Old Cut Nuts... Have you switched from RB to Old Stone?

[TravelingGal]

Since it's the onset of summer, maybe an ice cream comparison would be apropos.

If the only two check boxes for ice cream were vanilla and chocolate, and I were sitting with a bowl of ice cream made with imitation vanilla and asked which of the two boxes my bowl of ice cream would fit into......well, it's more vanilla than chocolate so I'd pick vanilla. But for me, imitation vanilla doesn't take quite like real vanilla.

Yes, but IS imitation vanilla STILL vanilla? Is it even ice cream? Yes, I would say it IS vanilla AND ice cream. Even if there were many checkboxes: strawberry, mango, lemon, KIWI, you would still check the box as vanilla, would you not?



Btw, I'm going to have to drill Mara................

 

[aljdewey]

Another option is the lab could have called the AVR a "modified round brilliant." That's what they call different style rounds like Solasferas, Star 129s, Leos, etc.

I dunno - for me, the Solasferas, Leos, etc and more like strawberry - not even close enough to call vanilla.

Imitation vanilla is still closer to vanilla than it is to strawberry or chocolate......but it's still not the same as real vanilla. That doesn't, by the way, mean that real vanilla is better than imitation. Some people may actually prefer the imitation due to better consistency of flavor, more muted and less bold then real vanilla, etc.........but for real vanilla lovers, imitation is close but not the same thing.

 

[aljdewey]

Yes, but IS imitation vanilla STILL vanilla? Is it even ice cream? Yes, I would say it IS vanilla AND ice cream. Even if there were many checkboxes: strawberry, mango, lemon, KIWI, you would still check the box as vanilla, would you not?

Of course - and that's what I said, too. But just because it bears the same name doesn't mean it tastes the same. For some folks, it may very well be. Some folks don't taste the difference.....but others do.

Maybe it would resonate better this way: You can buy organic whipped cream in the can that's just cream and sugar and vanilla. To me, though, what comes out of the can doesn't taste remotely the same to what I produce in the kitchen when I whip the cream, sugar and vanilla by hand. It has a different taste, a different mouth feel.

By definition, both are whipped cream. If I were serve the canned version on top of desserts, everyone would identify it as whipped cream. Both are even all natural whipped cream.....but they don't taste the same. They just don't.

(It would probably be muddying the discussion to also point out that while I do prefer the taste of the cream I whip myself, I do ALSO enjoy the fact that what I prefer *also* costs less to make, huh?)

 

[TravelingGal]

Yes, but IS imitation vanilla STILL vanilla? Is it even ice cream? Yes, I would say it IS vanilla AND ice cream. Even if there were many checkboxes: strawberry, mango, lemon, KIWI, you would still check the box as vanilla, would you not?

Of course - and that's what I said, too. But just because it bears the same name doesn't mean it tastes the same. For some folks, it may very well be. Some folks don't taste the difference.....but others do.

Maybe it would resonate better this way: You can buy organic whipped cream in the can that's just cream and sugar and vanilla. To me, though, what comes out of the can doesn't taste remotely the same to what I produce in the kitchen when I whip the cream, sugar and vanilla by hand. It has a different taste, a different mouth feel.

By definition, both are whipped cream. Both are even all natural whipped cream.....but they don't taste the same. They just don't.

So then, by DEFINITION, is a AVC an OEC? To me, it does look more like an older cut vs a modern RB.

 

[Rhino]

I apologize if my participation in this thread has offended anyone, especially you Mara. I know you a long time and my intent was to help with true and accurate information.

 

[ariel144]

John to me the AVC is just a different facet pattern ideal round. Chunky facet ideal Round. MRB can trace their history back to OECs too. I do think they are much close to a MRB than an OEC, exactly because they are perfected OECs. I won't be buying an Octavia anytime either. It's an idealized square emerald, but it's not for me (although I do prefer it to the AVCs I've seen). Neither are for me and I've seen them in person. I don't like the 'idealized' line of fancies. They lose their charm for me. And the AVC becomes cookie cutter exactly because of the uniformity that is required by a branded line and a set facet pattern demands and precision cutting standards. (I do not think Octavia's are cookie cutter, there is more variation in them).

Huge +1 to this. Exactly.

It is very interesting to me that none of you long time members in PS seem to ever refer to MRB whether they are H&A or whatever as "cookie cutter" diamonds. How many in the population own an AVR or an AVC????? They are extremely rare and they are anything but "cookie cutter". I don't understand why many of you keep bashing them and making snide digs here and there of these well cut stones because they are precision cut when you steer people in here to the more precision cut MRB H&A's time and time again.

And Mara you state AVR's seem rather "cold" to you and yet they are a well faceted, precision cut OECs which is what you are looking for in an antique OEC...a well cut OEC, well faceted OEC which is exactly what an AVR IS. Sorry, I just don't get it. Your comment about an AVR seeming "cold" (whatever that means in a well cut diamond) seems a tad bit hypocritical and made me laugh, since you own a sharp "shardy" cut MRB that must be looking "cold" to you now as well since it is such a precision cut MRB.

They refer to houses as "cookie cutter" because they all look the same...and they sell them by the hundreds/thousands or whatever, so the meaning of cookie cutter definitely would more aptly apply to MRB since the majority of consumers buy those cookie cutter round stones.

Nothing is more boring or "cookie cutter" to me in a diamond than a MRB....but that is what the majority of diamond buyers prefer to their eye, but to own a rare well cut OEC whether modern or antique cut is my preference and will turn heads of those who have never had the privilege to view them before on anyone's hand.

Mara it sounds as if you are really ready to purchase a more rare example of a beautifully cut stone and I wish you the best in your search for your large antique OEC if that is where your heart is telling you to go. Sorry but the negativity in this thread toward the newly cut chunky faceted stones is over the top and seems very hypocritical to me.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

I honestly don't care whether someone likes old cuts more than a new antique style stone (from Mark, Jon, Leon, etc). (...insert Kenny's line here...) I just don't know ANY vendor who carries a greater variety of stones than Good Old Gold, including real antique stones. They try to meet the customer's preferences. I have seen the videos where Jon has sourced old stones for people.

I agree that price is a huge factor in this, because I think the bargain factor has very strong appeal and a lot of people who would only buy excellent cut in a rb will settle for a lesser cut in an antique stone. Mara sees she can get a 3 ct. old stone for the money she could get from her 2 ct. rb. That is a big draw for people who want a larger stone and don't want to pay the current price of an ex cut rb. I don't blame them a bit. It is a great way to get a really large stone!

I would be extremely happy to have an antique stone at a great price. I'd just want it to be of the very highest cut quality and condition. Even 100 years ago, some stones were much better cut than others, obviously. Just like any other shape of diamond, I won't like them all, but I'll like the best of their kind!

And speaking of experience, I think I could choose an OEC as well as any other consumer here. It's just a matter of whether I want to spend the time and money sending for and potentially returning dozens of stones before I find the perfect one. So please be very careful about characterizing people here who choose newly cut antique stones as somehow lacking knowledge or experience, because it may simply be their preferred way to get a beautiful antique style stone with the greatest ease. Some of us have none to look at locally, and shipping can add up, especially with more valuable stones.

DS, it feels like you are reading some of these preference difference as a personal slight to Jon, and I don't really think they are at all. People who don't feel the AVR is the same thing as a true old cut are talking about product preference, not knocking him or what he offers. I'm in complete agreement that he carries a wide array of things and tries to meet customers' preferences, but that doesn't mean people have to prefer a given product.

But it's kind of ironic to me that you're arguing against characterizing motivations when you're kind of doing the same in suggesting the only motivation for people wanting OECs is price. Yes, it's true that Mara can get more stone for the money, but as Mrs. Salvo always says, a deal isn't a deal unless you're getting *exactly* what you want. While Mara's certainly not going to turn down the side benefit of perhaps getting more bang for the money, her primary reason for doing it is that she prefers the look. The precision cut doesn't appeal to her as much as the wonkiness of old stones, plain and simple.

Alj, I still feel like I am being misunderstood. Did you see the gorgeous antique transitional I posted? Because I am saying I also love old cuts when they are well cut! All I was trying to say about Jon is that he does sell old cuts if someone prefers one! I've deiberated about changing stones a LOT over the last 6 years, and he would never steer me toward anything as hard as I tried to get him to do so! I just think he clearly understands and agrees that AVR's aren't for everyone!

In regard to that transitional I posted, I almost bought it when it was first posted, but the seller removed it and tried to sell on consignment locally instead. In retrospect, I am glad, because I think it was just a little too small for what I really wanted. However, yes, it would have cost a little less than a comparable sized ideal cut rb. Would the price have been the motivating factor for my purchase??? NO WAY!!!!! I thought the stone was one of the prettiest I have EVER seen, and the setting, which was a solitaire very much like TGal's and made by 23rd St., was also one of the most beautiful I have ever seen!

So is this a little more clear? I do think for SOME people, the pricing on some ebay OEC's is tempting for them because they can have a larger OEC than a newly excellent cut stone of any type (I just have observed some of this on threads here). But I think some adore gorgeous OEC's enough to pay equal pricing to a modern cut stone. I'd honestly rather pay more and get exactly what I want, whether it is a clone of that ring I posted above but just a little larger or whether I decide on a newly cut AVC. I only like bargains if the item is something I would have loved enough to pay full price for. And I totally agree that Mara is just like me in that regard!

 

[aljdewey]

So then, by DEFINITION, is a AVC an OEC? To me, it does look more like an older cut vs a modern RB.[/quote]

I'd guess it depends on one's definition of OEC, yes? But for me, that's getting more hung up on the label, and that's not what I really care about. For me, focusing on the veracity of the label is missing the whole point.

If making an improvement strips away the very element that personifies the charm of the thing, it just doesn't feel the same to me. Others may feel differently, and that's cool too. But for me, it's more formulaic and less authentic.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Y'all.....an AVC is a cushion and an AVR is round/OEC. So no, an AVC is NOT OEC..it is more OMC.

haha, that is a lot of abbreviations for one sentence!

 

[TravelingGal]

Y'all.....an AVC is a cushion and an AVR is round/OEC. So no, an AVC is NOT OEC..it is more OMC.

haha, that is a lot of abbreviations for one sentence!

OMG, so AVC is not OEC but AVR is OEC. OIC.

 

[Gypsy]

It is very interesting to me that none of you long time members in PS seem to ever refer to MRB whether they are H&A or whatever as "cookie cutter" diamonds. How many in the population own an AVR or an AVC????? They are extremely rare and they are anything but "cookie cutter". I don't understand why many of you keep bashing them and making snide digs here and there of these well cut stones because they are precision cut when you steer people in here to the more precision cut MRB H&A's time and time again.

And Mara you state AVR's seem rather "cold" to you and yet they are a well faceted, precision cut OECs which is what you are looking for in an antique OEC...a well cut OEC, well faceted OEC which is exactly what an AVR IS. Sorry, I just don't get it. Your comment about an AVR seeming "cold" (whatever that means in a well cut diamond) seems a tad bit hypocritical and made me laugh, since you own a sharp "shardy" cut MRB that must be looking "cold" to you now as well since it is such a precision cut MRB.

They refer to houses as "cookie cutter" because they all look the same...and they sell them by the hundreds/thousands or whatever, so the meaning of cookie cutter definitely would more aptly apply to MRB since the majority of consumers buy those cookie cutter round stones.

Nothing is more boring or "cookie cutter" to me in a diamond than a MRB....but that is what the majority of diamond buyers prefer to their eye, but to own a rare well cut OEC whether modern or antique cut is my preference and will turn heads of those who have never had the privilege to view them before on anyone's hand.

Mara it sounds as if you are really ready to purchase a more rare example of a beautifully cut stone and I wish you the best in your search for your large antique OEC if that is where your heart is telling you to go. Sorry but the negativity in this thread toward the newly cut chunky faceted stones is over the top and seems very hypocritical to me.

Ariel, you are wrong honey. both aljdewey and I refer to MB as the ultimate cookie cutter stone throughout this thread. THat's actually what started this whole line of posting. Here was my original comment, since you may have missed it.

I agree with with Ericad. I personally love the quirks of fancies and consider true antique/vintage stones fancy cuts. Whereas I consider the AVR's much closer to RB with the same 'cookie cutter' issue Aljdewey pointed out.

The cookie cutter thing was FIRST used to describe MRB, THEN it was said, by me, that if I had to say whether an AVR is closer to a MRB or an true old cut, FOR ME, I would pick MRB and the reason was the cookie cutter thing.

If you read the whole thread you'll see aljdewey called MRB cookie cutter WAY early on in the discussion and if you look at my posting history in general and how I feel about RB's... it's because they are cookie cutter.

Here: [URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/general-diamond-performance-vendors-please.175507/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/general-diamond-performance-vendors-please.175507/[/URL] I refer to them as boring, and as 'chicken' in a food analogy. And there are other posts where other members have said the same thing.

I have never steered a poster to a MRB unless it was what they wanted, what their lady wanted, or they were needing something safe because it was one of those Mission Impossible can't possibly ask the woman and give her a clue proposals. The fact is most people on here WANT a round brilliant. And I do not impose my own feeling about MRB on people who love them. Because that would be obnoxious of me.


(AND YES DS I MEANT AVR, I AVC was a typo).

 

[aljdewey]

It is very interesting to me that none of you long time members in PS seem to ever refer to MRB whether they are H&A or whatever as "cookie cutter" diamonds. How many in the population own an AVR or an AVC????? They are extremely rare and they are anything but "cookie cutter". I don't understand why many of you keep bashing them and making snide digs here and there of these well cut stones because they are precision cut when you steer people in here to the more precision cut MRB H&A's time and time again.[/quote]


HAHAHA - Ariel, perhaps you should go back and read this thread from the beginning, becuase I think you've totally missed the point.

Mara is absolutely calling her MRB a 'cookie cutter' stone, and several others have chimed in similarly. I think you missed the entire essence of this......you seem to think this is only about an AVR or AVC, and that's just not so.

Mara is looking to sell her ideally-cut modern round brilliant because she doesn't appreciate the 'cookie cutter' uniformity of it anymore. She's fallen in love with the wonkiness of period-made Old Euro stones, and that's what speaks to her more now. That's the whole reason for this thread to begin with!

The offshoot of the AVC/AVR discussion happened when someone suggested one could just get an AVR/AVC instead of a period-made antique stone and inferred that it would be essentially the same thing. Some of us have said that it's not the same thing, because while BEAUTIFUL, AVC/AVRs are made with an eye toward 'correcting' perceived optics faults in period-original stones, and some of us feel those very variances are the essence of what makes period-original stones charming.

As much as you seem to want to make this about AVC/AVR, that's not what the original impetus of the thread was at all. It was Mara saying "I've fallen out of love with my clinical-looking ideally cut modern round brilliant and fallen into love with wonky, period-original OECs."

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Y'all.....an AVC is a cushion and an AVR is round/OEC. So no, an AVC is NOT OEC..it is more OMC.

haha, that is a lot of abbreviations for one sentence!

OMG, so AVC is not OEC but AVR is OEC. OIC.

 

[aljdewey]

Alj, I still feel like I am being misunderstood. Did you see the gorgeous antique transitional I posted? Because I am saying I also love old cuts when they are well cut! All I was trying to say about Jon is that he does sell old cuts if someone prefers one! ..........

I"m not misunderstanding, DS.....I got that in your comments and I did see that stone. As a long-time PSers, I'm confident that Mara has an exceptionally clear grasp on what all the various vendors' capabilities are, and where she's no shrinking violet, I'm equally confident she's able to reach out to those vendors she'd feel comfortable working with.

 

[Mara]

To each their own in what they prefer... I honestly don't care what people buy as long as it appeals to *their* eye.

Ariel, a lot of long-time members ARE standing here in this thread saying YES MRB's can be cookie cutter! And they absolutely can. Alj and I talk about this all the time. Once you've got a formula on how to cut the perfect XYZ light-returning stone (whatever you want to 'brand' it)... then it's really hard to say that you're making anything absolutely as unique as something like an OMC that was cut by hand before we had all these modern tools. Modern is more formulaic. Sure each stone might have small nuances that make each stone different, my 2.32 I personally think looks like one of the best MRB's I've ever seen and I've seen a few. Something about THIS stone always spoke to me. But now that I've seen so many OEC's and old stones, they just have so much more PERSONALITY. That's part of what makes me a little hesitant to get rid of it because I always felt so lucky that it found me.

I used to want the most perfect standard formulaic MRB I could find. I loved it for 5 years. Maybe someday I will appreciate that again. Who really knows, tastes change and I think that's ok. I also don't think using terminology like shardy or cold to describe a diamond is offensive, lol! They can be ICY WHITE!!

Jon...no worries..you know better than most that I appreciate a spirited convo!!

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Alj, I still feel like I am being misunderstood. Did you see the gorgeous antique transitional I posted? Because I am saying I also love old cuts when they are well cut! All I was trying to say about Jon is that he does sell old cuts if someone prefers one! ..........

I"m not misunderstanding, DS.....I got that in your comments and I did see that stone. As a long-time PSers, I'm confident that Mara has an exceptionally clear grasp on what all the various vendors' capabilities are, and where she's no shrinking violet, I'm equally confident she's able to reach out to those vendors she'd feel comfortable working with.

Goodness, we need to sit down and have a glass of wine (while I gaze at your jewels ). Because I wasn't suggesting that Mara needed to contact GOG for an old stone. lol! For some reason, words in print just don't work sometime! I was just responding to previous negative posts toward AVR's and suggesting that Jon really doesn't twist people's arms to buy them! I really am over that topic, but I can see I wasn't clear again!!!

 

[fridays_child]

John to me the AVC is just a different facet pattern ideal round. Chunky facet ideal Round. MRB can trace their history back to OECs too. I do think they are much close to a MRB than an OEC, exactly because they are perfected OECs. I won't be buying an Octavia anytime either. It's an idealized square emerald, but it's not for me (although I do prefer it to the AVCs I've seen). Neither are for me and I've seen them in person. I don't like the 'idealized' line of fancies. They lose their charm for me. And the AVC becomes cookie cutter exactly because of the uniformity that is required by a branded line and a set facet pattern demands and precision cutting standards. (I do not think Octavia's are cookie cutter, there is more variation in them).

Huge +1 to this. Exactly.

It is very interesting to me that none of you long time members in PS seem to ever refer to MRB whether they are H&A or whatever as "cookie cutter" diamonds. How many in the population own an AVR or an AVC????? They are extremely rare and they are anything but "cookie cutter". I don't understand why many of you keep bashing them and making snide digs here and there of these well cut stones because they are precision cut when you steer people in here to the more precision cut MRB H&A's time and time again.

And Mara you state AVR's seem rather "cold" to you and yet they are a well faceted, precision cut OECs which is what you are looking for in an antique OEC...a well cut OEC, well faceted OEC which is exactly what an AVR IS. Sorry, I just don't get it. Your comment about an AVR seeming "cold" (whatever that means in a well cut diamond) seems a tad bit hypocritical and made me laugh, since you own a sharp "shardy" cut MRB that must be looking "cold" to you now as well since it is such a precision cut MRB.

They refer to houses as "cookie cutter" because they all look the same...and they sell them by the hundreds/thousands or whatever, so the meaning of cookie cutter definitely would more aptly apply to MRB since the majority of consumers buy those cookie cutter round stones.

Nothing is more boring or "cookie cutter" to me in a diamond than a MRB....but that is what the majority of diamond buyers prefer to their eye, but to own a rare well cut OEC whether modern or antique cut is my preference and will turn heads of those who have never had the privilege to view them before on anyone's hand.

Mara it sounds as if you are really ready to purchase a more rare example of a beautifully cut stone and I wish you the best in your search for your large antique OEC if that is where your heart is telling you to go. Sorry but the negativity in this thread toward the newly cut chunky faceted stones is over the top and seems very hypocritical to me.

I don't see anything wrong with someone stating their subjective opinion on the AV stones, good or bad. You see it as "bashing" and "negativity", I see it as stating a personal preference. Since the whole tangent started from someone inferring, whether intentionally or not, that AVRs are superior versions of the OEC, I see it as natural to argue against that point if you don't agree with it.

If there's one thing I've learned from reading PS threads, it's that you have to filter out all the lovers/haters of stones/vendors/etc and get to the heart of what YOU love. Whether or not the PS crowd (or any other crowd) agrees with your taste is largely irrelevant, and everyone, veteran and newbie alike, is entitled to their own personal choice.

I guess for some, the question is how to use this forum - as a means of primarily validation or primarily education. I think you can guess which I prefer

Just my humble opinion

 

[ericad]

One may not care for the look of them, but I don't think it's accurate to say that AVRs are not OECs. According to the grading lab, the certificate, and the cut criteria, they are OECs.

Well, so by that logic, you must also believe that many 100+-year stones are round brilliants, because the GIA reports say so. (Incidently, that's a huge reason why EGL is the preferred lab for many older cuts. They at least more consistently recognize the difference between an old euro and a rb.)

The fact that a grading lab doesn't have a label to mark something as a reproduction doesn't make it less of one. If the only two labels available are round brilliant and old euro, it makes sense to choose the old euro label since that's what they most closely resemble. Since they don't have a label for "old euro *style*", it makes sense.

I was just thinking the same thing! Certs are wrong about OEC's all the time. Or calling them OMC's or OEC's when they are of the opposite designation.

Though if they are calling AVR's OEC's they should call them something like EC and drop the O! False advertising.

Exactly! Old European Cut and Old Mine Cut have "Old" in the name! How can it be an "old" anything if it's new, lol? By definition, doesn't an OEC or OMC have to be...ummmm...old?



They need to call them OES and OMS (Old European Style and Old Mine Style)

Truth be told, I don't ever pay attention to the cut name on the cert. The labs call antique stones all kinds of nutty things on the certs, so we've just decided to tune that part out.

 

[aljdewey]

Goodness, we need to sit down and have a glass of wine (while I gaze at your jewels ). Because I wasn't suggesting that Mara needed to contact GOG for an old stone. lol! For some reason, words in print just don't work sometime! I was just responding to previous negative posts toward AVR's and suggesting that Jon really doesn't twist people's arms to buy them! I really am over that topic, but I can see I wasn't clear again!!![/quote]

HAHAH - NOW you're talking my language! WINE! MMMMMMMMMMMMMM

And no, DS, I know you weren't suggesting that at all. But I'd agree with you - it's pretty clear that intent losing something in the translation to print.

I don't think that anyone said anything negative about AVRs OR AVCs. This isn't about better/worse, and I don't think anyone's suggested that. It's about preference, which shouldn't be a right/wrong issue. They are cut with a precision and repeatability, and that's something that makes them *less* desirable to some of us who prefer the wonky, but it's also the very thing that may make them *more* desirable to those who appreciate and totally want more precision.

I think that while they aren't my cup of tea, they totally have a place in the market. There are many people who just can't enjoy warmer stones, and it's super-tough to find period-authentic OECs in the more colorless ranges, particularly in larger sizes since so many of them were recut to 'improve' their optics. Antique repro cuts provide that opportunity to enjoy the older style of faceting without sacrificing color, and that means more choice. (Yes, I know the repros are available in warmer colors too, and that's also fine).

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Okay, good...just didn't want to end up with some kind of misunderstanding! I totally and completely agree that there are plenty of cuts to go around, and we all need at least a few! (and some wine to go with them!)

 

[aljdewey]

Okay, good...just didn't want to end up with some kind of misunderstanding! I totally and completely agree that there are plenty of cuts to go around, and we all need at least a few! (and some wine to go with them!)

DS, my good good friend......no worries! I never think you mean badly, and I loves ya even when we see things differently (like your SI2 HATING! LOLOL)

*mwah* - I wonder how pie goes with wine. Has to be real lemon, though - no imitation lemon extract, ok?

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Okay, good...just didn't want to end up with some kind of misunderstanding! I totally and completely agree that there are plenty of cuts to go around, and we all need at least a few! (and some wine to go with them!)

DS, my good good friend......no worries! I never think you mean badly, and I loves ya even when we see things differently (like your SI2 HATING! LOLOL)

*mwah* - I wonder how pie goes with wine. Has to be real lemon, though - no imitation lemon extract, ok?

*mwah* back at ya! I think we should stick with the wine. I was actually just thinking that wine would have always been better than pie. But I respect everyone's preferences for pie just the same!

"no imitation lemon extract"

 

[ariel144]

It is very interesting to me that none of you long time members in PS seem to ever refer to MRB whether they are H&A or whatever as "cookie cutter" diamonds. How many in the population own an AVR or an AVC????? They are extremely rare and they are anything but "cookie cutter". I don't understand why many of you keep bashing them and making snide digs here and there of these well cut stones because they are precision cut when you steer people in here to the more precision cut MRB H&A's time and time again.[/quote]


HAHAHA - Ariel, perhaps you should go back and read this thread from the beginning, becuase I think you've totally missed the point.

Mara is absolutely calling her MRB a 'cookie cutter' stone, and several others have chimed in similarly. I think you missed the entire essence of this......you seem to think this is only about an AVR or AVC, and that's just not so.

Mara is looking to sell her ideally-cut modern round brilliant because she doesn't appreciate the 'cookie cutter' uniformity of it anymore. She's fallen in love with the wonkiness of period-made Old Euro stones, and that's what speaks to her more now. That's the whole reason for this thread to begin with!

The offshoot of the AVC/AVR discussion happened when someone suggested one could just get an AVR/AVC instead of a period-made antique stone and inferred that it would be essentially the same thing. Some of us have said that it's not the same thing, because while BEAUTIFUL, AVC/AVRs are made with an eye toward 'correcting' perceived optics faults in period-original stones, and some of us feel those very variances are the essence of what makes period-original stones charming.

As much as you seem to want to make this about AVC/AVR, that's not what the original impetus of the thread was at all. It was Mara saying "I've fallen out of love with my clinical-looking ideally cut modern round brilliant and fallen into love with wonky, period-original OECs."

Thanks for clarifying Gypsy. I wasn't implying that you or anyone else steered people to MRB if they were looking for another cut but that IF they were looking for MRB you would steer them to the better cut and performing MRB...so if someone is looking at an EGL graded OMB, or OEC it seems that one might steer them to a precision cut AGS/GIA graded OEC/OMB which also has been further tested for light performance and is a proven performer...instead of the hit and miss method of trying to find a well cut OEC or OMB.

And I wasn't trying to make this about AVR's but commenting on how critical and negative some of the comments have been, which seemed unwarranted to me.

But looking for antique old cuts is an apples to oranges analogy here and I understand that fact and also the many reasons why the antique stones are cherished and preferred by many, and I plan to start collecting them as well.

Some of these chunky cut OEC's and OMB's are newly cut stones and not true antiques. So if one buys a loose stone then how do you prove it is an antique stone? Just wondering. Like some of the stones on OWD. I've seen the same stones they have listed on their site on other site searches as well. And there are a lot of OMB's and OEC's on Polygon. But I rather doubt that they are all antique stones. Some of their OEC''s are wonky and some are precisely round.

So the one who posted that she had her antique OEC recut...does that make it a modern cut OEC now? Personally if I found a good price on an old large cut OEC that did not perform well I would also have it recut for performance. As we all know that All diamonds are "old" and took years to form...some were just found and cut long ago and some found more recently and cut recently....LOL! So in my mind if one recuts an antique OEC to make it a better performing OEC it would no longer be an "antique" cut stone. Just food for thought, when looking for an old cut stone. To each his own and I'm right there with Mara.... lusting after an antique OEC, but if I tried several times and couldn't find a well performing large antique OEC I certainly would buy a large AVR or AVC from GOG.

 

[ariel144]

Here is another question for "Old Cut Nuts" since there are so many on this thread:....do you think that the larger the antique stone the more likely you will find a better cut OEC? I'm reasoning from the the fact that maybe the best and most experienced cutters would get the larger rough to cut. Just wondering.

 

[ariel144]

To each their own in what they prefer... I honestly don't care what people buy as long as it appeals to *their* eye.

Ariel, a lot of long-time members ARE standing here in this thread saying YES MRB's can be cookie cutter! And they absolutely can. Alj and I talk about this all the time. Once you've got a formula on how to cut the perfect XYZ light-returning stone (whatever you want to 'brand' it)... then it's really hard to say that you're making anything absolutely as unique as something like an OMC that was cut by hand before we had all these modern tools. Modern is more formulaic. Sure each stone might have small nuances that make each stone different, my 2.32 I personally think looks like one of the best MRB's I've ever seen and I've seen a few. Something about THIS stone always spoke to me. But now that I've seen so many OEC's and old stones, they just have so much more PERSONALITY. That's part of what makes me a little hesitant to get rid of it because I always felt so lucky that it found me.

I used to want the most perfect standard formulaic MRB I could find. I loved it for 5 years. Maybe someday I will appreciate that again. Who really knows, tastes change and I think that's ok. I also don't think using terminology like shardy or cold to describe a diamond is offensive, lol! They can be ICY WHITE!!

Jon...no worries..you know better than most that I appreciate a spirited convo!!

Thanks Mara, I just didn't get how the AVR's might seem "cold" since so many are the warmer colors...LOL, but they are definitely "calculating"/ precise.

"then it's really hard to say that you're making anything absolutely as unique as something like an OMC that was cut by hand before we had all these modern tools. Modern is more formulaic."

And I agree...very well stated.

 

[Gypsy]

but that IF they were looking for MRB you would steer them to the better cut and performing MRB...so if someone is looking at an EGL graded OMB, or OEC it seems that one might steer them to a precision cut AGS/GIA graded OEC/OMB which also has been further tested for light performance and is a proven performer...instead of the hit and miss method of trying to find a well cut OEC or OMB.


So the one who posted that she had her antique OEC recut...does that make it a modern cut OEC now? Personally if I found a good price on an old large cut OEC that did not perform well I would also have it recut for performance. As we all know that All diamonds are "old" and took years to form...some were just found and cut long ago and some found more recently and cut recently....LOL! So in my mind if one recuts an antique OEC to make it a better performing OEC it would no longer be an "antique" cut stone. Just food for thought, when looking for an old cut stone. To each his own and I'm right there with Mara.... lusting after an antique OEC, but if I tried several times and couldn't find a well performing large antique OEC I certainly would buy a large AVR or AVC from GOG.

These two points:

First, point. **If** I considered ACR's to be simply 'better' OECs, Then yes, I suppose I would steer people looking for OECs toward them toward an AVR. But I don't really consider them to be better OEC's. It's not the same for me, as someone looking at a poorly cut RB and me steering them toward an AGS0. It's much more similar to someone looking for an asscher and steering them toward an Octavia. And Octavia is a branded precision square emerald cut, but it's not a generic asscher. Same family different cuts completely. That's why I don't suggest Octavia's as the 'best' asschers. They perform differently, act differently and look differently than regular asschers. I think of them as a type of asscher, but not the 'best' asscher. And that's even with me having seen Kenny's Octavia side by side to my own and to his 2 carat generic asscher.

So for me when someone is looking for the best OEC I don't think-- the solution is an AVR. I've seen the AVR in person too, and again it's in the same family because it has faceting based on an old cut, but it's not the 'best' old cut for me. Why? The personality has been perfected right out of them. And when someone asks for an OEC I assume they WANT that personality. I consider true old cuts like fancy's. I could, and HAVE, mentioned that cuts like the AVR exist to some people who are looking-- but most of those people looking for OEC on this board are existing members who know all about AVR's and aren't interested in buying one, for whatever reason. If someone is looking for a great OEC, I just find them that. A great OEC.

Second point. Recuts. *I* had one of my old cuts (that I later sold) recut. I still considered it an old cut. The facets were completely abraided and it had a good sized chip and a fragile girdle. I had it completely repolished (which did change the facets slightly and ended up improving performance, but that was incidental not the purpose), had them put a girdle on it and take the chip out. BUT I emphasized that I wanted the original faceting as intact as possible.

To use the car analogy. One is a kit car (the AVR) that has all the same body as an old car, but is a new car, with new car performance. It is a new car. It just looks like an old car mostly, until you look for the age, and quirks of the original and the wear and tear of time.

The other is a truly old car, that's been restored to look it's best. And yes, sometimes people who restore do go 'better than new' a bit (like with a new exhaust system or whatever to meet modern emissions so they can drive it around more). But the car is still an OLD car. It's not a new car.

That's how I see it.

 

[aljdewey]

It is very interesting to me that none of you long time members in PS seem to ever refer to MRB whether they are H&A or whatever as "cookie cutter" diamonds. How many in the population own an AVR or an AVC????? They are extremely rare and they are anything but "cookie cutter". I don't understand why many of you keep bashing them and making snide digs here and there of these well cut stones because they are precision cut when you steer people in here to the more precision cut MRB H&A's time and time again.[/quote]


HAHAHA - Ariel, perhaps you should go back and read this thread from the beginning, becuase I think you've totally missed the point.

Mara is absolutely calling her MRB a 'cookie cutter' stone, and several others have chimed in similarly. I think you missed the entire essence of this......you seem to think this is only about an AVR or AVC, and that's just not so.

Mara is looking to sell her ideally-cut modern round brilliant because she doesn't appreciate the 'cookie cutter' uniformity of it anymore. She's fallen in love with the wonkiness of period-made Old Euro stones, and that's what speaks to her more now. That's the whole reason for this thread to begin with!

The offshoot of the AVC/AVR discussion happened when someone suggested one could just get an AVR/AVC instead of a period-made antique stone and inferred that it would be essentially the same thing. Some of us have said that it's not the same thing, because while BEAUTIFUL, AVC/AVRs are made with an eye toward 'correcting' perceived optics faults in period-original stones, and some of us feel those very variances are the essence of what makes period-original stones charming.

As much as you seem to want to make this about AVC/AVR, that's not what the original impetus of the thread was at all. It was Mara saying "I've fallen out of love with my clinical-looking ideally cut modern round brilliant and fallen into love with wonky, period-original OECs."

Thanks for clarifying Gypsy. I wasn't implying that you or anyone else steered people to MRB if they were looking for another cut but that IF they were looking for MRB you would steer them to the better cut and performing MRB...so if someone is looking at an EGL graded OMB, or OEC it seems that one might steer them to a precision cut AGS/GIA graded OEC/OMB which also has been further tested for light performance and is a proven performer...instead of the hit and miss method of trying to find a well cut OEC or OMB.

And I wasn't trying to make this about AVR's but commenting on how critical and negative some of the comments have been, which seemed unwarranted to me.

But looking for antique old cuts is an apples to oranges analogy here and I understand that fact and also the many reasons why the antique stones are cherished and preferred by many, and I plan to start collecting them as well.

Some of these chunky cut OEC's and OMB's are newly cut stones and not true antiques. So if one buys a loose stone then how do you prove it is an antique stone? Just wondering. Like some of the stones on OWD. I've seen the same stones they have listed on their site on other site searches as well. And there are a lot of OMB's and OEC's on Polygon. But I rather doubt that they are all antique stones. Some of their OEC''s are wonky and some are precisely round.

So the one who posted that she had her antique OEC recut...does that make it a modern cut OEC now? Personally if I found a good price on an old large cut OEC that did not perform well I would also have it recut for performance. As we all know that All diamonds are "old" and took years to form...some were just found and cut long ago and some found more recently and cut recently....LOL! So in my mind if one recuts an antique OEC to make it a better performing OEC it would no longer be an "antique" cut stone. Just food for thought, when looking for an old cut stone. To each his own and I'm right there with Mara.... lusting after an antique OEC, but if I tried several times and couldn't find a well performing large antique OEC I certainly would buy a large AVR or AVC from GOG.

Ariel, it seems the message is misfiring on many, many levels because the devil is in the details, but I'm game to try again.

1. First detail - I'm not gypsy, I"m aljdewey....but yes, in this thread, we did both agree that we perceive RBs as cookie cutter like, and we both prefer idiosyncratic beauty we find in period-original older stones to the precision of their reproduction counterparts.

2. Steering a RB shopper to a better performing RB makes sense because RBs are about performance. Most old-cut lovers will tell you that old cuts aren't about precision or performance; their appeal comes from facet arrangement that works in part because it isn't precision or performance focused. That's the charm, so it doesn't make sense to suggest stones that stray even further away from that essence.

3. It shouldn't be construed as negative when someone says "I don't personally prefer that". If I say "I don't really like tea", that doesn't mean tea sucks or that you shouldn't love tea; all it means is "I don't care for it." I really wish that distinction was more readily accepted in these types of conversations. Nothing is bad just because I don't like it or because you don't like it. It's just *not preferred by some*.

4. If you're the type who would love and enjoy an AVR as much as a period-produced stone, then by all means, get one. Nothing at all wrong with that, but for some, it wouldn't scratch their given itches......and there's nothing wrong with that either.

 

[Gypsy]

2. Steering a RB shopper to a better performing RB makes sense because RBs are about performance. Most old-cut lovers will tell you that old cuts aren't about precision or performance; their appeal comes from facet arrangement that works in part because it isn't precision or performance focused. That's the charm, so it doesn't make sense to suggest stones that stray even further away from that essence.

THIS is a great point. Ditto this.

 

[TravelingGal]

I still wanna know what Mara's getting....

 

[InnaR]

Looks like we have two topics that discuss the same topics, I reread it and made an observation.
It's back on the subject of AVRs = OECs.

Here are some quotes from Catia's post on her AVR/AVC journey:

Catia commenting on AVR N:
'Also--some questions about fire--I want to be careful how I word this, because I am out of my element & don't want this post to be misconstrued. I'll do my best to describe what I'm getting at.
I'm not complaining about this diamond.

I'm trying to understand what it is I need to look for in a diamond with either crown height or angles or cut or ASET or whatever--what do I look for to get the effect I want for ***FIRE***.

My previous experience was viewing cushion brilliants, the crowns were a bit higher, but not the 'over 40 degrees' & each one I viewed showed fire/color reflections even when not in spot lighting I got the blues/pink/orange/yellow green & even sometimes an odd red or violet.

In most lighting conditions, with this current stone--I get bright bright white brilliance & tons of white/silver sparkle/scintillation.
There is zero time where this diamond ever goes dead-even partially-which is pretty freakin incredible, & I do love that.
But, I'm only really getting fire & colors reflecting in low low light conditions, or spot lights.'

YayTacori commenting on AVR J:
'I did notice, that more often than not, there is more white light return than fire in most situations. But then I also thought it was because of the lighting situations I was in. I didn't get to go to a lot of places that I was planning to'

Catia on AVR J:
'While the J AVR is a fireball in certain lightings, it does give off mostly white light.'

YayTacori on AVR J:
'So you did notice that it has more white light return than fire huh? I thought it was just me. I mean the AVR itself I think as a diamond is just so so bright. Mate it cancels some fire? I just thought it was te lighting situations I was in. All I know is that I still love it!! '

Two consumers with naked eyes noticed lack of fire in the cut of two AVRs. And as we were told many times AVRs were cut for repetitive performance in all stones of that branded line. So it would be safe to assume that the same lack of fire is exhibited in all AVRs.
I can add that the .8 I SI2 I owned exhibited the same quality.
And what is amazing that both customers go out of their way to find such explanation to the lack of fire, that it will sound that it's the perfection of the cut is what makes the diamond lack of fire, the diamond is so bright that it cancels out the fire. Give me a break.
Why would consumers go out of their way to protect vendor's feelings? Isn't the truth always better?
OECs were cut for fire, so if the AVRs are OEC why they don't exhibit the same quality?