Needle inclusions in paraiba tourmaline?

[RockHugger]

Are Pariaba tourmalines suppost to have orangiesh needle inclusions or is this a treatment? I saw one today and it was very odd. Wasnt filled with them, but there were 4 or so of them seen with a 10x loupe. It was a good price, so if it is something they are SUPPOST to or may have, I may pick it up.

 

[T L]

Copper bearing tourmalines from the Mozambique deposit do commonly have needle inclusions. There is some controversy as to whether large orange needles are caused by material used to dye the stones (filler in these needles). I really cannot tell you if the controversy and the studies are true or not. Maybe someone else has more to add on that. I have some cuprians with needles, but they are very thin (very hard to see with the naked eye) and they are not orange. One of them is that recut one I showed you in another thread. Here's a picture of one of the controversy stones. These needles are huge and very easily visible to the naked eye.

 

[RockHugger]

Well this one I was looking at is ''suppost'' to be from mozambique, so that would make sense. From what I saw, they were very thin (I have nothing to compare though as ''thick'' at eye lvl). They looked like tiny cracks but had a wierd orangy pink color to them. There isnt a ton of information on google about it, wich is why I come to you guys and your stone knowlage! It was almost a 3ct stone as well. Nice size.

 

[T L]

Search using this term, and you''ll find some information related to this.

"needles in Mozambique tourmaline"

 

[RockHugger]

Ok....I found 2 things...one that says the same as you said and one that says the needles are from growth and heating and are natural in mozambique tourmalines. LOL. So...it could go either way but I guess it is ''common'' for the needles to be there.

Now an important question. What is fair price for an almost 3ct mozambique tourmaline? It is light blue (like a med-dark aquamarine) with some greenish overtones. Clarity was Slightly included with some feathers (not including the needles as they arnt really eye visable). He wants 300 for it, but I want to make an offer of course (or should I leave it at that price so I dont seem crazy).

 

[T L]

Date: 11/29/2009 8:51:38 PM
Author: Tropicgal10
Ok....I found 2 things...one that says the same as you said and one that says the needles are from growth and heating and are natural in mozambique tourmalines. LOL. So...it could go either way but I guess it is ''common'' for the needles to be there.

Now an important question. What is fair price for an almost 3ct mozambique tourmaline? It is light blue (like a med-dark aquamarine) with some greenish overtones. Clarity was Slightly included with some feathers (not including the needles as they arnt really eye visable). He wants 300 for it, but I want to make an offer of course (or should I leave it at that price so I dont seem crazy).

If it''s not neon, or a neon turquoise or minty blue, then I would guess $150/ct is a fair price, especially if it has a strong grey modifier. In other words, if it looks like an aqua, it probably is $150/ct. It''s hard to say without a photo, so I could be misjudging the price. Personally, I wouldn''t want a copper bearing stone that looked like an aqua, but one with a nice neon or strong color saturation with very little to no grey. If I wanted a stone that looked like an aqua, I would buy an aqua - lol! If you''re looking to flip it because of the copper content, well, then you would need a cert from a reputable lab that would indicate it contains copper.

BTW, I forgot to mention that these stones are known to be clarity enhanced with filler (like emeralds), so without knowing that treatment, it could be a very inexpensive stone.

 

[RockHugger]

Well thats where the green comes in. It has a neon green color to it but is a blue stone. Does this make sense? It deff doesnt look like aquamarine though, looks like a light blue colored paraiba but the blue color shade is that of a med aquamarine.

I wouldnt buy it to flip it (I havnt flipped a single stone I have bought so far). I actually want it in my collection. Ever sence I found the smaller paraiba stone, I have been wanting a bigger one. BTW it is Cushion cut (another shape I have been wanting). Maybe if I want to sell it i n the future I will get it certed. I didnt end up buying the other paraiba tourmaline I was talking about. I wanted something clearer and I didnt trust the othe rone could be recut.

As for clarity enhancement, if they did that they did a BAD job because they missed quite a few spots!! I highly doubt it is clarity enhanced.

 

[T L]

Date: 11/29/2009 9:18:57 PM
Author: Tropicgal10
Well thats where the green comes in. It has a neon green color to it but is a blue stone. Does this make sense? It deff doesnt look like aqua marine though, looks like a light blue colored pariaba but the blue color shade is that of a med aquamarine.

I wouldnt buy it to flip it. I actually want it in my collection. Ever sence I found the smaller paraiba stone, I have been wanting a bigger one. BTW it is Cushion cut (another shape I have been wanting). Maybe if I want to sell it i n the future I will get it certed.

As for clarity enhancement, if they did that they did a BAD job because they missed quite a few spots!! I highly doubt it is clarity enhanced.

When I think of aquamarines, I think of greyish blue, so it's hard for me to picture what you're saying. Perhaps you mean the tone is the same as a medium colored aqua. From your description, it sounds like a slightly greenish blue stone with medium tone. Not sure of the saturation of color because neon slightly bluish-green color looks like kryptonite (just more blue). I don't use the word "neon" lightly, and the most expensive colored stones are neon colored, which is an unofficial term to describe extremely vivid and glowy color saturation.

BTW, a very included stone can be clarity enhanced, so just because it has inclusions, doesn't mean it's not clarity enhanced. In any case, do not use an ultrasonic or steam cleaner on it if you decide to get it.

 

[RockHugger]

Hmm, well IF I get it ill take a pic for ya so you can see it. I say neon as it gives off a ''glow in the dark'' look. Its odd, and I dont know a ton about these so its hard to explain LOL. I will also ask if it is enhanced in any way. I dont use ultrasonic cleaners on any of my jewelry or stones. They make me cringe when I see a stone go in one and get battered around.

 

[T L]

Date: 11/29/2009 9:37:04 PM
Author: Tropicgal10
Hmm, well IF I get it ill take a pic for ya so you can see it. I say neon as it gives off a 'glow in the dark' look. Its odd, and I dont know a ton about these so its hard to explain LOL. I will also ask if it is enhanced in any way. I dont use ultrasonic cleaners on any of my jewelry or stones. They make me cringe when I see a stone go in one and get battered around.

I wouldn't take the seller's word for it if it's enhanced, only a lab report. True neon stones glow in almost all lighting. I'm not sure if you've ever seen a super vivid stone in person, but once you have, it's easier to distinguish neon from just a regular bright stone. Remember my recut tourmaline, it has that "glow in the dark" look, but I wouldn't classify it as neon. It's just a very bright stone with a moderately strong color saturation, but not a vivid color saturation.

 

[chrono]

TL is correct that some Mozambique cuprian tourmalines show the needle inclusions; these are typically extremely fine and thin (pin needle-like). By the same token, there are also discussion that some of these pinkish copper needles might be infused to give the stone its copper content. Again, I'm not sure where that discussion has headed but until then, I plan to avoid them until it is settled.

As for treatment, do NOT rely on the seller's word. I've very recently heard of paraibas today being resin filled, oiled, etc.

 

[RockHugger]

I have been researching the needles, and it seems that the claim of deffusion is only being made by one small group. I also read the claim was discredited by the GIA and being said the inclusions are filled with natural elements from the area and formed durring the crystal growth and then ''caked'' by the heating process. I mean, dont get me wrong there could be treatments, but it seems like the GIA is saying they are NOT diffused.

Oh and as for certification, the stone I am thinking of buying IS certified. He said it has a ''Thialand gem institute" or "gem institute of thialand" or something to that sort certification. He has a really thick accent so Im pretty sure thats what he said. He said it is not fracture filled (he SAID). I will scope it real well if I buy it to make sure it isnt. I got ahold of a 60-180x scope.

 

[LD]

Tropic - with all due respect, scoping anything when you aren''t 100% familiar with a gemstone isn''t going to tell you anything. There are people who have been collecting for years and would still have trouble identifying treatments. I believe I can speak for the majority of serious collectors on here when I say that NONE of us would (a) rely on a seller or (b) rely on our own testing. Like TL, I collect Paraiba Tourmaline (from Brazil and Mozambique). I have a purple PT that has a copper inclusion that you are seeing in your blue stone.

Please check out the photos of Paraiba Tourmaline on this forum. That''ll give you an indication as to what a neon stone should be like. If you''ve found a 3ct neon Paraiba Tourmaline (even if it''s included and has some copper inclusions) for a cheap price then you really really really need to be thinking that it''s probably a Tourmaline and would never earn the title of Paraiba Tourmaline amongst true collectors. I am incredibly suspicious if somebody is selling such a sought after neon gemstone cheaply. There''s virtually always a reason.

Whilst stones such as the ones below are extremely rare, this gives you a feeling for what "neon" means. The majority of gemstones don''t look like this but it gives you a benchmark as to what is the most sought after. Is this what you''re seeing?

 

[T L]

Slightly off topic (sorry Tropicgal), but LD, you mention a purple PT you have. Do you have a picture anywhere? I'd love to see it!!

Pretty please!

 

[LD]

Date: 11/30/2009 3:36:16 PM
Author: tourmaline_lover
Slightly off topic (sorry Tropicgal), but LD, you mention a purple PT you have. Do you have a picture anywhere? I''d love to see it!!

Pretty please!

Tee hee! Nothing gets past you TL! I haven''t got a good piccie. The one I have is awful but I promise I will take one at the weekend when I eventually come out of the darkness into light and will take a few. I actually have a couple but they''re not wowzers. Yours is a much better example.

 

[T L]

Date: 11/30/2009 3:40:46 PM
Author: LovingDiamonds

Date: 11/30/2009 3:36:16 PM
Author: tourmaline_lover
Slightly off topic (sorry Tropicgal), but LD, you mention a purple PT you have. Do you have a picture anywhere? I''d love to see it!!

Pretty please!

Tee hee! Nothing gets past you TL! I haven''t got a good piccie. The one I have is awful but I promise I will take one at the weekend when I eventually come out of the darkness into light and will take a few. I actually have a couple but they''re not wowzers. Yours is a much better example.

Thank you LD!! Looking forward to pictures!

Tropicgal,
If the stone is a pretty color, and has an overall attractive appearance that you love, then buy it because you like it, and not as an investment or to resell. If it isn''t something that you would love, and you think you wouldn''t enjoy having in your collection, then skip it, for the $$$ can be used later on to purchase a nicer stone.

For example, the one recut cuprian I have is not in the same league as those gorgeous true Brazilian paraibas that LD posted above, but I love it for what it is. I think it is a very pretty stone with a nice bright and decent saturation of color and great cutting. I enjoy it a great deal, and I''m glad I have it, but I don''t think I would sell it.

The stones above would retail for upwards of $20,000 USD/ct (that''s per carat, not the whole stone), so not many of us can afford the neon colors that are so highly coveted in these gems. Very very few gems are the neon intensity of color as the ones above, and the rarity and price reflects this. Even so, the pictures above do not do the stones justice. One really needs to see a top Brazilian paraiba in person to understand and appreciate why they are so valued.

 

[RockHugger]

I know what paraibas are worth. Thats why I am geeked about this one I saw. He is holding on to it till payday on friday for me. Then I am going to pick it up. It comes with a cert so I know its real copper bearing tourmaline.

Here is a picture of one I found that matches color wise the one I want...
http://www.gemselect.com/paraiba-tourmaline/paraiba-tourmaline-164801.php

'mine' has more of a 'glow in the dark' green hue to it then this one, but the color minus the hue are almost exact. This one also isnt as 'bright' but its the only one I found with the same color.

As for scoping, I am actually pretty good at finding treatments. I worked in a jewelry store and checked colored stones and diamonds. The owner was a gemologist and tought me what to look for and how to find it. Just because my tourmaline knowlege isnt up to par, doesnt mean I dont know my rocks.

BTW, the Paraibas in the photo are BEAUTIFUL! I wouldnt mind finding one of those! LOL.

 

[FrekeChild]

Just curious, could you give us the carat size and the price he''s asking for it?

 

[RockHugger]

2.8ct Cushion, and he is asking $300 for it.

 

[T L]

Date: 11/30/2009 6:16:07 PM
Author: Tropicgal10
I know what paraibas are worth. Thats why I am geeked about this one I saw. He is holding on to it till payday on friday for me. Then I am going to pick it up. It comes with a cert so I know its real copper bearing tourmaline.

Here is a picture of one I found that matches color wise the one I want...
http://www.gemselect.com/paraiba-tourmaline/paraiba-tourmaline-164801.php

''mine'' has more of a ''glow in the dark'' green hue to it then this one, but the color minus the hue are almost exact. This one also isnt as ''bright'' but its the only one I found with the same color.

As for scoping, I am actually pretty good at finding treatments. I worked in a jewelry store and checked colored stones and diamonds. The owner was a gemologist and tought me what to look for and how to find it. Just because my tourmaline knowlege isnt up to par, doesnt mean I dont know my rocks.

BTW, the Paraibas in the photo are BEAUTIFUL! I wouldnt mind finding one of those! LOL.

Tropicgal,
The stone you listed in the link above has very poor saturation of color, and isn''t really worth much. If you like that color, that''s one thing, and that''s fine, but I''m just providing my opinion since I do collect these stones.

 

[chrono]

It’s a colour I would pass on as well. The colour is definitely not glowy or neon. It’s not something that will pass the colour mark that differentiates a Paraiba from a cuprian.

 

[LD]

I agree with the others. That may be sold as a "paraiba" tourmaline but it doesn''t have the glow, saturation or neon quality that heralds such a name. I personally wouldn''t buy a paraiba that looked like that. Like TL I collect Paraiba Tourmalines. Search on my name and you''ll see photos of some of mine - some of which do look like the photo I posted above.

I apologise about being negative but ........... 2.8ct for $300 - sorry, that says it all. You get what you pay for.