"old english" vs "old european" cuts

[zerj]

I gave my wife my great-grandmother's engagement ring which has a 1/3 caret diamond in it which I assume is one of these cuts. My mother said it was an 'old english' cut but she probably just got that from the mall employee who retouched up the prongs about 20 years ago. I had assumed that these two terms were synonyms but then I was looking around and saw several diamond reports that listed the cut as 'old english' Additionally I saw it stated somewhere that old euro cuts all have a culet. Our stone appears to be very circular (which would rule out old mine cut I believe) but does not have a culet. So now I am wondering just exactly what it is.

Any thoughts?

2nd question. This ring is on its last legs one prong tip has broken off, 2 others appear cracked and two of the side diamonds are cracked. I talked to a couple of local jewelers and they suggested throwing away the old setting and rebuilding completely. I decided to get my wife an upgrade as I never had to spend any money on the first one 20 years ago and I can afford to now. We are going with a ring based on this http://www.jamesallen.com/diamond.asp?find=1&cid=130&item=1091996

So we don't really need another engagement ring. I'd say earrings but it seems like it would be pretty tough to match this with any other stone. What would you do?

 

[surfgirl]

I have no idea what an "old english" cut is as I've never heard of it. You mention no open culet (the hole in the middle when you look down into the stone). Just about all old antique stones that haven't been re cut should, I believe, have an open culet - both OMC (old mine cuts) as well as OECs (Old European cuts) and Transitional Cuts. You mention your stone being round so that means it's probably not an OMC, which were more pillow/cushion shaped. But the fact that it has no open culet is odd. Can you post some good photos and close ups here so we can see it?

ETA: Old English might be referring to the setting as opposed to the stone cut?

 

[zerj]

I'll try to take some photos tonight as for old english being a style I saw this old post on these forums referencing an old english stone and it has a certificate from "The Precious Stone Lab" in London that references this cut

https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/my-2ct-old-english-cut-e-ring.9055/

 

[surfgirl]

Yes, I saw that too but again, I''ve never heard anyone refer to a cut in this way. Perhaps Dave Atlas can weigh in on this...

 

[Shaninj4]

"The half brilliant, single, or old English cut is the simplest form of the brilliant and is now generally employed for small stones; when the top is cut so as to form an eight-pointed star it is called the English single cut."

http://www.jjkent.com/articles/styles-diamond-cuts.htm

 

[surfgirl]

Hmmm, that description sounds more like a rose cut, which is what that stone sort of looks like that you showed above...?

 

[zerj]

Well I thought a rose cut does not have a table. It comes to a point on the top.

However an 8 point star doesn''t seem to rule out much. This diamond does have a table and connected to it are 8 triangluar facets, so it could fit that description but so would the old english cut

http://www.tofeljewelers.com/pics_large/oldminecuts.html

or for that matter the modern round brilliant.

Still thats an interesting reference I hadn''t seen. It''s interesting they don''t mention the old european cut. That would have been perhaps helpful.

 

[anne_h]

I''ve never heard of Old English either, and I have pondered antique cuts often.

Could it be another name for "single cut" (may also infrequently be called "swiss cut") ?

Anne

 

[CDNinNYC]

Don't know if this chart has been posted already (if yes, please excuse the double post!) but I thought it might be helpful.

ETA: Also came across this:

"It has been suggested (Tillander, 1995) that the term Old English Cut be reserved for the beautiful round brilliants cut in England during the late 1700s and mid 1800s. At the time, London was a center for extremely fine diamond cutting.

The term Old European Cut should be used for the less fine, more haphazardly cut round brilliants from the other major cutting centers of the 19th century. Cutting these stones was less labor intensive and preserved more of the original weight of the rough crystal.

The English cutters were not able to compete with the less costly, readily available Old European stones. Faced with public indifference to cut quality, production of Old English Cuts dwindled toward the middle part of the 19th century.

As an aside, later in the century the tradition of the Old English Cuts inspired the work of Henry Morse and later Marcel Tolkowsky which led to the American Ideal Cut and today's modern ideal cuts." (Art Anderson, Bijoux Extraordinaire, Ltd)

 

[zerj]

Acutually that is pretty helpful. I would say right off that the crown on the gem we have is proportioned a lot more like the 'old english' graph than the 'old european'. The table on mine is larger than the old euro. However it is interesting to note that they appear to be the same 'cut' just differently proportioned. So the difference may be more like a trade name than an actual cut difference.

Interesting note. The first reference I ever saw to the old english cut linked to by me above actually looks more like an old euro cut according to this chart.

 

[DiamondExpert]

The diamond figures above are taken from a great book, "Diamonds", by Eric Bruton, 2nd Ed., 1978, from p.220-221. There is a full chapter (Chapt 10) on the History of Cuts (pp.210-234) with pages of old cut and their evolution.

I have found this book to be a valuable source of diamond history up until the mid-70''s.

 

[surfgirl]

Seeing that photo, I remember seeing it here before but I never hear anyone talk about the first three cuts, like ever...Interesting...Thanks for the memory jog.