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Newbie seeking advice needed on diamond: GIA report and HCA grade included

diamondseeker2006

Super_Ideal_Rock
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Joined
Jan 11, 2006
Messages
55,048
Ohhh, it's between the 2.03 D VS1 and the 2.12 E VVS2! The E faces up larger in diameter, and it also costs more. The D is equally beautiful, slightly smaller, and costs less. Both are outstanding stones. I think it all boils down to whether you want to spend the extra $3-4K for the 2.12 E. You can't go wrong between these two.
 

Dancing Fire

Super_Ideal_Rock
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Joined
Apr 3, 2004
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30,455
You could get a superideal cut 2 ct D VS1 for less than the 1.93. I think if you did a poll here, 100% of the people would choose the better cut 2 ct for less cost.

Beautiful stone! :love: I'll take this one.
 

sledge

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Apr 23, 2018
Messages
3,714
Price aside, please can the good people here help me narrow these down? I am hoping that a D IF ACA with lower ct weight turns up in the next month or so as I am planning to propose in January.
Have you reached out to WF to inquire what they have in the works? Many times they will have stones in production that aren't yet advertised that may meet your desired criteria. Also, you could consider a custom cut option.

If they don't have something in the works, or can't do a custom and if you can't or don't want to wait, then I might have a solution for you. Another very well respected super ideal vendor, HPD, with equally good quality, customer service and upgrade programs has a stone that will take your breath away. But it's not cheap.....$70k.

HPD/CBI 2.01 ct D IF

This particular stone is still being "crafted", aka cut. What I like is you get a guarantee of D/IF or better or your money back. In the past, I believe that Wink did do a D/FL as it received some very delicate care. Here is a link that further explains the "still being crafted" process.


This leads me to another point. The downside to buying a FL stone is that most likely it's very hard to set without changing the clarity from FL to IF.

For me, the only downside to doing a custom cut or buying one in the works is that you can't define the exact proportions you want. While either vendor will crank out a beautiful stone, I do believe you get slight differences in personality based on the exact proportions of a specific stone. In my mind, a stone with a small table is more preferable to one with a larger table. There are certain angle combos I prefer as well. Also, I like fatter arrows so get a little sweet on the 76 LGF's, yet 77-78 LGF's are more common on super ideals and technically more balanced.

My point is this -- for a buyer like me, I'd want to know the properties of the stone I'm getting so doing a custom would be difficult for me to commit to; however, I believe many of these items are personal preferences and mind issues that don't amount to much difference to the naked eye. For the vast majority of people, they'd be ecstatic with a custom cut and not getting that detailed.
 
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sledge

Ideal_Rock
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Apr 23, 2018
Messages
3,714
In regards to the 3 WF stones you posted, I think all are superb choices and I'd be happy to put any 3 of them on my wife's finger.

I view many different things when I look at WF stones, but one thing I like to look at is the glam videos as I feel that highlights small differences. For me the 1.72 carat speaks to me the most. The 2.12 is my second favorite. And the 2.03 is my third favorite.

I'm perfectly content with the clarity on all 3 for myself. However, I would personally prefer a D color if all other things were equal. That said, the reality is that most people won't be able to tell the difference between a D and E stone unless put side by side with a white background, etc. So we are probably splitting hairs again.

However, when I take into account size and available budget, I'd narrow the choices down to the 2.03 and 2.12. Here's where it gets tricky as I prefer the performance and clarity of the 2.12 over the 2.03, but I prefer the D color of the 2.03.

I would likely choose the 2.12 for my wife.

That said, you started out looking for a D/FL or possibly D/IF and maybe mentally giving up both clarity and color is too much. So a D/VS1 allows you to maintain your original color, size and budget goal while getting a superior cut and only sacrificing minimally on one item, clarity. So in some ways I believe the 2.03 may be a better fit for you from a mind status of what you originally set out to purchase.
 

Frederick_20574

Rough_Rock
Joined
Oct 7, 2019
Messages
10
Thanks @sledge for the great reasoning. This is just the sort of advice my novice butt needs!

I started off looking for a D, Fl, triple Ex, no fluorescence within my budget. This is before I found out that a triple ex (including excellent GIA cut) doesn't necessarily impress a lot of people in this forum.

So I started looking at WF. But they don't have D Fl so I am narrowing from there.

The inclusion map of the 2.03 might scar me mentally (a few days ago, before posting here, I had my mind set on Fl). Please can you let me know if the location of the inclusions under the table is less preferred if they are around the sides?

1570866566124.png

Fred.
 

sledge

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Apr 23, 2018
Messages
3,714
You're very welcome @Frederick_20574.

To answer some of your questions, yes, it's preferable to have inclusions that are not on the table. I say this with a grain of salt, as we are talking VS1 clarity and with the way WF vets their stones this will be a non-issue.

Keep in mind that in addition to location, you have to consider size, type and color of the inclusion. Some are better and worse than others. For instance, white/clear crystals are preferred over black crystals. And I personally would not consider a stone with a cavity, knot or laser drill hole.

This site provides some more info and pictures to help understand it better:


Also, be mindful that when looking at a cert, the inclusion that is listed on the top or furthest left (if a cert lists inclusions in a horizontal orientation, as opposed to vertical orientation) is what we call the grade setting inclusion. For instance, on the D VS1, the grade setting inclusion is the crystal. Just as it sounds, the reason the diamond received a VS1 clarity grade is because of the crystals. Any inclusions after that -- in this case, the feather -- would be less severe than the crystals.

And the mere fact of documenting these inclusions are misleading in the fact they make the cert look "bloody" with the red marks. But in reality the inclusions are graded using 10x scopes by trained professionals and at the VS1+ clarity levels are very hard to identify under magnification.

Now imagine the average Joe trying to detect those inclusions with their naked eye and you can see why many people feel that paying for clarity above VS1 can be a waste. Sure, the cert looks nice and for trained professionals and bragging rights or mind clean issues, it's very cool to have an IF or FL diamond but rarely do you get any actual appreciable benefit from it.

I personally have no qualms with the WF D/VS1. I think it offers tremendous bang for the buck as you are maximizing size, color and budget while not making any meaningful sacrifices in clarity.

Looking around at some of the other super ideal vendors (VC, BGD and HPD/CBI) I was only able to locate two more diamonds with D-E color and VS1+ clarity in the 1.70 to 3.00 carat range.

This one is on hold but has very nice specs. The clarity plot may ease your mind more, as there is less red on it. Also, if you were to propose on Valentine's Day, look how cool the carat weight would work out for you. ;)2

HPD/CBI 2.14 D VS1 @ $46,830 wire

This one is still being crafted, but again comes with the advantage of being D/VS1 or better. CBI is very conservative with their anticipated grades and a few users have enjoyed free color/clarity upgrades as result of going this route. But I explained that above as well.

HPD/CBI 2.11 D VS1 @ $46,774

If nothing else, I think the above stones provide some good equal comparisons for you. From a monetary perspective the WF wins.
  • WF 2.03 = $38,538 wire / 2.03 carats = $18,984 per carat
  • HPD/CBI 2.14 = $46,830 wire / 2.14 carats = $21,883 per carat
  • HPD/CBI 2.11 = $46,744 wire / 2.11 carats = $22,168 per carat
I would encourage you to place the WF stones on hold while you decide, as those caliber of stones don't fall out of the sky everyday and I'd hate to see a lurker swoop it from under you.
 
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Frederick_20574

Rough_Rock
Joined
Oct 7, 2019
Messages
10
Thanks @diamondseeker2006 and @sledge and all. I have been talking with WF and am inching closer to getting the 2.03 ct D VS1.

They do not currently have others (AGS 000, ~ 1.8-2 ct, D, IF-VVS1) in the works apart from those we have talked about here. They suggested I could go custom too but as @sledge says, there is no way of guaranteeing a perfect match to your target specs. I will ask my questions to WF about this.

I have not been able to stop thinking about the slight reduction in clarity from what I was originally seeking, which is to use my (very nice) budget to get a lower ct weight stone but D Fl/IF. When I visualise the stone in my head my mind's eye keep focusing on the inclusions, and clouds (that are 'not shown' on the inclusion map). Even when I look at that WF video of the stone I keep looking out for visible inclusions and every time I see what must be a speck of dust I see it as one of them crystal inclusion, etc.

I am not writing this to be a dick though I must appear to be one with my first world (non) issues complaint about a $40k stone that is VS1, not I1 in clarity. I am fortunate to be in the position I am in, to have saved enough to get a lovely diamond for my proposal. I guess I looking for some 'comfort' from people who may have been in a similar position - that is, how do you talk yourself into accepting something that you had already decided is mediocre from the outset when in fact it is not at all. I wanted to ask how people have reconciled this in their own mind?

Thank you again and have a nice weekend y'all,
Fred
 

sledge

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Apr 23, 2018
Messages
3,714
@Frederick_20574 I am glad you are progressing, but sorry to hear that it feels a bit painful for you.

You are correct, you have a nice healthy budget and I can understand setting an expectation and feeling like you are settling, even though a bunch of strangers are saying, "do it".

Since you are struggling, I would consider contacting both WF and HPD and have them ship their diamonds to a local trusted appraiser that one or both companies recommend. You could get the VS1 from WF and the IF from HPD. Then you could view them with your own eyes and see how how much the clarity bothers you, if at all.

I think one of the best and worst things about buying diamonds online is the magnified videos and pictures. It takes really minor issues and makes them appear much, much worse than they really are in actual life.

Hoping you find some peace w/ this decision.
 

diamondseeker2006

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jan 11, 2006
Messages
55,048
I may have said before that I have stones from VS1 to VVS1 in rings. I truly cannot see inclusions in a VS1. This is a mental or pride thing for you, but I cannot think of a single woman here who wouldn't choose the 2 ct D VS1 over a smaller D IF or F. In fact, I wouldn't want a D F because I'd be afraid to wear it since with wear, it likely would loose it's F grade over time. On this forum, VS1 is considered high clarity. We have women with 3-5+ ct ACAs and other superideal cuts who can afford pretty much any diamond they want, but VS1 tends to be the highest clarity choice because it is an extremely clean stone and most see no advantage to pay extra for something so microscopic that you cannot see. I like good clarity and generally do not look at SI clarity stones for myself, so it's not like we are trying to convince you to go with inclusions you can see with a 10x loupe. If her hearts desire was a smaller D F-IF, then we'd be recommending that. But a D VS1 over two carats is simply going to be a more impressive stone visually than a smaller one.

One more thing. Each time I have received a new diamond, I open the grading report to make sure it is the correct one. I then put it in my file drawer and basically never look at it again. The drawings on the clarity plots are much worse than the actual clarity in the stone, because they are making them visual. But in reality, inclusions are rarely seen with a 10x loupe and are certainly not seen with the eye in a VS1.
 

hypermom

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Feb 19, 2013
Messages
444
You have a really great budget for an engagement ring! I think you should, if at all possible, go to Whiteflash and see the stones in person. I’d also have them show you an F and G vs1/2. Without knowing which stone was which, judge with your own eyes which is most appealing. Some here love the icy whiteness of a D; others like a softer creamier color and look for J color. You may be surprised to find what you prefer.

I have a G VS1 and it is totally eye clean. That’s the highest I would pay for clarity. And I have to say the only question I’m asked about my stone is how big is it? No one has asked me the color or clarity.

I recently met with an appraiser to evaluate some diamonds and she told me in order, what she felt were the most important qualities in a diamond:
Cut
Color
Clarity.

She told me in her opinion clarity grade was the least important, it was just important that the diamond have no black inclusions or eye visible ones, or inclusions impacting diamond performance.

I would never want an FL stone because most likely setting it would drop its clarity grade as mentioned above.

Best of luck to you in making your decision!
 

Frederick_20574

Rough_Rock
Joined
Oct 7, 2019
Messages
10
Thank you @hypermom, @diamondseeker2006 and @sledge. I value your comments and I'm processing everything you say.

I got more photos and some video grabs of the 2.03 ct D VS1, below.


It is very I am also enquiring about custom cuts. They can do a smaller ct weight but higher clarity ACA. But as @sledge says, it can be the case that a bit can be left to chance with customs.

Handshot_2.030.jpg Tweezers_2.030.jpg

The above undoubtedly look amazing.

1571702061560.png

I can't post a video I received but have pasted several grabs below. That dark spot under the table around 7-8pm in the first three grabs, and around 6pm on the last - do you think that is that bigger crystal from the inclusion plot above?
1571702146986.png
1571702178176.png
1571702217617.png
1571702314065.png

Regards,
Fred.
 

ringo865

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Feb 14, 2014
Messages
2,260
Please shrink that diamond down to 8 mm - even 1 cm. You won’t see anything in that stone in real life. People (normal ones, not me) don’t carry a loupe around and inspect their diamond at 10x (or 200x like those videos/images).
 

diamondseeker2006

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jan 11, 2006
Messages
55,048
That diamond is gorgeous. I can't imagine anyone not being thrilled with it. The vast majority of engagement rings (likely over 99%) are far below this stone in cut, color, and clarity. I still can't imagine anyone preferring a 1.8 D VVS-IF over a 2 ct D VS1. If she had told you it had to be VVS or IF, I'd be saying something different. But since she has not, this is a fabulous diamond for an engagement ring.
 

amoline

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Oct 11, 2018
Messages
252
Here's a far more realistic scaled view of that diamond - and this is still big.

Not to speak on your behalf, but I doubt you'll be able to see absolutely anything that would bother you even if you spent time under magnification.

diamondrealsize.jpg
 

sledge

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Apr 23, 2018
Messages
3,714
Let's try this a different way....

Navy-Seal-Optical-Illusion.jpg
 
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