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Old Mine Brilliant HELP

ash12345

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jul 19, 2011
Messages
8
I am thinking about purchasing a GIA certified Old Mine Brilliant Diamond. The specs are:

shape: Old Mine Brilliant
carat: 2.02
color: G
clarity: VS2
Polish: excellent
Symmetry: very good
table: 53%
depth 68.8%
culet: slightly large

I have no idea what ballpark of price I should be looking for this, because it has been tough to find prices for other old mine brilliants to compare it to. Does anyone have any idea??

Any info would be greatly appreciated!!
 

diagem

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Oct 21, 2004
Messages
4,978
ash12345|1311111034|2972503 said:
I am thinking about purchasing a GIA certified Old Mine Brilliant Diamond. The specs are:

shape: Old Mine Brilliant
carat: 2.02
color: G
clarity: VS2
Polish: excellent
Symmetry: very good
table: 53%
depth 68.8%
culet: slightly large

I have no idea what ballpark of price I should be looking for this, because it has been tough to find prices for other old mine brilliants to compare it to. Does anyone have any idea??

Any info would be greatly appreciated!!
Depending on it's appearance..., most OMB's are cut differently from one to the other. Any pics?
 

ash12345

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jul 19, 2011
Messages
8
No pics unfortunately! The only other info I have is that its measurements are 7.83 by 7.13 by 4.90mm. It is a great stone, I have seen it in person, I'm just not sure what sort of price I should be looking for...
 

diagem

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Oct 21, 2004
Messages
4,978
ash12345|1311112328|2972518 said:
No pics unfortunately! The only other info I have is that its measurements are 7.83 by 7.13 by 4.90mm. It is a great stone, I have seen it in person, I'm just not sure what sort of price I should be looking for...
Given current market conditions it's hard to pinpoint a number..., especially without visualizing the stone.
Realistically the value of a great OMB should be priced just below or equivalent to present round brilliant prices.
Seems like a lot of people won't agree but due to realistic market conditions, that would be my professional opinion.
Again, we are talking no pictures but based on your impression and tone.
 

ash12345

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jul 19, 2011
Messages
8
I see - well that is definitely helpful! So a safe ballpark could be around 20-28 or so, from what I can tell from this site and others such as bluenile, GOG, and engagement rings direct.

I appreciate your help, very new to all this!
 

kelpie

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Jan 8, 2008
Messages
2,362
I'm no help on price but if it is a real antique and not a repro the fact that it is G makes it very rare. Maybe there's a premium beyond the normal price associated with the color because old cuts are usually in the light yellow range and warmer.
 

Rockdiamond

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Jan 7, 2009
Messages
8,404
DiaGem|1311113070|2972527 said:
ash12345|1311112328|2972518 said:
No pics unfortunately! The only other info I have is that its measurements are 7.83 by 7.13 by 4.90mm. It is a great stone, I have seen it in person, I'm just not sure what sort of price I should be looking for...
Given current market conditions it's hard to pinpoint a number..., especially without visualizing the stone.
Realistically the value of a great OMB should be priced just below or equivalent to present round brilliant prices.
Seems like a lot of people won't agree but due to realistic market conditions, that would be my professional opinion.
Again, we are talking no pictures but based on your impression and tone.
+1 on this.

Common sense might dictate that an older cut would go for a lot less- but the market does not bear this out- especially with stones graded by GIA.

Kelpie also has a great point- old cut stones of high color clarity are practically non existent- mainly due to people re-cutting them to RBC to achieve higher prices- which would seem to contradict that part about old stones going for prices similar to modern RBC's

But the lack of these stones seems in larger sizes, and higher qualities- may have the pendulum swinging back the other way.
 

ash12345

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jul 19, 2011
Messages
8
The diamond grading report is from Aug 2010, that along with the fact that it is a an Old Mine Brilliant make me think that it is not an antique stone, but a stone cut in an old style. Good to know that a stone of that specs might be rarer though - as it'll make the ring much more unique!
 

Stone-cold11

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Sep 9, 2008
Messages
14,069
ash12345|1311164982|2972855 said:
The diamond grading report is from Aug 2010, that along with the fact that it is a an Old Mine Brilliant make me think that it is not an antique stone, but a stone cut in an old style. Good to know that a stone of that specs might be rarer though - as it'll make the ring much more unique!
Anyone can send their stones to GIA to be graded. Age of the report has nothing to do with how long ago the stone is cut.
 

maplefemme

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
May 12, 2011
Messages
874
Stone-cold11|1311166108|2972870 said:
ash12345|1311164982|2972855 said:
The diamond grading report is from Aug 2010, that along with the fact that it is a an Old Mine Brilliant make me think that it is not an antique stone, but a stone cut in an old style. Good to know that a stone of that specs might be rarer though - as it'll make the ring much more unique!
Anyone can send their stones to GIA to be graded. Age of the report has nothing to do with how long ago the stone is cut.
Exactly, my stone is an Old European Cut that's never been graded, I'm sending it to GIA next month.
Old stone - new report.
 

ash12345

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jul 19, 2011
Messages
8
Ah ok - fair point and good to know. Well the quote I'm getting for this was around 23K - obviously a ton of money, so thats why I wanted to see what other people thought about it. I was given the quote from a diamond wholesaler in NYC. I saw a ton (prob around 15-20) diamonds - a good mix of cushions and rounds, before I settled on cushion shape. The old mine brilliant just really stuck out to me when I saw it compared to the other cushions - very classic and unique looking.
 

maplefemme

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
May 12, 2011
Messages
874
ash12345|1311167865|2972888 said:
Ah ok - fair point and good to know. Well the quote I'm getting for this was around 23K - obviously a ton of money, so thats why I wanted to see what other people thought about it. I was given the quote from a diamond wholesaler in NYC. I saw a ton (prob around 15-20) diamonds - a good mix of cushions and rounds, before I settled on cushion shape. The old mine brilliant just really stuck out to me when I saw it compared to the other cushions - very classic and unique looking.
Brian Gavin, GOG, Leon Mege, all have G VS2 cushions in the 2-2.05ct for better pricing, I'd shop around.
 

ash12345

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jul 19, 2011
Messages
8
Oh really? because when I was looking at online sites I found that the prices were pretty comparable - these are the ones I was comparing to:

GOG: August vintage, G, VS2, 2.02c - 33,179
GOG: August vintage, I, VS2, 2.02c - 21,350
GOG: Cushion, G, VS2, 2.01c - 22,716
Blue Nile: Cushion, G, VS2, 2.01c - 19,922
Blue Nile: Cushion, G, VS2, 2.00c - 21,342
Blue Nile: Cushion, G, VS2, 2.02c - 21,963
Blue Nile: Cushion, G, VS2, 2.01c - 23,297
Blue Nile: Cushion, G, VS2, 2.00c - 23,651


So this isnt a huge sample I guess, but they mostly seem around the 20-24 range. Its hard to tell with cushions though since they all seem to have a life of their own!
 

maplefemme

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
May 12, 2011
Messages
874
ash12345|1311170164|2972911 said:
Oh really? because when I was looking at online sites I found that the prices were pretty comparable - these are the ones I was comparing to:

GOG: August vintage, G, VS2, 2.02c - 33,179
GOG: August vintage, I, VS2, 2.02c - 21,350
GOG: Cushion, G, VS2, 2.01c - 22,716
Blue Nile: Cushion, G, VS2, 2.01c - 19,922
Blue Nile: Cushion, G, VS2, 2.00c - 21,342
Blue Nile: Cushion, G, VS2, 2.02c - 21,963
Blue Nile: Cushion, G, VS2, 2.01c - 23,297
Blue Nile: Cushion, G, VS2, 2.00c - 23,651


So this isnt a huge sample I guess, but they mostly seem around the 20-24 range. Its hard to tell with cushions though since they all seem to have a life of their own!
Very true, I'd not buy a cushion from BN. You really need to see them, especially if you are wanting a more antique look.
Have you checked out JbEG? (Jewels by Erica Grace) if they have nothing on site they can also help source if you give them your specs.
 

dreamer_dachsie

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Dec 16, 2007
Messages
24,364
Can you find a picture in the SMTB forum that has the facet pattern/appearance of the diamond you are considering? It would help us to have an idea of its type perhaps.
 

ash12345

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jul 19, 2011
Messages
8
Also, if anyone has any advice to give about old mine brilliants in general it would be much appreciated! Ive tried to find some pros and cons in my research but I have found the information hard to come by. When I went with friends to look at this stone, everyone unanimously preferred it over other cushion brilliants with similar specs - but I'm just worried that I wont get as much sparkle/brilliance/eye-catchiness with this type of shape...
 

bunnysparkle

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jul 12, 2010
Messages
22
If it gives you any peace of mind, I have a 1.56 G VS1 OMB, and it gets compliments all the time by random strangers about how sparkly and shiny it is. My friends always tell me to stop blinding them--especially when the lighting is right.

I have it set in a regular 4 prong modified cathedral setting, and it's really beautiful. I'm really happy I chose this stone over other cushions. It's really unique and I always get questions about what type of cut it is.
 

NARRISHKEIT

Rough_Rock
Trade
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Jul 20, 2011
Messages
98
DiaGem said:
Realistically the value of a great OMB should be priced just below or equivalent to present round brilliant prices.
Tomorrow's Old Mine Brilliant will cost almost as much to produce as today's Round Brilliant that is the argument being put forth.

The problem with that argument is tomorrow's Round Brilliant will also cost more than today's Round Brilliant.

Once rough prices stabilize rounds will continue to maintain a 15 - 40% premium over fancy shapes (like a generic Cushion Brilliant or Old Mine Brilliant) it continues to require a bigger piece of rough to produce the same carat round as the same weight generic OMB cushion.

I am sure niche sellers of antique Cushions and fancy shapes would be well served by an additional premium being placed on Fancy shapes in times of rough price increases but I'm not sure the market or consumers see it that way.

OP check your prices independently, the PS search and checking online inventory will give you a good feel on market pricing.
 

diagem

Ideal_Rock
Trade
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Oct 21, 2004
Messages
4,978
NARRISHKEIT|1311200877|2973347 said:
DiaGem said:
Realistically the value of a great OMB should be priced just below or equivalent to present round brilliant prices.
Tomorrow's Old Mine Brilliant will cost almost as much to produce as today's Round Brilliant that is the argument being put forth.

The problem with that argument is tomorrow's Round Brilliant will also cost more than today's Round Brilliant.

Once rough prices stabilize rounds will continue to maintain a 15 - 40% premium over fancy shapes (like a generic Cushion Brilliant or Old Mine Brilliant) it continues to require a bigger piece of rough to produce the same carat round as the same weight generic OMB cushion.

I am sure niche sellers of antique Cushions and fancy shapes would be well served by an additional premium being placed on Fancy shapes in times of rough price increases but I'm not sure the market or consumers see it that way.

OP check your prices independently, the PS search and checking online inventory will give you a good feel on market pricing.
Thank you for trying to explain my words but I am not talking about present VS future prices.
15% is just (about) below present round prices. No argument here.
 

NARRISHKEIT

Rough_Rock
Trade
Joined
Jul 20, 2011
Messages
98
I don't see the equivalency in production costs between a round and an antique cushion and I don't see proof of the market pricing them equally either.

Ash12345 it is equally or even more likely that despite the grading term Old Mine Brilliant on the GIA report, the stone you are considering is neither rare, nor old nor an antique. The cutting style may be representative of vintage stones but that is as far as GIA has indicated on their report.

As mentioned earlier most higher color antique stones (J and above) have already been recut into rounds.
The OMB on that report found today with those proportions is more likely to be recently cut as a reproduction of the vintage cutting style rather than as a true antique.
 

LGK

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Nov 27, 2007
Messages
2,975
Ditto, I would strongly suspect it's a new cut stone. If that matters to you at all.

Anyway. IMO, a well cut (and that's important- not every OMC is well cut) antique or antique style cushion is fantastic. You get these eye catching large chunks of fire, which is absolutely beautiful to my eye. Personally I much prefer the patterning on antique or antique style cuts- it's more... I don't know, soft and romantic or somethng. The crushed ice and/or splintery type of modern cushion looks more hard edged to me, even with the rounder edges they look very modern to my eye. Totally personal preference, but there is no doubt that an antique or antique repro cut can be awesomely gorgeous.

If you've seen this one in person, compared it to other cushions, and like the look, you are ahead of the game... it's hard to shop for antique (style) cushions online without pics. Impossible in fact; just the fact that it's an OMB is no guarantee it's a great cut. The antique style OMB/antique cushion cut is definitely getting more popular and you do see more of the modern ones on the market- but they're still overwhelmingly outnumbered by the much different looking modified cushions, the crushed ice ones.

If you can't compare this stone to a similar faceted antique style cushion that you *know* is well cut, here's how I evaluate antique stones myself. I look for even fire return across the whole stone- you want the center facets to return fire, and the outer ones too. Often, you'll get one or the other, with the other being kind of a dead zone- you know, the facets just sit there doing nothing. You *really* do not want the center to look dark. Evaluate it in different lighting- *not* just the awesome jewelry store lighting- even crap looks nice under those lights! I'm pretty sure you can check for drastic leakage like this: put it over some colored paper and see if it's showing through noticeably, especially under the table or the outer edge.

Even better try to get an ASET scope and learn to use it- they're quite useful for checking fancy cuts for how the light is returning to your eye. But, if that's a little much for you, the above should at least help ensure you get a sparkly, attractive diamond, if not necessarily the creme de la creme like many here prefer. And I don't mean that in a negative way- honestly, for the average person who isn't a diamond cut nut like many PS folks, there is such a thing as "pretty enough", especially in fancy cuts... as a lover of antique stones, I simply use my eyes to evaluate them and decide if it's attractive enough for me, no special tools required. (Though I do have a lot of experience weeding through them and I know what I like- you do have to train your eye a bit.) All that really matters is that YOU love the stone!
 

diagem

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Oct 21, 2004
Messages
4,978
NARRISHKEIT|1311207102|2973420 said:
I don't see the equivalency in production costs between a round and an antique cushion and I don't see proof of the market pricing them equally either.
Dont understand your general view..., please explain equivalency in production costs when you compare rounds and antique cushions?
How would you define an antique cushion as of trying to calculate yield vs rounds in production?
What is an antique cushion?
 

NARRISHKEIT

Rough_Rock
Trade
Joined
Jul 20, 2011
Messages
98
Also, if anyone has any advice to give about old mine brilliants in general it would be much appreciated! Ive tried to find some pros and cons in my research but I have found the information hard to come by. When I went with friends to look at this stone, everyone unanimously preferred it over other cushion brilliants with similar specs - but I'm just worried that I wont get as much sparkle/brilliance/eye-catchiness with this type of shape...
A cushion with a vintage 8 main facet structure like the one you posted can be called by GIA as OMB or Cushion Brilliant.
The determining factor may be only the culet size or table size to differentiate between the two names, the appearance of both may be strikingly similar despite different names on GIA grading reports.

What I think you are you are really stating is you are drawn to the larger unbroken facets or "chunky" facets.
You can get this look in either a CB or OMB but are unlikely to see this in most Cushion Modified Brilliants.
 
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