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Old cut / New cut

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Londonchris

Rough_Rock
Joined
Nov 29, 2006
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96
Just a quick history lesson.

An "old cut" on the left,mishapen and with a flat culet.
A normal brilliant cut of today on the right.

oldcut.JPG
 

Cehrabehra

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
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11,071
normally I''d take just about any old cut over a new cut, but that *particular* old cut is... well... horrid!!!!
 

Kaleigh

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Nov 18, 2004
Messages
29,570
Date: 12/10/2006 5:30:57 PM
Author: Cehrabehra
normally I''d take just about any old cut over a new cut, but that *particular* old cut is... well... horrid!!!!
Right there with ya!!! I adore OMC''s and OEC''s but this one, me no likey!!!
 

Scott Terence

Shiny_Rock
Joined
May 27, 2004
Messages
278
Yeah that is an old cut that I would def pass on, however, in my limited experience handling OMCs it is definitely possible to have a well cut OMC that rivals modern cushion brilliants...
 

Cehrabehra

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
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Date: 12/10/2006 7:18:41 PM
Author: Scott 00
Yeah that is an old cut that I would def pass on, however, in my limited experience handling OMCs it is definitely possible to have a well cut OMC that rivals modern cushion brilliants...
oh yeah and there are OECs out there I''d vastly have over a RB - facetfire''s comes to mind...


If I could have found an old 3 carat OMC with at least good sym, I''d prob rather have that LOL I love my stone, but I''m a short LGF sort of gal ;-)
 

mommy

Rough_Rock
Joined
Dec 7, 2006
Messages
7
Wow...have never said this before but that old cut is sure UGLY...I have had 2 extremely beautiful old stones I hope no one mistakes that thing on the left as a representative of how warm and beautiful old ones can be. Caleb Meyer studios in Chestnut Hill PA is an artisan that has been using old stones for his crafted settings...check out his website!
http://www.calebmeyer.com/philadelphia-american-craft.html
 

innerkitten

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Aug 1, 2003
Messages
5,623
I agree, that old cut is looking kinda funky and not in a good way

Mommy, is it the James Meyer link at the bottom ? http://www.jamesmeyerjewelry.com/index.htm

His stuff is SUPER beatiful. Thanks for showing it.

Germantown has changed. My father once owned one of those big old victorians on Tulpahocken street and the neighborhood was terrible back then. I'm glad it's better.
 

widget

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Nov 12, 2004
Messages
4,255
Hey hey! Someone needs to jump in here and defend ugly old cuts!


Here are a pair of stones which are part of a pair of antique earrings. They are quite small (probably 25pts each), and to me add great charm with their antique "ugliness"....


widget

funkdi.jpg
 

mommy

Rough_Rock
Joined
Dec 7, 2006
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Yes...is it James Meyer..I found and old beautiful european stone 2+ carats and had Caleb do a raised bezel set...it has a fabulous old world Eutrascan feel to it but very modern at the same time...He work definitely respects the old. I am not trying to sound like I am selling him...just rather selling the idea that warm diamonds can stand side by side with new icy brilliant cuts and look great too!
 

widget

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Nov 12, 2004
Messages
4,255
Author: mommy
..I found and old beautiful european stone 2+ carats and had Caleb do a raised bezel set...it has a fabulous old world Eutrascan feel to it but very modern at the same time
No fair! You MUST post a picture of this beauty!

widget
 

Cehrabehra

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
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Messages
11,071
Date: 12/11/2006 11:05:36 AM
Author: widget
Hey hey! Someone needs to jump in here and defend ugly old cuts!


Here are a pair of stones which are part of a pair of antique earrings. They are quite small (probably 25pts each), and to me add great charm with their antique ''ugliness''....


widget
at 25 points I think they''re fine, and the one on the left is pretty good anyway - but the one on the right if it were say 3 carats, can you imagine? It might be lovable, but in a only the mother does it sort of way lol
 

oldminer

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Sep 3, 2000
Messages
6,322
The "ugly" old cut you showed is a good example of how an old cut might not be as pretty as some alternate modern cut. However, in the right piece of antique jewelry and in the correct lighting that ugly old cut might just look exactly right for the part it plays in the piece. A better cut might look a like a replacement diamond and not an original. Everyone appreciates matching of stones to the period of the item and also matching of stones to eachother. Any stone that fails to match its nearby neighbors will look out of place or substituted.

Some antique items are beautiful because of rarity or their handmade quality of manufacture. The diamonds in some of these oldies are more decor than the main subject of the piece. In the long gone days of complex workmanship many diamonds were not the main thrust of the jewelry. The look, feel and style of the metal item was the main issue and diamonds were not the major player.

Today, things are quite different. That "ugly" diamond would be very difficult to use in a modern piece and few modern customers would want such a stone. Dealers who are in the process of restoring an antique where such a stone was missing would be thrilled to stumble across it.
 

Londonchris

Rough_Rock
Joined
Nov 29, 2006
Messages
96
I don`t think the picture quite does either stone justice.
Both are good quality,and i would like to add,old cuts are all different and unique which gives them character.
I like them,as a solitary stone,historic and interesting (sometimes comical looking) ...
Interesting to hear all your rejections and only 1 or 2 understanding their importance.
 

innerkitten

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Aug 1, 2003
Messages
5,623
Maybe it''s not a great photo of either one of them. But I wanted to mention that I am actually a fan of the old cuts. In fact my engagement ring has an old European cut as it''s center stone ( which I just had to have). Even though I like old jewelry and new jewelry I most often drawn to old peices or new pieces that look old.
 

oldminer

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Sep 3, 2000
Messages
6,322
From 1983 until 2005 I was a primary market maker of old European cut diamonds providing pricing information to the trade in publiucations and via the Internet. I bought and sold for the prices I published and brought a good deal of transparency to what had earlier been a very secretive valuation process.

Old European cut round diamonds strongly outsell cushion shaped diamonds in the USA. Our jewelry history is comparatively short to Europe or Asia where cushion shaped diamonds are far more appreciated for their unique character and more subtle individuality and softer beauty. The high number of folks who responded that would reject such a stone show the typical American bias for rounder, old Euro cuts. Craftsman from the older parts of the world will value cushion shapes, even oddly shaped ones, as having uniqueness and high merit on an individual basis. Its a cultural and historical thing and not so much to do with the diamond itself, but with differences between countires and cultures.
 

mishelly

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jun 5, 2004
Messages
42
How much do you think was 'lost' (carat-wise) due to the recut?
Do you think the recut enhanced the colour of the diamond, or better hid any colour it may have?
I have an OMC and it has a rather large culet. I know you're all going to groan...but is there a way to give it a 'slightly' better cut so it shines more and is not as dull in the centre? This is just a thought...like is there a way to keep the overall OMC appearance (not totally change it to an RB)but recut it so it has more sparkle and less dullness b/c of the wide culet?
Any opinions???
Here's a link to an old discussion, with pics of my OMC (the centre is a .75)
https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/pics-of-my-omc-oec-ering.51054/=

Mishelly
 

oldminer

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Sep 3, 2000
Messages
6,322
There are many ways to improve or modernize a diamond without reshaping it totally to a specific modern cut. An experienced cutter has many options to offer if someone has a high degree of flexibility in the end result.
 

Cehrabehra

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Jun 29, 2006
Messages
11,071
Date: 12/11/2006 1:58:18 PM
Author: Londonchris
I don`t think the picture quite does either stone justice.
Both are good quality,and i would like to add,old cuts are all different and unique which gives them character.
I like them,as a solitary stone,historic and interesting (sometimes comical looking) ...
Interesting to hear all your rejections and only 1 or 2 understanding their importance.
I think you misunderstand.... at least where I am concerned. I''d take a culet over a non culet any day... but it also depends on what the stone is for, how large it is etc. I know nothing about the two stones other than "old cut / new cut" and in my head I''m picturing two carat stones set as a solitaire - not sure the one on the left would hold its own well in THAT situation. Not all old cuts are that *off* and I kinda hate to see old cuts represented at such an extreme skew. I know they have value to antique jewelry repair and others who love them for their ultimate in quirkiness, shall we say.... but that one there is particularly off on its sym. Almost looks like it was an OMC that is half way to being recut to the stone on the right and someone said stop let''s catch a pic before its lost forever and it was already partly changed.... I was looking at a stone in my aunt''s ring which was a gift to my great grandmother for her 16th birthday - the diamond is a *chip* really, maybe it weighs 20 points but from the side it is almost half crown - almost a full natural shape with just a tiny tip off one end and a larger tip (table) off the other.... looking straight down the culet isn''t super large but it is way off to one side (think cornucopia lol) and yet it is just the most charming thing, in its original setting from a hundred years ago. It''s not that these stones don''t have value, even beauty, and there are antique stones I''d wear without hesitation certainly, but for it to be a large stone centerpiece I''d prefer it have a bit more symmetry than the one you posted above lol
 

Cehrabehra

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Jun 29, 2006
Messages
11,071
Date: 12/11/2006 3:20:11 PM
Author: oldminer
From 1983 until 2005 I was a primary market maker of old European cut diamonds providing pricing information to the trade in publiucations and via the Internet. I bought and sold for the prices I published and brought a good deal of transparency to what had earlier been a very secretive valuation process.

Old European cut round diamonds strongly outsell cushion shaped diamonds in the USA. Our jewelry history is comparatively short to Europe or Asia where cushion shaped diamonds are far more appreciated for their unique character and more subtle individuality and softer beauty. The high number of folks who responded that would reject such a stone show the typical American bias for rounder, old Euro cuts. Craftsman from the older parts of the world will value cushion shapes, even oddly shaped ones, as having uniqueness and high merit on an individual basis. Its a cultural and historical thing and not so much to do with the diamond itself, but with differences between countires and cultures.
that''s not true - my stone could *hardly* be called a round LOL I sought out a modern cut OMC (GIA cert says Old Mine Brilliant) and that''s what I got, high crown, culet and everything, but the symmetry is fine. It is most definitely a cushion and the only thing I can really complain about is that the lgf are too long.

I prefer OMC to OEC, but I see the beauty and attraction to them as well.
 

Cehrabehra

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Jun 29, 2006
Messages
11,071
Date: 12/11/2006 3:23:32 PM
Author: mishelly
How much do you think was ''lost'' (carat-wise) due to the recut?
Do you think the recut enhanced the colour of the diamond, or better hid any colour it may have?
I have an OMC and it has a rather large culet. I know you''re all going to groan...but is there a way to give it a ''slightly'' better cut so it shines more and is not as dull in the centre? This is just a thought...like is there a way to keep the overall OMC appearance (not totally change it to an RB)but recut it so it has more sparkle and less dullness b/c of the wide culet?
Any opinions???
Here''s a link to an old discussion, with pics of my OMC (the centre is a .75)
https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/pics-of-my-omc-oec-ering.51054/=

Mishelly
::groan:: lol ;-) Seriously - your stone is perfect and the culet size is perfect - it''s absolutely gorgeous, one of the most beautiful OMCs I''ve seen!! You cannot compare your beautiful old OMC to the one at the top. I can agree with the argument not to recut any old stones, but I''d bless the recut of the one at the top a thousand times before I''d suggest you touch yours. In fact, it''d be a shame to. ::more groans:: ;D
 

Cehrabehra

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Jun 29, 2006
Messages
11,071
Date: 12/11/2006 3:40:44 PM
Author: DiamondExpert
Here''s another ''beauty'' - quite like them personally..each stone has real individual ''character''!
yeah LOL this one reminds me of my family ring - with the culet way off to the side lol
 

mishelly

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jun 5, 2004
Messages
42
Cehra--okay, you''re probably right, my stone is just fine the way it is :) I''d just prefer to not see a dark spot in the centre, when all my GF''s with their RB''s don''t have this.
My family heirloom jewelry, some diamond pieces, could sure use some recutting though, I am positive! There''s a few old rose cut (I believe--nothing is appraised) diamond rings, one OEC with a cluster of side stones, a diamond and pearl broach (I think that''s what it is!) and a stunning diamond circle broach along with some other non-diamond pieces from Persia and Africa. Next time I''m back home I''ll have to snap some digital pics so you can all tell me what they are! The jewelry came from my (deceased) very well off granny from England, who as a young girl/woman, was involved in the aristocratic/socialite life style. Oh to have been her!!!

So, since I''m in Canada, if I wanted to get something recut, some of the rose cuts or less symmetrical OEC diamonds from this collection, who could I send them to through mail? I really don''t trust any local jewelers THAT much, nor do I trust their expertise or cutting skills...is there someone here (Dave Atlas, or others??) who take mailed diamonds and recut them?
Can''t wait for the feedback :) This is all very exciting to me.
 

Cehrabehra

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Jun 29, 2006
Messages
11,071
Date: 12/11/2006 9:14:35 PM
Author: mishelly
Cehra--okay, you''re probably right, my stone is just fine the way it is :) I''d just prefer to not see a dark spot in the centre, when all my GF''s with their RB''s don''t have this.
My family heirloom jewelry, some diamond pieces, could sure use some recutting though, I am positive! There''s a few old rose cut (I believe--nothing is appraised) diamond rings, one OEC with a cluster of side stones, a diamond and pearl broach (I think that''s what it is!) and a stunning diamond circle broach along with some other non-diamond pieces from Persia and Africa. Next time I''m back home I''ll have to snap some digital pics so you can all tell me what they are! The jewelry came from my (deceased) very well off granny from England, who as a young girl/woman, was involved in the aristocratic/socialite life style. Oh to have been her!!!

So, since I''m in Canada, if I wanted to get something recut, some of the rose cuts or less symmetrical OEC diamonds from this collection, who could I send them to through mail? I really don''t trust any local jewelers THAT much, nor do I trust their expertise or cutting skills...is there someone here (Dave Atlas, or others??) who take mailed diamonds and recut them?
Can''t wait for the feedback :) This is all very exciting to me.
so you really really really want an ideal round? If there''s any way to just *add* to the collection, that''s what I''d do. I wouldn''t recut the rose cut diamonds either. If the OEC is well cut you might be able to get good value out of it as is and allow someone else the charm of the oec and spend the money you make for a new rb :)
 

Cehrabehra

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Jun 29, 2006
Messages
11,071
Date: 12/11/2006 9:53:48 PM
Author: innerkitten
mishelly, Please post pics soon!
I second this - a big giant second!!!
 

mishelly

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jun 5, 2004
Messages
42
No, no, I don''t want an ideal round (at least not in my e-ring, maybe for a RHR or a diamond necklace). I LOVE LOVE LOVE my e-ring unique squarish,cushion look. All I''d want from any sort of cutting would be to get more sparkle (and if possible, be able to reduce the amount of colour it currently shows--not sure if this is possible).

I had it appraised for insurance purposes but there''s no info on table, crown, etc, symmetry, etc like I see on all the appraisals that get posted here. Crappy appraisal I suppose! All I''d want from a recut is to simply make it sparkle more. I think that some of the angles are not that well/crisply cut, def not ''excellent''. I''d just want to ''sharpen'' up the edges a bit. I''m sorry if I''m not explaining myself very well, I don''t know the terminology as well as I should!

I hope I can take pics of the heirloom stuff around xmas time. My wedding band has some old single cut diamonds from the collection too, taken from another piece of jewelry from ''granny''s ol'' stuff'' that was otherwise not being used.

Mishelly
 

widget

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Nov 12, 2004
Messages
4,255
Oh, my! Count me among those EAGER to see pictures of your Granny''s treasures!!


widget
 
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