Oh No: feather in bad place, what to do?

[elmo]

Date: 12/27/2004 1:38:43 AM
Author: about2Bengaged
Even the appraiser''s opinion was a bit mixed.

As suggested in this thread, most appraisers won''t tell you not to buy something; they will only give you information on which to base your own decision. Since most appraisers "are very cautious about the words [they] use to describe any diamond", consider what it might mean for yours to have mentioned this at all as a potential issue.

Chubb is great. However I wouldn''t want to feel like I had to have an active policy for something for the rest of my life due to a potential condition issue.

 

[denverappraiser]

about2Bengaged,

Like many PS discussions, this has evolved into an academic conversation about some pretty interesting things and we've danced away from your original concern. The bottom line is that if you are unhappy with your stone and feel another would more acceptable to you, take it back. It's usually pretty easy to remove the stone from the setting and replace it with another one and most vendors will be happy to cooperate if it will help to settle a customers concerns. If this has added a nagging worry that is going to stay with you forever (and it will) you should deal with it now and get a stone that you can love 'unconditionally'. Take it back.

Chubb is a quality company with excellent service. Jewelers Mutual and Firemans Fund also are well regarded and are typically a little less expensive. Most homeowners policies are about half that price but, as is regularly discussed here, they offer a less desirable service as well. It's a tradeoff of cost against quality and, unfortunately, it's not all that easy a decision.

Neil Beaty
Independent Appraisals in Denver

 

[about2Bengaged]

We were able to get in touch with the vendor yesterday, and this only seems to get more muddy.

I''ll say again that I can''t find one bad post on pricescope about this vendor, so I won''t "out" them, but some doubts are creeping into my mind.

The person with whom I spoke seemed a little defensive when told that the appraiser didn''t tell us "get out of here, you''re just paranoid" when we asked about the inclusion. And I don''t think this vendor would intentionally sell us something that could be problematic.

But I could see that this vendor is going to do everything they can to talk us into keeping the one we have. We were told by the vendor that many VS2''s have feathers and many diamonds have small feathers that reach the surface. Reading this forum, we doubt either of these claims are true and are wondering whether we should just ask for our money back and continue our search elsewhere.

The only saving grace about this feather is its size (the only real problem is the location after all). Putting a prong over it is another option (suggested here and suggested by the vendor who already has our cash and wants to spend as little time as possible on us), and it might be the easiest thing for us to do as well as we like the stone otherwise. While it won''t make the feather disappear, it will at least conceal it and perhaps protect the diamond a little better. Should we go this route, and are there things to be careful of? I guess the small chance for the feather to expand would still be there, but I''d be less concerned about that as much as having dirt from the prong getting inside the diamond. What do you think? We know the diamond will have to be cleaned and the prongs will have to be checked/adjusted every once in a while.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Dear About 2 be signed up, I think you have a bad case of too much info. People here are in my view scaring you crazy.
Your option of covering as much of the feather as possible seems the better route.

If however they have scared you beyond the point that you could not rest, then you must fight to have the stone replaced.

i appeal to some of the regulars here, who in their efforts to help, could to consider the effect that their comments can have on peoples peace of mind.

 

[aljdewey]

Date: 12/28/2004 5:29:24 PM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

I think you have a bad case of too much info. People here are in my view scaring you crazy.

i appeal to some of the regulars here, who in their efforts to help, could to consider the effect that their comments can have on peoples peace of mind.

Garry, could you be more specific? What precisely do you take exception to?

 

[RockDoc]

Date: 12/27/2004 1:38:43 AM
Author: about2Bengaged
Thanks for your comments, everyone.

I can''t believe the variety of opinions I''m getting on this. I wish they''d all be on one side or the other though, as it''s getting awfully confusing. Even the appraiser''s opinion was a bit mixed. We look at the inclusion with a 10x loupe I purchased and can see it from the top, have difficulty from the side, and can''t really feel it (although I did at the appraiser''s when he showed me exactly how). So that speaks to the size of it, but the idea of what in layman''s terms really is a ''crack on the surface'' is a bit unnerving. But as the last few days went by (hopefully everyone here enjoyed their holidays as much as we did), we''re convincing ourselves a little of what the appraiser was saying -- that you need to be careful with diamonds anyway and that any ''bang'' on it that''s hard enough can cause it to chip or break anyway, whether or not the feather was there.

As for insurance, I live in the NYC area and Chubb is charging me 4% of the appraised value per year (that seems like an awful lot and am wondering if the local agent is collecting too fat a commission). They do seem to offer the most comprehensive coverage, but I''m not sure that should factor into my decision to keep or exchange. I know how insurance companies work and am not at all eager to wait for something bad to happen and think, ''Ha! I knew this would break, and I''m glad Chubb is eagerly waiting to cut me a check!'' Rather, the ring will have more sentimental value as time goes on, and it''d be more of a heartbreaker (and a hassle) if something bad happened to it -- feather or no feather.

Hopefully I can get in touch with the vendor tomorrow, who is a knowledgeable pricescope vendor and not be talked into a decision that''s not in our best interests.

RE: Fat Commission

The agency gets a small commission. If its an average priced stone 3-5K - the agent probably makes $ 5.00 a year, which is why many agents for Chubb won''t even write the insurance without homeowners and car insurance too.

Depending on the agency, the agent may only get a commissio the first year.


4% in the NY area isn''t that high. When I was in PA,a lady there had an insurance policy that Lloyd''s was charging her 7%

Rates do vary from state to state, but in my opinion you got a good deal on this.

Rockdoc

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 12/28/2004 9

9:33 PM
Author: aljdewey

Date: 12/28/2004 5:29:24 PM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

I think you have a bad case of too much info. People here are in my view scaring you crazy.

i appeal to some of the regulars here, who in their efforts to help, could to consider the effect that their comments can have on peoples peace of mind.

Garry, could you be more specific? What precisely do you take exception to?

Scaring people needlessly - let the appraisers do that (It is their job

)

 

[fire&ice]

Date: 12/28/2004 11:49

7 PM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

Date: 12/28/2004 9

9:33 PM
Author: aljdewey

Date: 12/28/2004 5:29:24 PM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

I think you have a bad case of too much info. People here are in my view scaring you crazy.

i appeal to some of the regulars here, who in their efforts to help, could to consider the effect that their comments can have on peoples peace of mind.

Garry, could you be more specific? What precisely do you take exception to?

Scaring people needlessly - let the appraisers do that (It is their job

)

This person asked for opinions. I gave mine. I have a problem with feathers. Always have. I''ve personally seen a stone cleave after setting. Why is this scaring the person? No one - and I do mean no one can rest assured, without careful review of the stone, make an opinion on this specific stone. You can not unequivocally state that I am needlessly scaring people.

For my piece of mind, I stay away from feathers in general. I''m not scaring the person. They are the only one who can be O.K. with it. If it''s going to be a constant nagging in the back of their mind, then they shouldn''t buy it. PERIOD.

I don''t think it is the vendors responsibility to massage the buyer into keeping it. On the other hand, nothing is perfect. One must always have to accept something. If the pros far outweigh the cons, then one must deal with some issue. Only the buyer can know whether this is a deal breaker to them.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

F&I did the diamond break along the feather?
Or did it cleave?
the two are very different, and cleavage is more likely in a flawless diamond.

 

[jackson]

What IS cleavage? That''s really scarry! An IF diamond that breaks! Ouch!

 

[about2Bengaged]

If it weren''t my $5K purchase on the line, I''d really enjoy this debate.

I can really appreciate the wisdom in the last part of F&I''s message: weigh the pros and cons, you have to accept something, and know what your deal-breakers are. She has a problem w/ feathers. Some are bothered by other things, and most people seem to blindly make their purchases at Zales or Macy''s and go on with their merry lives.

We really like this stone otherwise, and even the appraiser said this lower-end VS2 surface-reaching feather in all likelihood won''t be a problem. Since his opinion - he''s the only unbiased professional to actually see the stone - was cautiously optimistic, we think a solution that''s "down-the-middle" would be the best. We think we''d be comfortable-enough putting the inclusion under a prong. If I remember what the widths of the prong and feather seemed to be under the microscope, I think this can be done.

Any comments on "pronging it", and are there any precautions we should be taking, now or in the future?

Thanks, in advance, for your input.

 

[Maxine]

Hope the technical people can help you...after that, please put it behind you and RELAX.....you can''t control everything......

 

[Dancing Fire]

Date: 12/29/2004 3:20:58 PM
Author: jackson
What IS cleavage? That''s really scarry! An IF diamond that breaks! Ouch!

men''s don''t mind seeing some cleavage.

 

[Maxine]

That certainly is true!! (the men and cleavage part!!!!)

 

[about2Bengaged]

You might not know it since I''m so wordy, but I''m the guy in the relationship (the fiance with one "e"). Don''t get me wrong, I love cleavage -- but a ring finger is not the place I want to see it.

Now can we get back on topic please, lol...........
"prong it" -- yes/no, why/why not, anything to watch out for in doing so?

 

[about2Bengaged]

anyone, please?

 

[Rowan]

My opinion is to "prong it", not worry about it, and rest assured that if anything happens your insurace will cover it, but try to put it out of the forefront of your minds.

 

[hoorray]

I''m not an expert, so if I were in your shoes, I would consider several things: 1. the experts are not scaring you away from this stone, 2. the probability of insurance not paying off if there were to be a problem sounds very low. 3. Dancing Fire''s signature about "it''s hard to find a mind clean stone".

At the end of the day you have to weigh 2 things -- whether this represents a real risk of breakage and loss, and, whether you will think about it and let the mental part get in the way of feeling good about the stone. Both are valid.... If you can''t get comfortable with both, you ought to think about returning it. However, the mental part is easy to let get out of control. I would weigh the experts'' advice seriously, and if you can''t get comfortable, return the stone. It''s something special tha tyou should feel good about.

 

[fire&ice]

O.K. - I'm too lazy to see if your appraiser addressed this issue - what did he/she say about it. Against my principle, I bought an SI w/ a feather close to the surface for ear-rings for my niece. All other critiria was great - price, cut, match, color, size, etc. I asked about pronging it - it wasn't recommended.

I think you will get lots of views on this. In the end, I would trust my setter.

Good luck.

 

[fire&ice]

Date: 12/29/2004 2:49:26 PM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)
F&I did the diamond break along the feather?
Or did it cleave?
the two are very different, and cleavage is more likely in a flawless diamond.

Probably using the wrong terminology. One of the reasons I am so sensitive about feathers is - when my jeweler was working on procuring my stone - he was also involved in a amicable settlement regarding a stone that "cleaved further" along the feather when someone worked on the ring. He was the impartial go-between who indeed confirmed the problem. I vaguely remember the conversation going in the direction of "dang feathers" with other stories about it. It may have been the crisis du-jour; but, it was enough to plant the seed in my head about the feathers.

 

[RockDoc]

Date: 12/29/2004 3:41:15 PM
Author: about2Bengaged
You might not know it since I''m so wordy, but I''m the guy in the relationship (the fiance with one ''e''). Don''t get me wrong, I love cleavage -- but a ring finger is not the place I want to see it.

Now can we get back on topic please, lol...........
''prong it'' -- yes/no, why/why not, anything to watch out for in doing so?

Logic.

If the stone has 6 prongs, much of the edge of the diamond won''t be exposed like it will with a 4 prong setting.

So if you hit the side chances are that you''ll hit a prong If the feather is set away from the prong) in that

Some of this depends on the metal used to set the stone. If you have platinum prongs they are fairly strong and don''t move in a hit. Gold on the other hand will bend as it is so much softer than gold. So putting a prong over a feather MIGHT not be the best way to go.

IMO the only benefit of putting a feather under a prong, is to hide it.

Another suggestion is to set it in a ring with a bezel. That may offer more protection, since the edge of the stone isn''t exposed at all.

The above to me makes sense ... there may be opinion that is dissenting with mine, but debate is sometimes good.

Incidently, I am not trying to scare you.....just giving you my opinion. The issue of where to position the diamond in the setting needs more attention and consideration of other factors. If your stone is inscribed and you choose to cover the feather with a prong, will the inscription also be hidden by a prong. WIll changing its position put a prong in a bad position with the cleavage direction of the diamond? Is their strain in this stone and where is it, and what color is the strain, and how much is there. Another consideration is the thickness of the girdle....

These are things that a PROFESSIONAL Setter should weigh and discuss with you. To render an opinion that is "final" without seeing the stone is professionally reckless.

I agree with Fire and Ice that there is no fear, and Gary shouldn''t make accusations about appraisers scaring people. These are necessary opinions that you verify with the jewelers there in person.

Every stone is different and only seeing it can give a more accurate opinion for you. Blind opinion has some value, but not the same as opinion rendered by a professional that can actually see the situation.

Platinumsmith has very good opinion here, and if he isn''t far from you, it might make sense to make the trip to him to see what he says.

Hope this helps and clarifies

Rockdoc

 

[about2Bengaged]

RockDoc,

Just FYI, the setting has two smaller side-stones, and the center stone in question is round and held by 4 prongs. The entire setting is in platinum, and we''re certainly not going to change it.

We are not like most people on pricescope and have the ring more as a traditional, nice, one-time gift and have no plans to upgrade either the setting or the diamonds it holds.

As for doing a re-set, it came from the vendor already set, and the inclusion wasn''t covered. Perhaps there was a good reason for that. We''re returning the ring to the vendor and they (or more likely their jeweler) would re-set it. We''ll be sure to ask the right questions based on your points.

 

[about2Bengaged]

Fire&Ice, I understand your not wanting to wade through this entire thread, but while the appraiser was hesitant about telling me what to do (there''s another thread on this somewhere that most appraisers don''t), he helped me consider all the facts...

The conversation went something like this...
~ The feather is pretty small -- GIA VS2 (lower end, on the side closer to SI1) (PRO)
~ Feathers aren''t the "preferred" type of inclusion -- esp. a surface-reaching one in the crown (CON)
~ If any diamond is impacted at the wrong strength and at the wrong angle, it''s going to chip or break anyway, so the additional risk of having this feather is really small (PRO)
~ I have insurance (PRO)
~ I probably put him on the spot when I asked, "What would you do?" He said he''d have no problem keeping it, because in all likelihood it''s still going to last forever -- through everyday wear, routine maintenance, etc. He turned the table and asked, "Are you comfortable? If so, keep it. If not, take it back." I haven''t been comfortable until I actually saw the diamond again, saw how nice it was and how small the inclusion was through a loupe. I will be comfortable if the inclusion is hidden under a prong, which, pending the questions I need to ask the vendor, is what we''d like to do with it. If it can''t be done, then the search for a new stone begins.....

 

[elmo]

Date: 12/30/2004 3:39:42 PM
Author: about2Bengaged
GIA VS2 (lower end, on the side closer to SI1) (PRO)

I realize I''m taking this a little out of context, but I wouldn''t consider a stone being on the low side of the clarity grade a PRO.

 

[about2Bengaged]

From what I gathered from both the vendor and the appraiser (long before this feather issue), clarity grading is a bit of a judgment call, so I''m not expecting all VS2''s to be equal. FWIW, the stone is GIA-rated and the appraiser agreed with the rating. I considered it a pro b/c the GIA graded the stone as high as VS2 even with this inclusion and not, say, an I2 like the one in a recent thread started by someone else.

I''ve thought about this enough, and am really grateful for all the opinions on pricescope, and we''ve decided that "pronging it" sounds like the most reasonable thing to do, if it can be done safely.

 

[Dropdown3]

This thread has finally cooled off, and I hate to fire it back up. However, even though I''m not qualified to make a statement about any diamond, common logic tells me that a feather hidden by a prong creates more pressure on the feather. Am I right or wrong?

The diamond I just bought from WF, .93 Princess SI1 H, has a light feather in the top right corner right at the 90 degree mark where the prong sits. It''s nowhere near the table, and I''m not worrying about it because Lastovica Jewelry Appraisal Services said my diamond was in perfect condition.

Obviously, in your case, you are going to worry about it. In that case, I say exchange it and don''t worry about what the "experts" say.

Chuck