Need Some Help ASAP Please! GIAXXX?

[cluelessman77]

So I'm looking to buy this diamond very soon, but would REALLY appreciate as a second opinion as I am nowhere near an expert. I have been reading on these boards recently and have been seeing that all GIA triple X are not created equal. I am going through a family friend who does not have an idealscope or asetscope, but would at least like your opinions of the proportions and GIA cert. The stone would be $17,048.

Measurements 7.74 - 7.79 x 4.69 mm
Carat Weight 1.72 carat
Color Grade F
Clarity Grade VS2
Cut Grade Excellent
PROPORTIONS

Depth 60.3 %
Table 57 %
Crown Angle 33.0°
Crown Height 14.0%
Pavilion Angle 40.8°
Pavilion Depth 43.0%
Star Length 50%
Lower Half 80%
Girdle Medium to Slightly Thick, Faceted, 3.0%
Culet None

http://www.gia.edu/cs/Satellite?pagename=GST%2FDispatcher&childpagename=GIA%2FPage%2FReportCheck&c=Page&cid=1355954554547&reportno=7198734696

I may be able to take the stone to a retailer that does have an idealscope or asetscope, but in the meantime, please please share your opinions. The 33.0 crown angle is a little low I believe but it scores under 2 on the HCA. I don't live in a very big city though so it may be difficult to find a jeweler with those tools.

 

[decisively_unsure]

"The stone would be $17,048."

Please, at this sort of money especially, you cannot rely on a certificate or a photo. You either need a trusted eye or the ability to shortlist a series of stones, at the same time, in person!

 

[cluelessman77]

I saw 6 stones in person, but honestly I struggle to see the difference amongst a lineup of F, VS2, XXX. The family friend is a believer that all GIA XXX are basically equal and really just looks at color and clarity (not reflective and not black in the center). The only stone I've ever seen that looks noticeably brighter and livelier was a Forevermark diamond I saw in one store, but I've been trying to convince myself it was the lights since its like a $2000 upcharge.

 

[decisively_unsure]

I saw 6 stones in person, but honestly I struggle to see the difference amongst a lineup of F, VS2, XXX. The family friend is a believer that all GIA XXX are basically equal and really just looks at color and clarity (not reflective and not black in the center). The only stone I've ever seen that looks noticeably brighter and livelier was a Forevermark diamond I saw in one store, but I've been trying to convince myself it was the lights since its like a $2000 upcharge.

There isn't much in it when you get to this level. Spend some time with a shortlist & pick one. Take an LED torch with you or something to see what they're like in intense light. It's that simple, and I agree, all GIA XXX are just bright and lovely stones.

 

[ecf8503]

You are correct - not all GIA XXX are created equal. The range is very broad, and some do fall on the low end of the spectrum. If you saw a difference in the Forevermark, then you likely did in fact see a difference. I also agree with the previous poster that at this price range, you can get a cream of the crop cut - not just buy from a "friend" for the sake of convenience. Not all jewelers are even aware of idealscopes and asets - which to me shows lack of desire to keep up with the times (cuz they are a changin'!)

 

[cluelessman77]

So there is some truth that Forevermark diamond rough is inherently brighter? Multiple jewelers have told me that, but it just seems that it would come out in the grading somehow.

And I definitely understand that for my budget I should be picky, but he is not charging any profit at all so it is a really nice favor to ignore. If I had asetscope and idealscope images for this diamond and they were good, would there be a reason to turn it down? And should I still consider a forevermark diamond, triple X, 1.65 carat, F, VS2 for $19,000 even though the proportions aren't as close to ideal?

 

[lxAsTrOxl]

What exactly did he mean by "brighter"?

A Super-Ideal diamond will often times face up "whiter" than a poor-very good cut graded diamond. And as you get higher in ct weight (usually 2+) the easier it is to see tint or warmth of the diamond. So if it was me yes I'd consider a super-ideal or just go higher in color grade. But a F graded by GIA to me would be plenty white i'm sure of it so i'd just go with a super-ideal cut. But i'm a self proclaimed perfectionist so if I didn't get the best cut possible it would always be at the back of my mind bothering me. Goodluck.

 

[cluelessman77]

I guess my question is, if I'm very concerned about getting one of the best cuts possible, is that 33 a dealbreaker? I'm not trying to buy a branded cut and H&A is not important, but light performance is my main concern. What are the proportions for AGS 0?

 

[JDDN]

Sounds like you're looking for the Tolkowsky Ideal Cut proportions. Here they are in a range:

Table: 55-58%
Depth: 60-61.5% (max 62.5% with a 4% girdle)
Pavilion angle: 40.6-41 degrees
Crown angle: 34-35 degrees

 

[JDDN]

The stone you're posting about is promising by the numbers. I wouldn't say a CA of 33 is a deal breaker, especially with a PA of 40.8. Could be a really, really nice stone. A CA of 33 doesn't necessarily mean the light performance will be poor or less than. Shallower crown angles tend to face up a bit brighter and have less fire or colored dispersion than a stone with a CA of say 35. There are other factors involved too, so take that with a grain of salt.

For performance you'd want to view IS and ASET images. I'm doubtful jewelers would have these tools (but you never know). You may have better luck finding an appraiser who has them.

 

[ecf8503]

He's so focused on clarity and that's what he says "people that know diamonds" will be concerned with.

And there you go. Clarity is expensive - look at the price jumps from one clarity grade to the next in otherwise nearly identical diamonds and you'll see it.

The jeweler I use at home here for benchwork is hung up on clarity too. Bugs me.

There are plenty of eye clean SI1's out there. I've had several - can't see a thing - they do exist. Unless it's a mind clean issue for you, I'd consider dropping down to an SI range and see what you can get.

And I don't believe for a second he isn't making something off the sale of this stone.

 

[lxAsTrOxl]

He's so focused on clarity and that's what he says "people that know diamonds" will be concerned with.

And I don't believe for a second he isn't making something off the sale of this stone.

Agreed. No ones in this business to not turn a profit. Can't tell you how many times I've heard of a "friend" hook up and the person getting screwed.

 

[NewbieKC]

Yeah, I would be very clear that you're primary focus is on cut because like I said, most jewelers are way too focused on clarity and think that it defines "people that know diamonds". Before I went to ID jewelry I went to a few other jewelers in NYC and most were concerned with the same black spots youre speaking of. And I was looking for a very similar stone as you as I wanted to stay under 20k and the only aspects most jewelers said effected price were where the inclusions were. I think that this is just the sign of an outdated jeweler like another poster said and maybe it would be wise to find a new one. I know you said you arent in a large city so your options may be limited, but your "family friend" is still likely making a profit so it may be worth expanding your search. You seem to be educating yourself and looking for other factors like HCA and proportions. Another user was kind enough to post the ideal proportions so I'd start there! I am by no means an expert, but I was in the same position you are a few weeks back. Trust the people on here and find a jeweler you can trust. Makes all the difference.

 

[cluelessman77]

Thanks guys. I guess maybe I could be wrong about the no profit thing but he is a fairly close family friend. I don't know why he would lie, but I guess it couldn't hurt to compare with another jeweler. The search continues I guess lol

 

[pearaffair]

I have no useful knowledge to add, but wanted to chime in and say good luck and congratulations!!

 

[ariel144]

go to Good Old Gold or Brian Gavin diamonds online and some of the other PS vendors and see what they have in your budget.
Good old Gold has many educational videos so you can get some knowledge of what you are doing or you can trust their
expertise to find the best stone in your budget.

All GIA XXX's are definitely not created equal.

Someone just posted a great review of ID Jewelry. They do a great job too.
And Brilliantly Engaged.

Just don't get in a rush...and PSr's dont recommend buying from a friend of the family.

If you will post your budget and ask for PSr's to find you a great stone they will search
all the vendors for you and make suggestions.

I"m not a MRB expert but hope this helps.

http://www.goodoldgold.com/ecommerce/1-7ct-h-vs2-superior-round-hearts-and-arrows-diamond.html
http://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut/1.70-carat-i-color-si1-clarity-ideal-cut-sku-486254
http://www.briangavindiamonds.com/diamonds/diamond-details/1.975-i-si2-round-diamond-909.00-104079526019#!prettyPhoto[gallery2]/0/
http://www.briangavindiamonds.com/diamonds/diamond-details/1.758-i-vs2-round-diamond-ags-104073209013

 

[ariel144]

Your diamond scored an excellent 1.3 on the HCA calculator
It may be a very nice stone. If you like it, the price seems reasonable too.
would be great if you could send it off for testing.

You could ask the vendor to send it to AGS for grading and get
the light return grade.

Selected: 60.3% depth, 57% table, 33° crown angle, 40.3° pavilion angle
The result is for a symmetrical diamond with a medium girdle and very good polish
HCA scores were adjusted Dec. 15, 2001 and Feb. 6, 2003.


Factor Grade
Light Return Very Good
Fire Excellent
Scintillation Excellent
Spread
or diameter for weight Excellent
Total Visual Performance 1.3 - Excellent
within TIC range
- See more at: https://www.pricescope.com/tools/hca#sthash.Cq3CEG64.dpuf

 

[ariel144]

I guess my question is, if I'm very concerned about getting one of the best cuts possible, is that 33 a dealbreaker? I'm not trying to buy a branded cut and H&A is not important, but light performance is my main concern. What are the proportions for AGS 0?

Go to the vendors I posted and check out the numbers on their AGS reports for Ideal optical symmetry.
Most crown angles are around 35.

Hope this helps a little. I'm not an expert on MRB's.

 

[cluelessman77]

Your diamond scored an excellent 1.3 on the HCA calculator
It may be a very nice stone. If you like it, the price seems reasonable too.
would be great if you could send it off for testing.

You could ask the vendor to send it to AGS for grading and get
the light return grade.

Selected: 60.3% depth, 57% table, 33° crown angle, 40.3° pavilion angle
The result is for a symmetrical diamond with a medium girdle and very good polish
HCA scores were adjusted Dec. 15, 2001 and Feb. 6, 2003.


Factor Grade
Light Return Very Good
Fire Excellent
Scintillation Excellent
Spread
or diameter for weight Excellent
Total Visual Performance 1.3 - Excellent
within TIC range
- See more at: https://www.pricescope.com/tools/hca#sthash.Cq3CEG64.dpuf

I plugged in the numbers to HCA and got .7 with all excellent although I know that <2 is all that matters. I think I will still look elsewhere and see if there is an appraiser in my area with an idealscope and asetscope so that I can see the results before I buy. Hopefully they can provide images so I can post as I'm not awesome at interpreting them.

 

[cluelessman77]

So is 33 CA a better match for a lower or higher PA? For instance is a 33/41 pairing better than a 33/40.8 pairing?

 

[lxAsTrOxl]

So is 33 CA a better match for a lower or higher PA? For instance is a 33/41 pairing better than a 33/40.8 pairing?

Theoretically yes from my basic understanding.

 

[cluelessman77]

Any other opinions on the 33/40.8 CA/PA? I believe that $17k is a pretty fair price for these specs, but I don't want to sacrifice cut who knew diamond buying would be so stressful haha

 

[cluelessman77]

Bump

 

[JDDN]

Theoretically a steeper PA is more complimentary with a shallower CA and vice versa. Without an IS or ASET we can't really give you the reassurance you're seeking. The angle combinations of your stone aren't bad.

Is there a solid return policy, 100% money back for 30 days? If so, then you could buy it and see how you like it in real life. You can also find an appraiser to look at it with an IS or ASET. You can also buy an IS too. They are pretty inexpensive.

 

[cluelessman77]

Ok, but if the asetscope and idealscope results are ok than these proportions are good enough? I'm just wondering if my search should continue even though I'm not sure how much better I can get for $17k. I just really really want the ring to pop, be bright and have a lot of fire for my future fiancé.

 

[JDDN]

17k is a nice price and the stone has promise. It's on the shallower end of a Tolkowsky Ideal cut diamond, but that does not mean it isn't going to sparkle or be gorgeous. Sometimes we get really caught up in the numbers and that isn't always a good thing. I recently bought a diamond with a crown angle of 36 and it was a stunner. SO sparkly and brilliant. With a shallower crown angle like the one you are considering it will be nice and bright. It will probably sacrifice a bit of fire, but I don't know that she/you will really notice. I think for the price it's worth a look especially if you can return it if you really don't love it.

 

[decisively_unsure]

There is SO much more than the numbers, and beauty is subjective. My fiancé has a GIA Triple Excellent (D grade, VVS2) that scores 5.7 on the HCA, but it is an utterly "banging" stone, I preferred it to so-called ideals. It has a big personality and unique dynamic scintillation, no way can you see any "leakage" that a scope would detect.

To be frank I find all these scope images to be rather clinical, I like the analogy of a "perfect" machine woven rug vs. a hand made one with imperfection and character. Which one do you prefer? Well, that's up to you.

 

[decisively_unsure]

I will add though, if you are buying online and not visually inspecting, then what else do we have? I don't mean to discredit scopes and if buying blind they've all we've got. However, if the scope looks better than in real life, then don't be put off by an "inferior" scope image!

 

[solgen]

There is SO much more than the numbers, and beauty is subjective. My fiancé has a GIA Triple Excellent (D grade, VVS2) that scores 5.7 on the HCA, but it is an utterly "banging" stone, I preferred it to so-called ideals. It has a big personality and unique dynamic scintillation, no way can you see any "leakage" that a scope would detect.

To be frank I find all these scope images to be rather clinical, I like the analogy of a "perfect" machine woven rug vs. a hand made one with imperfection and character. Which one do you prefer? Well, that's up to you.

Could you post pics of her ring? It helps to have stones that dispel the <2 HCA score.

 

[Dancing Fire]

There is SO much more than the numbers, and beauty is subjective. My fiancé has a GIA Triple Excellent (D grade, VVS2) that scores 5.7 on the HCA, but it is an utterly "banging" stone, I preferred it to so-called ideals. It has a big personality and unique dynamic scintillation, no way can you see any "leakage" that a scope would detect.

To be frank I find all these scope images to be rather clinical, I like the analogy of a "perfect" machine woven rug vs. a hand made one with imperfection and character. Which one do you prefer? Well, that's up to you.

What is the specs on the stone?