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Newbie here - Fair Price on Estate Pear Diamond?

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starryeyed

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Hello Everyone!

I am new to the Pricescope forum. I have learned a ton from Pricescope "Knowledge" and would imagine the forum will be top-notch also!

My question is about a 2.75-carat estate pear diamond - I''m wondering what is a fair offer price. The diamond is set in a platinum ring with small baguette sidestones. The jeweler has this ring on consignment. He claims the stone is G/H color and VS clarity. The brilliance of the stone is very nice, but the shape is a bit elongated. He didn''t know the age, but it is less than 50 years. He is asking $19K. This seems like a lot, but I''m not sure of what to offer.

I have read Richard Sherwood''s thread from 2004 entitled "Reselling Gems..." in the FAQ section to try to get an idea of pricing. However, all of the different selling scenarios report price expectations relative to "wholesale". Unfortunately, I am a consumer and don''t have a feel for what "wholesale" is.

I would appreciate help with this. Thanks!
 

canuk-gal

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HI:

Welcome. Aside from the "claims" of the jeweller, is there a recent appraisal or lab papers that might indicate the characteristics of the stone and any "wear and tear" you should be aware of? Can you make the terms of sale contingent on your own independant appraisal?

cheers--Sharon
 

starryeyed

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There are no certs or appraisals with this ring. We looked at the stone under the jeweler's 30x microscope and I didn't see any glaring inclusions. I'm a somewhat educated consumer, but I probably couldn't tell the difference between a VS and a super-clean SI-1. The color might be G/H or H/I - I couldn't tell that either. It's definitely at least in the near colorless range, because I compared it to my G studs and it looked comparable.

The jeweler said he would send the stone for certification if I wanted, but I guess I worry that if it comes back better before purchasing, he would be less flexible on the price. I won't buy the stone if the jeweler wouldn't offer a guarantee of being within 1 color or clarity grade. However, I'd rather purchase for a better price and then send in for certification.

So what do I offer? What would be considered "wholesale" on say worst-case scenario: H/I, SI-1, "Good" cut?
 

Madam Bijoux

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Hi! I would insist on a GIA certificate. If the GIA certificate agrees with what the dealer told you, I think $19K is a very good price, considering that my friendly local T & Co is asking $52K for a 2 carat G color round brilliant and $21K for a 1.21 carat G color round brilliant. What did the jeweler say about the clarity on the pear?
 

starryeyed

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Hi Madam. The jeweler said VS. I can understand what you are saying about the GIA cert, but I feel confident that the pear is close to what the jeweler is saying. It could be a clean SI-1 and an H/I, but it''s not worse than than. It could even be better.

The angle on this sale that I am trying to figure out is what can the owner get if he/she were trying to sell this stone 2nd hand. This piece is on consignment, so the owner is trying to get as much $$ as possible. What would a jeweler offer? What would a pawn shop offer? I want to offer an amount just above this so it''s an attractive offer, but I''m not over-paying.
 

RockDoc

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Date: 11/6/2006 3:39:33 PM
Author: starryeyed
Hi Madam. The jeweler said VS. I can understand what you are saying about the GIA cert, but I feel confident that the pear is close to what the jeweler is saying. It could be a clean SI-1 and an H/I, but it''s not worse than than. It could even be better.

The angle on this sale that I am trying to figure out is what can the owner get if he/she were trying to sell this stone 2nd hand. This piece is on consignment, so the owner is trying to get as much $$ as possible. What would a jeweler offer? What would a pawn shop offer? I want to offer an amount just above this so it''s an attractive offer, but I''m not over-paying.

Ask the jeweler to give you prices based on all of the grades it "might" end up being. If you are satisfied with those qualities and prices, you pay the one that matches what it ends up being graded.

This should be worked out beforehand, not negotiated after. That is fair to both parties. Everyone knows where they stand that way.

If you want to offer less, do it before the stone is sent out, and get an acceptance from whomever it was consigned from.

Alternatively, you could have an appraiser check it out, but tell him it is an estate item.

Rockdoc
 

denverappraiser

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‘Wholesale’ isn’t really a very useful concept in the diamond business but you can get a pretty good ideal what dealers are paying for similar goods by using the link at the top of the page called ‘pricescope your diamond’. Enter a set of parameters that are similar to yours and you’ll get a few offers. These prices, although not technically wholesale, are usually 10%-20% below what is customarily quoted as such. Typical dealer cost is about 10%-20% below what you see advertised here. Notice that is varies a great deal depending on the other details of the stone. That’s why the advice above was given. They''re right. You simply shouldn''t be buying a 2.75 stone without a GIA report and, even then, you should be consulting with a professional appraiser. Tiny details can make a big difference.


The dealer is, of course, earning a commission here and your objective of buying it for somewhere near the price that a pawnshop would pay is unlikely to happen. That said, pawnshops are all over the board on what they pay anyway. Some would offer as little as $275 for it! I would be very surprised if there most would pay over $10k and that assumes accurate and documented grading. I won''t comment about whether you''ve got a good deal at $19k because there are so many variables involved. It might be good, it might be terrible.


Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver
 

starryeyed

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Neil, this is exactly the type of info I was looking for - thanks a bunch! One follow-up question. Where exactly is the link for "Pricescope your Diamond"? I''m not seeing it.
 

denverappraiser

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At the top of the page, right under the masthead. The same thing can be reached in a slightly different format from the ''home'' page. It''s called ''Diamond prices'' there but it''s all from the same data.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver
 

starryeyed

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Ok, I saw where you are talking about - the diamond price search. I was confused - thanks for clarifying!

I totally see what you mean about how small differences can make a huge difference in price. Here''s an example from the search I performed:

Stone #1 - Pear, EGL cert
2.55 carats
I, VS2
$12,903

Stone #2 - Pear, EGL cert
2.50 carats
G, VS2
$21,375

Massive difference in price! I didn''t list the search stones'' measurements - I''m sure they''re part of the price disparity. Your point is well taken.

The jeweler said the diamond was 2.75 carats, but he figured that based on taking some measurements because the stone is set. He did not actually weigh it. So even the carat weight could be debatable.

Given the other info about the seller''s expected return and what the jeweler would need to make on the deal, I can''t see offering any more than $8-9K tops. I''d definitely need to submit the stone for grading and have some sort of guarantee that the report would come back within 1 color/clarity grading difference. Does that sound reasonable or is the offer still too much?

This exercise has been incredibly helpful! Thanks everyone for sharing your knowledge and being patient!
 

starryeyed

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Well Gang, so at the end of the day, I offered $10K and today it was accepted, contingent on my satisfaction with an independent appraisal. I have an appointment with a GG tomorrow AM.

I have the ring in my hot little hands and will try to post pictures. I''m trying not to get excited in case the color or clarity is off, but it looks pretty promising.

If things work out, I want you all to help me with a pendant design!
 

Modified Brilliant

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pricescope

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Date: 12/18/2006 6:44:19 PM
Author: starryeyed
Well Gang, so at the end of the day, I offered $10K and today it was accepted, contingent on my satisfaction with an independent appraisal. I have an appointment with a GG tomorrow AM.

I have the ring in my hot little hands and will try to post pictures. I'm trying not to get excited in case the color or clarity is off, but it looks pretty promising.

If things work out, I want you all to help me with a pendant design!
Yep, and if troubles happens with highlighted just send them to me.
35.gif
 

starryeyed

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Hi Jeff. I sure will. In the meantime, here are some totally lousy photos. It''s dark out now and every light in my house is yellow incandescent - aargh!

I am a little concerned because I just noticed through my handy-dandy 10x ideal-scope that also doubles as my loupe, that there is something that looks like a fracture or cleavage that originates from under one of the side prongs. It doesn''t travel too far, but I''m wondering if it''s damage and if it can get worse. Hmmm.....

PearRingAwfulLight1.jpg
 

starryeyed

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Last one for now...

PearRingAwfulLight2.jpg
 

belle

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hope it goes well tomorrow and please do post pics starryeyed!
36.gif


eta: der! you are already posting them i see!
 

starryeyed

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Any thoughts on the fracture/cleavage thing? I''ll certainly mention it to the GG tomorrow....
 

kenny

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I believe ovals marquis and pears have a tendency to have bowtie.
Are those dark shadows on the side bowtie?

Experts, would that be considered low medium or high bowtie?
 

belle

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Date: 12/18/2006 7:17:48 PM
Author: starryeyed
Any thoughts on the fracture/cleavage thing? I''ll certainly mention it to the GG tomorrow....
i wouldn''t even want to guess. if it is actually a fracture/cleavage you may even want to get a second opinion, just to make sure. i know you haven''t even got a first opinion yet
37.gif
but i am just thinking ahead! i would want to make sure there was no chance of further damage.
was it not mentioned before you made an offer?
 

starryeyed

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Hi Belle. No it was not mentioned. Perhaps the jeweler didn''t see it, or perhaps he didn''t want me to see it!

When I looked at the stone under 30x magnification, I saw the stone face-up. This fracture/cleavage is hard to see - you have to focus the loupe slightly underneath the girdle, close to the surface of the stone. Now that I know it''s there, I can see it with my naked eye if I get close to the stone and hold it exactly the right way. It''s small. I don''t think it''s on the surface, but I haven''t taken a needle to it.

Hmmm....
 

canuk-gal

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Date: 12/18/2006 7:17:48 PM
Author: starryeyed
Any thoughts on the fracture/cleavage thing? I''ll certainly mention it to the GG tomorrow....
HI:

Glad you are having it checked out. Let us know what GG says.....

cheers--Sharon
 

ladykemma

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surely looks like a tiffany pear from the fifties.... i like it! i would get it appraised, if all checks out, i would buy it.
 

starryeyed

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Ok Gang, so here's how the GG graded the diamond:

Pear-shape Brilliant
12.25 x 7.83 x 4.57 mm
2.79 carat (estimate)
Cut: Very Good
Color: H
Clairy: SI-1
Polish: Very Good
Symmetry: Good

He said the fracture/cleavage thing was a feather. It is inside the stone, under the prong. It is not "damage". It is possible that over time, this feather has propagated through the stone because it is a weak spot. He said there is no way of telling this, or if it will get worse. It is because of this inclusion and its location close to the surface that the stone is an SI-1. It is otherwise very clean.

I am going to post some photos, now that the sun is out. So what do you think? Should I keep the ring? Should I worry about the feather?

PearRingLight1.jpg
 

starryeyed

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By the way, I have a pink sweater on, so that''s the source of the pink you may be seeing in these photos. There is no floro.

PearRingLight2.jpg
 

starryeyed

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Another....

PearRingLight3.jpg
 

starryeyed

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Last one....

PearRingLight4.jpg
 

belle

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you know, i really wouldn''t worry about the feather too much. just insure it and enjoy it.
gosh it is a nice size!
3.gif
 

canuk-gal

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HI:

It sure is purdy! BTW, did you mention that you were having it reset into a pendant? Another variable to consider (potential "problem"?) given the inclusion.

cheers--Sharon
 

belle

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ooooh...more pics!
36.gif


do you have a hand shot or ten?
3.gif
 
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