lack of self-awareness or not knowing how others perceive you, or just not giving a you-know-what. I don't know. I'm not judging this mom because I don't feel like wasting the energy on it. All the shaming in the world is not going to turn some people into better parents. Parents teach their children how to be parents (and in some cases, how NOT to parent.) I hope that this parent/family takes responsibility for their actions (although the quote I saw sort of blamed/praised everything that day on a higher power) and teaches their child that he, too, is accountable for his actions. I kind of doubt that is what's happening here, though, see parenthetical above.

 

[CJ2008]

CJ, you're welcome! I hope others see those explanations as well so they don't feel excluded from that inside joke. We used to have lighthearted arguments over which kind of pie was the best--lemon or key lime was a big debate once or twice.

The family joking about it on FB...I will have to read more about that from the source itself if possible to form an opinion. People deal with things in ways that can seem awful and callous to others when that's just how they are comfortable expressing themselves. And not everyone understands social media etiquette since it's relatively new. Then there's the whole lack of self-awareness or not knowing how others perceive you, or just not giving a you-know-what. I don't know. I'm not judging this mom because I don't feel like wasting the energy on it. All the shaming in the world is not going to turn some people into better parents. Parents teach their children how to be parents (and in some cases, how NOT to parent.) I hope that this parent/family takes responsibility for their actions (although the quote I saw sort of blamed/praised everything that day on a higher power) and teaches their child that he, too, is accountable for his actions. I kind of doubt that is what's happening here, though, see parenthetical above.

monarch - excellent excellent points. Not everyone deals with things the same way. You're right. I think my point is - we shouldn't assume either way. We shouldn't assume parent is distraught over incident just because she/he's a parent. Or that they love animals or care about animals just because they're at the zoo. And we shouldn't assume he/she is a terrible parent or doesn't care. We don't know the full story and we will probably never know it because we don't know what people are thinking.

I've made my share of mistakes too. As much as I love my kitties and I am totally overprotective I did have one escape from under my legs once while I had the door ajar talking to a neighbor. If you judged me just on that...well, you'd think I was pretty irresponsible and a bad kitty mom.

The pie thing...I get it. I have conflicting feelings about the way it comes across, but I get it. If someone ever needs to offer me some, please make it rum cake. Thank you.

Ellen - no worries!

 

[telephone89]

I looked again but couldn't find her on FB.

It was something in response to her posting this: http://www.self.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/michelle-gregg-facebook.jpg
Someone was like 'wow that must have been so scary for him, poor boy'
and they responded like 'omg no! He keeps talking about how fun it was! He says he wants to do it again! He just loves monkeys'
(heavily paraphrased as it is from memory)

I mean, a beautiful animal lost it's life, and all they are talking about was how fun it was? Just seems off to me.
*note to self* always screen shot!

 

[monarch64]

CJ, you're welcome! I hope others see those explanations as well so they don't feel excluded from that inside joke. We used to have lighthearted arguments over which kind of pie was the best--lemon or key lime was a big debate once or twice.

The family joking about it on FB...I will have to read more about that from the source itself if possible to form an opinion. People deal with things in ways that can seem awful and callous to others when that's just how they are comfortable expressing themselves. And not everyone understands social media etiquette since it's relatively new. Then there's the whole lack of self-awareness or not knowing how others perceive you, or just not giving a you-know-what. I don't know. I'm not judging this mom because I don't feel like wasting the energy on it. All the shaming in the world is not going to turn some people into better parents. Parents teach their children how to be parents (and in some cases, how NOT to parent.) I hope that this parent/family takes responsibility for their actions (although the quote I saw sort of blamed/praised everything that day on a higher power) and teaches their child that he, too, is accountable for his actions. I kind of doubt that is what's happening here, though, see parenthetical above.

monarch - excellent excellent points. Not everyone deals with things the same way. You're right. I think my point is - we shouldn't assume either way. We shouldn't assume parent is distraught over incident just because she/he's a parent. Or that they love animals or care about animals just because they're at the zoo. And we shouldn't assume he/she is a terrible parent or doesn't care. We don't know the full story and we will probably never know it because we don't know what people are thinking.

I've made my share of mistakes too. As much as I love my kitties and I am totally overprotective I did have one escape from under my legs once while I had the door ajar talking to a neighbor. If you judged me just on that...well, you'd think I was pretty irresponsible and a bad kitty mom.

The pie thing...I get it. I have conflicting feelings about the way it comes across, but I get it. If someone ever needs to offer me some, please make it rum cake. Thank you.

Ellen - no worries!

I hear you on the pet parenting thing! I often wonder, each time I see posts about lost pets, why people don't take more precautions with pets as they do with children. So many lost pet ads, it just blows my mind. But MY dog has escaped before-she can Houdini right out of her collar on you if she wants to go after something-it is so frightening and I feel like a horrible person when it happens, or when my kid accidentally lets the dog out. Over the years here we have taken in several lost dogs and kept a couple overnight until their owners came and got them. I have driven them to the shelter up the street to check for microchips. I have kenneled them, fed/watered them, spent time posting online that I have them. I would hope that my neighbors would do the same for me. Could we all do better to secure our pets? Of course, but until we are all perfect, I'd hope that we just help each other out without wearing our judgy pants and smug faces.

Question: do you want the rum cake intact, or smushed in your face? Oooh we need to start a thread on what people think of couples smashing cake in each other's faces at weddings. That might turn into a 7 pager also!

 

[CJ2008]

She doesn't even mention the gorilla in that post.

 

[CJ2008]

I hear you on the pet parenting thing! I often wonder, each time I see posts about lost pets, why people don't take more precautions with pets as they do with children. So many lost pet ads, it just blows my mind. But MY dog has escaped before-she can Houdini right out of her collar on you if she wants to go after something-it is so frightening and I feel like a horrible person when it happens, or when my kid accidentally lets the dog out. Over the years here we have taken in several lost dogs and kept a couple overnight until their owners came and got them. I have driven them to the shelter up the street to check for microchips. I have kenneled them, fed/watered them, spent time posting online that I have them. I would hope that my neighbors would do the same for me. Could we all do better to secure our pets? Of course, but until we are all perfect, I'd hope that we just help each other out without wearing our judgy pants and smug faces.

Question: do you want the rum cake intact, or smushed in your face? Oooh we need to start a thread on what people think of couples smashing cake in each other's faces at weddings. That might turn into a 7 pager also!

Yes. I have done the same. And each time I pray and hope that the pet is lost because of a one-off mistake and not something that keeps happening and could have been prevented.

But yes - the help will come either way because who I'm helping is the animal. And I could never stand by just to make a point. Never.

Intact please

(for the record - I hate that tradition - especially when the couple clearly even looks passive aggressive towards each other. Not the way I want to feel on my wedding day.)

 

[packrat]

That cake is fricken amazing. I changed a recipe off something a friend had at a birthday party--it was cut up angel food cake w/strawberries and cream cheese/sugar...I don't know what else. Now it's two layer white cake w/cool whip and strawberries-like shortcake kinda.

I know it was a different situation, I just feel like, we weren't there, and it doesn't help a situation to condemn or place blame. And no, we don't know that a mom would feel a certain way after, like possibly making jokes etc, but we do know how we ourselves would feel, and I think we should go w/that. If she doesn't give a shit and thinks it's the zoos fault or someone else's fault for not doing whatever, then that's on her. Not you, not I. If she is making jokes and thinks it's funny when in truth her child could very well have been killed, then that's on her too. Not you, not I. It's horrible that an animal was killed. We can do nothing to take that back, but we can use it as a teaching tool and see what needs to be done to hopefully try and prevent it from happening again. And when something else happens-b/c it will, there's no possible way to prevent everything bad, we use that as well.

I can't help how she is reacting or not reacting. But I can help how I react. If she is reacting in a manner that I don't approve of, well..I can disapprove to myself, and then do what those actions deserve, which is to ignore.

 

[CJ2008]

I can tell you one thing.

I wouldn't making any sort of jokes.

I've known a few people in my life who make jokes / use humor at the oddest moments (I had a coworker once make a joke when 9/11 was happening right in front of our eyes, we were watching it on TV) and I thought to myself that it kind of fell in line with who she was. I have to admit I didn't like her much and even less in that moment. Even though I know some people use humor when they feel uncomfortable it's hard for me to wrap my head around it.

 

[stracci2000]

Now that it seems the mother is making light of this incident on Facebook, does that change anyone's opinion of her?

I'm sure she's in a good mood over the prospect of a lawsuit against the zoo.

 

[Queenie60]

That cake is fricken amazing. I changed a recipe off something a friend had at a birthday party--it was cut up angel food cake w/strawberries and cream cheese/sugar...I don't know what else. Now it's two layer white cake w/cool whip and strawberries-like shortcake kinda.

I know it was a different situation, I just feel like, we weren't there, and it doesn't help a situation to condemn or place blame. And no, we don't know that a mom would feel a certain way after, like possibly making jokes etc, but we do know how we ourselves would feel, and I think we should go w/that. If she doesn't give a shit and thinks it's the zoos fault or someone else's fault for not doing whatever, then that's on her. Not you, not I. If she is making jokes and thinks it's funny when in truth her child could very well have been killed, then that's on her too. Not you, not I. It's horrible that an animal was killed. We can do nothing to take that back, but we can use it as a teaching tool and see what needs to be done to hopefully try and prevent it from happening again. And when something else happens-b/c it will, there's no possible way to prevent everything bad, we use that as well.

I can't help how she is reacting or not reacting. But I can help how I react. If she is reacting in a manner that I don't approve of, well..I can disapprove to myself, and then do what those actions deserve, which is to ignore.

Very well said - I couldn't agree more.

 

[lovedogs]

WARNING graphic language/swearing, great article about our lack of empathy and the internet though....

https://medium.com/@honeystaysuper/hey-america-do-accidents-happen-anymore-especially-when-a-kid-is-involved-70b0971e5656#.e6mnkj423

This article perfectly sums up my feelings on the entire matter (graphic language included since I have a serious potty mouth )

Thanks, Arkie!

 

[AGBF]

I respect and appreciate all my friends here, and thank you for your very respectful replies to my personal opinion.

I am glad that you felt you were treated with respect, diamondseeker. I believe that too often we speak (or write) quickly about matters that are matters of conscience to many of us here and leave each other feeling left treated with disrespect. I know that I am guilty of having made pronouncements rather than simply stating that certain things are my beliefs.

I do believe that people should speak out when they feel called to by their consciences. Your conscience and mine are in concert on some issues and but not on others. We both believe in God, however. And I was raised (as I have posted here before) going to Quaker meetings. In Quaker meetings people sit facing other people in a circle or square in silence, tranquility, and peace. The surroundings are simple. If someone feels moved to speak, it is felt that God is speaking through him; Quakers refer to this as the inner light. They believe that this is carried within all humans; that is why they have no minister or priest. That is why two people marry each other; they are not married by someone else.

The tranquil surroundings of the meeting help let the inner light within humans out. When we are debating on-line, sometimes things are said quickly and there is not time to allow for our wisdom to speak to us.

It is impossible not to hurry on-line. But when one can take time to reflect, it is wonderful to do so. I am glad that you posted what you did, although I do not agree with all of it. I hope that you will continue to post your conscience.

Deb/AGBF

 

[House Cat]

I have always hated the zoo. Even as a child, I could tell there was something incredibly wrong with the place. As it stunk to high heavens with feces, I would walk through the horrid scene, enclosure after enclosure filled with depressed animals waiting to die or frustrated animals, waiting to escape.

There are no happy, content animals at the zoo. What we do to these animals is completely immoral.


I rarely walk through a crowd of people without feeling other's emotions. I can do the same with animals. The zoo is freakin torture. Animals that are shadows of their wild selves... How do we rationalize this? We say, "oh, but this animal is INJURED! It wouldn't SURVIVE in the wild. It would be EATEN by a PREDATOR!" So be it! Keeping it barely alive and suffering for 10 years for our amusement is disgusting. Give these animals their God-given dignity.

Last night, I watched a youtube video of animals charging their enclosures. Except for one water creature, the rest were primates and cats. This hurt my heart to know how frustrated these animals were, living in such small spaces, unable to act upon their instincts.

At the heart of this issue is the fact that we keep animals in cages in the first place. It's wrong. That gorilla should never have been there, behind any kind of enclosure. We shouldn't have large, undomesticated animals enclosed for us to gawk at for $100 per head. You wanna see a gorilla? Put on yer big boy pants and get into the jungle! Good luck!

The second "tier" of this sick issue that I see is that if we ARE going to lock up these poor animals, the enclosure should not be penetrable by a four year old boy. But, back to that video I watched, a silverback gorilla was behind bulletproof (or very thick) glass, a little girl was beating her chest at him, and the gorilla charged the glass so hard, that he cracked it.

But, if we are going to be such *******s that we are going to keep dangerous, very deadly animals, the kind who will get more and more frustrated by the day, locked up for our amusement, then it is the responsibility of the facility to keep the gawkers safe. I say this because I believe that the zookeepers SEE the frustration of that animal on a daily basis. I believe they know damn well that gorilla is dangerous as hell or that their tiger is showing signs of over the top aggression and needs XYZ to calm down. You can't work with an animal each day and not see signs of anger, stress, upset, etc. Shoot, I walk through the zoo and see it in ten minutes.


Should mom have had a better eye on her kid? Yes. I have no idea how that little guy got in there. That is the stuff nightmares are made of. But I think the moment people started locking up animals for zoos, the statement was already made. "We are totally more important than anyone. We are so important, in fact, that we will lock up other beings and not give a damn about their spirit or their wellbeing. We are arrogant sons of bitches and we never learn."

I won't debate who's life is more important. I think the right choice was made to save the boy, because I think that gorilla was suffering and never should have been there in the first place. I also think a brutal, horrible death of a little boy would have ensued, complete with dismemberment if they hadn't killed that poor gorilla. In my mind, once that boy fell into that enclosure, killing that gorilla was the best possible outcome for everyone involved.

 

[kenny]

Quote from the linked piece ...
https://medium.com/@honeystaysuper/hey-america-do-accidents-happen-anymore-especially-when-a-kid-is-involved-70b0971e5656#.e6mnkj423[/quote]

If you want to know why mothers — especially mothers in this country — are so batshit crazy, maybe it has something to do with the fact that we are blamed for every. god damn. thing. BY STRANGERS.
Work full time? Why are you letting someone else raise your kid
Stay at home mom? Why aren’t you teaching them to be independent go-getters?
Breastfeeding, formula feeding, ****ing wilderness schools, grit, financial savvy, watching them all of the time, watching them none of the time, free range, Tiger Mom-ing ALL OF THE THINGS OH MY GOD INTERNET MAKE UP YOUR ****ING MINDS.

Uh ... the Internet is not one person/entity/force.
It's just a communication tool that's used by many.

People vary, and so will their opinions.
Why do you think you have to appear perfect in the minds of everyone?

IOW, NEWS FLASH! ... There is not one single correct way to be!
Be yourself, and when (not if) someone doesn't like it, ignore them.

The frustration articulated in the above quote is just another sad example of people not getting that people vary.