Opinions on Gorilla killed at Cinn. Zoo

[msop04]

The promise of pie makes the arguments worthwhile

It's nice to be able to agree to disagree. This topic is such a huge hot button for me, I admit, and I tend have a highly emotional response and express my views way too strong for polite company (or so I've been told.) I think it's part and parcel of being a "cuckoo vegan" who was raised in a family of hardcore hunters. It's really fun around our table at Thanksgiving

Goodness... I can only imagine!

 

[AGBF]

A few days ago in another thread a poster wrote:

Deb and HayJoe, Thank You for the Adult way you just handled that misunderstanding/mistake. This, is the way people on this board (and everywhere else) should respond in such situations, instead of resorting to nasty, snarky, insulting cop outs.

To me, there is nothing more admirable than admitting one made a mistake/was wrong.

I wanted to repost this because I thought that WeeOui and msop04 just did the same thing Joe and I did and deserve some recognition for it.

 

[lovedogs]

I too was a teacher for a number of years and no students came to any harm under my care. When my son was 5 or 6 I took him to Taronga Zoo in Sydney. They have a walk in enclosure with huge nets over it you go in take bags off go through two security gates and inside there are Lemurs. There are signs up everywhere don't cross over x or y, follow the guides around the pathway and don't pat the Lemurs. My son is a well behaved child. I have school reports all saying he is one of the best behaved kids in his class. He is in the gifted and talented range for reading and maths at his school. I watch him like a hawk. I don't have multiple kids and I told him not to pat the Lemurs, the guide explained why they have that rule before we went in. The first thing he does when he gets inside the enclosure? He sees a Lemur sitting on something, it's long tail is hanging down. The guide is talking I am holding his hand. He twists out of my grasp, crosses the line faster than I or the guide and comprehend and he grabs the black and white tail of a Lemur.

The guide asks him really loudly to get back behind the line and not to do that, I cross the line grab him and pull him back to where he is supposed to be and tell him repeatedly the Lemurs could bite scratch and hurt him. He has the biggest smile on his face. We get out of there and I explain again why he is not supposed to touch the animals and that was a silly thing to do. He looks at me and he says I know Mum but it's tail was hanging down and I just had to pat it and it was so soft and I really love Lemurs.

He was 5 or 6 he didn't get it at all. The 4 year old would get it even less. No one has ever said I was a bad parent. The simple truth in life is that we cannot control everything 100% of the time things beyond our control and accidents happen. Kids from good, bad and average homes fall over, fall out of trees, get bitten by things, drown, die in various accidents every day.

It's deeply sad that the gorilla was killed, I wish they could have found some way to save him. After the episode with the Lemur, I can put myself into that mother's position and if it were my son I would have jumped over the wall, broken both my legs and put myself between the gorilla and my kid. I don't think there is a right or a wrong answer, thats just the way it would have been. There is no right or wrong side here, it's a sad accident and I am glad the little boy is O.K.

Rather than aiming vitriolic comments at the mother after the event, because I can say as the mother of the kid that grabbed the Lemur, if there was some way a small kid could get into an enclosure regardless of socio economic backgrounds and indeed good and bad parenting a gap in the fence and any way to get into the enclosures in a place that has lots of small children is an accident waiting to happen.

Hopefully other zoos and places that have captive animals will examine what occurred an make sure it doesn't happen again. The gorilla didn't deserve to die. The child should never have been able to get into the enclosure in the first place period.

Great post, Arkie! I admire your honesty about this, and willingness to understand what this mother may have experienced. Very well stated, and you managed to make it cute at the same time Kids are kids, and accidents happen. You sound like a wonderful mother.

Also, agree with Deb/AGBF that WeeOui and Msop04 behaved like adults here, even though this is an EXTREMELY sensitive and hot button topic. Good for you both!

 

[WeeOui]

A few days ago in another thread a poster wrote:

Deb and HayJoe, Thank You for the Adult way you just handled that misunderstanding/mistake. This, is the way people on this board (and everywhere else) should respond in such situations, instead of resorting to nasty, snarky, insulting cop outs.

To me, there is nothing more admirable than admitting one made a mistake/was wrong.

I wanted to repost this because I thought that WeeOui and msop04 just did the same thing Joe and I did and deserve some recognition for it.

There should be some kind of diamond-encrusted trophy for that kind of behavior!

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Very disturbing the way this thread has evolved. I will say that it is incredible that there are people who admit they value the life of the animal over the child. But this is what happens once a society starts down that slippery slope of believing that unborn human babies can be killed at will, people with illnesses can be legally helped to kill themselves in some states, and I fear what is coming next is the withholding of medical treatment for old people so they will die sooner and not be a drain on financial resources. This is not too far from the philosophy of Hitler, actually.

I do believe that humans were created as beings of higher intelligence and were given the task of caring for the earth and the animals. The bad acts of the few do not ever negate the purpose and value of humans in general. I would think one would not have to be religious at all to believe humans are superior to animals. Yet we do have a responsibility to care for and protect animals.

For the record, I was sick about the gorilla the second I heard the news reports. My first thought was WHY didn't they use a sedative (???!!!), but then I heard the reasons they couldn't. I am certain that they were probably grieved over the decision more than anyone on earth. I was not there and cannot judge who all was at fault or whether it was just a total fluke that the child slipped away so fast that it could have happened to anyone. I have seen a child that age (3-5) separated from parents at Disney World. It happens more than you think. I will tell you that I am a very protective mom, but I know when you have more than one child, this can and does happen without the parents being totally negligent. But maybe they were negligent. Maybe the enclosure was not child-proof enough. We can blame all we want, but we can't turn back the clock.

I don't speak up on here very often, but I read a quote just yesterday that altered my thinking a bit.

"Silence in the face of evil is itself evil: Not to speak is to speak. Not to act is to act. " Dietrich Bonhoffer

 

[msop04]

A few days ago in another thread a poster wrote:

Deb and HayJoe, Thank You for the Adult way you just handled that misunderstanding/mistake. This, is the way people on this board (and everywhere else) should respond in such situations, instead of resorting to nasty, snarky, insulting cop outs.

To me, there is nothing more admirable than admitting one made a mistake/was wrong.

I wanted to repost this because I thought that WeeOui and msop04 just did the same thing Joe and I did and deserve some recognition for it.

There should be some kind of diamond-encrusted trophy for that kind of behavior!

Now THAT'S something I will always agree with you about, WeeOui!

 

[packrat]

And I love when someone offers a perspective that I never would have thought of or I find surprising. Packrat is a perfect example of this for me. I always like to see her weigh in because of that. So I get miffed when these threads run off the rails because that part of the experience goes away, and PS starts to more closely resemble the bad part of the twitter sphere. That's not why I come here.

So that's where I'm coming from, and is the spirit in which my post was offered. Pie out.

Aw thanks Rainwood, that's awfully nice of you to say! I usually feel ignored or that nobody gets what I'm trying to say and I'm not able to express myself properly so that makes me feel good.

 

[rainydaze]

And I love when someone offers a perspective that I never would have thought of or I find surprising. Packrat is a perfect example of this for me. I always like to see her weigh in because of that. So I get miffed when these threads run off the rails because that part of the experience goes away, and PS starts to more closely resemble the bad part of the twitter sphere. That's not why I come here.

So that's where I'm coming from, and is the spirit in which my post was offered. Pie out.

Aw thanks Rainwood, that's awfully nice of you to say! I usually feel ignored or that nobody gets what I'm trying to say and I'm not able to express myself properly so that makes me feel good.

Oh pack! I have to thread jack here to add +1 x100 to Rainwood's post.... I always keep an eye out of your posts and read them with interest. I'm guaranteed to click on any thread that I see you've posted on or started. I don't respond or post a lot because I like to listen and contemplate. I often tell DH I'm invisible (here and in real life) so I know the feeling, but I promise you, your voice is heard, and wonderful at that!

 

[stracci2000]

And I adore you too, Packrat!

Anyway, I'm glad we all agree to disagree and have pie.
It's always so enlightening to read all the differing opinions here on PS.

And WeeOui, it is always great to see that photo of Vampire Bill!!

 

[AGBF]

And I love when someone offers a perspective that I never would have thought of or I find surprising. Packrat is a perfect example of this for me. I always like to see her weigh in because of that. So I get miffed when these threads run off the rails because that part of the experience goes away, and PS starts to more closely resemble the bad part of the twitter sphere. That's not why I come here.

So that's where I'm coming from, and is the spirit in which my post was offered. Pie out.

Aw thanks Rainwood, that's awfully nice of you to say! I usually feel ignored or that nobody gets what I'm trying to say and I'm not able to express myself properly so that makes me feel good.

Oh pack! I have to thread jack here to add +1 x100 to Rainwood's post.... I always keep an eye out of your posts and read them with interest. I'm guaranteed to click on any thread that I see you've posted on or started. I don't respond or post a lot because I like to listen and contemplate. I often tell DH I'm invisible (here and in real life) so I know the feeling, but I promise you, your voice is heard, and wonderful at that!

packrat...you are one of the most fascinating posters on Pricescope. You add color.

Hugs,
(((packrat)))
Deb

 

[purplesparklies]

I am absolutely horrified by the some of the responses in this thread - well, I AM a mother and I cannot fathom making another mother watch as her child is torn limb from limb right in front of her. Are you all insane, or high, or something? What where people supposed to do, just hang out and watch as a human being, a child -who, by the way, is innocent in this too - was slowly and brutally killed right in front of them?

I love animals, and I'm very sorry this beautiful creature had to be destroyed - but I'm scared sh!tless by people who think the child shouldn't have been saved.

Four year old boys are a dime a dozen????? What the…

Agreed. Some of these responses make me sick to my stomach. Unbelievable.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[purplesparklies]

Very disturbing the way this thread has evolved. I will say that it is incredible that there are people who admit they value the life of the animal over the child. But this is what happens once a society starts down that slippery slope of believing that unborn human babies can be killed at will, people with illnesses can be legally helped to kill themselves in some states, and I fear what is coming next is the withholding of medical treatment for old people so they will die sooner and not be a drain on financial resources. This is not too far from the philosophy of Hitler, actually.

I do believe that humans were created as beings of higher intelligence and were given the task of caring for the earth and the animals. The bad acts of the few do not ever negate the purpose and value of humans in general. I would think one would not have to be religious at all to believe humans are superior to animals. Yet we do have a responsibility to care for and protect animals.

For the record, I was sick about the gorilla the second I heard the news reports. My first thought was WHY didn't they use a sedative (???!!!), but then I heard the reasons they couldn't. I am certain that they were probably grieved over the decision more than anyone on earth. I was not there and cannot judge who all was at fault or whether it was just a total fluke that the child slipped away so fast that it could have happened to anyone. I have seen a child that age (3-5) separated from parents at Disney World. It happens more than you think. I will tell you that I am a very protective mom, but I know when you have more than one child, this can and does happen without the parents being totally negligent. But maybe they were negligent. Maybe the enclosure was not child-proof enough. We can blame all we want, but we can't turn back the clock.

I don't speak up on here very often, but I read a quote just yesterday that altered my thinking a bit.

"Silence in the face of evil is itself evil: Not to speak is to speak. Not to act is to act. " Dietrich Bonhoffer

Thank you.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Gypsy]

Interesting where this thread went after yesterday.

And I am so happy to see that pie was the solution. Reminds me of when I first started on PS. Boy was there a LOT of pie! Several times a week it was needed.

I am going to say that despite the pie, I could not disagree more with the first two paragraphs of DS's post above (but I agree with the third about how easy it is to loose a kid. That's another reason why I just wouldn't go to any zoos or anywhere there is such a risk to both children and animals coming in contact in this manner). But I respect her as a person and consider her a friend, and that's the strength of this forum AND of pie.

To me, the chocolate silk looks like scrumptious, so I would like a slice of that, please.

And I will offer, the best fruit and best nut pies I've ever had (and if you are in the Bay Area you should really go have a slice):

Blueberry and chocolate pecan pies from the Palo Alto Creamery (I really need to get a slice before the diet starts up again). Hmm, I think this year I am going to get the blueberry pie for my birthday instead of cake. It's that good!

Enjoy!

 

[Matata]

Blueberry and chocolate pecan pies from the Palo Alto Creamery (I really need to get a slice before the diet starts up again). Hmm, I think this year I am going to get the blueberry pie for my birthday instead of cake. It's that good!

Enjoy!

I hope the fruit pies are baked in a different oven than the nut pies. Cauz, ya know, bad things can happen when fruits and nuts share the same oven

My stepson just got a job with Google. When we visit, I'll try to get in touch with you and we can perhaps meet for pie.

 

[Gypsy]

Blueberry and chocolate pecan pies from the Palo Alto Creamery (I really need to get a slice before the diet starts up again). Hmm, I think this year I am going to get the blueberry pie for my birthday instead of cake. It's that good!

Enjoy!

I hope the fruit pies are baked in a different oven than the nut pies. Cauz, ya know, bad things can happen when fruits and nuts share the same oven

My stepson just got a job with Google. When we visit, I'll try to get in touch with you and we can perhaps meet for pie.

I would LOVE LOVE LOVE that!

Let me know when and I'll be there.

I don't know about the oven issue. They have a number of them (the bakery is open).

 

[kenny]

BBC is running a piece titled, "Are gorillas a danger to people?"

http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20160531-how-violent-are-gorillas-really

 

[Laila619]

Why couldn't one or more zoo employees have jumped in the enclosure with food or something to try to distract Harambe and get the boy to safety? They didn't even try. Just really sad and pissed that Harambe was killed. It was so unnecessary and senseless.

 

[monarch64]

Why couldn't one or more zoo employees have jumped in the enclosure with food or something to try to distract Harambe and get the boy to safety? They didn't even try. Just really sad and pissed that Harambe was killed. It was so unnecessary and senseless.

The consensus seems to be that there wasn't time. When Harambe started dragging the boy through the water everyone really panicked (and rightly so, watching the video I was very disturbed to see that) so the decision was made to stop the animal by means of shooting to kill. The whole situation was the perfect storm composed of events, actions, chaos and fear. I'm with you, Laila, I wish there had been the chance for further effort on the zoo's part to deter or distract the gorilla via other means. Not to sound acquiescent, but what's done is done and all we can do now is try to learn from what happened and try to make sure this never happens again.

 

[monarch64]

BBC is running a piece titled, "Are gorillas a danger to people?"

http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20160531-how-violent-are-gorillas-really

Kenny, that's a really good take on gorilla behavior, and fascinating.

I saw this tonight and wanted to share:

http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=they+released+14+wolves+into+a+park&&view=detail&mid=5DBBABA8891C45F4B9B95DBBABA8891C45F4B9B9&FORM=VRDGAR

It gives me hope that people will someday understand the value of animals and that we are all connected. The health of the planet we inhabit together is dependent upon the circle of life, not the vertical food chain. I believe we humans have a different, not superior, form of intelligence and therefore have a responsibility to steward and protect, not assert dominance over other living things. I appreciate all the responses here, whether I agree with them or not. I hope we can all learn something from each other. I think it's like anything in life--we can listen and learn, or we can choose to remain ignorant to others' beliefs and turn a blind eye to what's happening for the sake of what we've always been told and being adverse to change. And if I had a recipe for "Kumbaya Pie" I'd share it, plus a picture. But I don't. I also don't have a recipe for eyeroll pie, which is too bad because I know some here would eat it up right now.

 

[chrono]

Like Gypsy, I disagree with DS's first 2 paragraphs but agree with the 3rd paragraph. I also respect her very much as a PS poster and so I will agree to disagree. Like Monarch, I too feel that we are stewards of the planet earth, not that we are better or superior to all other living beings. Unfortunately, the human race has been a very poor steward. I respect and accept opposing views to mine, so please do not take offense at mine.

 

[Gypsy]

Like Gypsy, I disagree with DS's first 2 paragraphs but agree with the 3rd paragraph. I also respect her very much as a PS poster and so I will agree to disagree. Like Monarch, I too feel that we are stewards of the planet earth, not that we are better or superior to all other living beings. Unfortunately, the human race has been a very poor steward.

I love "stewards"... that's it exactly.

And we have failed utterly in that duty, unfortunately.

 

[arkieb1]

WARNING graphic language/swearing, great article about our lack of empathy and the internet though....

https://medium.com/@honeystaysuper/hey-america-do-accidents-happen-anymore-especially-when-a-kid-is-involved-70b0971e5656#.e6mnkj423

 

[AGBF]

WARNING graphic language/swearing, great article about our lack of empathy and the internet though....

arkie-

I haven't read this linked article yet, but I wanted to tell you how much I enjoyed your posting about your son and the lemur. It was really well written and thoughtful. Thank you so much for taking the time to think that through; write it all out; and post it in this thread.

Deb

 

[diamondseeker2006]

I respect and appreciate all my friends here, and thank you for your very respectful replies to my personal opinion.

I am off to Vegas soon!

 

[chrono]

I am off to Vegas soon!

Have loads of fun!

 

[Ellen]

I too was a teacher for a number of years and no students came to any harm under my care. When my son was 5 or 6 I took him to Taronga Zoo in Sydney. They have a walk in enclosure with huge nets over it you go in take bags off go through two security gates and inside there are Lemurs. There are signs up everywhere don't cross over x or y, follow the guides around the pathway and don't pat the Lemurs. My son is a well behaved child. I have school reports all saying he is one of the best behaved kids in his class. He is in the gifted and talented range for reading and maths at his school. I watch him like a hawk. I don't have multiple kids and I told him not to pat the Lemurs, the guide explained why they have that rule before we went in. The first thing he does when he gets inside the enclosure? He sees a Lemur sitting on something, it's long tail is hanging down. The guide is talking I am holding his hand. He twists out of my grasp, crosses the line faster than I or the guide and comprehend and he grabs the black and white tail of a Lemur.

The guide asks him really loudly to get back behind the line and not to do that, I cross the line grab him and pull him back to where he is supposed to be and tell him repeatedly the Lemurs could bite scratch and hurt him. He has the biggest smile on his face. We get out of there and I explain again why he is not supposed to touch the animals and that was a silly thing to do. He looks at me and he says I know Mum but it's tail was hanging down and I just had to pat it and it was so soft and I really love Lemurs.

He was 5 or 6 he didn't get it at all. The 4 year old would get it even less. No one has ever said I was a bad parent. The simple truth in life is that we cannot control everything 100% of the time things beyond our control and accidents happen. Kids from good, bad and average homes fall over, fall out of trees, get bitten by things, drown, die in various accidents every day.

It's deeply sad that the gorilla was killed, I wish they could have found some way to save him. After the episode with the Lemur, I can put myself into that mother's position and if it were my son I would have jumped over the wall, broken both my legs and put myself between the gorilla and my kid. I don't think there is a right or a wrong answer, thats just the way it would have been. There is no right or wrong side here, it's a sad accident and I am glad the little boy is O.K.

Rather than aiming vitriolic comments at the mother after the event, because I can say as the mother of the kid that grabbed the Lemur, if there was some way a small kid could get into an enclosure regardless of socio economic backgrounds and indeed good and bad parenting a gap in the fence and any way to get into the enclosures in a place that has lots of small children is an accident waiting to happen.

Hopefully other zoos and places that have captive animals will examine what occurred an make sure it doesn't happen again. The gorilla didn't deserve to die. The child should never have been able to get into the enclosure in the first place period.

This.

Thank you for posting your experience. It illustrates so beautifully what some cannot understand, for whatever reason. (and I'm so glad nothing happened to your inquisitive little one!)

 

[Ellen]

Very disturbing the way this thread has evolved. I will say that it is incredible that there are people who admit they value the life of the animal over the child. But this is what happens once a society starts down that slippery slope of believing that unborn human babies can be killed at will, people with illnesses can be legally helped to kill themselves in some states, and I fear what is coming next is the withholding of medical treatment for old people so they will die sooner and not be a drain on financial resources. This is not too far from the philosophy of Hitler, actually.

I do believe that humans were created as beings of higher intelligence and were given the task of caring for the earth and the animals. The bad acts of the few do not ever negate the purpose and value of humans in general. I would think one would not have to be religious at all to believe humans are superior to animals. Yet we do have a responsibility to care for and protect animals.

For the record, I was sick about the gorilla the second I heard the news reports. My first thought was WHY didn't they use a sedative (???!!!), but then I heard the reasons they couldn't. I am certain that they were probably grieved over the decision more than anyone on earth. I was not there and cannot judge who all was at fault or whether it was just a total fluke that the child slipped away so fast that it could have happened to anyone. I have seen a child that age (3-5) separated from parents at Disney World. It happens more than you think. I will tell you that I am a very protective mom, but I know when you have more than one child, this can and does happen without the parents being totally negligent. But maybe they were negligent. Maybe the enclosure was not child-proof enough. We can blame all we want, but we can't turn back the clock.

I don't speak up on here very often, but I read a quote just yesterday that altered my thinking a bit.

"Silence in the face of evil is itself evil: Not to speak is to speak. Not to act is to act. " Dietrich Bonhoffer

Thank you.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

+1

Well said ds.

 

[Ellen]

WARNING graphic language/swearing, great article about our lack of empathy and the internet though....

https://medium.com/@honeystaysuper/hey-america-do-accidents-happen-anymore-especially-when-a-kid-is-involved-70b0971e5656#.e6mnkj423

Fanastic article, except for the "colorful" language.

I have seen this coming for a long time. It is always someone's fault now. Accidents don't exist anymore. God help us.

 

[Ellen]

Deb, I agree, kudos to those handling disagreements respectfully.

 

[smitcompton]

Hi,

Thank you again to Junebug. Please, don't let anyone make you think you have somehow crossed a line, when you express thinking that is both principled and logical. Anyone who has dealt with children knows it could happen to anyone of us. It was a tragic occurrence, but the Zoo did the best it could under the circumstance. And it is quite jarring to read some of these posts.

I am not so easily swayed by pie.

Annette