New Age/Natural/Holistic Healing: Discuss!

[iLander]

My best friend is like this. She has never explored energies the way I have but she gets very specific and sometimes rattling inuitions about people based on energy alone. She can read people as clearly as you or I could read a magazine. Do you ever see colors around people iLander?

No, I can't read auras at all. I knew a lady once that read mine and declared it was golden and that is supposed to be good. Considering I was in seventh grade, I found it very odd, and I still take it with a grain of salt. I think some people really can do it, though.

I just get feelings about people, and it's not like I know them or speak to them. They can just pass by, but they have to be within 3 feet of me. It doesn't happen often, maybe 1-2 times a year, and quite unexpectedly. I'll be talking to someone else or doing something else, and it'll hit me. Yeah, pretty weird.

I've been getting a "feeling" about this one ruby I have, I posted about it in CS, because I find it disconcerting. I really don't want to start getting vibes off inanimate objects, it's starting to get out of hand. Kinda want to just be oblivious, it's easier.

 

[iLander]

I think of myself as an existential Taoist, iLander.
when I get acupuncture it is like getting "plugged in".
in the old movies phone operators at switchboards are manually plugging callers into lines.......
that is my experience of acupuncture: as each needle is placed it is a connection and I actually experience them talking to each other.
I LOVE it!

I don't know what an existential Taoist is, Mozo . . . ?

I read the Tao Te Ching by Lao Tsu when I'm needed a lift, or an answer, and it's my life philosophy. Is that what you mean?

I haven't tried acupuncture, but that sounds really good, Mozo, I might have to give that a try someday.

 

[iLander]

I live and breathe science. I love it! I love peer reviewed research and vaccinations, and despise fear mongering. The doctor who inspired this project was one of the pioneers of her field, studying Autism decades ago when no one knew what it was. She was a personal mentor who opened my eyes to how truly limitless medicine can be. Modern medicine mixed with the holisitc approach has been a major revelation to me.

Since people have complained that no one ever posts topics of interest to PS anymore, I thought there was interest. I was wrong. No harm done.

Elliot86, I should have posted this earlier; ignore Kenny. He's anti-religion and anti-anything-really-interesting and very noisy about it. Don't let him dissuade you from posting what you want, we mostly ignore him. When we can.

 

[OreoRosies86]

Kenny doesn't bother me. He's not the first person to laugh at me, he certainly won't be the last. I laugh at myself daily! The comments which hold the most weight always come from a place of respect.

 

[arkieb1]

I'm like Ilander I read people or people give off energy that I can read as well.... *sigh* I sense things about people, places and things as well. Although I think we have different skills or ways the messages get to us. It's actually very funny because I have a very skeptical and logical personality.

 

[ksinger]

OK, this is still THE funniest skit I've ever seen on alternative medicine.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMGIbOGu8q0&ytsession=UGhTukw0MmoGlNND_C9SWh-Zo4YjeUFASKlFxAeInhHLRQ8mhxMDp68k_Gu8VNHsn2TGevx3cyLLGpJnbxYb9En4XnD7OdzXhCcprNmVkSWPxXjBq3mPpAHk0bg2U9XGczSy9P43XStivM7oqZ0WXCKADUZXKJH3_fFSdEdeGMhzHbda5yAPDZF_O4HtWRD0MrJyiU-bF-GmRYz2Tx6g4_lWR9RFY29UElQDtq8eA_dgQxyDLxhV5ghT5YJ8sm1lYzN-EVqr4cZQmyHkYcoLVfiqxDtAp7wFLXXzPUhkj3zXRaxOIQ2d1U8SeKWbSig-t7J0aWw8ras

And no, I'm not a fan, as a rule. However, my mother tried homeopathy during the course of her invariably fatal condition, and there was nary a disparaging peep from me. Who am I to dash the hopes of the terminal. I'm not that cruel. But ALS was not going to respond very well to homeopathy, or the clay she tried to draw out the heavy metals, or the light therapy she tried too. None of it worked or even slowed it down.

So yeah, except for the way it can make a person FEEL like they have some control, but certainly not from anything approaching empircal, not a fan.

 

[OreoRosies86]

I'm certainly not implying that those who are suffering from mild or grave medical conditions should abandon their treatment for homeopathy as Steve Jobs did when he was diagnosed with cancer.

This is a lifestyle, or something you become atuned to. Something you grow with and learn from. Not a last ditch effort when you're in the terminal stages of an illness. You're more likely to have success in warding off illness with a long term pattern of low stress, clean eating, and plenty of rest. But anyone who practices Reiki, a natural healer, or medical doctor would say the same thing.

 

[Lady_Disdain]

I am very skeptical about homeopathy. I have seen nothing to show that it works, other than as a placebo. However, I avoided getting my tonsils removed because of it. I had a lot of tonsil problems as a child and a "cut it out" pediatrician who wanted nothing more than to operate. My mother was not happy with the idea of operating on her 6 year old child and potentially opening the way for other throat problems. She ended up taking me to a homeopath and I got to take little sugar pills and alcohol drops for many years. In the end, I stopped having tonsil infections.

Since this is the sort of thing many children grow out of, I believe the homeopathy just bought me time to develop while giving my mother a feeling that she was doing something about it. Nothing like getting a child to take drops 3 times a day to really feel you are working on curing! If I hadn't been taking them, the results would have been just the same but with a more worried mom.

 

[OreoRosies86]

Mother's Sun Deodorant: Nothing Works!
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=v7Z2BWjpZSo

 

[smitcompton]

Hi,

Much of what Marlow and Kenny say is not scientific, is in fact scientific. The placebo effect (scientific) is very important in the concept of the mind-body connection. The first older concept from the monks is the mediation process, whereby they are able to reduce their blood pressure from just meditating. This was called transandental meditation, which swept the country in the 70's and people used something called the relaxation response to give their bodies and mind a rest and recharge. Not only has this been proved, this is now mainstreamed into cancer hospitals and for treatment options along with other standard treatments.

Studies have shown, through MRI's that the body reacts to images, not only those in actuality, but those that are imagined by the mind.
So, Carl and Stephanie Simonton , an oncologist, and psychologist began to treat his cancer patients in what is now commonly called guided imagery and extended the life of those patient by over a yr(terminal cases). Their published results and Robert Bensens, "The relaxation Response" was used as the basis for for a Program in Conn-the first of its kind- to treat terminal patients with guided imagery
and other psychological exercises. (Dr. Bernie Seigal-Conn. General)

Your mind and body work with what you believe. Your healing may come by a different thought process than some else. So, religion, can play a big part in ones persons mind, and getting coffee enemas can effect change in someones else. Its an amazing discovery. Unfortunately, it is most effective in early stages of illness.

I can't answer for crystals, but when I was ill, I received one from a woman. I always felt good that she thought of me.

Some people have ESP. My brother has some. Alas, I don't. I believe in Miracles even as an atheist.

 

[OreoRosies86]

Hi,

Much of what Marlow and Kenny say is not scientific, is in fact scientific. The placebo effect (scientific) is very important in the concept of the mind-body connection. The first older concept from the monks is the mediation process, whereby they are able to reduce their blood pressure from just meditating. This was called transandental meditation, which swept the country in the 70's and people used something called the relaxation response to give their bodies and mind a rest and recharge. Not only has this been proved, this is now mainstreamed into cancer hospitals and for treatment options along with other standard treatments.

Studies have shown, through MRI's that the body reacts to images, not only those in actuality, but those that are imagined by the mind.
So, Carl and Stephanie Simonton , an oncologist, and psychologist began to treat his cancer patients in what is now commonly called guided imagery and extended the life of those patient by over a yr(terminal cases). Their published results and Robert Bensens, "The relaxation Response" was used as the basis for for a Program in Conn-the first of its kind- to treat terminal patients with guided imagery
and other psychological exercises. (Dr. Bernie Seigal-Conn. General)

Your mind and body work with what you believe. Your healing may come by a different thought process than some else. So, religion, can play a big part in ones persons mind, and getting coffee enemas can effect change in someones else. Its an amazing discovery. Unfortunately, it is most effective in early stages of illness.

I can't answer for crystals, but when I was ill, I received one from a woman. I always felt good that she thought of me.

Some people have ESP. My brother has some. Alas, I don't. I believe in Miracles even as an atheist.

This post blew me away

 

[JaneSmith]

I think that there are several things I need to talk about in regards to this topic. I'll try for brevity.

An important thing to realise is that many things that people try to group in as alt med are in fact parts of conventional evidence and/or science based modern medicine. Nutrition, excercise, relaxation, these are not alt med, and these things are presented as such as part of bait and switch marketing as well as alt med wanting to point to some parts of itself that actually work.
The things that are truly alt med: homeopathy, reiki, subluxion-based chiropractic, acupuncture, aura reading, most herbals, chakra realignments, past-life regressions, and so on.
As for herbal remedies, finding actual medicines from plants, animals, and fungi is an entirely science-based endeavour called pharmocognosy. Relying on intuition, revelation, and ancient lore is no way to dose oneself.

Homeopathy is based on the idea that taking something that, in larger amounts, causes the same symptoms as the illness you are wanting to treat (sympathetic magic), and diluting it multiple times whilst shaking it will give an entirely effective medicine. Unfortunately you run up against large swaths of maths and science that call BS on this.
There is a thing called Avogadro's number which is how you can calculate how many molecules of a substance are present in one mole of the substance. By the time we get to a 11C dilution, the mathematical probability that there is even one molecule of the solute is practically zero. By then, you are simply rinsing the cup out over and over again.
In fact, by the time you get to a 30C dilution, you are looking at one molecule in a sphere of water the size of Earth's orbit around the sun.
As for water having memory, I sure hope that it forgets all the times it's been poop.
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Homeopathy

Acupuncture is not as ancient as is commonly thought. In fact, it used to be similar to plain old blood-letting, with a lot of astrology, was not common, and was banned in the 19th century. In the 1930's a doctor revived it and changed it completely by moving the acupuncture points away from the blood vessels and towards the nerves, and changed to the thin needles we see today.
Then, during Mao's reign, acupuncture and other folk remedies were spread by peasant doctors who were given a six month medical training in these as well as basic care, sanitation, and immunizations, and sent forth to rural China as the only healthcare system of the time. Even though Mao did not believe the traditional Chinese medicine worked, it fitted nicely with the party line that China is awesome.
http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/medical_examiner/2013/10/traditional_chinese_medicine_origins_mao_invented_it_but_didn_t_believe.single.html
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/astrology-with-needles/

Reiki is just faith healing wrapped up in eastern religious mysticism. The founder, Usui, who had spent a lot of his life studying various religions, went off and meditated and fasted until he had a hallucination about healing people with unseen energy, and the symbols to help.
There is no evidence that any such energy exists, but saying that to people who believe it is like trying to tell the pope that there is no god. Which is funny, because the US Conference of Catholic Bishops says that reiki is basically a sin. http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2011/03/18/when-christianity-battles-reiki/
Also, like homeopathy and acupuncture, it does not work better than placebo in any well-designed controlled trial. Heck, even a nine year old girl designed an experiment that showed that therapeutic touch doesn't work. http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=187390

Ah placebos, one of the most misunderstood things by many.
If something does not work better than placebo, it means it doesn't work at all, because a placebo is nothing. It is inert, a sham.

First, for the most part, we all more or less agreed that the term “placebo effect” is a misnomer and somewhat deceptive because it implies that there is a true physiologic effect caused by an inert intervention.
“Placebo response” or “placebo responses” seemed to us a better term because what we are observing with a placebo is in reality a patient’s subjective response to thinking that he is having something active done. In general, we do not see placebo responses resulting improvement in objective outcomes; i.e., prolonged survival in cancer.
The relative contributions of components of this response, be they expectancy effects (if you expect to feel better you likely will feel better), conditioning, or one that is frequently dismissed or downplayed, namely artifacts of the design of randomized clinical trials and even subtle (or even not-so-subtle) biases in trial design. This issue of placebo responses being observed only in subjective patient-reported clinical outcomes (pain, anxiety, and the like) and not in objectively measured outcomes is an important one, and it is one that goes to the heart of the NEJM study ...

This study basically compared four different interventions:
Treatment with Albuterol.
Sham acupuncture using the classic retractable needle (note that this was only single-blinded).
Placebo inhaler.
No treatment at all.

Here are the results. It turns out that lots of people said they felt better.

But only the ones who got actual medicine had improved lung function.

And then there's this:

Basically, it’s a look at how many patients responded objectively to treatment, as defined by an improvement in FEV1 of 12% or more, at each of the three sessions they did. The results and pattern are striking.
Notice that, as expected, the vast majority of the patients responded at each session to the albuterol (3/3 sessions). In contrast, only 3% of patients responded 3/3 times to placebo, sham acupuncture, or no treatment. In fact, what’s striking is how similar the three graphs look and how different they look from the graph of patient responses to albuterol. Again, the message is very clear: Real medicine produces real, objectively measurable changes in physiology towards a more normally functioning state. Placebo medicine does not. In any rational, science-based discussion, this would be the end of the story. Placebos don’t work in asthma.

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/spin-city-placebos-and-asthma/
http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa1103319
Anyone can see that feeling better but still having decreased lung function is a dangerous thing. Walking around with little reserve can mean a life-threatening asthma attack is easily triggered.

Some answers to common questions about science and alt med: http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/answering-our-critics-part-1-of-2/

Common cognitive biases: http://io9.com/5974468/the-most-common-cognitive-biases-that-prevent-you-from-being-rational

Vast swaths of science would have to be overturned for much of alt med to work as stated, and extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence (thanks Carl Sagan), also, the laws underlying the physics of everyday life are completely understood: http://www.preposterousuniverse.com/blog/2010/09/23/the-laws-underlying-the-physics-of-everyday-life-are-completely-understood/
Seriously. http://www.preposterousuniverse.com/blog/2010/09/29/seriously-the-laws-underlying-the-physics-of-everyday-life-really-are-completely-understood/


And for something funny to finish off with, Dara O'Briain on alt med. NSFW! http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=uDYba0m6ztE

 

[JaneSmith]

How could I neglect this? This isn't specific to homeopathy, but it's still funny.


http://theoatmeal.com/comics/water

 

[OreoRosies86]

I have to wonder if children and animals who show a positive response to this kind of work (or sham as you called it) are also displaying "placebo effect." Considering they aren't mentally willing a particular outcome.

Anyway, I'll keep reading but will no longer be participating in this discussion.

 

[ksinger]

I think that there are several things I need to talk about in regards to this topic. I'll try for brevity.
.
.
.
And for something funny to finish off with, Dara O'Briain on alt med. NSFW! http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=uDYba0m6ztE

OK, THAT is freaking hilarious! (I hope you watched mine too, although I suspect you may have already seen it.) And that whole post was great.

And...in gereral? Like for a while now? I think I may have developed a serious post-crush on you. I do so wish I could post like that.

Yesterday I was out looking up stuff on placebo "response" and checking to see if it did more than make you feel better momentarily, if it actually affected outcomes (cancer, etc), but got sidetracked so never got back to it. Thanks for going that extra mile or 6. I particularly liked the link to the New England Journal of Medicine - you feel better, but you're really not. Patients' self-reports can be unreliable. Hmm. Who knew? I have to say though, in my mom's case (ALS), since there is nothing that will actually make you better, I had zero problem with her coasting on whatever placebo effect she could get - although I was very flaming-sword-at-the-gates for anything suggested that might have drained her financially. I don't think she had much false hope for a cure, but it made her better at that moment to DO something, and the quality of our moments does matter after all, regardless of the ultimate outcome, which for all of us is death.

 

[chemgirl]

JaneSmith: you're saying exactly what I think on the subject in a far more compelling way than I would.

I believe in natural remedies for certain illnesses and general wellness, but not the rest of it. I also think natural remedies have limitations. For example I will gargle with oregano oil for a sore throat, but take antibiotics when I had an ulcer. I have a rare form of colitis that I'm keeping under control after an elimination diet, probiotics, and use of certain supplements that help with inflammatory response. My view is if you have a chronic condition that's not curable, why not give natural alternatives a try?

To me this is different than homeopathic or other alternative medicines because many natural remedies can be backed by solid chemistry. I can look up a supplement and see the pathway it acts on.

There is a major issue at our local children's hospital where a few parents have pulled their children from chemo to pursue alternative treatments. These cases have made the news because their odds of survival go from 90% or more to essentially zero. As far as I'm concerned the parents, as well as the alternative practitioners who encourage these people to abandon life saving treatment should be charged with criminal negligence causing death. This is one of those things that really gets to me. Its preying on the hopes of desperate people for monetary gain.

 

[ksinger]

I have to wonder if children and animals who show a positive response to this kind of work (or sham as you called it) are also displaying "placebo effect." Considering they aren't mentally willing a particular outcome.

Anyway, I'll keep reading but will no longer be participating in this discussion.

I know you say you're gone, but by all means, post some links to studies about children and animals (and energy work? homeopathy?). But be warned, this HAS been done before on PS - where someone makes medical claims and posts links to back them - and the contingent of doctors/public health folks/immunologists here (there used to be quite a few) weighed in on the quality of the sources. They tend to be kind of relentless when it comes to source quality (somewhat TIC: ie, not Jenny McCarthy OR Lydia Pinkham) and what is and is not, good research.

 

[chrono]

Elliott,
I'm sorry to see you leave. Since you started this thread with the intent of discussion, I was hoping to see participation from people on both sides of the fence. I am also a very fact based person and would like to see studies backing up the effectiveness of such treatment.

 

[OreoRosies86]

I have to wonder if children and animals who show a positive response to this kind of work (or sham as you called it) are also displaying "placebo effect." Considering they aren't mentally willing a particular outcome.

Anyway, I'll keep reading but will no longer be participating in this discussion.

I know you say you're gone, but by all means, post some links to studies about children and animals (and energy work? homeopathy?). But be warned, this HAS been done before on PS - where someone makes medical claims and posts links to back them - and the contingent of doctors/public health folks/immunologists here (there used to be quite a few) weighed in on the quality of the sources. They tend to be kind of relentless when it comes to source quality (somewhat TIC: ie, not Jenny McCarthy OR Lydia Pinkham) and what is and is not, good research.

I don't believe I have made any medical claims, unless you consider "I've seen this work done and I believe it can help" (and that I am currently in the midst of documenting those experiences) medical claims. I am not a doctor. I am a nobody who happens to be interested in energy work. I have no faith in god so that doesn't factor into my interest. I am aware, as you so kindly reminded me, that when threads become heated newer members are often warned that former OPs who dared to tread similar territory had their asses handed to them. Snickering was to be expected, as were the Jenny McCarthy comparisons (curse that woman!). Sometimes though, it becomes like killing a housefly with an A-K 47

For now I am content to absorb and appreciate what has been left here or will be written here. And I do sincerely mean absorb, learn, listen, and appreciate. If there is anything I appreciate it is a well written, thoughtful response when someone has put themselves out there for a discussion.

And I do love The Oatmeal

 

[OreoRosies86]

Elliott,
I'm sorry to see you leave. Since you started this thread with the intent of discussion, I was hoping to see participation from people on both sides of the fence. I am also a very fact based person and would like to see studies backing up the effectiveness of such treatment.

I am a fact based person too. And a huge skeptic. I hope to soon bring a new chapter forward under the guide and care of people far more qualified than I (and not just here on PS for rah-rahs from internet buddies). If it turns out it was nothing all along, at least I have met the people I have along the way.

 

[ksinger]

I have to wonder if children and animals who show a positive response to this kind of work (or sham as you called it) are also displaying "placebo effect." Considering they aren't mentally willing a particular outcome.

Anyway, I'll keep reading but will no longer be participating in this discussion.

I know you say you're gone, but by all means, post some links to studies about children and animals (and energy work? homeopathy?). But be warned, this HAS been done before on PS - where someone makes medical claims and posts links to back them - and the contingent of doctors/public health folks/immunologists here (there used to be quite a few) weighed in on the quality of the sources. They tend to be kind of relentless when it comes to source quality (somewhat TIC: ie, not Jenny McCarthy OR Lydia Pinkham) and what is and is not, good research.

I don't believe I have made any medical claims, unless you consider "I've seen this work done and I believe it can help" (and that I am currently in the midst of documenting those experiences) medical claims. I am not a doctor. I am a nobody who happens to be interested in energy work. I have no faith in god so that doesn't factor into my interest. I am aware, as you so kindly reminded me, that when threads become heated newer members are often warned that former OPs who dared to tread similar territory had their asses handed to them. Snickering was to be expected, as were the Jenny McCarthy comparisons (curse that woman!). Sometimes though, it becomes like killing a housefly with an A-K 47

For now I am content to absorb and appreciate what has been left here or will be written here. And I do sincerely mean absorb, learn, listen, and appreciate. If there is anything I appreciate it is a well written, thoughtful response when someone has put themselves out there for a discussion.

And I do love The Oatmeal

Elliot, I was not in any way trying to be mean, or to highlight how long I've been here. I'm genuinely interested in actual studies supporting efficacy of alternative therapies. Like what exactly is being defined as "a positive response" (since apparently that is not a "medical claim"), or what is the proposed mechanism whereby energy is moved? How is that energy measured?

It's been my experience here on PS (and I guess I must apologize for really having been here for awhile and actually remembering similar threads. Apparently any reference to such is poor taste nowadays) and in real life though, that when asked to provide proofs/explanations, and when others with real expertise (there's that expertise thing again) then question or refute said sources or reasoning - often quite kindly and with zero snark - people either get defensive and/or leave the discussion. As for my real life experiences of such reaction, well, show even the least bit of skepticism about anything "natural" or alternative (muscle testing being a classic) and my own family gets too angry/defensive to even talk to. So we don't. I politely self-censor my skepticism in the name of family tranquility and they get to gush unhindered about the miracle substance dujour.

Bottom line, in spite of how mean you may perceive me to be, when my Reiki master friend offers to work on me, or someone offers to pray for me, (yes, adherents of alternative therapies and the religious DO actually claim long friendship with me) I graciously accept. It is a compliment of the highest order that my friends love me enough to want to help, it makes them feel good to try to help, and I feel it can do me no harm. Ideally, my belief or lack of, should not affect whether either of those will work - they should just...work, should they not? However, there is absolutely no way for either of us to tell if any improvement (self-report of which can be subjective in the extreme) I have is due to what they do, or time, or the humidity that day. And therein lies the major problem I have with it all. It's just too dang subjective.

 

[Lady_Disdain]

Bottom line, in spite of how mean you may perceive me to be, when my Reiki master friend offers to work on me, or someone offers to pray for me, (yes, adherents of alternative therapies and the religious DO actually claim long friendship with me) I graciously accept. It is a compliment of the highest order that my friends love me enough to want to help, it makes them feel good to try to help, and I feel it can do me no harm. Ideally, my belief or lack of, should not affect whether either of those will work - they should just...work, should they not? However, there is absolutely no way for either of us to tell if any improvement (self-report of which can be subjective in the extreme) I have is due to what they do, or time, or the humidity that day. And therein lies the major problem I have with it all. It's just too dang subjective.

Yes! No matter my personal views, I see this as people caring. Caring people don't deserve to be slammed. My religious family members pray for my well being. It does me no harm in the worst case scenario, it brings them peace. It would be very ungracious of me to say "don't bother with that mumbo-jumbo." And, to be honest, it does do me good. It helps me feel loved and cared for, just like a nice card in the mail. a cute kitten video sent to me when I need to be cheered or a mug of tea when I need a talk.

 

[ericad]

We're super into it and have had great results from a naturopathic approach, with pharmaceutical intervention where naturopathy fails, or obviously for urgent medical needs. I view naturopathy as a supplement - I think the right approach to health is prevention and a well rounded application of all that is available to us.

Example: DD had terrible hay fever when she was little. We treated her with stinging nettle drops (not homeopathic, just regular stinging nettle drops) and had fantastic results! Daily doses for a few weeks at the beginning of the season, and she has been allergy-free for years. We have repeated this every season with the exception of this past summer because I slacked off and thought that maybe she just outgrew the allergies and that the nettle wasn't really even doing anything. Her allergies came back with a vengeance! Poor thing was scratching at her throat and her eyes were so red and runny. We did the nettle again, and it helped, but took a few weeks so during that time we had to supplement with children's Claritin. But just a few times to get her through the worst of it. I'll never deviate from the nettle again - it works for her. Will it work for everyone? No. Is it worth a shot? YES! Is it better for you than taking pills? HELL YES!

This is what we do for most mild problems - start with a naturopathic approach to prevent, then treat with traditional drugs and medicine as needed. We also eat mostly organic, buy local raw organic milk, raise our own chickens (DD's a vegetarian, so eggs and dairy are her only animal proteins), are big into probiotics (we've been SOOOOOO much healthier since doing that!) and iodine supplementation, among myriad other things.

I'm a believer.

ETA - regarding homeopathy, I've tried it and it generally doesn't work for me BUT! And it's a big BUT(t) *TMI ALERT* Hyland's Homeopathic Hemorrhoid treatment freaking WORKS. Saved me after delivering my daughter, and boy was I suffering! I've heard from friends that it worked well for them too.

But, alas, other Hyland's homeopathic products were not effective, though DD (who is an athlete) swears by Arnica Gel of any kind. She takes it with her everywhere.

 

[smitcompton]

Hi,

Before scientific data can be collected, either a theory or observation occurs. So, to me I try to keep an open mind regarding new ideas. After all Charles Darwin observed and look how long its taken for some to believe, even after the data. And data points change as we know more.

A small shift in the acupuncture story as to where needles are placed changes that story to one that heals and is accepted. The children that Eliot is working with may benefit from her efforts even if I don't understand the words"energy. So many of the above posters have commented on things that make them feel good. So, I'm going to go for it. LOVE HEALS. (no matter what words you want to use)
So Eliot, observe, get back to us when completed, and treat the children well.

I also wish just to point out that my experience with what at the time was alternative medicine, was always accompanied by conventional medicine. All references I gave were MD's.

The guided imagery is done by putting oneself into the first stage of hypnosis--called the Alpha state.

Eliot, this thread is going quite well, so rejoin it please. Everyone is acting like an adult--even if they're laughing behind their screens.

Good posts everyone!

Annette

 

[Circe]

Just putting this out there, from on article on the recent discovery of a genetic test for depression:

"The research, published in Translational Psychiatry, uses a blood lab test and is the first objective diagnosis for the disorder.
The test measures levels of nine RNA molecules, which are like DNA’s squires that carry out its instructions. The study authors compared 32 patients diagnosed with major depressive disorder with the same number of controls and found the RNA markers’ levels differed in depressed patients.

Three of the nine markers remained the same even when the depressed patient went into remission, which might indicate that the person is more vulnerable to the disorder. “These three markers move us towards the ultimate goal of identifying predisposition to depression, even in the absence of a current depressive episode,” said study author Eva Reidel, Ph.D., in a press release.
The test also showed the effects of cognitive behavioral therapy (CBT), a type of psychotherapy that gently reroutes your thoughts to more effectively deal with mental health issues.

Certain markers changed levels after a patient went through four and a half months of CBT and was evaluated to no longer be depressed.

Even better: When patients’ biomarkers exhibit a certain pattern, they are likely to improve with CBT. Finding an effective type of treatment can be trial and error — and amp up frustration when you aren’t getting well — so the test can point patients to more individualized treatment. Attempting to find a test like this isn’t new to the field. The researchers write:

'The search for an objective diagnostic test with high sensitivity and specificity for [major depressive disorder] has been ongoing for decades.'

And as a disorder that is on the rise, depression is a serious global problem in need of more effective solutions. Clinical depression affects about 6.7% of the world’s adult population. If that number doesn’t mean that much to you, according to the World Health Organization, it’s the leading disability on the planet (for adolescents too, per their recent report).

Further research needs to be done with larger sample groups, but the discovery could offer hope of a sturdier scientific diagnosis." - http://www.buzzfeed.com/kasiagalazka/blood-test-depression#14k32e6

(Yes, I know it's Buzzfeed, but Translational Psychiatry appears to be peer-reviewed and reputable - psychiatrists, please correct me if I'm wrong.)

CBT is a way to reprogram your mind. In my experience, meditation & prayer perform very similar functions. I think any deliberate focus will. So - with all due respect to Jane's very impressive presentation, most of which I agree with - I'm happy to keep my mind open to the possibility that we're still figuring this stuff out, and the research is still catching up.

BTW, for what it's worth, I used to be religious. I've lost my faith, but I remember having a sense of the numinous, and encourage those who still have it to hold fast to it. It imbues the mundane with a sense of possibility that's impossible to quantify.

 

[JaneSmith]

Elliot and others who believe; my intent is never to hurt feelings, nor am I laughing here in meatspace. I am presenting the most current evidence. I am aware that alt med is often the practice of quasi-religious faith in a universal life force or other form of deism, and as such comes with the faith being held as part of a person's identity. I am also aware that being shown hard evidence that these treatments don't work does not make people feel warm and fuzzy, in fact it is usually seen as some kind of personal attack, or the cognitive dissonance sets in.
I am in no way suggesting that you point and laugh at or even lovingly suggest to someone who is dying that their alt med is bogus.

Elliot, if you are conducting studies into reiki I highly suggest reading up on the different study designs. Chose one that is rigorous and blinded, and you will get useful data.

I am not here for rah-rah's either. Ksinger's too cute comment is the first (and probably last) time anyone has said something like that to me here. K, cheers!

 

[smitcompton]

Hi,

Yesterday, I shut down my machine and suddenly I wondered if Eliot's Reiki was in any way related to Dr. Wilheim Reich theories on psychoanalysis and his Orgone box(sp) where he says he can capture energy in this box where he put his patients as part of his treatment plan. The name is similar and I would like to know if this is an off-shoot of his work.

Jane Smith & Ksinger-- A problem that I have with the kind of expert info that the two of you like to present is I don't want to read a term paper or research paper that will take a while to read. Why can't you both just tell it in your own words-synopsis like everyone else does. Why do you think people won't believe you? This isn't a symposium.

I am unsure I believe (now that I think about it) that acupuncture did not work until western medicine moved the needle targets a little. Maybe MZ could weigh in on this.

Circe --yes this is the kind of thing we must be open to, and happy to read of this progress.

Practical, selfish question now. I think I have gastritis- any home remedies or alt medicines?

Annette

 

[chemgirl]

Hi,

Yesterday, I shut down my machine and suddenly I wondered if Eliot's Reiki was in any way related to Dr. Wilheim Reich theories on psychoanalysis and his Orgone box(sp) where he says he can capture energy in this box where he put his patients as part of his treatment plan. The name is similar and I would like to know if this is an off-shoot of his work.

Jane Smith & Ksinger-- A problem that I have with the kind of expert info that the two of you like to present is I don't want to read a term paper or research paper that will take a while to read. Why can't you both just tell it in your own words-synopsis like everyone else does. Why do you think people won't believe you? This isn't a symposium.

I am unsure I believe (now that I think about it) that acupuncture did not work until western medicine moved the needle targets a little. Maybe MZ could weigh in on this.

Circe --yes this is the kind of thing we must be open to, and happy to read of this progress.

Practical, selfish question now. I think I have gastritis- any home remedies or alt medicines?

Annette

I had gastritis last year and my doctor prescribed me nexium. All sorts of annoying side effects so I drank ginger tea, alovera juice, and cut out irritating foods (coffee, alcohol, chocolate...all of the fun ones). It actually helped a lot.

Unfortunately it never really got 100% better so I saw a GI specialist about it. Turns out most cases of gastritis are caused by bacteria. In my case h-pylori. It can be suppressed naturally using broccoli sprouts, but you need to eat a cup a day forever so I opted for the antibiotics!

Might be worth seeing your doctor and asking about infections.

Eta: natural ish way to keep antibiotic resistant bacteria in check and avoid antibiotic associated diarrhea is to take s boulardi. Its a yeast so its not killed off by the antibiotics, but it keeps out resistant nasties. Easily found under the name florastor.

 

[movie zombie]

http://www.healthy.net/Health/Article/The_History_of_Acupuncture_in_China/1819/1

let us not forget that the history of western medication has been a long and arduous journey as well.
my own grandfather died of measles because the dr advised the family to keep him cool and he broke out on the inside rather than the outside which caused a lot of complications resulting in his death...this was early 1940.

western medicine v. "alternative" medicine: to denigrate one at the expense of another is I think a detriment as there are good aspects in both.

I would also take a hint from Germany and their studies as well as their use of herbs for common ailments which here drive up not only costs of medical treatment but over exposure to antibiotics.

milk thistle has been studied in depth and used for liver ailments by both "alternative" and western medical practitioners.
acupuncture is now used by some if not many western medical practitioners for pain management.

in a society that values rat poison as a heart medicine [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warfarin ]I find it hard to discount some alternative health remedies.

willow bark is the basis for bayer's aspirin.
so many 'folk' remedy ingredients are being appropriated and patented by western pharmaceutical companies.

I think one does their own research and makes their own decisions.
my decision to remove antibiotics as a way of life for treating my allergies, hay fever, chronic sinitus, and resultant ongoing respiratory infections has worked for me.

personally, I think they can be complimentary.......

 

[Lady_Disdain]

I would also take a hint from Germany and their studies as well as their use of herbs for common ailments which here drive up not only costs of medical treatment but over exposure to antibiotics.

milk thistle has been studied in depth and used for liver ailments by both "alternative" and western medical practitioners.
acupuncture is now used by some if not many western medical practitioners for pain management.

in a society that values rat poison as a heart medicine [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warfarin ]I find it hard to discount some alternative health remedies.

willow bark is the basis for bayer's aspirin.
so many 'folk' remedy ingredients are being appropriated and patented by western pharmaceutical companies.

I prefer that the active compounds be studied and isolated, instead of taken in the form of tisanes, powders, etc. Dosage is crucial in most medicines and often the difference between treatment and poison (such as in the example you cited, many poisons are actually concentrated compounds which overload the system, while a lower dosage can correct certain problems). As Agatha Christie fans know, foxglove can be both a heart remedy (digitalis, if I am not wrong) or an over stimulant leading to hear failure. Concentration in plants can vary a lot, depending on growing conditions, age of plant and other factors. Even the same plant varies from year to year (a dry year versus a rainy growing season, etc). I prefer more control in my medication.

Also, many plants have a lot of side effects, which can sometimes (but not always) be mitigated by the proper formulation. For example, willow bark tea is quite aggressive to the stomach lining, leading to ulcers. They are also blood thinners, so that ulcer can become a bleeding ulcer. Aspirin is usually formulated with buffer compounds or delayed release, to mitigate this problem. Other herbs can interfere with medication, increase blood pressure, etc, which has to be taken in consideration. Just because it is natural doesn't mean it is safe.

I don't mean to take a radical approach. Ginger or mint tea is good for an upset stomach and doesn't do harm (that I know of). My approach is that I will increase (within reason, of course) something that is already in my diet or add a common ingredient to it, but I won't take things that aren't usually food.

I don't think looking to folk medicine and understanding what works and how it works is negative - I think it is great. It allows us to have better medication, greater understanding of how our bodies work and it also identifies what doesn't work. And, if you prefer to use the plant directly, you are certainly free to do so, hopefully with more knowledge of how it works and how to take it.