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OECs in Rappaport - affects market how?

Circe

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In one of the many, many, many threads where we're indulging a new-found fascination with OECs, spurred in part by their beauty, but in part - let's be practical! - by the fact that they're among the only affordable options in a world of price-hikes, Gypsy quoted a vintage dealer she'd been corresponding with as saying:

"One other thing I'd like to touch on with you, is pricing for OEs in general. You may not be aware, but a few months ago, Rapaport started listing OEs at the same wholesale price as modern brilliants. Never before has this happened. This is down to massively increased interest in the shape, and the very obvious lack of availability. OEs, especially eyeclean and undamaged, at a carat and above, are fast becoming as rare as hens teeth. My advice would be to pick up whichever stone you are interested in sooner rather than later. I have noticed that even ebay sellers across in the USA have been putting up their listed prices by between 10 and 20% recently. The price for antique stones will, in my opinion, continue to grow."

I dunno if I've just been living in a cave, but ... WOAH. That is huge. To have Martin Rappaport, the man who basically standardized diamond grading, step up to observe and incorporate the fact that the general public is taking refuge from the price hikes in the secondhand market ... we're now officially in a whole new ballgame. I'm aware that dealers tend to have a standardized set of discounts off Rap depending on, oh, anything from cut to fluor to stones cut "shy," which your average consumer doesn't know about: I wonder where (if) the discount for OECs is set.

Would any of our professionals care to weigh in on this issue?
 

coati

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The dealers I know who sit on huge inventories of OECs have priced them based on Rap's rounds for some time.

There aren't that many dealers with these types of old cut inventories. Many are selling all original pieces, or they may have a few odd old cuts in their inventories but not massive amounts of loose stones. That is where some bargains could be found in the past-typical secondary market. Time's are a-changin'-vintage jewelry is huge right now and being featured and marketed accordingly. Martha Stewart Weddings has showcased old cuts, so you know the scale has tipped. Ebay has been cleaned out-in large part from the ps experience, but, the old cut thing is growing outside of this community-yep. There are still jewelers out there that will devalue an old cut, but they'll catch on soon enough.
 

denverappraiser

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I’m a big fan of Martin but he most definitely did NOT standardize diamond grading. That was Robert Shipley (founder of GIA) along with an enormous amount of help from others who were his contemporaries and who have followed. Rapaport HAS engaged is a certain amount of standardizing of diamond prices but it’s had decidedly mixed results and at nearly every convention there’s an argument or 3 about whether polished diamonds are commodities (and whether or not Martin is a force for good or evil because of this). Dealers set their own prices and are welcome to use or ignore whatever guides they like. In the end it’s the market that prevails. Damn, I sound like a free market economist or something. :-o Many use Rap’s guidelines with some modifications and most of these will price OEC’s based on the ‘pear’ list, not the ‘round’ list. Not all do it the same and Rapaport makes no suggestions either way, much less a command from on high that from now on it’ll be done differently.

It's correct, by the way, that large OEC's are hard to find and it's getting harder. I"m starting to see 'new' production. This is a clue that the cutter thought they could make MORE by producing an OEC rather than a modern cut. Given that they're perfectly capable of doing it either way and that they're pretty savvy people when it comes to money. This seems like a good sign for rising OEC prices as compared to Rounds.
 

Circe

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denverappraiser|1317251590|3028272 said:
I’m a big fan of Martin but he most definitely did NOT standardize diamond grading. That was Robert Shipley (founder of GIA) along with an enormous amount of help from others who were his contemporaries and who have followed. Rapaport HAS engaged is a certain amount of standardizing of diamond prices but it’s had decidedly mixed results and at nearly every convention there’s an argument or 3 about whether polished diamonds are commodities (and whether or not Martin is a force for good or evil because of this). Dealers set their own prices and are welcome to use or ignore whatever guides they like. In the end it’s the market that prevails. Damn, I sound like a free market economist or something. :-o Many use Rap’s guidelines with some modifications and most of these will price OEC’s based on the ‘pear’ list, not the ‘round’ list. Not all do it the same and Rapaport makes no suggestions either way, much less a command from on high that from now on it’ll be done differently.

It's correct, by the way, that large OEC's are hard to find and it's getting harder. I"m starting to see 'new' production. This is a clue that the cutter thought they could make MORE by producing an OEC rather than a modern cut. Given that they're perfectly capable of doing it either way and that they're pretty savvy people when it comes to money. This seems like a good sign for rising OEC prices as compared to Rounds.

You are completely and entirely correct in the underlined - I meant to say pricing! Shows what happens when I post on an empty stomach. As for the bolded ... hm, that's fascinating! I've seen it with many of the new branded cushion lines, but outside of GOG and their AVRs, I hadn't realized cutters were producing modern stones in the style of the OEC. Veeeeeeeeeery eenteresting - I wonder how much of it is aesthetic, and how much is financial.
 

ericad

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With Regards to Rap, Euros price out per the round list, while the pear list is reserved for OMCs and Cushions. We haven't seen any newly cut OECs yet (excluding AVRs), just old stones newly polished, though obviously newly cut antique style cushions are becoming more common. Nice Old cuts in K or higher color are becoming scarcer and scarcer, while nice old cushions seem to have vanished into a vortex, lol. We can't get our hands on them at all - I just pray they aren't being hoarded for recutting...gulp.
 

yennyfire

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Oh, that would be a travesty Erica! I hope that's not the case and that people are just hoarding and enjoying their old cushion cuts.
 

LGK

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Wow. That's amazing that there's new OECs being produced (aside from AVRs)- I guess there's two I can recall seeing, Kenny's lovely, wee green diamond and that unbelievable one carat blue that sold at DBL. Both of those I'd bet money were new, but were very OEC-like.

I wonder how much I'll regret selling the 2 ct tranny and the 1 ct OEC I've passed along over the last few years :bigsmile: I've definitely noticed ebay is really, really picked over these days. It used to be the smaller stuff got picked over pretty good but larger stones there just wasn't much competition for. Now, they all seem to be snapped up quick.
 

coati

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ericad|1317252928|3028287 said:
With Regards to Rap, Euros price out per the round list, while the pear list is reserved for OMCs and Cushions. We haven't seen any newly cut OECs yet (excluding AVRs), just old stones newly polished, though obviously newly cut antique style cushions are becoming more common. Nice Old cuts in K or higher color are becoming scarcer and scarcer, while nice old cushions seem to have vanished into a vortex, lol. We can't get our hands on them at all - I just pray they aren't being hoarded for recutting...gulp.

Yep-that's what I've experienced based on dealers with larger old cut inventories-as I posted above. But, as Neil wrote, dealers will price however they like with or without regards to rap, but I haven't dealt with dealers pricing OECs from the pears list, no.

As far as new production, I've seen many a tweaked poorly cut older stone-recycled as it were-clearly, but not sold as such. As interest grows I imagine newly cut OECs will become like newly cut antique cushions with abounding branded cuts.
 

Karl_K

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If there are going to be newly cut OECs on the market they have to priced at round rap or they will not be cut.
Because OECs used to be priced using pear rap, no one was cutting them.
Rough is too expensive for anything else to happen, they have to trade at round rap if they are going to be cut.
 

kelpie

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This thread made me remember something I've seen a lot of in recent years:

In my trolling the internet for vintage jewelry I have noticed telltale signs of a piece that looks old but isn't. Two examples of sellers offering these many of these wares are Fay Cullen and Mel's Antique Jewelry (though they also stock real antiques). I can't describe the certainties in detail, if you've read the book "Blink" you know what I mean. They just look too "fresh" or while the pieces may be different, their styles or method of construction are so similar you know they were all produced by the same jeweler...highly unlikely unless someone's found a cache of new old stock. I have heard these pieces are being churned out like gangbusters in South America. Anyway, these settings often feature old cuts and I know the settings are reproductions but would anyone like to weigh in on whether the diamonds are?

This is the sort of thing I'm talking about:

http://www.faycullen.com/products/H805R6DE/

http://www.ebay.com/itm/DECO-1-36ctw-EURO-DIAMOND-EMERALD-ONYX-CUSHION-RING-/160648078571?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item25675f24eb
 

Circe

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kelpie|1317302486|3028656 said:
This thread made me remember something I've seen a lot of in recent years:

In my trolling the internet for vintage jewelry I have noticed telltale signs of a piece that looks old but isn't. Two examples of sellers offering these many of these wares are Fay Cullen and Mel's Antique Jewelry (though they also stock real antiques). I can't describe the certainties in detail, if you've read the book "Blink" you know what I mean. They just look too "fresh" or while the pieces may be different, their styles or method of construction are so similar you know they were all produced by the same jeweler...highly unlikely unless someone's found a cache of new old stock. I have heard these pieces are being churned out like gangbusters in South America. Anyway, these settings often feature old cuts and I know the settings are reproductions but would anyone like to weigh in on whether the diamonds are?

This is the sort of thing I'm talking about:

http://www.faycullen.com/products/H805R6DE/

http://www.ebay.com/itm/DECO-1-36ctw-EURO-DIAMOND-EMERALD-ONYX-CUSHION-RING-/160648078571?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item25675f24eb

Ha! Interesting. I'd noticed the same thing with both vendors, but I'd assumed that they were using actual old stones. Would love to know who Mel's bench is - some of those pieces are of the first water, judging by the pics.

Interesting what it implies about the cycle, though - if, as ErikaD points out, vendors are hoarding actual old cuts (possibly with an eye towards recutting, possibly waiting for market to hit its peak) and forcing cutters to cut new "old" cuts to fulfill demand ... hm. It's a flash in the pan in the larger market, of course, but I do wonder if it'll turn into a groundswell of popularity, or if the dealers hoarding the old stones will be left holding the bag if prices normalize in the near future.
 

CrisM

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I didn't realize GOG's August Vintage Rounds were actually new round cut in an older style. Informative and interesting thread. For clarification, why would a cutter re-cut an older stone?
 

oldminer

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Sometimes a consumer can purchase a second hand diamond, at a substantial discount to the regular market of freshly cut stones. Cutters of new material must pay the going price for new rough, but dealers in used diamonds often buy a stone way below market and can pass some savings along if they choose to. No one makes them pass along the bargain, but sometimes it does happen. really, this applies not only to authentic old cut diamonds, but to relatively modern cut diamonds, as many are second hand purchases and recycled.

The economics behind the diamond market are elusive and constantly in flux, just like currency and precious metals, yet even more mysterious and less transparent. Fashion also plays into what is hot at any given moment.
 

Circe

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CrisM|1317305147|3028677 said:
I didn't realize GOG's August Vintage Rounds were actually new round cut in an older style. Informative and interesting thread. For clarification, why would a cutter re-cut an older stone?

As shapes meander in and out of popularity, sometimes dealers can get higher prices if they fiddle with the goods - so an OEC might become an oddly cut modern round brilliant, for example (and many of them did, during the 70s, when OECs were seen as being hugely old-fashioned and unattractive). The irony is that as the shapes come back into fashion, now they might conceivably be going back under the wheel again for restoration to the original shape! Sometimes you don't know whether to laugh or cry ....
 

denverappraiser

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Non-ideal/excellent rounds are increasingly difficult for dealers to move without giving a steep discount, especially when they’re way off the mark. This has not always been the case. Cutters are, of course, well aware of this. Rough that’s well suited to ‘bad’ cuts is a problem. They can cut a smaller ideal, which means lower price, a bigger but lesser cut, which means a discount because of the cutting, or cut a fancy that it may not be best suited for. As OEC’s become more popular, there’s a 4rd option available. The ONLY thing a cutter can do is subtract and at the end they are going to be charging per carat for their results. Correctly leading a particular piece of rough (or recut) to the right result is a huge piece of the job and a huge piece of the difference between the ones who are making money and the ones who are barely scraping by.
 
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