Find your diamond
Find your jewelry
shape
carat
color
clarity

Oh No: feather in bad place, what to do?

Status
Not open for further replies. Please create a new topic or request for this thread to be opened.
A

about2Bengaged

Rough_Rock
Joined
Oct 1, 2004
Messages
33

Hi, everyone. I''m worried about something. I purchased a certified diamond (mounted) online from a PriceScope.com vendor, and am now engaged for a couple of weeks. We had the ring appraised, and we found out that while it''s not really visible with the naked eye, there''s a feather that extends to the side surface. It''s in the crown, near the girdle (rated "thin" in some places) and can be felt if you run your finger across in just the right way. The GIA rated this diamond VS2, and looking at it from the top through a loupe, the feather was certainly less than one-tenth the diameter. It''s mounted in a prong setting, but the prong doesn''t cover the inclusion.


Unfortunately, I didn''t read any old posts on this type of inclusion in this location (which seems BAD) before I bought the diamond, and we''ve grown attached to it now. But we still have some time before the return guarantee runs out. I now know that these types of feathers can get worse to the point where they''re visible, and that diamonds that have these inclusions in the wrong locations (such as ours) are more likely to chip or break altogether. From what I gather, this doesn''t happen too often if one is reasonably careful (which one should be anyway, with or without this feather).


So, is my understanding right? And, should we exchange the diamond? If not, should we do anything special to protect it in the future? Part of us says "keep it - although new, it''s already become special," but another says "bring it back - this can be a disaster." If the chances are remote of anything happening to it, diamonds can chip or break anyway, we''d like to keep it. It''s a tough call, and I thought I did all my homeworkl...

Thank you.
 
What did the appraiser say about the feather? I guess I wonder how bad a feather can be in a VS stone, but I really don''t know. If the appraiser says it''s not in danger of spreading or cracking the stone, then I would keep it and enjoy it. Of course you should always keep it insured!
 
Did the appraiser agree with the VS2 grade? Were they concerned about the breakage risk?

By a lot, the most dangerous thing a diamond goes through is the cutters wheel. It''s always possible to chip a stone but this stone has already been through quite a bit before it got to you. The concern of feathers extending for no good reason is EXTREMELY unusual. I agree with Patty, buy an insurance policy and go about your life.

If it''s a round stone, you might consider rotating it to place the prong on top of the feather. This will serve the dual purpose of concealing it and it adds a token amount of protection.

Neil Beaty
Independent Appraisals in Denver
 
What about the insurance part....just called my agent yesterday...was thrilled w/the thorough appraisal,etc....said loss, mysterious disapperance, fire all covered no deductible, but that to cover against breakage would cost about 2-3 times more.....any knowledge of this?
33.gif
 
Hi, Patty. The appraiser brought up the fact that the location of the inclusion, and the fact that it is a feather is not exactly desirable. The VS2 rating (which he said could''ve been graded SI1) takes into account a number of things: that it''s under the facets and not easily visible [not yet at least, is what I thought], that it''s the only noteworthy inclusion, and that is isn''t all that big (looking at it from the top, I was able to see it through the loupe and right now, it appears small to my amateur eyes). If it were larger and had I noticed this sooner, we would''ve returned it without question.

He also said that while all that bad stuff could happen, it wasn''t very likely, and if any diamond is hit hard enough, it would likely chip anyway - with or without this unfortunately placed inclusion. I asked about having it cleaned, and having the rings'' prongs maintained, and he said that shouldn''t cause enough stress for something bad to happen. It''s way too soon to think about upgrades or a change in settings, so I didn''t ask about that, but maybe that would be a problem. Most people I know (outside of pricescope) have kept their settings for years anyway.

I do have insurance on it through Chubb, but I''m shopping around for a lower rate, and that''s a post for another day.
 
Responding to the newer posts...

I think I''d be covered for the diamond breaking, but it''d be worthwhile to read the policy extremely thoroughly. I''m not so much worried about the insurance part as I am about the idea of having to replace something with sentimental value while I still have the chance to have a little more "control of my own destiny."

I could sense some hesitation in the appraiser''s voice saying that the nightmarish scenarios I''ve read about on here could come to be, but the chances still seemed quite slim.

I put a lot of trust in what the appraiser said, but he said it really boils down to how comfortable we are with it. As newbies we think diamonds are precious and fragile and should be handled with care anyway. Like having a new car and trying to avoid the first "ding" or dent, we''re being super careful but don''t want to have the long-term worry as the novelty wears off. The vendor (who I won''t "out") has received nothing but great reviews on pricescope, and I doubt they''d sell me something really crappy. I guess I could ask to have it re-set to put the feather underneath a prong, but perhaps maybe there''s a good reason why it was set the way it was - the feather is right next to the prong. Taking it out and re-setting does have its risks too, I suppose. But I guess it doesn''t hurt to ask.

 
You should be more worried about the thin girdle part because that is likely to be along the octahedral sides and the greatest risk of chipping.
The VS2 feather is very unlikely to be a problem - but by all means have the stone turned.
http://www.diamondengagementrings.bz/der_enquiry.asp?RN=007&FP=ring%207&RC=1 this shows my solution to damage in soloitaires - the setting has the sides protected because the setting is rotated - not quite as flattering - but very effective.

I also strongly resist 4 prong high Tiffany style rings unless the girdle is slightly thick or thicker.
 
Oops - renamed the file

Chipping zone1.jpg
 
Thanks, Garry. I already have a custom setting that we love and it''s not refundable anyway. It seems to be of very good quality -- it''s not a high setting and there are side stones with 4 prongs holding the middle. Maybe not the absolute safest, but I''m not all that concerned. But perhaps a"re-set" is in order here though, at the very least to cover the feather. The girdle is thin-to-slightly thick, and the appraiser said the "thin" seemed pretty conservative. I''m pretty sure he worked at the GIA, so I trust him. He seemed to think the clarity was at the low end of VS2.
 
I learned something from that picture. I would''ve thought the side most susceptible to damage (besides the table) would be the one closest to the fingertips. There''s so much to this diamond stuff. :)
 
So where did I hear that surface-reaching feathers are to be avoided? I want to think that's been mentioned several times. More than one jeweler I've worked with has checked for this without me asking and commented that the feather doesn't reach the surface when one is noted on the plot. But the pros here don't seem concerned at all. One that I could actually feel would give me the willies.
 
[duplicate post deleted]
 
If it was me Id return it and have a sharp word or 3 with the vendor.
Life is 2 short to have to worry about your diamond all the time.
If you wanted a highly breakable diamond you would have bought a princess cut... right?
PM me which vendor it was please.
 
I sometimes wonder who starts these myths.

Probably a GIA lecturer 30 years ago.

It seems the feather does not break the crown suface - correct?
It is visible through the crown, but can be felt on the girdle. Since you are attached to the stone - you have probably invested time and effort buying it and it is going to be hard to get it off a finger etc - Just have it positioned so it is under a prong.

if it was a risk GIA would not have given it a VS grade.
 
myth?
Its a fact that there are some issues with open feathers.
I could probably find a case where you said so yourself.

Why I asked the vendor is that the PS vendors I recomend keep a sharp eye out for it and Im curious if one of them goofed up or if it was one of the other vendors.
The majority of the PS diamonds sold are premium goods and premium goods should not have such issues.
If I wanted diamonds with issues id buy from a drop shipper that never sees the diamond and save some money.
When I pay extra for the vendor to look the diamonds over first they sure had better weed stones with issues out.
 
Date: 12/22/2004 4:52:13 PM
Author:about2Bengaged

I now know that these types of feathers can get worse to the point where they''re visible,

and that diamonds that have these inclusions in the wrong locations (such as ours) are more likely to chip or break altogether
Click to expand...
A crack on a thin girdle does not sound great, I understand that bit...

but where is the part about growing feathers comming from ?
33.gif
 
Date: 12/23/2004 8:43:32 AM
Author: valeria101
Date: 12/22/2004 4:52:13 PM

Author:about2Bengaged


I now know that these types of feathers can get worse to the point where they''re visible,


and that diamonds that have these inclusions in the wrong locations (such as ours) are more likely to chip or break altogether

Click to expand...

A crack on a thin girdle does not sound great, I understand that bit...


but where is the part about growing feathers comming from ?
33.gif
Click to expand...
From PS experts.
Do a search on open feathers and you will find the info.
It has been discussed many times.
 
I must have looked in the wrong place through
7.gif


There are lots of posts about inclusions becomming more visible as owners get used to the stones and know where to look, or becomming more visible as rings get worn and dirty... This sort of thing. No conclusive info about feathers being unstable - let alone VS2 sized ones.

Anyway, this thread may be worth a look (about insurance claims and cracks). Always worth to search !
1.gif
 
Thanks for your responses everyone.

- the feather does not reach the table, it reaches the surface on the side of the crown
- the vendor does not "drop ship"
- I saw the diamond myself, and it fit my clarity parameter - VS2. I didn''t know what a feather was, and didn''t think to ask about it. It''s only after I received the ring, had it appraised, and returned to pricescope to do a search on "feather AND surface" did I realize that it could be a problem. Afterwards, I called contacted the appraiser again and he said that it''s fairly small, but given the location, he didn''t exactly give it a ringing endorsement. But he didn''t make it sound like the end of the world either, and he said he''d keep it. But he said it''s about us being comfortable. Just the fact that I''m worrying about this for three days (still in the euphoria of being recently engaged), my instinct is telling me to go through the trouble of getting another stone. That means researching, finding it (willing to use the same vendor - they have my money and have otherwise been great) getting the new one appraised, etc, just for long-term peace of mind. It''s a shame though, because everything else about the stone we currently have is great - it''s the small, potentially problematic feather.
 
I''d rather buy a stone with visable inclusions than one with a feather - especially one that reaches the surface. I do agree that a VS rating would preclude a problematic feather - but this doesn''t seem to be the case. Could the appraiser have an agenda?
 
I don''t think the appraiser has any agenda at all. I trust him completely. He didn''t seem like he was overly concerned about it, but presented the case that something bad could happen (which is true of any stone as he pointed out) but just from the fact that he had some reservation bothers me. I think the his message boiled down to "keep it unless it really bothers you," but my fiancee and I are split on this.
 
Feathers can expand. I can not comment on your particular stone. The danger is there, though. If you love the stone, as stated before - have it insured. I believe Chubbs will cover breakage.

Perhaps you should have another conversation with your appraiser. Maybe he/she can put a probability on it.
 
I wouldn''t mind seeing comments from some of the other pros here about VS-2 feathers that reach the surface of the crown and that can be felt with your fingertip, since we''re seeing advice that is at odds with conventional wisdom.

Always learning...
 
Date: 12/24/2004 8:53:17 AM
Author: elmo
I wouldn''t mind seeing comments from some of the other pros here about VS-2 feathers that reach the surface of the crown and that can be felt with your fingertip, since we''re seeing advice that is at odds with conventional wisdom.
Click to expand...
Actually, have you ever found a page (laundry list, if not tutorial) on what exactly may impair diamonds'' durability ? I haven''t...

Obviously this must be a rather delicate subject, but still, perhaps some reasonable intro can be made without much danger of making the piece resenble scare tactics.
 
On this current thread https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/did-gia-make-a-mistake-here.22979/ a VVSi feather was described like this:

Rhino
GoodOldGold.com>>>>

Is this sounding like being a little bit pregnant.

The point you raise is a very good one Ana - where is the evidence that a feather = a broken diamond? I have seen heaps of broken diamonds in 30 years. I have not made this obvious connection - but maybe I need to see 1000 times more stones - and if that is true - then the risk is soooo small - that it is not of great consequence.
 
Date: 12/26/2004 4:41:49 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

... maybe I need to see 1000 times more stones - and if that is true - then the risk is soooo small - that it is not of great consequence.
Click to expand...
The thread about VVS (and others) make me believe that no risk is acceptable since there is seldom any mention that diamonds are actually not indestructible
7.gif
...

If anyone is crazy enough to do a breackage test
9.gif
that could conclude zero risk for some events (such as occurence of surface breacking feathers). Guess cutters do that for a living, right ?
31.gif
 
I''ll offer what little I can contribute to this.

When I was looking at .30 side stones for my e-ring, I found two that met my criteria. When I got info from the vendor on them, I learned that one of the stones had a feather that reached the surface on the *pavilion* of the diamond.

I asked my appraiser if this was something to be concerned about. His reply (paraphrased because it''s based on recollection from nearly 9 months ago) was it shouldn''t be a concern and that he would feel comfortable buying such a diamond himself. He commented that once mounted, the pavilion side of the diamond would be shielded from hard strikes or abuse and as such, the feather wouldn''t be an issue.
 
Date: 12/22/2004 5:28:12 PM
Author: about2Bengaged
Hi, Patty. The appraiser brought up the fact that the location of the inclusion, and the fact that it is a feather is not exactly desirable. The VS2 rating (which he said could''ve been graded SI1) takes into account a number of things: that it''s under the facets and not easily visible [not yet at least, is what I thought], that it''s the only noteworthy inclusion, and that is isn''t all that big (looking at it from the top, I was able to see it through the loupe and right now, it appears small to my amateur eyes). If it were larger and had I noticed this sooner, we would''ve returned it without question.

He also said that while all that bad stuff could happen, it wasn''t very likely, and if any diamond is hit hard enough, it would likely chip anyway - with or without this unfortunately placed inclusion. I asked about having it cleaned, and having the rings'' prongs maintained, and he said that shouldn''t cause enough stress for something bad to happen. It''s way too soon to think about upgrades or a change in settings, so I didn''t ask about that, but maybe that would be a problem. Most people I know (outside of pricescope) have kept their settings for years anyway.

I do have insurance on it through Chubb, but I''m shopping around for a lower rate, and that''s a post for another day.
Click to expand...

Patty...

Chubb is about the best coverage you can get. Finding a cheaper policy may be the wrong decision. Chubb pays their claims in money and you can find what you want.

This insurance is called As Agreed Value, and it is a FAR superior policy to replacement type policies .

RE: How would the insurance know about a feather... If your stone is GIA graded ( or other major lab) it''s on the report. As David wrote, in a replacement policy there may be an issue of inherent vice. Chubb basically pays its claims as long it doesn''t appear that there is a deliberate intent to cover up a material fact concerning the diamond.

I don''t prefer stones that have a feather that is open to the surface. If you can feel the feather examine the stone for any strain issues, particularly around the feather it has?

However, if you keep the stone, I''d also strongly keep Chubb''s coverage too. If they charge slightly higher premium , it is for a better policy that those that are cheaper offer, so its fully worth it. In most states Chubb isn''t much more than the replacement type "crummy" policy.

Rockdoc
 
Thanks for your comments, everyone.

I can''t believe the variety of opinions I''m getting on this. I wish they''d all be on one side or the other though, as it''s getting awfully confusing. :) Even the appraiser''s opinion was a bit mixed. We look at the inclusion with a 10x loupe I purchased and can see it from the top, have difficulty from the side, and can''t really feel it (although I did at the appraiser''s when he showed me exactly how). So that speaks to the size of it, but the idea of what in layman''s terms really is a "crack on the surface" is a bit unnerving. But as the last few days went by (hopefully everyone here enjoyed their holidays as much as we did), we''re convincing ourselves a little of what the appraiser was saying -- that you need to be careful with diamonds anyway and that any "bang" on it that''s hard enough can cause it to chip or break anyway, whether or not the feather was there.

As for insurance, I live in the NYC area and Chubb is charging me 4% of the appraised value per year (that seems like an awful lot and am wondering if the local agent is collecting too fat a commission). They do seem to offer the most comprehensive coverage, but I''m not sure that should factor into my decision to keep or exchange. I know how insurance companies work and am not at all eager to wait for something bad to happen and think, "Ha! I knew this would break, and I''m glad Chubb is eagerly waiting to cut me a check!" Rather, the ring will have more sentimental value as time goes on, and it''d be more of a heartbreaker (and a hassle) if something bad happened to it -- feather or no feather.

Hopefully I can get in touch with the vendor tomorrow, who is a knowledgeable pricescope vendor and not be talked into a decision that''s not in our best interests.
 
Why settled for something that is not 100% satifactory????If I have a chance, I''d return it and get another one that makes me happy for life. Is is for an engagement...
 
Status
Not open for further replies. Please create a new topic or request for this thread to be opened.
GET 3 FREE HCA RESULTS JOIN THE FORUM. ASK FOR HELP
Jewelry Blog
PriceScope-Concierge-Ad
Find prime cuts.
Top