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new tax plan

Hey Annette, nice to see you posting again, always find your posts well thought out and intellectually challenging for me. thank you.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...-pay-no-taxes-will-you-end-more-money-under-/

If I were in their shoes (low income people) I would not be pleased, but I do read a lot about taxes and the trump sham.. It's true a person who makes so little that he/she does not pay federal income tax may not notice anything. But if it means a family will have to pay more for health insurance I'm sad about it. If states must raise their taxes to meet commitments they have for schools, roads, etc to offset what the feds will do then low income people will be hurt.

I am fine with the republican cabal cutting entitlements as long as for EVERY dollar cut for medicaid, medicare and SSA we cut the military the same dollar.. 1$ cut for medicaid? 1$ cut for the military spending. I think this is just and fair.

Merry Christmas Annette! I too lost a bunch in the 2008 downturn, but got it all back and more.. hope you did too..

:)

smitcompton said:
Hi,

Yes, it is a tax cut mostly for the corporations. We, the US, have one of the highest tax rates and the new tax rate will make us more competitive in world markets. However, other countries are now considering lowering their tax rates to undercut the new US rate.

I do really have a question about the new tax system. When Romney was running, 47 % of tax payers didn't pay any taxes(remember Romney was overheard by open mike making a derogatory comment). I was very surprised to read this. A few years ago this topic came up and I researched it and something like 43 % did not pay taxes. I think it was Loves Vintage who also looked it up and said she found the figure was 39%. So why make such a fuss over the low benefit the lower income people will get when 39% of the lower end income population don't pay taxes?

Now, I'm retired and have seen my income cut more than 2/3 since the financial crisis. I don't itemize as my house is paid for, and most of my income was interest and dividends. I try to preserve capital, so I invest in the market to get a return , as savings acc't yield almost nothing. I have gone from paying a lot in taxes to paying almost nothing. Last yr I paid about $400.00 in taxes, on an income of 35,000.00. Why would I complain that I may only get a 60.00 benefit? I hardly pay any taxes.
Of course it makes sense that those who pay the most in taxes, which all of you want to call "the rich", get most of the benefit.

I worry that the over emphasis on the tax cut and (I'm throwing this in) and the belief that the Dems will win next time on this issue is misplaced. The poor don't pay taxes, those that earn the most should get the benefits.(IMO).

Annette
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81DE7E63-0A8A-413A-A2C2-BC40EE7E0C99.jpeg .
 
LLJsmom said:
Something my son studied recently. Downfall of the Weimar Republic and what precipitated the rise of a particular totalitarian. Seriously if I read this four years ago, I would have said it could never happen again. Little would I ever have guessed such a frightening parallel could be drawn now. Thank you @Arkteia. Your comment about preserving a middle class brought this to mind.

https://history.hanover.edu/courses/excerpts/111heil.html
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It is very important, and I believe that economic need almost always precedes political changes.

But there is one more factor which I had never considered. And recently I started thinking about it.

There is a certain percent of people - not small, perhaps 33%, maybe even more, I'd say, closer to 43% - who for some reason can not apply Occam's razor principle and is eager to believe in conspiracies and fall for complicated or irrational explanations. They have what I call innate paranoia.

It has nothing do do with mental illness, BTW, no, these people are quite normal, simply, as Obama has said, are "lacking critical thinking".

However, in all events than I could not explain - and coming from the Soviet Union, naturally, I could not explain how seemingly normal people believed in Stalin's theories of the "enemies of people" or "spies everywhere" to such a degree that they would inform on their neighbors - but we also can expand it to Hitler's Germany in which seemingly normal Germans could fall for this blabber about German Jews (mostly gentrified and converted) plotting the demise of their own country - I think this inner paranoia and falling for conspiracies played a role.

After 2016, having listened to some seemingly normal people falling for "Pedophile island" and "Spirit cooking" and "Hillary will take your guns", I am leaning towards the opinion that there is a very vulnerable group that can always affect the elections and other political events in a negative way, even in decent times.

Let us say, 30%/30% always vote for their party. And then, there is 40% of "swing votes". With certain bad luck, a charismatic figure that is able to play on this inner paranoia, plus the pressure of certain mass media outlets, one can persuade 25 % out of the 40% "swing votes" to vote for the same party. You get your 55%. Even 21% is enough. Even 20.5%.

There are, I believe, situations when "human factor" plays the role. BTW, 43.9% of people voted for Hitler in 1933, so maybe this is the approximate percent of people who have inner paranoia? To my knowledge, there have not been any studies performed in the society to figure out what percent of people really fall for conspiracies and complicated nonsense.

We need to work with our kids, because it is very difficult to change adults. I'd rather they do not grow up "Democrats" or "Republicans" but instead, develop the ability to think logically.
 
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Obviously you neglected to read all the layoffs, and to get a bonus at Walmart you need to have worked there 20years haha.

Dancing Fire said:
And a lot of Tiny Tim is getting a $1K bonus from his company.
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Hi Arkteia,,

I enjoyed reading your post and your analysis of voting populations. I dare say you are probably on track for some of that particular population. But, if I might, Id like to explore the other side of the question. Why is it that those people who continually bash Trump and want to believe that he has done illegal and criminal acts, and declare that he is not above the law , do not wish to hold illegal immigrants that have come into this country or, those that have been given temporary asylum and now demand they stay any accountability for breaking laws. Why is that segment of the population unable to say no to demands made by illegals. Sanctuary cities. Why is it there is no request too big for this group to decide to give away other peoples hard earned money and work. Are they so guilt struck . My theory is they feel superior in doing it.

Does this population give any thought to the social upheaval from the introduction of a large muslim population into a country that presecuted jews and blacks and all sorts yrs ago. Its a new world. People now come here with their own set of demands. Societies can come apart. Do we learn from Europe to limit inflows, no-- the do-gooders will bury us all. I would make my peace with the population you describe rather than make new problems.

It seems I must put in a disclaimer here. I am not a trump fan. I hope he is impeached, and quickly. But problems and questions of what is best for our country continue to plague us. I have trouble with both sides.

Annette
 
Tekate said:
Obviously you neglected to read all the layoffs, and to get a bonus at Walmart you need to have worked there 20years haha.
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There will always be layoffs somewhere. How many new job will this new tax bill add?. guess we'll find out in the next two yrs.
 
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Madam Bijoux said:
A $1K bonus might buy half of a new walking stick after taxes.
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When Tiny Tim receives a $1K bonus the left wingers...
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...
nuts.gif


When Tiny Tim receives a hourly raise the left wingers...
blah.gif
...
nuts.gif


/www.cnbc.com/2018/01/11/walmart-to-boost-starting-wage-give-employees-bonus-after-tax-bill.html
 
smitcompton said:
Hi Arkteia,,

I enjoyed reading your post and your analysis of voting populations. I dare say you are probably on track for some of that particular population. But, if I might, Id like to explore the other side of the question. Why is it that those people who continually bash Trump and want to believe that he has done illegal and criminal acts, and declare that he is not above the law , do not wish to hold illegal immigrants that have come into this country or, those that have been given temporary asylum and now demand they stay any accountability for breaking laws. Why is that segment of the population unable to say no to demands made by illegals. Sanctuary cities. Why is it there is no request too big for this group to decide to give away other peoples hard earned money and work. Are they so guilt struck . My theory is they feel superior in doing it.

Does this population give any thought to the social upheaval from the introduction of a large muslim population into a country that presecuted jews and blacks and all sorts yrs ago. Its a new world. People now come here with their own set of demands. Societies can come apart. Do we learn from Europe to limit inflows, no-- the do-gooders will bury us all. I would make my peace with the population you describe rather than make new problems.

It seems I must put in a disclaimer here. I am not a trump fan. I hope he is impeached, and quickly. But problems and questions of what is best for our country continue to plague us. I have trouble with both sides.

Annette
Click to expand...

Annette, hi,

I shall answer your post in pieces. But to be honest, much as I did not vote for Trump (i came to this country approximately at the time when he was going through divorce with Ivana, so I can not take him seriously), I think he is better than his VP.

The biggest liability of Trump I see in him being the political outsider - he has no team to rely on but his family. And because of this, the irony! - the man who promised to "drain the swamp" is now at the mercy of this swamp. It is during his time, driven by his natural instinct to cut costs, and their own inability to understand economy, the Congress and the Senate will be able to pass laws that they were never able to pass before. And these laws, acts and regulations will hurt us for the years to come.

This is my biggest concern re. Trump. As to the immigration - let me think of how to verbalize it better.
 
Hello Annette, I missed your question(s). Your question about immigration and Trump from my perspective as a center left voter.

Trump has been newspaper fodder for over 40 years in NYC, I read about him all my life, so I know what a horrible person he is. The show, apprentice, to me was just humiliating and Trump came across as a malignant sociopath in my opinion. Now sociopath's often are leaders, not always malignant ones tho.. those are the scary ones.

Dreamer qualifications:

To qualify for the DACA program, applicants must meet the following criteria:

  • Have arrived in the United States prior to age 16
  • Have continuously resided in the United States without legal status since June 15, 2007
  • Be less than age 31 as of June 15, 2012 and at least age 15 at application (unauthorized immigrants under 15 but in removal proceedings are also eligible to apply)
  • Be currently enrolled in school, have graduated high school or obtained a general development certificate (GED), or be an honorably discharged veteran
  • Have not been convicted of a felony or multiple or serious misdemeanors and not pose a threat to national security or public safety
As a center left person I feel that these people 'feel American' they came at young age(s) and do not identify with their birth country. I think "what if my mom brought me here when I was 10 and I'm 30 now, I speak only English, I identify as an American?" I would be very worried. America needs immigrants, American is known for its immigrant population, did ANY of our ancestors come here that were wealthy and lived a good life in Ireland or Germany or Italy or Poland? etc.. no they came here for opportunity. When the recession hit, people who loved their children came here to have a better life for their child(ren), being a dreamer requires a person to be a good member of society. I love my sons and would have crawled across the border to give them opportunity. I know that our immigrant ancestors came here legally, but also America was a lot more open then, a lot less people so it was much easier to get in. I cannot fault a person for struggling to give their family a better life. Dreamers pay taxes.

Sanctuary Cities

I live near a sanctuary city, Portland Maine, Portland is a city with a declining population for a time, immigrants took jobs that needed filling and a lot of cities believe in helping others, they live in a community environment. I'm not sure what you mean by 'demands of the immigrants' do you mean religious? the only demand I know of here with our influx of African muslims is that they be allowed to wear their hijab and it was not a demand, more of a religious thing and people seem to understand that, like nuns and reverends.. I can understand your statements though because I do not support one penny of my tax dollars to go to religious schools of any kind, nor do I support my dollars going to charter schools, for several reasons on both, so I get what you are saying. 78% of dreamers are Mexican, so the muslims aren't really included anyway, they are refugees from murderous regimes, Sunni vs Shiite, I don't think many Muslims are part of the Dreamer group. I'm not sure where you get the social upheavel and discrimination of jews and blacks.. do mean here in America? that is still going on in my opinion.

I want to give away my hard earned money because I feel that many of the refugees will be killed otherwise, in Africa and in the Middle East. We have had middle eastern people come to America before, a large infux of Lebanese and Turkish in my lifetime. The bottom line is, I feel this country still has room, we have always taken the tired, poor etc and some of these people are running for their lives and some back in the mid 2000s came because of the recession.






smitcompton said:
Hi Arkteia,,

I enjoyed reading your post and your analysis of voting populations. I dare say you are probably on track for some of that particular population. But, if I might, Id like to explore the other side of the question. Why is it that those people who continually bash Trump and want to believe that he has done illegal and criminal acts, and declare that he is not above the law , do not wish to hold illegal immigrants that have come into this country or, those that have been given temporary asylum and now demand they stay any accountability for breaking laws. Why is that segment of the population unable to say no to demands made by illegals. Sanctuary cities. Why is it there is no request too big for this group to decide to give away other peoples hard earned money and work. Are they so guilt struck . My theory is they feel superior in doing it.

Does this population give any thought to the social upheaval from the introduction of a large muslim population into a country that presecuted jews and blacks and all sorts yrs ago. Its a new world. People now come here with their own set of demands. Societies can come apart. Do we learn from Europe to limit inflows, no-- the do-gooders will bury us all. I would make my peace with the population you describe rather than make new problems.

It seems I must put in a disclaimer here. I am not a trump fan. I hope he is impeached, and quickly. But problems and questions of what is best for our country continue to plague us. I have trouble with both sides.

Annette
Click to expand...
 
smitcompton said:
Hi Arkteia,,

I enjoyed reading your post and your analysis of voting populations. I dare say you are probably on track for some of that particular population. But, if I might, Id like to explore the other side of the question. Why is it that those people who continually bash Trump and want to believe that he has done illegal and criminal acts, and declare that he is not above the law , do not wish to hold illegal immigrants that have come into this country or, those that have been given temporary asylum and now demand they stay any accountability for breaking laws. Why is that segment of the population unable to say no to demands made by illegals. Sanctuary cities. Why is it there is no request too big for this group to decide to give away other peoples hard earned money and work. Are they so guilt struck . My theory is they feel superior in doing it.

Does this population give any thought to the social upheaval from the introduction of a large muslim population into a country that presecuted jews and blacks and all sorts yrs ago. Its a new world. People now come here with their own set of demands. Societies can come apart. Do we learn from Europe to limit inflows, no-- the do-gooders will bury us all. I would make my peace with the population you describe rather than make new problems.

It seems I must put in a disclaimer here. I am not a trump fan. I hope he is impeached, and quickly. But problems and questions of what is best for our country continue to plague us. I have trouble with both sides.

Annette
Click to expand...

Now about immigration.

Let us look at the problem of immigration in general. DACA is only the tip of the iceberg. And the real problem is far deeper, it is globalization, dwindling resources, changing climate and unbelievable size of the human mass.

America always accepted immigrants. Did it always like who it accepted? No, they might have not even liked the Germans who (like Trump's grandfather) migrated because of economic hardship. They surely did not like the Italians who came; the Catholics (even JFK had some problem with own Catholicism during the election); much less the Jews who came from the Russian empire. But - people needed to move, for economic or political reasons, and US needed working hands; and also, many immigrants, while poor, were literate.

The US never got the bottom of the group. You can look at any ethnicity, be it Europeans or Indians, people who come here are definitely more educated. Europe, especially GB and France has to deal with postcolonial problems, but US is not pressured to accept from former colonies - so it always took the best.

The same applies to the countries that Trump called the word that even straightforward Russians are hesitant to translate verbally. The Africans who come here are not the poorest ones - the poorest ones would not have the money for the ticket. Our immigration is not European one, we never had their problems, I travel a lot, I can compare.

But in the future we all might foresee problems related to mass migration to escape hunger or water scarcity.

One way to respond is the German one. Germany, driven by massive historic guilt (and even more so, by at least two generations of people it taught that history should never repeat itself), opens its borders. Trying to accommodate refugees, people whose life might be in danger. And because powerful German economy is the backbone of the EU, the rest of the EU, unwillingly, tags along.

The other apporach is the Trump's one. Seal all illuminators, all doors, build the wall, we barely have enough to survive on our own. This is how I view his attitude to immigration in general. Not as much racism as utilitarianism (the wall is a separate issue, suffice it to say that financial part of its construction needs to be very tightly monitored).

I am not quite sure that the German way is right. The do have problems. The problem with Trump's way is that we, the US, might survive, but things might hit us, as well as any other country. Dwindling water resources in California, treacherous seismogenic situation on the West Coast, who knows what? It seems that the climate is really changing, and potentially, any place on earth might become uninhabitable.

Who will then accept us as immigrants if we have so amply demonstrated our own egotism?

As to DACA - you can not compare the President to the Dreamers. The President, as the Caesar's wife, should be above reproach. Our is anything but...
 
P.S. About Trumphole countries.

Do you know how many times, here, in the US, I came across Africans who got education in Moscow, at the University named after Patrice Lumumba? Super good education, btw. Americans don't talk to these people, they don't know it, I converse with these Africans because many still remember Russian. You guys don't really know how many US immigrants from Africa got first-class education. Just because they drive taxicabs here does not mean they are uneducated. Not at all.
 
I would rather see my tax $ spent on food for families than on slush funds to pay off victims of Congress members.
 
Madam Bijoux said:
I would rather see my tax $ spent on food for families than on slush funds to pay off victims of Congress members.
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We can both agree on that statement.
 
Hi,

Sorry I didn't come back till now. Sometimes I just can't talk about politics anymore for a while.
Tekate-- You're really so nice and smart. I understand all your points and do agree with many(not sanctuary cities). Yes, you are left of center, not as left as many on here, and my real concern is that if the topics for the next election remain immigration, LGBTG, and abortion, the democrats will not win.

The new proposal of the Pres would satisfy me. Give the dreamers a pathway to citizenship. Parents who brought their children here are the ones responsible for their plight, not the Gov't. He wants family chains stopped, and no lottery. This does not mean we are longer going to accept immigrants, but the standard will be different. We have changed immigration rules before. Canada has strict immigrations laws as does Australia, and ours aren't any where near theirs. The case against amnesty has already been proved. Three million during Reagan. Last Sunday on Meet the Press this was stated. Six million illegal immigrants here in 2006. The man said 14 million today. Even if its 11 million, as I thought you can see that amnesty didn't work. OK, I concede we can't remove them in any reasonable way. Everyone says its impossible. But(here is my kicker) please don't make this a moral issue. This is a practical issue. I ask that the issue be framed as a practical one and if some disagree they are not be called hate mongers.

Annette
 
Hi Arkteia,

I really love immigrants. MY parents were immigrants, I live in a different culture in a neighborhood of musllms, Hindus and a few whites. But I do not wish to be overwhelmed by large influxes of clashing cultures that are so different we don't have time to absorb one another.
It is one thing to assist others by temporarily accepting them to avoid a crisis, but now they want to stay, and the left is up in arms again. No, if they agreed to leave when the crisis is over they should go. Do you know Canada has already announced to this group that they better not come to Canada. They are not welcome there.
We must stand up for ourselves. We are decent people and try to help others. We must not let the far left decide our future.

Annette
 
Annette for Prez. in 2020!...:clap::dance:
 
@smitcompton Hi..

You are a gem of girl, I am only left a bit from center. I would have voted for Bernie but I wasn't in favor of his platform..

Don't ever leave, I think you are a bit right of center and I miss when you don't post and you are a beacon of intelligence and honesty.

I haven't formed a cognitive thought on immigration, but the good DACA people should stay and I understand about the chain thing.. I agree we can't open our borders all the time anytim, in actuality that was one of the reasons why England voted for Brexit.

Peace to you and your comments are important to me.. and of course our love of glittering jewelry helps too.



smitcompton said:
Hi,

Sorry I didn't come back till now. Sometimes I just can't talk about politics anymore for a while.
Tekate-- You're really so nice and smart. I understand all your points and do agree with many(not sanctuary cities). Yes, you are left of center, not as left as many on here, and my real concern is that if the topics for the next election remain immigration, LGBTG, and abortion, the democrats will not win.

The new proposal of the Pres would satisfy me. Give the dreamers a pathway to citizenship. Parents who brought their children here are the ones responsible for their plight, not the Gov't. He wants family chains stopped, and no lottery. This does not mean we are longer going to accept immigrants, but the standard will be different. We have changed immigration rules before. Canada has strict immigrations laws as does Australia, and ours aren't any where near theirs. The case against amnesty has already been proved. Three million during Reagan. Last Sunday on Meet the Press this was stated. Six million illegal immigrants here in 2006. The man said 14 million today. Even if its 11 million, as I thought you can see that amnesty didn't work. OK, I concede we can't remove them in any reasonable way. Everyone says its impossible. But(here is my kicker) please don't make this a moral issue. This is a practical issue. I ask that the issue be framed as a practical one and if some disagree they are not be called hate mongers.

Annette
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Tekate said:
@smitcompton Hi..

Don't ever leave, I think you are a bit right of center and I miss when you don't post and you are a beacon of intelligence and honesty.
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Right wingers don't have the guts to post their opinions here...:lol:
 
I care about my money, trumpski was all charm about the stock market. Inflation sucks, don't want too much of it, because wages won't go up

Tekate said:
I will NEVER give Dimbart one hit. never. ever. ever.
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