Noticing a disturbing pattern

[Griffin]

I have been viewing Pricescope for some time, and I have noticed a disturbing trend.
Newbies come and go here all the time with thier questions, and the folks on here are very friendly and knowledgeable, although some are particularly knowledgeable in questionable "facts" that get people to spend lots of money. Regardless, certain patterns emerge when it comes to questions about buying.

If a stone/ring/whatever is cheaper than the Pricescope approved vendors/advertisers offer, then they should be wary of it.
If a stone/ring/whatever is more expensive than the Pricescope approved vendors/advertisers offer, then they should be wary of it.
If a stone/ring/whatever is offered by anyone other than a pricescope approved vendor/advertiser, then they should be VERY wary of them.

Of course, there are lots of people on here that will very quickly disagree with me - very unbiased people with hundreds or thousands of posts over years, that spend hours on here daily, and always tend to recommend, by sheer coincidence of course, only these same vendors to every newbie question, usually within minutes. But don''t worry, they aren''t really vendors or shills in disguise - they tell us so. They are just really, really, really interested in jewelry and are not in the business at all, they just really like spending all this time "educating" people....

What gives?

Then again I might be completely off base, as I am only just one of "those" vendors that doesn''t have a share in Pricescope and are therefore unreliable, if not outright dishonest. At least, that''s what at least one Pricescope vendor has told customers of mine, so it must be true!

 

[valeria101]

True...

For better or for worse, I agree with you. Maybe an exhaustive study of internet diamond retail would prove that the Pricescope promotes unreasonable standards and unjustifiable premiums - or quite the contrary. Since such work has yet to be done and the possible authority behind it is yet to be born, maybe you can help ?

Shifting though the Net takes time and checking on sellers even more. Not something I do for a living... at least not for PS. How about a list of sellers you would consider worthy direct competitors of the usual PS lot?

I guess Pricescope is just another hub on the Net I find enjoyable, and surely part of the commercial environment. I hope not too many buyers would come and not take PS's wisdom with a grain of salt. Some simple stats of PS membership and activity do not reveal a "strong hand" - and this is why I stay. How would you label PS? To me is a reasonably unbiased learning environment - midway between a public diamond grading crash course and your average lifeless "forum" with one sponsor only (as some jewelry sites tried to pull off).

This is going to be a good thread... I hope.

 

[phoenixgirl]

Well, I'm a high school English teacher, but I'm not sure how to "prove" such a thing. I am definitely not in the jewelry business.

I like to post stones for people so that they can see what is out there. I try to post stones from at least two different vendors, so that I'm not just giving an advertisement for one vendor. However, I know I stick to the same vendors. That's because if you're recommending/highlighting a stone sight unseen, you want to know a little bit about it. Without at least an AGS cert, it's a shot in the dark. So I tend to stick to vendors who post the results of various analyses. It's really not a conspiracy on my part.

However, you're right that there is no way to keep actual vendors from assuming anonymous identities and claiming to be helpful consumers. We all need to remember a few things:
1) nobody's advice should be assumed to be worth more than two cents
2) the ultimate responsibility for doing all the homework and making the decision lies with the consumer
3) when somebody gives biased or questionable advice here, there are always several dissenters who make it clear that said advice shouldn't be blindly followed
4) vendors who post here who do not break the rules are not wrong to hope that their presence here will lead to future sales
5) nobody likes an overly policed forum, so let's not turn PS into one of those

 

[chris-uk04]

I think you are disgruntled by the amount of reference that normal people give to some of these vendors. Good reputations perpetuate. Someone comes to the forum asking questions about a so-so diamond. Many of these internet vendors have quality and competitive prices. They can be used as references. Might they get some preferential treatment? I think they might by circumstance and I’m sure pricescope has added to their business. However, I can see what’s in their inventory and how much they cost. I have no idea what Tiffany’s is currently carrying. I can’t see where the inclusions are with a Blue Nile diamond.

Many of these vendors offer a high quality of cut, which is often unseen in typical jewelry stores. People are taken for a ride because of the American demand to have the magical 1 carat at cheap prices. Therefore, the quality of the cut suffers. Cut will affect sparkle the most, yet cut is rarely mentioned when you go into a store. Stones are deliberately cut to save carat weight and its forced a plethora of low quality stones. Many people probably will unsuspectingly buy poorly cut stones and if they come to pricescope first, perhaps they can be saved.

At first, I thought there were a lot of shills here too. I had gotten Fred Cuellar’s book, but people here said he was crap. Many people pointed out his mixture of good information, but scare tactics to steer you to his diamonds. After evaluating their comments, I realized they were right. After spending some time on the board, I know that many of these people aren’t shills, because they constantly recommend different diamonds from different companies and talk honestly about diamonds no matter where they were bought (unlike the aforementioned Cuellar)

Sometimes people have their hobbies. Enough people get interested in diamonds after they start researching them for purchase. They since they were helped by others they tend to want to help others. I used to gravitate to a couple of political forums, but let me say – diamonds are a lot less frustrating.

 

[Daniela]

Most of the people recommend a few vendors because of their great reputations for quality stones that come with oodles of information. Often a person has worked with said vendor personally, and has found the service and the quality of the merchandise to be outstanding. No one is doing it because they are covertly working for one of the stores. The big PS vendors that always get mentioned don't really need any fake customers coming here recommending them, since they have a fair amount of real customers doing just that. And it is easy to tell the difference.

But I do agree that some vendors get pushed more than others. Every once in a while I think to myself, "Okay, enough already." But there aren't that many posters that I feel that way about. Let's face it, even the people on here who have put thousands of posts in have their favourites too. Does it get annoying? Yes. Do I always agree with them? Not always. Do I think that the people who come around here are smart enough to do their own digging around? Definitely.

I have some pet peeves about what advice people will constantly give, too, so I understand where you're coming from. But my pet peeves are more related to other issues.

 

[strmrdr]

If Im a paid shrill I sure am underpaid or maybe just disgruntled!

Naw, Im just a computer geek that likes gemstones.
Colored ones more than diamonds.
I cant speak for anyone else but those that are dealers and hide it or have an agenda quickly get found out.
If this were just a forum for those that toe the company line I would have been kicked out of here a long time ago.

I question everything and have a dim view of the diamond industry as a whole.
But lets be honest the often recommended vendors here are better than average.
Like the diamonds that tend to get preferred here are.
There are a few pricescope vendors that will never get a recommendation from me because of reports of bad service or I just don’t like there business practices or policies.

As far as you go I know you do awesome custom rings and seem like a nice guy but I never really thought of you as a diamond dealer.
Have you presented yourself as such?
I cant find your website address in your profile?

Now as far as pricing goes there is nothing wrong with lower prices but is it wrong to point out that the egl certs may be suspect?
Be honest there are a lot of con people in the diamond industry.

As far as higher prices well duh why would we want to see someone pay more than they have too for a diamond?

I guess I just don’t get your complaint.

 

[jaye]

Hi Griffin,
Great thread topic. I'm one of those people that you probably won't hear from again in the next few months. I've used Pricescope as an educational tool along with some other sites, books and discussing purchases with friends. We really have no way of knowing, statistically, how many viewers of this site go on to purchase from a B&M location or an online vendor that is not an advertiser on Pricescope.

I will say that one of the things that impressed me most was the input of online vendor reps, appraisers, gemologists and B&M jewelers, such as yourself. Yes, some might be fakes, but if you read enough and do your own homework the truth tends to surface. It is clear that there are some very knowledgeable people contributing to this forum with a passion for diamond jewelry. I have consulted a travel forum for over two years. Yes, there are some that are trumpeting their own city, restaurant, hotel, etc. but I've planned four vacations around that resource and all I can say is that forum is superb. I've tested it and it works.

This doesn't seem to be too outside the norm in terms of subject focused sites that have advertisers and forums.

Hope you keep contributing.

 

[Nicrez]

That's a fair estimation, but it's a bit inaccurate. I have pushed people that are trustworthy to the average newbie, because I KNOW that these people (who yes, have posts and customers on PS) will not lead the newbie astray, since their stake in this forum, and their client base is driven by their behavior.




We did not get our diamond from any vendor recommended from PS. We went with someone who carried what we wanted. BUT, we did speak to every vendor here that carried our stone within our parameters. We researched over 40+ vendors to find ours. Not too many newbies want to do that to find their stone. I have plugged a variety of stores when recommending that are NOT on PS. These vendors here just happen to be some of the higher than standard ones, and maybe that's why they come to PS. Aside from business, it is their hobby and they enjoy talking about diamonds, etc...




The best way to give someone help is to make their search esier, and to make sure they don't go to someone who COULD cheat them. We don't know other vendors, but welcome them to join us, and show us how they are reliable and honest. It's an open forum, I am sure Leonid would welcome any of them who would like to give advice and chat.

That's my $.02.

 

[pqcollectibles]

Well said, Nicrez! I don't care where anyone buys, as long as they make an informed buying decision. It it's local and they know they are paying more than a comparable diamond would cost thru Price Scope, fine. If it's a non Price Scope Vendor, and they are getting a deal, GREAT. As long as people know what they are buying and deal with a reputable seller, that's all I care about.

 

[blueskiesalways]

I also do not understand your complaint. I purchased my diamond from Mondera. I posted the stats on PS, and received some good imput, even though the vendors on PS knew where I was purchasing the stone from. Also, people who replied to my post helped to solve a couple of problems and encouraged the CEO of Mondera to participate in this forum so that people would become more knowledgable of Mondera's inventory and customer service. Doesn't appear that PS folks are hiding anything to me!!!

 

[Hest88]

There are probably a ton of worthy vendors out there, but the critical mass point is a good one. We can only recommend what we know, and, for the most part, what we know are PS vendors. Diamonds are expensive, so, unlike say chocolate bars, most of us really don't have the resources to test every single vendor out there. So, we fall back on the old reliables. Yes, we PS regulars are in ruts, but if as we hear more testimony by newbies, we feel safer recommending vendors other than our usual ones.

 

[Nicrez]

The jeweler that I have dealt with for my e-ring was a private guy on 47th street in NYC. He has no website, and no affiliation to PS, but I have already recommended him, as well as another jeweler I have worked with in my search, also not affiliated. Every company is dependant on the good feedback they get. My uncle got his e-ring from BN, and he tells everyone that THAT is the best online place. That's HIS experience.




I didn't use Good Old Gold, but I see now why they are so loved. They truly go above and beyond in education and service. Things like that don't go unnoticed. How do you think Tiffany's got their name before all the advertising? Word of mouth is the cheapest and most effective advertising for a jeweler, advertising rule #1. So this is just an indicator that he who takes advantage of this free advertising medium, and does so responsibly and pleases his customer, is bound to get many more. I am happy it works that way, because any of the negative, like good old Fred, get their fair share of press too!

 

[luvmysparklies]

I can see your points Griffin. However, my engagement ring came from GOG, and I have another diamond from Whiteflash. I really love both of my stones. So it is natural for me to lean toward people that I have received a great service/product from.

If someone asks for advice on a stone or vendor I try to refrain from suggesting vendors with whom I haven't actually had experience with. Sometimes people advocate certain vendors because they've been suggested over and over, and the person doing the recommending may never have had any actual experience with the vendor. If I give advice or a recommendation, I think its OK to speak from my actual experience and if I don't have actual experience, "but have heard great things about" I try to state that.

Also, I have seen where PS members will research a set of stats for a person and come up with more options for them -even if they (the researcher) has no experience with each vendor they recommend. That is just helping and giving someone more options. These other options don't always contain the same ole vendors.

Finally, I think that Leonid might be able to track the IP addresses behind the scenes, and may have some other systems in place so that if he were to find some misrepresentation(s) he could act accordingly.

For the record, I am just a consumer!

Luv

 

[elmo]

Griffin, you exaggerate somewhat to make a point, but I think it's a good point that I agree with to some extent. There's sometimes too much shilling going on here as well as some agendas regarding what's right and wrong when making a diamond selection. I've had both positive and negative experiences with some of the folks who can do no wrong

.

Let's turn this around though...since you're in the business, I'd like to see how you compete head to head in price, product, service, and web presentation with the usual suspects, gog wf dbof niceice etc. Put your money where your mouth is

. Otherwise I don't see where a seller has a right to complain.

 

[Nicrez]

F&I, I would love to see some of your work...I love jewelery of all kinds, I don't descirminate and I love silver!




Maybe Griffin wouldn't like his thread being hijacked for a moment, but any reason for me to see more pictures of jewelry is a good post to me!

Sorry Griffin, but if you have any websites or pictures of your stuff, post it! I'll be the first to go take a look! Lunch time is coming around, and since our weather is yucky in NY, looks like I am ordering in and surfing the net for jewelry!

 

[mike04456]

I have been here over 18 months, and through 1000+ posts, I don't think I have ever recommended a specific vendor, PS or otherwise. I like to think I have made a point of not doing so. I participate in the Tiffany threads, but only because it's a tradition around here, and I don't think I have ever told anyone flat-out not to buy at Tiffany's.




Almost all of what you're saying could be applied to any Internet community. Internet personalities and forums have a certain built-in, inherent, unreliability. Whoop-de-do. This is news? Caveat emptor.

 

[caratgirl]

There are periods of time on PS (seems to ebb & flow every few months like the tide), where some very opinionated people seem to take a vendor under their wings and recommend just about everything that is listed on their site.

I just don't spend enough time here to have the energy to show addidional resources that are out there. Sometimes, a consumer or vendor gets shut down because they cannot 'prove' that the diamond that they are looking at is a better cut than one of the few vendors that do provide that information.

At that point, it is up to the vendor that does not have that information to defend their inventory. I regularly post (or through PM's) Los Angeles based B&M's, just because I frequent their establishments and know first hand that their prices are better or equal to many of the PS vendors.

Some PS vendors charge a premium I would never pay, but that is because I can judge diamonds pretty well visually at this point. Newbies can't do this usually, so they do end up paying for the extra service and information and that vendor's eyes.

I personally purchased from DBOF, but only because they were able to broker a diamond that seemed great from the numbers, was just shy of the 2 carat mark that I wanted and have the color, clarity, girdle, and angles that I was actively searching for. I had looked for a few years to get a good deal, so I jumped on it. I would never have chosen this vendor, except that they have a fan club on PS, despite not being around (internal issues or some sort here).

So my 2 cents to all PS newbies and lurkers - be open to other vendors if the prices seem good and you can either take a risk or get more information from them. Otherwise, you really do take the easy road with the established vendors.

 

[pqcollectibles]

I forgot to say I'm a consumer. I enjoyed my time on Price Scope during my search. I lurked for a couple of months before I registered and began to post. It took me about 2-3 more months to find THE stone I wanted to buy. I'm a stay at home Mommy of 3 teens that learned a lot, got a lot of help, and like helping other people.

Dittos to what other folks here have said. I go for the diamonds with a lot of info. Right table and depth %'s with Ex/Ex doesn't tell me enough to consider a diamond. I want angles to even begin to recommend one. Ideal Scope, Hearts and Arrows images, etc, are better. The easy way, as Mara said, is search by Known Cut Quality among diamonds with plenty of info to make an educated recommendation.

As to who Griffin is,.... Griffin makes jewelry and sets gemstones. From Griffin's posts, Griffin has a fairly good eye for diamonds and the capability to reproduce about any piece of jewelry posted. Griffin has contacts in the industry and Vendors send stones to Griffin to set. I wish I knew more about Griffin. I find Griffin to be an interesting Member of the Forum. No matter which head is thinking or talking!!

 

[lawmax]

Consumers do develop a passion for diamonds and, since many are educated by the information presented on this site and have proud buying experiences with participating members, they recommend what they know and information to which they have easy access. There are other schools of thought which are not represented here. For consumers who begin with no diamond knowledge, especially about cut quality and pricing, this site is a great gift. A few years ago, consumers were really kept in the dark and had no good way to even attempt to make an informed buying decision.

There is a bit of bias here I think, but I don't believe it is of a conspiratorial nature. Pricescope is in part, by definition, used by those who want to buy what they perceive is the best quality for their money. These are price-conscious shoppers and the vendors listed compete by price and quality. For another type of buyer, value is added by provenance and perceived superior quality. If your market is that type of consumer, you probably won't find the majority of your market here. Tiffany, Winston's, Fred Leighton, etc. are not going out of business because Pricescope participants do not endorse them.

2 cents from an oldtimer.

Best,

lawmax

 

[Griffin]

Wow, I didn't expect to see so many really good responses, both here and PM. First, I have to say that after re-reading my post, I really didn't mean for it to sound as negative as it did, though the points remain the same. I appreciate all the input and discussion.

I am not directly a vendor of loose diamonds, though they are a major part of my business. On first finding Pricescope I was ecstatic to see a forum for education in an industry that has kept consumers in the dark for so long. I have strongly recommended this site to customers and business associates.

Informed customers make it easier for the truly competent and honest people in the business, and make people more likely to buy more often, no matter who they buy from. This helps everybody in the long run.
It is an accepted business principle that businesses in any given industry are not competition to each other until the market is saturated. With cooperation, this market isn't anywhere near saturated. The only reason the market is where it is now can be traced directly to ignorance of the market and what we have to offer by the public as a whole, as well as fear.

Unfortunately, a lot of the industry works on inducing fear and suspicion about jewelry and other jewelers, if not outright demeaning them - "don't trust anyone, its a jungle out there, but I'm ok." We see it all the time. It's expected for one retailer to knock others products, all in an attempt to scare people from doing business with anyone else, but hurting the very industry they are in as a whole.

That is one of the reasons I like the idea of this place - an open forum for open education and discussion, which by definition crusades against the misrepresentations and fear-based marketing "maul" and some B&M chains spread about diamonds and jewelry in general, as well as online buying which they have definitely attempted to demonize.

This is why I am troubled to see in practice that this forum is, intentionally or not, sometimes being used as a tool to simply turn the tables and demonize anything NOT bought online as opposed to simply educating.
The fear and suspicion has got to stop somewhere and I thought this place might be it.

I only bring this up because in the last two weeks I have had reports from two of my retailers and one close jeweler friend complain they are embroiled in either returns, chargebacks, fraud accusations, or demands for refunds/remakes on items - directly or indirectly because of information gathered from online, mainly this board and in one case directly from one vendor who advertises on it. My friend alone has eaten almost $4000 of this. Last week.

Reports from the field are coming in; Online retailing is indeed overcoming its stigma and carving out a market share of customers - customers who are just as afraid and suspicious of local sources as customers of local sources are told to be of anything online. Is this what we want?

Apparently, at least a few of us do. I for one don't want any more Cuellars out there, even if they are on our side of the e-tailing fence.

 

[Shappy]

I am a newbie to diamonds and came to this board about 6 weeks ago. I immediately noticed similarities between this board and a African grey parrot board I was on years ago. Here's the marketing technique--make people realize that once they are "educated" they will realize there is a superior type of grey parrrot(substitute H & A diamond) that will make the ultimate pet, pity those poor slobs who don't realize that and buy, gasp, from a pet (substitute Bricks and Mortor) store. Oh, and it just so happens the most active poster's is a major breeder and seller of these superior greys. Now she was a very nice lady and I'm sure her birds were wonderful, but no matter what the socialization a grey is still a grey (as mine is sitting next to me devouring a cardboard box -this "average" grey with a vocab of at least a hundred words plus phrases used appropriately and intelligently--it is simply surreal to speak with a grey.)
So I kind of cringe when I keep seeing terms like "frozen spit" and "poor performers", etc. again trying to put fear into people that instead of buying what appeals to them (and can afford) they are prodded into buying only the very "top" stone (which cooincidentally are offered by PS sponsors).
That being said, I've found the folks on this forum very, very nice and helpful. I was very pleased to see that people are paying mostly cash for their diamonds as they are luxury items, not something to go into debt over getting the right "specs" on the certificate. I mean, it sounds to me that people on this forum are very financially comfortable and want the "best" -that is great because it is much easier to find a quality stone on the internet (in my opinion) because it's easier to compare apples to apples.
I've learned a lot from all of you and my kids are always bugging me why are you still reading about diamonds when you just bought one? Because it's really addicting and I love all the stories and pictures. I've also discovered that we are living seriously below our means diamond-wise and who knows maybe I'll get another. . .

 

[aljdewey]

Griffin, I agree with much of what you've said, and you make some excellent points:

Informed customers make it easier for the truly competent and honest people in the business, and make people more likely to buy more often, no matter who they buy from. This helps everybody in the long run.

You BET, and I think that's where PS shines most. I'm a consumer....I stumbled onto this board because I didn't want my (now) fiance to rely solely on trusting someone else when he spent his very hard earned dollars on my ring. PS helped to "demystify" the world of diamonds for me.....it gave me a place to learn about them not only enough to make a smart purchase, but to actually realize how much there was to selecting them and instill a passion in me for them! I can guarantee I'll buy more often than I would ever have imagined prior to finding PS.

Unfortunately, a lot of the industry works on inducing fear and suspicion about jewelry and other jewelers, if not outright demeaning them - 'don't trust anyone, its a jungle out there, but I'm ok.' We see it all the time. It's expected for one retailer to knock others products, all in an attempt to scare people from doing business with anyone else, but hurting the very industry they are in as a whole.

Again, I wholeheartedly agree.....and that goes for BOTH sides of the fence. I think that there are vendors...both online and offline....who sell by educating, by providing information, and by igniting that passion for diamonds. And then, there are vendors....also both online and offline.....who sell (or most often, who don't sell) by preying upon consumer fear and by denouncing competitors. This type of behavior is to be discouraged WHATEVER the source.

This is why I am troubled to see in practice that this forum is, intentionally or not, sometimes being used as a tool to simply turn the tables and demonize anything NOT bought online as opposed to simply educating.

I don't know that I agree with this, though, per se. I am the epitome of the "online diamond" reborn, I suppose. I never, EVER imagined I could feel comfortable making such a huge purchase through the internet. Online venues gave me such a broader access to fine make stones that yes, I am converted. My endorsement or preference for buying online, though, doesn't mean I think *everyone* should buy online.

I think that the market holds many different types of consumers. There are the nerdy types like me who research the hell out of every facet.....almost to the point of obsession. Then there are types (like my fiance) who loathe "reality shopping" in any form......he'd happily pay 20% more for something online if it meant he wouldn't have to deal with people and actually GO to the store - ehhehehee. Then you have the "hands on" types.....the tactile shoppers. Those folks, I think, wouldn't be comfortable with an online purchase at all and would pay 20% MORE just to be able to touch it in the buying process.

As such, I personally don't believe there is a one-size-fits-all solution. I celebrate the folks who shop at their local jewelers and come here with wonderful stories of the service/price, etc. I celebrate those who overcome their fear and hesitation to consider a different way to buy....online. I even celebrate the guy who knows he's paying 40% more for a Tiffany ring and chooses it because it makes him happy.

The only thing I vehemently oppose is someone buying under misconceptions, false information, or coercion through fear by ANY party. Those are the things that I think PS works to campaign against. Yes, it's true that I have personal experience with a set of vendors that I'm VERY comfortable recommending, and if someone else can benefit from that, I think everyone wins. I think that it's equally desirable for you and others to share your experiences with vendors *you* are comfortable with. The more sound choices a consumer has, the better for everyone.

Reports from the field are coming in; Online retailing is indeed overcoming its stigma and carving out a market share of customers - customers who are just as afraid and suspicious of local sources as customers of local sources are told to be of anything online. Is this what we want?

I don't know the particulars of your retail friends and their chargeback situations......I can only tell you what I experience at *some* local stores. I was told I'd never be able to find a diamond with the angles I wanted (even though I knew there were at least 23 of them online at that given moment.). I was told to be wary.....what if the online vendor I bought from had vanished a year later when I had a problem? (How is this different from the 3 jewelry stores in my local town that have closed after lengthy histories?) I was told to beware of fradulent grading reports online - online diamonds were the "seconds"; the rejects that "real" jewelers refused to sell. Most insultingly, I was told that the 59.8/59 EGL 1.01 G, VS2 diamond in the local store was worth $16,400, but they would give it to me for the bargain price of $6400.

No, this isn't what we want......we don't want it from B&M stores, we don't want it from online vendors.....we don't want it from anyone. As a salesperson myself, I can tell you that the vendor who accentuates the positive of HIS products will do phenominally well, and the vendor who spends his days cutting down other's offerings won't. It's that simple. I'd have a problem with this type of BS regardless of who doled it out....online or offline vendors. I don't think the venue is the issue for most of us......it's the amount of information a vendor provides and how he postures his product.

 

[aljdewey]

----------------
On 2/24/2004 10:44:26 PM Shappy wrote:











Here's the marketing technique--make people realize that once they are 'educated' they will realize there is a superior type of grey parrrot(substitute H & A diamond) that will make the ultimate pet, pity those poor slobs who don't realize that and buy, gasp, from a pet (substitute Bricks and Mortor) store. Oh, and it just so happens the most active poster's is a major breeder and seller of these superior greys.

So I kind of cringe when I keep seeing terms like 'frozen spit' and 'poor performers', etc. again trying to put fear into people that instead of buying what appeals to them (and can afford) they are prodded into buying only the very 'top' stone (which cooincidentally are offered by PS sponsors).
----------------

Shappy - I have to respectfully disagree with the pieces of your comments above. Speaking for myself.....I don't assume that folks who get "educated" will ALL automatically want top-of-the-line stones....nor do I think that's the right solution for everyone. My hope in the education curve is that people understand how to get what they want.

If John Customer wants a sparkly diamond, he needs to know that sparkly is controlled by cut proportions, not by being fleeced into thinking that only VVS diamonds will sparkle. That doesn't mean I think he should buy an AGS0 diamond.....it means he could benefit from learning how cut affects sparkle and then decide what tolerances HE can live with.

Prodding people into buying a top stone? Sorry, but I strongly disagree on that one......I've very often seen it work in the reverse....people come here thinking they need to get D/E VVS diamonds, and people tell them how to SAVE money by dropping down without visual sacrifice.

I don't have a problem at all with people buying what appeals to them. I DO have a serious problem with someone who doesn't know any better being told by a vendor (in any format) that a stone is an exceptional performer when it's a I2 diamond with a fisheye....especially when that poor guy could get a MUCH better performing diamond for either NO extra money or pennies difference.

I've been around these boards for more than a year now.....and in most cases, posters will begin by asking "what's the budget". The challenge is to find the nicest stone within that budget. How is that any different from John Customer shopping from store to store looking for the best buy for his money? It isn't....oh, except that there are many more folks who can help determine if the diamond will be a good VALUE.

If John Customer is going to spend $3500 on a diamond......and he could buy a horribly cut diamond or a better cut diamond, where is the foul in identifying better diamonds in that price range? I would agree with you if John wants to spend $3500 on a diamond and others "upsell" him into spending $5k for a better diamond.....but that isn't what typically happens here.

The only point I agree with you on is this: yes, the PS vendors are more prone to carrying the finer makes. There's nothing stopping local stores from doing the same.....except that they've made business value decisions that it's not worth it for them to carry extensive inventory in this category since most consumers won't gravitate toward it. Perhaps as more consumer come to places like PS, it can actually create a climate that will help B&M dealers to increase their inventory and their sales of finer make stones.

 

[Mara]

Griffin I am very curious...you note that this board in particular has been instrumental in incurring fraud charges, chargebacks, returns etc for your friends in the business...can you be more specific?




For the most part in my opinion, I feel that most of us do a pretty good job of giving people our candid opinions. We are mostly consumers on here...and we say what WE would do. I also think that the Pscope community on here gives darn good advice to people seeking help. If that culminates in troubles for your friends...I am sorry....but I don't think that customers should *settle* for anything. Possibly it means that your friends are seeing the backlash start against mediocre service, and/or quality. Who knows. It doesn't make sense to speculate when the facts aren't known.




But you note that your friends are seeing more troubles than happy sales. Maybe instead of chastising the board for what? I'm not quite sure yet...your complaint still seems nebulous....anyhow maybe your friends should take a look at their business and realize that the market and the scope is changing. They may need to bump up things a notch instead of expecting the consumers to back down.




I don't subscribe to fear purchasing online or offline. Many a time I tell people, whether you purchase online or offline, DO YOUR HOMEWORK. Shop smart. Be educated. We often point people to examples of what to look for. Print out and show a retailer. Many offline deals are still had. But the online industry is growing, and it does spell a change for regular retail.




Just a thought.

 

[aljdewey]

As a follow up Griffin.......did you see this post by Novaguy? This is precisely the kind of ca-ca I was talking about.....and I'd be just as incensed if it came from a B&M jeweler or an online jeweler. There is NO excuse for this type of poor behavior.




I was in a mall jewelelry store asking about settings, when the clerk told me that, due to a poorly done job cutting the stone, my diamond would look dull more rapidly due to everyday grime and oil. (My stone is rated AGS 0 in cut, and has been independently appraised; the appraiser stated that the diamond had an ideal cut and excellent symmetry and polish).





He (the CLERK) said the facets were misaligned, he said it would have diminished fire and brilliance, and he then tried to convince me to return it and buy another one. He gave me a long speech describing how he holds his diamonds to a higher standard of quality, and that his stones keep their fire for longer due to their cut quality.





Does cut quality have anything to do, at all, with the frequency that a diamond needs to be cleaned?





This is the type of tripe I'm talking about, Griffin. This is a prime example of it.

 

[fire&ice]

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On 2/25/2004 12:06:35 AM Mara wrote:


Griffin I am very curious...you note that this board in particular has been instrumental in incurring fraud charges, chargebacks, returns etc for your friends in the business...can you be more specific?


---

I want to know the particulars also. It may present an interesting other side of the fence.

But, Griffen - 1. this is an online diamond forum - the slant is the nature of the beast. 2. It's a rare occassion that someone comes on here w/ a diamond from a B&M store that is a good value - when you see a stone w/ 67% depth w/ mm swing of 6.25 - 6.38 - one doesn't need the crown & pavillion angles (which if you read my mantra - doesn't tell the whole story)to say little care was shown to the art of the cut.

I bought my stone from a B&M. But, I did get quite a bit of crap from some very good B&M's during my search. One store had me drive 1 1/2 hours to view stones that were not my specified parameters. He proceeded to tell me that I was too picky. I said I have the option of buying on-line. He then pulls out a piece of frozen spit. He said this is what you get from the internet. I replied (to his shock) "Yes, that is what you get from ebay when you pay $500.00 for a 1c stone."

I had another B&M show me a 3c SI1 graded stone. I'm not a clarity freak; but, I saw a black inclusion -literally - the size of a pinhead smack in the culet. When I mentioned it, I was told that they didn't see anything.

These are true stories.

 

[mike04456]

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On 2/24/2004 9:59:02 PM Griffin wrote:





I only bring this up because in the last two weeks I have had reports from two of my retailers and one close jeweler friend complain they are embroiled in either returns, chargebacks, fraud accusations, or demands for refunds/remakes on items - directly or indirectly because of information gathered from online, mainly this board and in one case directly from one vendor who advertises on it. My friend alone has eaten almost $4000 of this. Last week.

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I'll add my voice to the chorus wanting some meaningful details, if you're going to use this as an indictment of internet diamond forums. And I think you can do it without naming names. The fact that these customers are demanding refunds, etc., means nothing in itself. Maybe they're victims of fear, uncertainty, and doubt from online, or maybe they just educated themselves after the fact and realized they could have done better. We don't know from what little you've provided.

 

[Nicrez]

OK, not stirring the pot here, but whatever! You say they lost $4K in the last week, meaning $4K out of the price they paid for the stone, or the profit margin that they established for the stones? There's a big difference...




I went to a store and saw a $12.5K stone being sold for $16K SAME STONE, literally, the GIA #'s matched. So, this means that the jeweler who owned the stone paid MORE for it than the internet guy who had it on his list? Not likely. It's just the profit margins were different. If these jewelers lost money, it was most likely off the higher profit they estimated than the wholesale price of the stone.

 

[hoorray]

Without details on the claims of losing money it is hard to say. However, I would venture a guess that it is an affect of the changing industry. Independant jewelers are having to reinvent their business methods and cost structures to remain competitive. It is not because some group of biased people here are swaying people towards an extreme. It is more likely because the Internet is creating a category of consumers who are much more educated about what they are buying (albiet sometimes after the fact), and are able to broadly price shop to make sure that they are paying a fair price for a given quality item. It could be that some consumers' demands are not taking into account the additional overhead a B&M has to cover as they make stones available for hands on selection. But it could also be that some jewelers are misrepresenting stones or charging significantly more than other vendors. The smoothing out of all this is just life in a competitive, global marketplace.

 

[Mara]

This whole thing is indicative of huge changes happening in the industry. Things recently seem to have taken on a retail vs online spin from a few things I have read...and I am not surprised that some B&M's are flipping out because they are going to be required to up their customer service, quality, etc and start playing with the big guys...yes...who I consider the online guys to be...guys who sell quality stones and aren't sitting in their pajamas..and are operating on low margin. They are primed to steal away the sale from the B&M retailer. What can the B&M retailer do to combat this? PLENTY.




Stop the whining B&M retailers. So the scope of the industry is changing...do something about it. So you've got more competition. Maybe you need to take stock of what your practices are vs the competition that is taking your business, and figure out how to come ahead.




I work for a manufacturer of hardware consumer goods...broadly lumped into something called 'pc peripherals'. We make and sell digital cameras, mice & keyboards, MP3 players..etc. We run into channel conflict with retail vs online all the time. As the manuf...we can't drop our prices on our online store past what channel is doing, even online channel, or they completely flip out and say we are trying to steal their customers. So what do we do to work around this? Instead of whining about it, we turn to more innovative marketing and sales in order to meet and exceed our revenue numbers. We do things like bundles, we have 1 day sales, we do alot of private marketing to our subscribed customers (over 3 million), we advertise our e-store specifically as the 'one stop shop' to get all of our products. We stock new accessories that work with our products that no one else has..we have exclusivity. There is always a new way to put yourself level or higher than the competition. If you can't budge too much on price, start bundling your products. Throw in a basic setting with a diamond, or give someone $$ towards a setting of your choice. Put together a 'new diamond care package' that everyone gets with their diamond purchase, which includes all the fun stuff like the loupe, viewers, ultrasonic cleanser etc. Or just buy 100 pieces of a really expensive ultrasonic cleanser and give it away for free with a purchase of a diamond over $$. Yes all of this eats into your margins, B&M retailers, but do you want to retain the business or bitch about the margin? One thing I have found working in eComm for a few years is that you'd be surprised how much people LOVE free stuff...esp if the value is perceived to be high. If they are spending $5000, give them a free $200 ultrasonic cleanser and a 'care kit' or $300 towards a setting.




Unless B&M retailers have tried this and deem it a rousing failure, one is not going to know just how effective tactics like this can be against competition. We in our consumer hardware world have found it very effective to keep our store running and meeting our numbers quarter after quarter. We use our imaginations and we run alot of test programs.




When I see a 'trend' starting to happen as Griffin may be noting with his friends seeing chargebacks, accusations, returns, etc...to me that says the customer needs to be made happier. It's not about complaining to others that things are being sullied by the big, bad internet. It's about getting off your duff and figuring out how YOU are going to make yourself stand out. Can you cut prices? Can you bundle products? Run a one day sale to your best customers? Bring in stones that you can't buy quite as easily on the internet (rare colored stones, etc). Figure out what is going to make and keep that customer for you and then go to it.




Sorry this is so long and rambling...but this is a very real phenomenon...the internet IS changing things, and B&M retailers have to be aware things will NOT change back.