Oh Girls :-(

[chocolatefudge]

I feel sooo disappointed- AGAIN!! SO told me on my birthday that he had wanted to propose but hadn''t had enough money to get me the ring he wanted. He said that he was starting to save and it would take about two months (this was in February.) I was really happy that eventually I had some sort of firm timeline and have been hoping for an April proposal. You may have seen a thread a few weeks ago where I said I hoped he may do it when I return home from Spain.

Anyway, I just feel stupid and upset now because it looks like it''s not going to be happening soon. I was ill over the weekend and had yesterday off work. He rang me to say he would go food shopping after work and could I transfer some money to him to cover half the shopping because he was a bit short. I did this and was secretly thinking that he was short of money because of having saved for my ring. When he got home I jokingly said something about him not having much money but having some for my ring. He just said, "I haven''t been able to save any this month babe, it''s been a tough month." I didn''t know what to say but thought he was just trying to throw me off the scent as I know he will definitely want the whole thing to be a surprise.

Last night when we went to bed I asked him something about how long it was going to be and he got annoyed- like he always used to. He said I was psychotic about gettin married!! I said that he never saw it from my point and that I had been waiting for something that he had promised me for almost the last five years and couldn''t he see how hard that was?
He said, "I didn''t mean it then did I, it was just something I was going along with at the time." Well I can understand this slightly as we were both still students and wouldn''t have made sense to get engaged then.
He made some comment about struggling to afford anything now we had the house, nevermind a ring. And then he made some comment about never affording a wedding. This is something I have worried about myself as each of us put half of monthly wage into the mortgage and bills and then we each have a car we are paying for plus insurance.
He said, "I could have afforded it before but now now."
So I was like, "Well why didn''t you ask me then???"
Then he started saying, "I don''t mean I had a massive amount of money, I just mean I''d had a couple of good months."

So I kept asking why he hadn''t asked me before and he just got annoyed and said he was sick of having the same conversation over and over. He kept saying that it''s something he wants too, not just something I want. Well I don''t want to sound negative, but I''m really struggling to believe that he can want to marry me so badly yet never ask me!!
I told him that I don''t need an expensive ring and in all honesty the ones I have shown him before haven''t been expensive. All he ever says is, "It will happen."
He talks about wanting to be with me forever and starting a family with me, but we both want to be married before children so I don''t know when he thinks this will happen.

He also said a few times, "You know getting married has never really bothered me."

This morning he got up and came to give me a cuddle and I could hardly look at him. He was being really nice but I just felt so bitter! I hate feeling like this. I asked him if it was all a trick and he wanted it to be a surprise and he just said no. He even told me to check him bank account, so I did... No savings taken out, no jewellery purchased.

It''s our 8 year anniversary in April and I feel no closer. Am so fed up of getting my hopes up but he just doesn''t understand.

Sorry for such a long rant

 

[gwendolyn]

Sweetie, I''m so sorry you''re feeling this way again, and that his conversation about the topic (as far as I can tell, anyway) seems to have regressed somewhat. He seems to get annoyed when you say you''ve been waiting for 5 years to get engaged because he says he didn''t mean it back then, but I''m sorry, that''s not YOUR fault that HE said something he didn''t mean! It''s unreasonable for him to behave otherwise.

Are you contemplating a trial separation if this keeps up, or are you happy to stay unmarried and unengaged for the foreseeable future? I can guess the answer, but I suppose what I''m trying to say is that it sounds like he needs a firm kick in the rear to actually get him to SHOW you that he seriously does want to marry you. Words are cheap, and if you''d be happy with a ring that isn''t terribly expensive, then he has no excuse.

*hugs*

 

[chocolatefudge]

Thanks Gwen. The trial speration idea is something I have seriously considered, not because I want to leave him but because I just really feel that this would make him realise how important it is to me and would sort things. However, now we have the house it seems very difficult! Neither of us could afford to live in it alone and I don''t know whether I should be asking him to leave or I should go! Either way it''s a bit messy.

In the back of my mind I am just praying that it is all a front and he doesn''t want to spoil the surprise. But maybe I am just being very naive... We are so so happy until it comes to getting married! I''m even getting to the point where I don''t know if it''s something I want anymore. He''s made something that I''ve always been so excited about seem like a huge inconvenience.

 

[jcarlylew]

i'm sorry hun *big hug*
guys just do not seem to understand the excitement we get. and when the conversation comes down to money, it always seems like a lost cause (trust me, that, i really get!).

I would say, after a few days from now, sit him down and just spill you guts - without him talking. You may talk in circles, you may take back things you said 10 minutes prior, but to me it sounds like he just needs to listen without thinking about how to respond right away (i get onto E about this a lot - he's always thinking of the next thing to say, instead of listening

). Then, do the same for him.
eta - while it may not resolve anything, he'll listen to what you have to way and why its frustrating to you and vise versa, without having a mini (or big) argument). Kind of like a therapy session. You might want to get a talking stick

*big hugs*
I hope you guys get past this - you already have a great home (new to you, right?), and the next steps should hopefully be a little less seamless from here out.

 

[chocolatefudge]

Yeah, the house is new to us. It''s actually a brand new house we bought it just before Christmas and we both love it. It''s way nicer than anything I thought we would ever live in. Everyone always tells us how lucky we are. Last night my SO kept saying how I was making it sound like I had a horrible life and I''m so sad and that''s not true, it''s just that I''ve always wanted to get married.
He doesn''t seem to get where I''m coming from. To him, money is a BIG thing and to have taken on the house with me he sees this as a huge commitment.He thinks that this shows me how serious he is about me. I''ve pointed out that we can easily sell a house if we were to split but he just looks at me like I''m mad!
I''ve started to think about the two of us running away somewhere and getting married but when I''ve mentioned this he says it isn''t what he wants. Also I know my family would be devetsated! They have been waiting for us to announce our engagement for years and to be honest I''ve always wanted a big wedding (not massive but more than just the two of us!)

I don''t understand why the whole thing is so hard. I thought two people in love = getting married???

Both our parents are happily married and noone we know is divorced so I don''t understand where his issues come from.

 

[jcarlylew]

*sigh* men.
I''m sorry

 

[Pandora II]

Date: 3/31/2009 6:28:41 AM
Author: chocolatefudge
Thanks Gwen. The trial speration idea is something I have seriously considered, not because I want to leave him but because I just really feel that this would make him realise how important it is to me and would sort things. However, now we have the house it seems very difficult! Neither of us could afford to live in it alone and I don't know whether I should be asking him to leave or I should go! Either way it's a bit messy.

In the back of my mind I am just praying that it is all a front and he doesn't want to spoil the surprise. But maybe I am just being very naive... We are so so happy until it comes to getting married! I'm even getting to the point where I don't know if it's something I want anymore. He's made something that I've always been so excited about seem like a huge inconvenience.

I'd been wondering what was up in your world - and truly hoping that you wouldn't be back with a post like this.

I mean this in the nicest possible way, but I just don't see him changing any time soon and I don't like the way he treats you over it.

My husband was/is supremely anti-marriage and made it very clear to me that he didn't see it as something we needed to do or that he wanted to do - and he was very happy to explain this to our friends/families, so it was no front. I made it clear to him that for me marriage and at least being open to the idea of children was non-negotiable and I wasn't going to hang around for ever if he didn't change his mind. Well, he's now my husband and first baby is due in 7 weeks...

It was the hardest conversation I'd ever had. I mean, why would you leave someone that you love enough to marry because they won't marry you? DH had always said that he wanted a permanent relationship - just not a legal arrangement such as marriage - so why couldn't I just settle for that? What was so important about this piece of paper anyway? I felt that I was being shallow and that people would think it was all about the ring/wedding etc

It came down to my realising that I was starting to resent his position on this - especially the more that people started asking when we were getting engaged, or watching our friends get engaged. At 34 I also wasn't getting any younger, and I wasn't prepared to have children without two rings on my finger!

The resentment I was feeling would eventually have eaten away at me and then the relationship, and acknowledging that was the catalyst for having to tell him how I really felt. We had several conversations over a number of weeks, and despite his aversion to matrimony, he never once made me feel stupid for how I felt, or got angry or was anything other than understanding.

I admit that my first words when he proposed a few months later were: OMG, have I bullied you into this? rather than 'Yes', and his reply was that he still didn't like the idea of marriage, but I wanted it more than he didn't want it and the most important thing to him was to make me happy.

I'm not seeing your BF putting your happiness as his top priority. Even if he really was in a situation where he couldn't afford the ring etc, he should be doing everything to make you feel loved and reassured - not calling you psychotic.

I can pretty much assure you 100% that his behaviour is not a front. If he really wanted to get engaged, he would either be making every sacrifice possible to save the money, or saying lets get an affordable ring now and upgrade later, or even saying lets just get engaged without a ring and sort that bit out when things are easier. If a man truly wants to do something then he does it. It's like girls wondering why a guy hasn't rung after a date - did he lose my number? Did his mother get sick? Is he just too shy? Was my phone always engaged? Nope, he didn't call because he's not that interested. Full stop.

I think he's just spinning you a line. He likes to know you are there, your financial contributions have allowed him to have a house, he likes to talk of this 'future' without taking positive steps towards it, and yet he won't make any real emotional commitment to you. He thinks buying bricks and mortar is a commitment - well, it's not the sort of emotional commitment that you so obviously need and are looking for.

I totally understand how horrendous the idea of leaving is (BTDT) especially now you're tied into a mortgage, but it's not a reason to stay either.

If you can, I would see whether you could find some kind of counselling - Relate might be a good one for you (it's not just for married people) - where you could look at your situation with a neutral party (do this on your own, not with him).

You only get the one life and you deserve to have one as happy as it possibly can be. When you are in the midst of a relationship - especially one where you have invested years of your life - it seems as if that person is the only one for you, but there are many other people out there and most people who move on find themselves wondering 6 months down the line what took them so long.

I'm really, really sorry to say this, but I'm afraid I am not seeing a fairytale ending for your relationship, and I think you need to start to look at your options. You deserve so much better.

 

[LaraOnline]

I see it as a question of clashing values...

he sees living together without marriage as a fairer (also: non-gender based, less obligatory) lifestyle, that provides both of you with pretty much the experience of marriage.

You and I would perhaps say that his emotional reading of marriage is very shallow; he says that you practice the same lifestyle as a married person (by living together and buying a house, talking about kids etc) = you are married.

All of us here know that playing the part is not at all the same as being the part.
he feels he is doing all that was ever expected of him - that is, being a good partner in the day to day...
but, as I see it, if you are not convinced of your situation, and cannot be induced to relax in your situation, it really comes down to a type of emotional abuse or advantage to me.

Yes, I know that it's not fashionable to see open-ended (non-contractual intimate) relationships as potentially abusive in and of themselves, but your personal worry about your situation, particularly acute in the area of conception before marriage, does mean that the expression of your full self is not realised in the relationship.

Having been forced down that road myself before, I say it's not psychologically healthy, at all.

I had, on occasion, even considered hypnotherapy as a means of getting myself 'happy' over the situation of no marriage!

Being socially expected to live in a 'marriage-like' relationship without the marriage really felt, say (as an analogy) a little like how I imagine it feels to have to pretend to be straight when you're just not...

In the end, I had to be myself...

However, because our world is based on masculine values - and because even feminism has been co-opted into a kind of masculine take on the world - it is difficult for women to get support for this kind of emotional need; it also difficult for the 'modern' man to see emotionally giving more (which has only invisible benefits) as reasonable.

Old fashioned values, which rely on a more gendered viewpoint, and notions of 'honourable behaviour', of sacrifice and reward, (as opposed to the assumption that individuals make the best ongoing choices for their own advantage) seem to be more open and supportive of the marriage concept.

Unfortunately not only have you devoted eight years of your life to this guy, which involves to some extent a marriage-like emotional arrangement for yourself, but you have bought a house with this guy. This, again, is an act which you see as part of your 'bargain' for getting married. ('If I behave in a certain way, he is likely to see how reasonable I am to want to get married')

You have a different set of values to your man.

He, however, is perhaps likely to see both these acts of relationship (on your behalf) as signs that either you can be co-opted, or that the situation (just as it is) is working for you overall, and that probably marriage must in fact have NOT meant so very much to you for most of the time you have been together, and when you made these decisions to be together / buy the house, (regardless of what you say now).

Do you think you should consider your own values in the context of the arrangements you have previously made, and consider whether it would be better for you to give up your dream of marriage for the near future?

It seems you have opened your Christmas presents, and that perhaps you should enjoy the 'good life' you have, and try to get comfy in your space. Perhaps that also means considering your family planning AS IF marriage didn't exist as an option that was open to you.

 

[lucyandroger]

Hi Chocolate,

I haven''t been following your story so this could be completely off base but this is how I see it.

You guys just bought a house together 3 months ago! That''s a huge committment that he made to your relationship and to you financially. He''s probably still trying to get used to the new bills and just even himself out.

Maybe he wants to propose but wants everything to be perfect. To him it''s worth waiting a few extra months to really save up for a nice ring. If it''s not to you, maybe you should just come right out and say that.

So I think everytime you bring up the ring, you are really touching a sore point for him. He''s clearly feeling overwhelmed financially with the mortgage and he wants to make you happy but can''t afford to right now. So he gets defensive...

I can also see him thinking - We just got this gorgeous new house...can''t she be happy for more than a few months before wanting the next large purchase. I think a lot of men think that women just want the engagement for the ring because that''s the physical thing we can point to. Maybe just explain to him that it''s not about spending the money or getting the ring....

Anyway, if nothing else, I hope this might give you something to think about.

 

[LaraOnline]

Oops! There I go again! I didn't know you've only been in your lovely new house for only a few months.
Perhaps you've got nothing to worry about!
I would give it another year? Particularly if he knew you were hoping for a proposal shortly after moving into the house...

anyway, just wanted to send supportive vibes! *hug*

lucy's right too, a LOT of guys (including my super-pro-marriage DH) don't get the ring thing at all, tbh

 

[Shoopy]

I know this is a diamond forum and perhaps its silly to even say this

but maybe what is truly holding him back is the cost of the ring? I don''t think he would make a commitment to you like getting into a house if he wasn''t sure that he really wanted to be with you. So maybe, just maybe, your expectations of what the ring should be like is making him feel inadequate because he can''t provide that to you. It''s just a thought.

Would you be able to sit down with him and just remind him that an engagement isn''t about the ring, it''s about starting the future together? Maybe even ask him what he thinks a realistic budget for him would be and try to find a ring that you love and that he can afford?

I may be totally off base here but I know that when Mr. Fiery and I first started talking about rings he got really depressed because I was looking at rings that realistically he could not afford at the time. It took several months for me to realize it wasn''t that he didn''t want to propose he was just overwhelmed. And as much as I love shiny things, the engagement isn''t about the ring. So I asked him to honestly tell me what he feels is a comfortable amount for him. When he did, I found an e-ring that I loved that even came under his budget.

Since you say money is a big thing with him, maybe that''s what''s holding him back.

 

[happydreams]

chocolate, moving in and paying a mortgage together is a big thing. i would wait a few more months - wait till the dust settles AND take the advice written above about the budget. it''s kind of a big deal, getting used to the mortgage payments, etc. so i wouldn''t be discouraged just yet.

 

[ringless]

Oh honey, so sorry to hear you''re upset. I know the feeling. We both know our Bf''s want to get married but when!? It''s so hard waiting... My bf is also saving and I have no idea how much longer it will be either, so I''m right there with you. Hang in there!

 

[bee*]

I''m sorry that things haven''t changed. I think that Pandora''s post is excellent-based on his past behaviour I really don''t think that it''s a front that he''s putting up. He honestly just doesn''t seem that interested in marriage. I think that the trial separation would be good if that''s what you would like to do. Don''t let a mortgage get in the way of something that you would really like.

 

[NewEnglandLady]

Date: 3/31/2009 6:28:41 AM
Author: chocolatefudge
Thanks Gwen. The trial speration idea is something I have seriously considered, not because I want to leave him but because I just really feel that this would make him realise how important it is to me and would sort things.

Please don't do this. It's manipulative and will undoubtedly blow up in your face. You are not ready to leave him, he is not ready for marriage. You cannot manipulate him into marrying you, however he seems to be doing a good job of manipulating you into staying in a relationship that is meeting his needs, but not yours.

You have been a relationship for 8 years, wanting for an engagement for 5. You've trapped yourself into this relationship by buying a house with him and have stated multiple times that you are not ready to leave. He gives you the absolute minimum to stay in this relationship by throwing you tiny nuggets of "someday". Someday? That's enough?? COME ON! When are you going to get fed up? Are you still going to be his girlfriend paying half the mortgate in a year? In two years? Or are you going to let yourself become so overcooked that all you feel for him is bitterness?

He is so far from being ready for marriage he can't even TALK about it. I can guarantee that he only told you it would be a couple of months so that you wouldn't ask for a couple of months. He knew that when he came up empty-handed, you would stay anyway.

I want for you to be happy. You are not happy. You are with somebody who is not considering your needs, but you have no control over that--the only person in this situation you have control over is yourself and yet every day you choose to go down the same path. Nothing is going to change unless you change it.

ETA: I don't think you need a break. You need a Break UP. A break provides hope that you'll be getting back together--he would EXPECT that based on the past.

 

[NakedFinger]

Date: 3/31/2009 9:47:20 AM
Author: NewEnglandLady

Date: 3/31/2009 6:28:41 AM
Author: chocolatefudge
Thanks Gwen. The trial speration idea is something I have seriously considered, not because I want to leave him but because I just really feel that this would make him realise how important it is to me and would sort things.

Please don't do this. It's manipulative and will undoubtedly blow up in your face. You are not ready to leave him, he is not ready for marriage. You cannot manipulate him into marrying you, however he seems to be doing a good job of manipulating you into staying in a relationship that is meeting his needs, but not yours.

Hey CFB- I am so sorry to hear this

I am not going to say should end your relationship or whether you should hold out. The only thing I am going to do is agree with the blue highlighted comment. My best friend was with her BF for 5 years...waiting and waiting and waiting for him to propose. Finally, she left telling him she gave up (thinking it would make him realize how much he loved her and would marry her). We'll he begged her to come back, telling her he was ready to marry her. So she went back to him, moved into his house and..........its be THREE YEARS. She is still waiting for him to propose, they still fight about getting engaged, and he has never brought up marriage since.

The only reason I bring this up, is because I would be careful with doing the "break" thing, especially because your bf has said "i wasnt really ready then, but I am now" and "I was justing going along with things". So I would hate to see you break up with him, and have him tell you these things again to get you back, and have you be disappointed again.

Also, I think this is manipulative, and isnt a good thing (its basically like an ultimatum....im gone, unless you propose). To me, its just a way of pressuring him into doing it without him being ready. And I wouldnt want that, because then you know he isnt proposing because he wants to, but because he feels like he had to. That would bug me. Again...I have a friend who was with her BF for 10 years, pressured him into proposing.....and they got divorced a year later. Again, just something to think about before you consider the "break" option. I think if you are making a decision, it should be a permanent one.

 

[ringless]

I have to disagree with some on here, because i'm in a similar situation, know we will get married ONE day, it may not be on my timeline or my ideal time in life, but I know it will happen when the time is right. There is no reason to rush anything, ever. Everyone is different, every relationship is different. Being together for a lengthly amount of time shouldn't matter as well, even though we are all a little nutty when we hit certain milestones/anniversaries, etc. we start to get antsy.
Chocolatefudge, if you love him, know you will get married someday and are blissfully happy as you say (except for the marriage part) why not be happy now, and enjoy this time. I bet he has something planned, but you are the only one that can determine if you're willing to wait, etc. I would sit down and talk to him and get a timeline of betwen 1-2 years engaged, 3-4 married... what he thinks and what he is able to afford, etc. I am in a similar situation, but I'm one of those willing to wait b/c I know it will be right when were both completely ready.

Best of luck.

 

[girlie-girl]

Sorry to hear you're struggling and are frustrated. I hope you feel better about things soon.

I thought I'd throw out another idea, but I don't know if your guy would like it or not. What if you pitched in on the cost of the engagement ring? If you're already living together and paying all household expenses together and sharing things that way, why not share that too? Personally I don't see anything wrong with pitching in when all your other finances are already mixed. I guess I don't get why he has to pay for the whole thing himself, unless that is what he has stated he wants to do. You don't have to tell anyone else you're pitching in as it's none of their business really, it could be handled in the same confidence as the rest of the bills.

Maybe that would lessen his worry about not being able to afford what you want/deserve etc. Also, I can see why a guy wouldn't want to propose without a ring, as often as most of us girls say we don't really care; is because of how society might view him. You know people could think he's too cheap or something negative and guys just don't want to chance that... I can't blame them.

Either way, I just wanted to throw out another option. Hopefully you're able to resolve things in such a way as to make everyone happy and content.

 

[ringless]

Date: 3/31/2009 10:00:00 AM
Author: girlie-girl
Sorry to hear you''re struggling and are frustrated. I hope you feel better about things soon.

I thought I''d throw out another idea, but I don''t know if your guy would like it or not. What if you pitched in on the cost of the engagement ring? If you''re already living together and paying all household expenses together and sharing things that way, why not share that too? Personally I don''t see anything wrong with pitching in when all your other finances are already mixed. I guess I don''t get why he has to pay for the whole thing himself, unless that is what he has stated he wants to do. You don''t have to tell anyone else you''re pitching in as it''s none of their business really, it could be handled in the same confidence as the rest of the bills.

Maybe that would lessen his worry about not being able to afford what you want/deserve etc. Also, I can see why a guy wouldn''t want to propose without a ring, as often as most of us girls say we don''t really care; is because of how society might view him. You know people could think he''s too cheap or something negative and guys just don''t want to chance that... I can''t blame them.

Either way, I just wanted to throw out another option. Hopefully you''re able to resolve things in such a way as to make everyone happy and content.

I agree with this. If you''re able to help him save for it, why not? It''s a win, win.

 

[NakedFinger]

Date: 3/31/2009 10:04:32 AM
Author: ringless

Date: 3/31/2009 10:00:00 AM
Author: girlie-girl
Sorry to hear you''re struggling and are frustrated. I hope you feel better about things soon.

I thought I''d throw out another idea, but I don''t know if your guy would like it or not. What if you pitched in on the cost of the engagement ring? If you''re already living together and paying all household expenses together and sharing things that way, why not share that too? Personally I don''t see anything wrong with pitching in when all your other finances are already mixed. I guess I don''t get why he has to pay for the whole thing himself, unless that is what he has stated he wants to do. You don''t have to tell anyone else you''re pitching in as it''s none of their business really, it could be handled in the same confidence as the rest of the bills.

Maybe that would lessen his worry about not being able to afford what you want/deserve etc. Also, I can see why a guy wouldn''t want to propose without a ring, as often as most of us girls say we don''t really care; is because of how society might view him. You know people could think he''s too cheap or something negative and guys just don''t want to chance that... I can''t blame them.

Either way, I just wanted to throw out another option. Hopefully you''re able to resolve things in such a way as to make everyone happy and content.

I agree with this. If you''re able to help him save for it, why not? It''s a win, win.

Thritto on that. If it isnt that he isnt ready, and doesnt want to, etc. And its really just about him saving money for the ring, that I would def go with this option. It will definitely speed up the process, and make him feel a little less stressed out about finances. If he doesnt agree with letting you pay for some, then just explain the ring part isnt important, and you would rather he propose with something he can afford (RIGHT AT THIS MOMENT) lol

 

[LaraOnline]

Date: 3/31/2009 9:57:04 AM
Author: NakedFinger

Date: 3/31/2009 9:47:20 AM

Author: NewEnglandLady

Date: 3/31/2009 6:28:41 AM

Author: chocolatefudge

Thanks Gwen. The trial speration idea is something I have seriously considered, not because I want to leave him but because I just really feel that this would make him realise how important it is to me and would sort things.

Please don''t do this. It''s manipulative and will undoubtedly blow up in your face. You are not ready to leave him, he is not ready for marriage. You cannot manipulate him into marrying you, however he seems to be doing a good job of manipulating you into staying in a relationship that is meeting his needs, but not yours.

Hey CFB- I am so sorry to hear this

I am not going to say should end your relationship or whether you should hold out. The only thing I am going to do is agree with the blue highlighted comment. My best friend was with her BF for 5 years...waiting and waiting and waiting for him to propose. Finally, she left telling him she gave up (thinking it would make him realize how much he loved her and would marry her). We''ll he begged her to come back, telling her he was ready to marry her. So she went back to him, moved into his house and..........its be THREE YEARS. She is still waiting for him to propose, they still fight about getting engaged, and he has never brought up marriage since.

The thing is... who is being manipulative here in Naked finger''s scenario? The girl... or the guy? Seems like the guy has won this power struggle - and he didn''t play fair to do so!
There are plenty of people that are only too happy to co-opt you to suit their own ends / needs... you have to be clear, and careful, and strong when it comes to love! And as responsible as possible for the choices you make! If only they spoke about all THAT stuff in the fairy tales!!!

Girls are socially programmed to set themselves up to be (romantically) rescued, in many ways it''s expected of them... a scenario ripe for exploitation if the rescuer (white knight or shite knight?) can''t be bothered to rescue!

 

[NakedFinger]

Date: 3/31/2009 10:10:03 AM
Author: LaraOnline

The thing is... who is being manipulative here in Naked finger''s scenario? The girl... or the guy? Seems like the guy has won this power struggle - and he didn''t play fair to do so!
There are plenty of people that are only too happy to co-opt you to suit their own ends / needs... you have to be clear, and careful, and strong when it comes to love! And as responsible as possible for the choices you make! If only they spoke about all THAT stuff in the fairy tales!!!

Girls are socially programmed to set themselves up to be (romantically) rescued, in many ways it''s expected of them... a scenario ripe for exploitation if the rescuer (white knight or shite knight?) can''t be bothered to rescue!

Ahmen to that! Yes, he was the manipulative one. He was telling her the things she wanted to hear to get her back, with no action or promise on his end. I think it may be manipulative (or maybe just wishful thinking) on a girls end to do this, but also can be manipulated on the guys end too. I dont know, the whole situation sucks

 

[LaraOnline]

Date: 3/31/2009 10:15:11 AM
Author: NakedFinger
the whole situation sucks

I wholeheartedly agree!

I''m already telling my little girl (who dreams of getting married at the age of four!!!) that ''lots of people'' don''t know how to get married...so she has to be sensible when she''s a lady, because some boys might pretend they like getting married, but really they can''t understand what marriage is for

she says they must be ''silly boys''!!

 

[neatfreak]

Chocolate-I am so so sorry honey. I was really hoping that he'd change his ways.

But...and I am sorry to say this...but having followed your story for so long I have to agree with NEL. It just seems like excuse after excuse.

If he claims it's $...then you say let's do it anyway...he always has a different reason to say no.

If he really means it- and it's a monetary issue- call his bluff. Ask him to go down to the courthouse with you tomorrow and get married. See what he says. Unfortunately I think he will give you another excuse.

 

[decodelighted]

Date: 3/31/2009 4:27:43 AM
Author:chocolatefudge
He made some comment about struggling to afford anything now we had the house, nevermind a ring. And then he made some comment about never affording a wedding. This is something I have worried about myself as each of us put half of monthly wage into the mortgage and bills and then we each have a car we are paying for plus insurance.

He said, ''I could have afforded it before but now now.''

So I was like, ''Well why didn''t you ask me then???''

AIGH!!! Thread like this make me so frustrated! Why can''t people see around corners! How could you two not have known that buying a house together would make all the other things SO much more difficult??? I really wish you''d NOT bought a house together before the final commitment was settled. But that''s all water under the bridge. Perhaps this thread will help others see what is very likely to happen in these cases.

My one friend who bought a house with a guy she''d been with for seven years, married a different guy six months after she broke up with guy #1 -- after ANOTHER broken promise, missed deadline etc. They were still separating property & $$$ YEARS later. GAH!

Wake up!!! Stop living in fairy land!!! He is not "surprising you" -- he''s BROKE. Also, a LIAR who has now admitted to telling you what you want to hear ABOUT SOMETHING AS IMPORTANT AS MARRIAGE just to shut you up. The sooner you get a CLEAR grasp on your REALITY ... the quicker you''ll know your next steps.

 

[Pandora II]

Date: 3/31/2009 10:00:00 AM
Author: girlie-girl
Sorry to hear you''re struggling and are frustrated. I hope you feel better about things soon.

I thought I''d throw out another idea, but I don''t know if your guy would like it or not. What if you pitched in on the cost of the engagement ring? If you''re already living together and paying all household expenses together and sharing things that way, why not share that too? Personally I don''t see anything wrong with pitching in when all your other finances are already mixed. I guess I don''t get why he has to pay for the whole thing himself, unless that is what he has stated he wants to do. You don''t have to tell anyone else you''re pitching in as it''s none of their business really, it could be handled in the same confidence as the rest of the bills.

Maybe that would lessen his worry about not being able to afford what you want/deserve etc. Also, I can see why a guy wouldn''t want to propose without a ring, as often as most of us girls say we don''t really care; is because of how society might view him. You know people could think he''s too cheap or something negative and guys just don''t want to chance that... I can''t blame them.

Either way, I just wanted to throw out another option. Hopefully you''re able to resolve things in such a way as to make everyone happy and content.

Just wanted to say here - Chocolate Fudge is in the UK. I don''t know what her particular wants are in a ring, but on the whole e-rings are a whole different kettle of fish over here. Her SO may well want to do the whole thing himself, but unless CF has expectations very far from the norm (and it doesn''t seem that way), it''s not like she''s expecting him to save three months salary or anything.

Over here, anything over 0.5ct is regarded as big and anything over a carat is regarded as HUGE. Amongst my own friends most of whom are professionals in London earning 6 figures GBP and in their 30''s, I only know one girl who has over a carat and she''s from the USA, most have around the 0.75ct mark.

Society and other men will not judge an e-ring here in the way that perhaps they might in other countries. Many men don''t even get the fact that a ring is expected. When my sister got engaged, her FI gave her a budget of $1k (and he earns a very good salary) and this was not seen as ''cheap''. When my brother (who is a lawyer) proposed to his FI with a 1ct rb that I helped him find, there were plenty of catty comments from members of my family and from his friends about how he''d obviously spent a fortune/had money to burn etc

I honestly don''t believe from all her past posts that CF''s situation has that much to do with her SO affording a ring, IMHO it''s all to do with his attitude and feelings towards marriage/engagement. The question is whether it''s because he''s not ready for that step now or because he''s not ready to propose to CF.

She''s been there for 8 years and waiting for the proposal now for five years. The questions are:

- could she ever be truly happy not being married?
- is he ever going to actually propose to her or is he just hoping that she will eventually give up?
- if marriage is a non-negotiable for her, just how many more years does she give him the benefit of the doubt?
- what damage is this situation doing to a) CF''s self esteem and b) their relationship?

CF, feel free to correct if I''ve totally got things wrong here - I just think that there are cultural differences between the UK and the USA when it comes to engagements...

 

[Winks_Elf]

I''m sorry to hear this because I know how frustrating it can be.

The reality: you are legally tied to him through the mortgage, which I am certain is in both of your names. This is not my main point of the post, and please don''t take offense, but how the heck did you two get a mortgage which requires 50% of your combined income to pay it??? Sounds like you used a preditory lendor. Most mortgage companies will not allow you to get a mortgage that costs more than 30% of your combined incomes. Anyway, this is why I advise ladies NOT to purchase a home together until the marriage certificate is signed and witnessed. It can get very ugly, very quickly.

Take a deep breath, and try to let it go for now. I agree that the undertaking of a mortgage and moving into a home (no matter how much nicer than where you were) is a major stress in more ways than just financial. Give it some time. However, if you see that Christmas 2009 rolls around, you''ll need to consider whether or not you want to spend the next five years of your life waiting around for that proposal.

 

[absolut_blonde]

I'm sorry, CF.

To be painfully honest, it really sounds like marriage is not a priority to him. Further, because HE doesn't see it as important, he seems to think that it just ISN'T important. There seems to be a total inability (or unwillingness) for him to see things from your perspective on this one.

Also, he doesn't seem to be taking your feelings/desires into consideration by saying things like 'getting married has never really bothered me'

. He's being rather insensitive about the whole issue.

I don't have any advice to offer but I would like to ditto Pandora's question of how many more years you are willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. 8 years is a very long time. If marriage was a priority for him, even if he were saving, say, $30-40 a month... he could've had a decent chunk of change stashed away at this point. You know the saying actions speak louder than words? Well, he's promising one thing and his actions say something else.

I hope it all works out for you.

 

[Bia]

Date: 3/31/2009 9:47:20 AM
Author: NewEnglandLady

Please don''t do this. It''s manipulative and will undoubtedly blow up in your face. You are not ready to leave him, he is not ready for marriage. You cannot manipulate him into marrying you, however he seems to be doing a good job of manipulating you into staying in a relationship that is meeting his needs, but not yours.

You have been a relationship for 8 years, wanting for an engagement for 5. You''ve trapped yourself into this relationship by buying a house with him and have stated multiple times that you are not ready to leave. He gives you the absolute minimum to stay in this relationship by throwing you tiny nuggets of ''someday''. Someday? That''s enough?? COME ON! When are you going to get fed up? Are you still going to be his girlfriend paying half the mortgate in a year? In two years? Or are you going to let yourself become so overcooked that all you feel for him is bitterness?

He is so far from being ready for marriage he can''t even TALK about it. I can guarantee that he only told you it would be a couple of months so that you wouldn''t ask for a couple of months. He knew that when he came up empty-handed, you would stay anyway.

I want for you to be happy. You are not happy. You are with somebody who is not considering your needs, but you have no control over that--the only person in this situation you have control over is yourself and yet every day you choose to go down the same path. Nothing is going to change unless you change it.

ETA: I don''t think you need a break. You need a Break UP. A break provides hope that you''ll be getting back together--he would EXPECT that based on the past.

I agree with this CF. You are waiting for an engagement that never comes and it is heartbreaking to see how much he hurts you, time after time. Just because you bought a house with him does not mean you can''t take control of your life. I strongly urge you to consider the probability that things won''t change. If it was only about money, particularly after all these years together (5 years spent discussing a future together), he would have found a way by now. A ring, is not the ''be all, end all.'' You already have a house together, so if he wanted to marry you, he would say something along the lines of, "I don''t have money for a ring, but how about we get just get married without one?" There are quite a few variations of that last statement, but the end result would mean you would be engaged to be married, or just married! With or without a ring.

I have already given you this advice. A lot of us have. We ultimately want you to be happy. You deserve to be. He doesn''t have the right to make you wait indefinitely. He only does if you continue to let him. Stop letting him and take control of your future, and your happiness honey. You can!

 

[The7OfUs]

I just dropped by to introduce myself... MY FI calls me Sunshine and despite fighting it now I tell people that's my name. lol. Ok... Our story is not a traditional one. We've both been married before; i'm 28 and he is 37. I have 2 children and he has 5--hence The7OfUs.

THe tricky part...

When I met Shel I was engaged to someone else. I thought he was a nice person; however, i was so blindly in love with another man I couldn't see him. We became friends and I would talk to him on and off. One day I went to email him and he didn't reply. In the waiting I found out that he had almost died. He stayed in the hospital for four months. Once he got out and got his swagger back he had made up his mind about two things: life is fragile, unpredictable and i was the woman he wanted to marry.

My ex-fiance and I had parted ways for hurtful reasons. I did not want any part of men--PERIOD. Over the period of 24 hours I was attacked, my grandmother (we are very close) had a double bypass and a heart attack, and my uncle (he was more like my father) was taken off of life support. Shel, who had just been my friend before, became my solace, my hope, and my rock. He asked me to marry him and I said yes.

I am probably am one of the few brides whose FI constantly worries them about a wedding. LOL. I chose April 17, 2010 as a wedding date; it also is my 30th birthday. I have a good idea about the dress I am going to wear. I already have the pattern for the recption dress.

I chose violet, sage green, and chocolate brown for the colors. Mor than likely it'll be some white thrown in there for balance and good measure. My theme will be violets because Sonnet by Alice Dunbar-Nelson describes how we feel about each other. Neither one of us expected to try this again and here we are... where we should have been from the beginning.

Here's the poem...
I had no thought of violets of late,
The wild, shy kind that spring beneath your feet
In wistful April days, when lovers mate
And wander through the fields in raptures sweet.
The thought of violets meant florists' shops,
And bows and pins, and perfumed papers fine;
And garish lights, and mincing little fops
And cabarets and songs, and deadening wine.
So far from sweet real things my thoughts had strayed,
I had forgot wide fields, and clear brown streams;
The perfect loveliness that God has made,--
Wild violets shy and Heaven-mounting dreams.
And now--unwittingly, you've made me dream
Of violets, and my soul's forgotten gleam