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Newbie seeking advice needed on diamond: GIA report and HCA grade included

Frederick_20574

Rough_Rock
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Oct 7, 2019
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8
Hello,

I am new and am seeking some advice from experts on this stone for an engagement.

In case the screen doesn't show, these are the specs:
Round brilliant: 7.98 x 8.01 x 4.95
Carat: 1.93
Color: D
Clarity: Fl
Cut, Polish, Symmetry: Excellent
Fluorescence: None
Table: 56%
Depth: 61.9%
Crown angle: 34.5%
Pavilion angle: 41.0%
LW: 1.00

I also entered these into the HCA and Score = 1.7 (Excellent, within TIC range)
Light return: Excellent
Fire, Scintillation, Spread: Very Good

Please before I make any rash decisions could the good folks here let me know what they think of this stone, or if I can find any more info that would help.

Much appreciated in advance,
Fred

1570450324235.png
 

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tyty333

Super_Ideal_Rock
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Numbers look good. Idealscope or Aset image by any chance?
 

sledge

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Wow, just under 2 carats with D color and FL clarity. Plus, the proportions have good potential. Seems like a pretty rare find.

I would ask for an ASET or idealscope image to confirm light performance. Also, for giggles, see if they will provide a hearts image as that will tell us a little more about the symmetry.

I am a little concerned about the 41 pavilion. As you are probably aware, the single value we see on a GIA report is derived from 8 actual values that gets rounded & averaged. Dipping over the 41.2 mark seems probable, but hard to know for certain.

My concerns aren't a reason to avoid buying. Just something to be aware of. If you can't get the images and like the stone, maybe purchase and buy your own scopes and confirm at home. Just make sure you have a good return policy.

Other items I might mention is you are obviously paying hefty price premiums for your choice in color and clarity. Sometimes people buy this based on cultural reasons. Sometimes because they are "the best". Technically yes, but most people would be hard pressed to tell the visual difference between a D FL and F/VS2. As long as you understand and are okay with it, then it doesn't make much difference.
 

diamondseeker2006

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I'd also want to see an idealscope or ASET image with a crown angle of 41 (40.8 would be the target for 34.5). Normally we want to see excellent on scintillation and fire and good only on spread. I'd personally pass on this one unless I could see the other light return images.
 

headlight

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Wow, just under 2 carats with D color and FL clarity. Plus, the proportions have good potential. Seems like a pretty rare find.

I would ask for an ASET or idealscope image to confirm light performance. Also, for giggles, see if they will provide a hearts image as that will tell us a little more about the symmetry.

I am a little concerned about the 41 pavilion. As you are probably aware, the single value we see on a GIA report is derived from 8 actual values that gets rounded & averaged. Dipping over the 41.2 mark seems probable, but hard to know for certain.

My concerns aren't a reason to avoid buying. Just something to be aware of. If you can't get the images and like the stone, maybe purchase and buy your own scopes and confirm at home. Just make sure you have a good return policy.

Other items I might mention is you are obviously paying hefty price premiums for your choice in color and clarity. Sometimes people buy this based on cultural reasons. Sometimes because they are "the best". Technically yes, but most people would be hard pressed to tell the visual difference between a D FL and F/VS2. As long as you understand and are okay with it, then it doesn't make much difference.
@sledge I’ve noticed you’ve made similar mention in the past regarding stones in the 2 ct range (see 1st paragraph)... what’s the deal with this weight? Thx!
 

Frederick_20574

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Thank you for your advice so far people. Appreciate it (I'm a long time lurker and was cautious of posting here for fear of looking like an idiot but you are all nice people).

Hoping I will get an image to post here:
1570528546745.png

Thanks again and any more feedback welcome,
Fred.
 

sledge

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@sledge I’ve noticed you’ve made similar mention in the past regarding stones in the 2 ct range (see 1st paragraph)... what’s the deal with this weight? Thx!
As @distracts was saying, you get the face up size of 2 carats without what we call a magic weight price premium. Meaning if two stones are identical in every way but stone A is 1.9x carats and stone B is 2.0x carats then not only do you pay for the extra 0.xx carats but you also pay a higher $ per carat.

Unfortunately diamond cutters know this and it's normally more profitable for them to cut a stone so it has the little extra weight and gets the magic carat weight premium vs cutting the stone for maximum beauty and missing those magic carat weights.

As such I personally become leery of stones that hit exact magic weights such a 1ct, 1.25ct, 1.5ct, 2ct, etc. This list is not exhaustive but just a sample.

I might add that as you creep closer to the magic weight I think (smart) vendors take a portion of that premium. What I mean is if there is a $2,000 premium for 1.90ct vs 2.00ct then maybe a 1.98ct stone has a $700 premium, which allows the vendor to take a portion of the premium but also provides a monetary incentive for the buyer to remain sub 2 carat, even if it's just a technicality (as no discernible size difference would exist to differentiate 1.98 vs 2.00).

Keep in mind when diamond rough is being bid on, it's rare to find such an opportunity. Most will bid to go 2 carat+ so it drives the price higher. So the ability to obtain the rough at a reasonable price to create such a weighted stone doesn't always make sense and consequently you don't see them every day. So IMO, they offer a good value that is also somewhat unique/rare.

Of course, this doesn't guarantee anything. You should still perform due diligence to ensure maximum light performance and symmetry exists and that the price for the other attributes are fair for the current market pricing.
 

sledge

Ideal_Rock
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As a point of reference here is an article on obstruction that may help @Frederick_20574 and others better understand:

 

Dancing Fire

Super_Ideal_Rock
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30,341
As such I personally become leery of stones that hit exact magic weights such a 1ct, 1.25ct, 1.5ct, 2ct, etc. This list is not exhaustive but just a sample.
Yup!
 

headlight

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@sledge (and @distracts), thanks for the replies. I understand the whole magic #s thing, that wasn't what i was referring to. I got the impression (probably incorrectly!) that you (@sledge) had made reference that just finding 2 ct stones that are "decent" isn't easy (whether due to proportions or clarity issues or other???). Maybe I misinterpreted.
 

distracts

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@sledge (and @distracts), thanks for the replies. I understand the whole magic #s thing, that wasn't what i was referring to. I got the impression (probably incorrectly!) that you (@sledge) had made reference that just finding 2 ct stones that are "decent" isn't easy (whether due to proportions or clarity issues or other???). Maybe I misinterpreted.
It’s because of the “magic weight” thing - rough that could cut a blah 2.0 or a great 1.96 is usually cut to a blah 2.0 because of the way pricing works. So stones at the magic weight numbers (or just above) are actually more likely to be not-decent because they’ve often been cut primarily to hit that number rather than to look good.
 

sledge

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@sledge (and @distracts), thanks for the replies. I understand the whole magic #s thing, that wasn't what i was referring to. I got the impression (probably incorrectly!) that you (@sledge) had made reference that just finding 2 ct stones that are "decent" isn't easy (whether due to proportions or clarity issues or other???). Maybe I misinterpreted.
Generally speaking, the larger a diamond then the more rare it becomes. That said, there seems to a pretty ample supply of 2 carat stones. If this was a 3+ carat stone I'd think it would even be more rare as those aren't as ample.

But size is one of the things that make it rare because it's just barely less than 2 carats so yields a better bang for the buck than a true 2.00+ carat stone. While sub magic carat weight stones don't fall out of the sky every day, they do pop up from time to time if you are patient and/or willing to be flexible in the other C's.

Now think about how many D stones are in the market. And how fewer FL stones exist. And then how few GIA XXX stones exist that are truly excellent and worth a real consideration.

Individually these attributes have different levels of uniqueness, but compounded together they become very unique.

1.9x carats + D color + FL clarity + promising proportions = a pretty rare unicorn
 

TODiamonds

Shiny_Rock
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Jul 27, 2019
Messages
105
From the shopping that I've in the past, I find that in theory finding the 0.9x, 1.9x stones should yield better value because they fall shy of the "magic marks", in practice most sellers will price it pretty damn close to the magic mark anyway so the discount is actually pretty small.

Not seeing the big discounts, I eventually gave up on that strategy and instead looked at stones of less common sizes (Ie: 1.3ct, 1.65ct, 1.78ct, etc) knowing that at these sizes, the cutters were less motivated to try to clear a certain magic mark and your chances of finding a well cut diamond with less excess weight are higher.

As Sledge says, be very leary of those 1.00, 1.01, 2.00 stones (especially on mainstream sites like BN/JA) - most of them are crap!
 

sledge

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From the shopping that I've in the past, I find that in theory finding the 0.9x, 1.9x stones should yield better value because they fall shy of the "magic marks", in practice most sellers will price it pretty damn close to the magic mark anyway so the discount is actually pretty small.
Just curious, what color & clarity was you seeking? On a more common stone like a H SI1 then I could see there being potential less savings as I anticipate those are heavily traded stones. At least more so than a D FL or even D IF.

So while the information below may seem like I'm disputing your position, I'm really not. Just if you were comparing against stones that are more popular and move faster in the market, then I think you may have seen a different pricing strategy. Also, people of various wealth levels may consider "small" to mean very different things.


Real Life Example 1:

BN 1.93ct D/FL @ $38,410


BN 2.01ct D/FL @ $53,397

Nearly $15k swing with no appreciable size, color or clarity differences. Neither has proportions I'd consider purchasing, especially for that amount of money but IMO the 1.93 is less attractive than the 2.01.

Breaking it down further, we can see:
  • $38,410 / 1.93 ct = $19,902 per carat
  • $53,397 / 2.01 ct = $26,566 per carat
  • Approx $6,665 cost difference, or 33%, per carat

Real Life Example 2:

JA 1.90ct D/FL @ $42,260


JA 2.03ct D/FL @ $60,120

Nearly $18k cost swing with no appreciable size, carat or color differences. Due to JA's bonehead move to remove certs I cannot make a determination about the proportions, but looking at the video, neither stone looks like something I'd be interested in plunking down that sort of money on. But like the BN stones I assume these are both probably GIA triple X stones, although none of them are truly "excellent" IMO. Regardless, it gives us a good comparison.

Breaking it down further, we can see:
  • $42,260 / 1.90 ct = $22,242 per carat
  • $60,120 / 2.03 ct = $29,616 per carat
  • Approx $7374 cost difference, or 33%, per carat

Final Conclusions:
1. I think most people would consider $15-18k savings significant enough to consider a 1.9x stone over a 2.x stone assuming color, cut and clarity were all equal.

2. Buying nearly equal stones from JA vs BN appears to have a cost premium.

3. Regardless of the exact dollar amounts from two different vendors, it appears there is approximately 33% price premium to jump from a 1.9x stone to 2.x stone. That's pretty hefty considering there is nothing of appreciable difference.

4. Lowering color to F+ color and dropping clarity to a VS1+ would still yield a very high quality stone and most likely allow you to increase size and/or save a few bucks. And the vast majority of people would never be able to discern any difference. However, I understand there are mind clean issues, cultural issues and potentially an issue of just wanting a very rare stone at play here.
 
Last edited:

TODiamonds

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Jul 27, 2019
Messages
105
Just curious, what color & clarity was you seeking? On a more common stone like a H SI1 then I could see there being potential less savings as I anticipate those are heavily traded stones. At least more so than a D FL or even D IF.

So while the information below may seem like I'm disputing your position, I'm really not. Just if you were comparing against stones that are more popular and move faster in the market, then I think you may have seen a different pricing strategy. Also, people of various wealth levels may consider "small" to mean very different things.


Real Life Example 1:

BN 1.93ct D/FL @ $38,410


BN 2.01ct D/FL @ $53,397

Nearly $15k swing with no appreciable size, color or clarity differences. Neither has proportions I'd consider purchasing, especially for that amount of money but IMO the 1.93 is less attractive than the 2.01.

Breaking it down further, we can see:
  • $38,410 / 1.93 ct = $19,902 per carat
  • $53,397 / 2.01 ct = $26,566 per carat
  • Approx $6,665 cost difference, or 33%, per carat

Real Life Example 2:

JA 1.90ct D/FL @ $42,260


JA 2.03ct D/FL @ $60,120

Nearly $18k cost swing with no appreciable size, carat or color differences. Due to JA's bonehead move to remove certs I cannot make a determination about the proportions, but looking at the video, neither stone looks like something I'd be interested in plunking down that sort of money on. But like the BN stones I assume these are both probably GIA triple X stones, although none of them are truly "excellent" IMO. Regardless, it gives us a good comparison.

Breaking it down further, we can see:
  • $42,260 / 1.90 ct = $22,242 per carat
  • $60,120 / 2.03 ct = $29,616 per carat
  • Approx $7374 cost difference, or 33%, per carat

Final Conclusions:
1. I think most people would consider $15-18k savings significant enough to consider a 1.9x stone over a 2.x stone assuming color, cut and clarity were all equal.

2. Buying nearly equal stones from JA vs BN appears to have a cost premium.

3. Regardless of the exact dollar amounts from two different vendors, it appears there is approximately 33% price premium to jump from a 1.9x stone to 2.x stone. That's pretty hefty considering there is nothing of appreciable difference.

4. Lowering color to F+ color and dropping clarity to a VS1+ would still yield a very high quality stone and most likely allow you to increase size and/or save a few bucks. And the vast majority of people would never be able to discern any difference. However, I understand there are mind clean issues, cultural issues and potentially an issue of just wanting a very rare stone at play here.
I was shopping in the H-I, SI1 range. Definitely nowhere near the quality/price ranges of the stones you're looking at above!
 

Frederick_20574

Rough_Rock
Joined
Oct 7, 2019
Messages
8
Hi all,

I got some images for this 1.93c, D, Fl stone - this is the one with the 41 degree pavilion angle.

@tyty333, @sledge, @diamondseeker2006, @TODiamonds, as requested.

The specs are are the top of this thread in my OP post.

I am considering this for my engagement. Appreciate your thoughts.

Kind regards,
Fred


1570751301083.png

1570751334354.png
 

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diamondseeker2006

Super_Ideal_Rock
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Messages
54,999
I don't think that's an idealscope image and it's definitely not an ASET image. I think it's a hearts and arrows viewer. I think it looks pretty good. Do you mind telling me what the price is on that diamond?
 

diamondseeker2006

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If you could handle medium fluorescence (I would actually prefer it if I have a choice), this one is slightly better on the HCA with 1.3 and excellent on light return and fire and very good on scintillation and spread. ASET looks good. Neither of these stones would be top cut quality, but this one is on the higher end of GIA Excellent cut. I'd buy this one over the other one, personally (not knowing price).


If you really want D color, I'd expand the search to IF and VVS1-VVS2 if I were you to try to find the best possible cut. IF and VVS are extremely clean stones.
 

Frederick_20574

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Hi @diamondseeker2006, thank you for your comments on this. Appreciate your thoughts. The price is $43,942.

Thank you for suggesting the 1.94c stone. By no means being an expert I prefer no fluorescence. I understand I can't have everything.

If I were to summarize your feedback on the original 1.93c stone, would it be that though its images look pretty good the cut and HCA scores (and price) is inferior to this other 1.94c one? On an isolated level the 1.93c stone's cut is good but not great?

Regards,
Fred
 

diamondseeker2006

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Fred, the cut on the 1.93 looks nice! Cut is the number one factor in the beauty of a diamond. Then color and clarity are preferences, but certainly D is a nice bright stone. But I am going to tell you that there's no way on earth I'd pay $44k for that stone when I could get the 1.94 at $33-34k. It's not worth $10k more. B2C has lower prices in general, but that little bit of fluorescence is a bonus that is lowering the price. The good news is, there is nothing whatsoever wrong with fluroescence except in rare cases such as with very strong flurorescence sometimes or with strong and low clarity combined. There's just not an issue with medium or lower. I've had a diamond that had strong and I loved it but eventually changed to a larger diamond. Fluoresence is rarely seen unless you shine a UV light on it. Then you see this amazing bluish-lavender glow. We've had a recent conversation on the forum with some of the pros saying they think prices will go up on these stones. There has been a prejudice against them for a number of years by some jewelers, but in reality, many people prefer them. I hate to see you overpay for the other stone when the 1.94 is going to basically look the same other than if you carry around a UV light to shine on it. In fact, my original engagement ring had a diamond with medium blue, and I didn't know it had it for 25 years when I took it to a jeweler to find a new setting!

Anyway, bottom line, I would look some more before buying that 1.93 at that price.
 

diamondseeker2006

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sledge

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The images you received are hearts and arrows (H&A) which allows us to analyze the symmetry of the stone. While it may not be as perfect as a true H&A stone, the symmetry is very good and considerably better than most GIA XXX stones.

I'd still like to see an ASET or an idealscope image of this stone, as that will help us determine/confirm light performance. Especially for the amount of money you will be paying.

The 1.94 that was presented as an alternate is very intriguing. It's almost $10k cheaper, and doubtful the medium fluor will be an issue. Still ask B2C if it causes any negative effects just for peace of mind. Also, you may ask Shane if they can get you a H&A set of images and if they have a detailed SARIN report available. I believe they have the capabilities to do those extras when the stone is in house.

I wouldn't pay 25% premium for the 1.93 assuming the 1.94 checks out. But then again I bought my wife a BGD stone w/ medium blue fluor so I'm not scared of it, as long as you do your homework.

Nice find @diamondseeker2006 !
 

sledge

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You could get a superideal cut 2 ct D VS1 for less than the 1.93. I think if you did a poll here, 100% of the people would choose the better cut 2 ct for less cost.

Holy sparkle bombs!! Small 55.5 table, awesome crown/pavilion and some fat arrows (76 LGF's) to boot. :love: :love: :love:

True H&A stone. Superior upgrade program. All data to make an educated decision. Over the 2 carat mark. And cheaper because you "sacrificed" with VS1 clarity.

Three words -- all day long!!

Screenshot_20191010-231233_Chrome.jpg
 

Frederick_20574

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Thanks @diamondseeker2006 and @sledge.

On the 1.93 vs 1.94, the 1.94's cut is marginally better but it has medium fluorescence, which is not likely an issue. The 1.94 is cheaper mainly because of the fluorescence (other specs are very similar between the two).

On the 1.93 vs the H&A, the H&A has superior cut (and no fluorescence) but is a VS1. The H&A is cheaper because it is VS1, with the lower price offsetting the larger carat weight and cut.

What about the 1.94 (medium fluorescence) vs the H&A (poorer clarity)?

I want to say I appreciate all your thoughts. I do not have my mind as yet fixed on anything - hence I am on this forum seeking thoughts from you good folks.

Regards,
Fred
 

diamondseeker2006

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VS1 is extremely clean and it is difficult to see inclusions at 10x magnification. VS1 is a very desirable clarity because it is totally visually clean even with a 10x loupe and it is priced a little lower than VVS and IF-F. VS1 is my favorite clarity. It is considered high clarity. You cannot see a visual difference between VS1 and VVS+. I have diamonds from VVS1 to SI1, but I cannot see any difference in my VS1 versus the VVS one. I have VS2 in my WF ACA studs, but they are totally eyeclean. I do prefer VS1 for a ring stone.

My order of preference would be:

1) the 2 ct. Whiteflash ACA D VS1 for the superior cut

2) the 1.94 with medium blue fl. since we have an ASET showing the light return, and it is the lowest priced of the three.

I would not buy the 1.93 because I think it is the highest priced and not as good as the other two stones. There is a lot of value in being over the 2 ct mark since that WF stone actually costs less than the 1.93 D F.

If you think the recipient has the mental desire for IF-F only, then that's a different matter. I know she couldn't see the clarity difference, but I am pretty certain experienced eyes would see a difference in the cut of the ACA and the other two. Still, I like the 1.94 if you feel you can't go to VS1. The 2 ct ACA is superideal cut and the 1.94 is one of the better excellent cuts.
 

canuk-gal

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HI:

You have received good advice here. While you have a gorgeous budget-- it doesn't make sense to just spend for the sake if DIF (oh sacrilege Sharon!). Please use your $ for near specs (color clarity) of SUPERIOR cut. You'll still have enough left over for a good bottle of champagne.:saint:

cheers--Sharon
 

Frederick_20574

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Oct 7, 2019
Messages
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Thank you so much @diamondseeker2006 and all, including @sledge and @canuk-gal . I'm now looking at WF ACAs. I convinced myself last night that things that manifest themselves with a ring is the size and sparkle (one of her friends has a decent sized stone on her finger but not very sparkly). Getting a D and Fl will just be for me and my ego, not her.

There are three ACAs at WF that fit the budget, including the 2 ct D VS1:

Price aside, please can the good people here help me narrow these down? I am hoping that a D IF ACA with lower ct weight turns up in the next month or so as I am planning to propose in January.

1570844931742.png

Thank you again everyone for your thoughts and advice.

Fred.
 
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