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OK to copy design?

Rockdiamond

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Interesting discussion!
Bryan- IMO the income tax analogy is off base.
Income tax is an obligation we all share- and it benefits all of us.
Tiffany protecting their name is a commercial venture- there's no motivation to benefit society as a whole in such actions IMO
Of course good faith is essential in any business, and society.
BTW- aside from Tiffany's vigorously protecting their name- can anyone give us other examples of manufacturers protecting designs in the jewelry biz?
I haven't noticed a lot of protecting going on in the industry, but I could have easily missed it.

Here's what I consider a more appropriate comparison- music.
There's artists that invite other artists to sample and use their ideas- and other cases where large settlements/ judgments have been issued in response to lawsuits claiming ideas were stolen.

So how can a musician "un-hear" a song so that it does not influence their work?
How can a jewelry artisan - someone who's dedicated their life to the work- how can they "un-see" elements of a design when they are crafting pieces?
Maybe this is more "inspiration" as opposed to copying?
 

Texas Leaguer

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Rockdiamond|1479924311|4101939 said:
Interesting discussion!
Bryan- IMO the income tax analogy is off base.
Income tax is an obligation we all share- and it benefits all of us.
Tiffany protecting their name is a commercial venture- there's no motivation to benefit society as a whole in such actions IMO
Of course good faith is essential in any business, and society.
BTW- aside from Tiffany's vigorously protecting their name- can anyone give us other examples of manufacturers protecting designs in the jewelry biz?
I haven't noticed a lot of protecting going on in the industry, but I could have easily missed it.

Here's what I consider a more appropriate comparison- music.
There's artists that invite other artists to sample and use their ideas- and other cases where large settlements/ judgments have been issued in response to lawsuits claiming ideas were stolen.

So how can a musician "un-hear" a song so that it does not influence their work?
How can a jewelry artisan - someone who's dedicated their life to the work- how can they "un-see" elements of a design when they are crafting pieces?
Maybe this is more "inspiration" as opposed to copying?
There are very specific criteria for determining if a design infringes on a copyright. As I said, I am not an attorney so I cannot speak with any authority on those specifics. Suffice it to say that "influences" do not constitute infringement.

The analogy to income tax was meant to suggest that the system doesn't work if people generally don't respect the intent of the law. IRS could never raise the revenue needed to run the country if they had to go chase down every tax payer and force them to give their fair share. In the case of jewelry copyrights, for the system to work people must generally respect that the law is meant to protect everyone who has invested or may some day want to invest in developing intellectual property, and that it is fair.

From my experience, I suspect many designers probably feel that a largely voluntary system does not work all that well for them.
 

Rockdiamond

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Actually Bryan, I believe that in a recent case in the music industry, influences accounted for a multi million dollar judgement.
The song claimed to infringe was by no means identical. I think it was the Marvin Gaye estate that sued- I'll look it up...or maybe someone else knows

Since we design and produce our own jewelry, I don't speak to a lot of designers- but it's possible you're correct and many of them are unhappy with the current reality.
As I said, from my perspective, the reality is that it's impossible to prevent one off thefts of ideas. So I've stopped letting it get to me.
If it was done en masse, I'm sure I'd be forced to re-evaluate. And I agree that a larger effort to copy a brand can be a big problem.

Thanks for the thought provoking discussion!
 

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Rockdiamond|1479931193|4101987 said:
Actually Bryan, I believe that in a recent case in the music industry, influences accounted for a multi million dollar judgement.
The song claimed to infringe was by no means identical. I think it was the Marvin Gaye estate that sued- I'll look it up...or maybe someone else knows

Since we design and produce our own jewelry, I don't speak to a lot of designers- but it's possible you're correct and many of them are unhappy with the current reality.
As I said, from my perspective, the reality is that it's impossible to prevent one off thefts of ideas. So I've stopped letting it get to me.
If it was done en masse, I'm sure I'd be forced to re-evaluate. And I agree that a larger effort to copy a brand can be a big problem.

Thanks for the thought provoking discussion!
I don't know about the music, but I would expect that it also has very specific criteria as to what constitutes infringement.

But imagine if you developed a jewelry design and took out expensive adds in the top fashion magazines to market it. And imagine that you entered it into all the biggest jewelry design competitions and it took top honors. Imagine it became THE design of the year that everyone wanted. And then... you looked around and saw custom jewelers all over the country making copies of it.

You would probably not feel like 'imitation is the highest form of flattery' !
 

Rockdiamond

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George Harrison wrote a song called "My Sweet Lord" which was found by a judge to infringe on "He's so fine"
http://ultimateclassicrock.com/george-harrison-my-sweet-lord-plagiarism/

Then he wrote a song about the lawsuit
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=me8h6qET19s

It was not a direct copy, rather it was influenced.

I would imagine that any jewelry/ring designer with the resources to launch a "major" promotion like magazines and such, has already incorporated the current reality- IOW_ they know they're going to get knocked off if it's a successful design.
I'd agree part of that probably involves a team of lawyers in case the knock offs are done on a large scale.

Did you know that, as a seller, you're not allowed to call a brown diamond "chocolate"?
 

Texas Leaguer

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Rockdiamond|1479935263|4102004 said:
George Harrison wrote a song called "My Sweet Lord" which was found by a judge to infringe on "He's so fine"
http://ultimateclassicrock.com/george-harrison-my-sweet-lord-plagiarism/

Then he wrote a song about the lawsuit
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=me8h6qET19s

It was not a direct copy, rather it was influenced.

I would imagine that any jewelry/ring designer with the resources to launch a "major" promotion like magazines and such, has already incorporated the current reality- IOW_ they know they're going to get knocked off if it's a successful design.
I'd agree part of that probably involves a team of lawyers in case the knock offs are done on a large scale.

Did you know that, as a seller, you're not allowed to call a brown diamond "chocolate"?

But it wasn't simply influenced. The judge ruled that “it is perfectly obvious to the listener that in musical terms, the two songs are virtually identical.”

Same music, different words. It's like the same jewelry design with different gemstones - still design infringement.

I love George's philosophical, non-defensive, honest appraisal in the case. Always admired him. He is definitely one of my favorite Beatles.

The problem with brown diamonds, even if you call them chocolate they just don't taste all that good. I prefer vanilla diamonds. :twirl:
 

Rockdiamond

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Bryan, the judge was certainly entitled to his opinion and I also love George ( not my favorite Beatle, for me it's John)
In this case I totally agree with Ringo's assessment. No way are the the two songs identical. ( PS- I'm speaking as a musician- diamonds and jewelry have always been a sideline for me- I am a musician in my soul, and still play professionally)

Part of this discussion that is thought provoking for me:
The need to balance protecting an original idea from identical copy- yet not doing so in a way that prevents creative minds from building on that idea.

Regardless of anyone's opinion of brown diamonds, I personally find the patent on the term "Chocolate Diamonds" to be....ridiculous.
 

Texas Leaguer

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Rockdiamond|1479937919|4102014 said:
Bryan, the judge was certainly entitled to his opinion and I also love George ( not my favorite Beatle, for me it's John)
In this case I totally agree with Ringo's assessment. No way are the the two songs identical. ( PS- I'm speaking as a musician- diamonds and jewelry have always been a sideline for me- I am a musician in my soul, and still play professionally)

Part of this discussion that is thought provoking for me:
The need to balance protecting an original idea from identical copy- yet not doing so in a way that prevents creative minds from building on that idea.

Regardless of anyone's opinion of brown diamonds, I personally find the patent on the term "Chocolate Diamonds" to be....ridiculous.
What type of music do you play? Should you change your screen name from Rock Diamond to Rock Star?
 

Rockdiamond

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Thank you for asking Bryan. Are you a musician as well?
I play the Pedal Steel Guitar- which is traditionally a country instrument- although I play a lot of other styles on it. I picked up my first Steel in 1996. You can't find even one in NYC to buy in any store.
In your neck of the woods there's plenty of PSG stores.
I was super lucky to be able to join a band called Gent Treadly in 1999.
We're a Grateful Dead tribute band.
In the picture below I'm on the right. This was 2004 and we had the great fortune to have Vince Welnick join the band. Vince was the last Keyboard player in the Dead- from 1992-1995, when Jerry died.
We were playing in a festival called "Schwagstock" about 150 miles west of St Louis.
It was a great time- I was able to actually run the business and go on tour for weeks at a stretch.

Lately I've been playing a lot more country- doing a Merle Haggard tribute. I do love Merle.



gent.jpg

PS= sorry for the major league threadjack
 

Texas Leaguer

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Rockdiamond|1479941017|4102022 said:
Thank you for asking Bryan. Are you a musician as well?
I play the Pedal Steel Guitar- which is traditionally a country instrument- although I play a lot of other styles on it. I picked up my first Steel in 1996. You can't find even one in NYC to buy in any store.
In your neck of the woods there's plenty of PSG stores.
I was super lucky to be able to join a band called Gent Treadly in 1999.
We're a Grateful Dead tribute band.
In the picture below I'm on the right. This was 2004 and we had the great fortune to have Vince Welnick join the band. Vince was the last Keyboard player in the Dead- from 1992-1995, when Jerry died.
We were playing in a festival called "Schwagstock" about 150 miles west of St Louis.
It was a great time- I was able to actually run the business and go on tour for weeks at a stretch.

Lately I've been playing a lot more country- doing a Merle Haggard tribute. I do love Merle.



gent.jpg

PS= sorry for the major league threadjack
That is way cool Dude!

I don't claim to be a musician - but I am pretty good at listening if I do say so myself. I have a soft spot for both the Dead and for Willie and Waylon and the Boys.

Actually, I go pretty equally between contemporary jazz (aka 'smooth' jazz), and Texas Folk.

BTW I highly recommend Willie Nelson's new autobiography. I always liked him a lot and saw him perform several times. He's got a great story and tells it beautifully in his simple, laid back style. So now he is not only an iconic singer/songwriter, movie star, and urban legend. He is a best selling author! And deservedly so.

Man, we are WAY off topic now!
 

royalstarrynight

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As someone who learned from this recently, making a decent replica is far from easy.
Some vendors like BE and DK will give you cheap quotes and tell you it's possible even easy.

But if you're detail oriented, it's worth to go back to an artist who's done it before and is comfortable with it to give them credit.
 

Rockdiamond

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You rock Bryan. I always knew we had a lot in common
I am so jealous that you've seen WIllie....
 

Rockdiamond

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Great point royalstarrynight

No matter who they buy from, one thing I always recommend to consumers is to insist in seeing actual examples of a shops work as opposed to verbal assurances.
 

distracts

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lambskin|1479873100|4101713 said:
Who invented the first halo design? The first bypass? The first five stone band? The three stone engagement ring-side baguettes? A graduated pearl necklace. These designs are several decades old and are often replicated without issue or pause. Where copying is objectionable is when a specific artist's design or a jewelry house labeled piece (VCA Alahambra, Cartier Trinity ring etc) is exactly copied.

I think you'll find that most of the designs mentioned are several centuries old. For those, as long as you are doing a general take or a specific take you haven't seen before, it's no issue. If there is one that is some sort of unique take and you are copying it, there may be an issue.

Just fyi the Cartier trinity ring design has also been around centuries. That particular design is not one where I'd think you'd run into copyright issues, because someone other than Cartier came up with the idea a long time before Cartier ever had it.

My issue with copying a design - beyond intellectual property issues - is that copied designs very often just don't look like the originals. I'd rather save up and spend more to get the right thing than to get something that bugged me when I looked at it. Different jewelers have different kinds of personal styles and skills and all bring something different to the table. And depending on the design you want, it could be that one of the things you really liked without realizing you liked it so much was some subtle touch of proportions that the original creator mastered that the replica by someone else doesn't get right. When I am spending so much money on a piece of jewelry, I just don't want to risk something like that going wrong.

David - totally cool!! I would never have guessed, out of all the things, that you were in a Grateful Dead tribute band!
 

Rockdiamond

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OMG threadjacking again- thank you Distracts!
We're playing Friday night in Westchester county....for any PS DeadHeads in NY area....if you come identify yourself for a free vivid yellow guitar pick
 

flyingpig

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Legal and copyright laws.. I am not familiar.

Generally speaking..
Make the best effort to get the original from the original designer.
If not feasible, then copy.

For my wedding, I copied someone else's cake design. I did the same for flower arrangement. This is being highly encouraged among vendors. Every single vendor I visited their reply was "get some photos from Pinterest"
Of course, cakes and flowers arrangement cannot be shipped from LA to NY or NY to LA. Still, fundamentally, my vendors and I stole someone's designs.

In the restaurant industry, chefs copy other chefs' recipe and dishes. Not ethical, but reality to remain competitive. Applying for a copyright/patent does not work in the food industry, because you reveal your "secret" recipe in the process. So the attitude is more like "if you want to copy, go ahead, but I make the original"

In the fashion industry, copying is everywhere. Chanel Flap bag, LV Alma, Hermes Birkin. Celine Luggage Tote..
Is it wrong to buy a replica at $300 from Michael Kor/Coach, instead of spending $1500+ for the original?

From the creator of Minecraft
“Piracy is not theft…If you steal a car, the original is lost. If you copy a game, there are simply more of them in the world….There is no such thing as a ‘lost sale’…Is a bad review a lost sale? What about a missed ship date?"
Of course, this is just from one person from a different industry. Just a different view.
 

MarlonN

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I think you have some pretty valid points there, RockDiamond. It's more about inspiration. As long as you know that you're not copying the actual design as it is, but rather using design elements here and there to help inspire your own work, I don't see anything wrong with that.
 
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