Need help deciding between two RB's

[richardjay]

Hi Everyone,

I'm quite new to buying diamonds, but I have had some guidance from some friends. I'm getting ready to purchase an engagement ring, and have narrowed it down to two stones found online. My criteria may be different than other people, but my order of importance is:

Carat
Cut
Clarity
Color

First Diamond

GIA Certified (see attachment)
Includes magnified photo (see attached)

Shape: Round Brilliant
Carat weight: 1.90
Cut: Ideal
Color: J
Clarity: VS1
Depth %: 62.5%
Table %: 56%
Crown Angle: 36.5
Pavilion Angle: 40.6
Crown %: 16%
Pavilion %: 43%
Polish: Excellent
Symmetry: Excellent
Girdle: Medium to Slightly Thick
Culet: None
Fluorescence: Strong
Measurements: 7.90 x 7.85 x 4.93 mm
HCA Score: 2.4
Light Return: Very Good
Fire: Very Good
Scintillation: Very Good
Spread or diameter for weight: Very Good


Second Diamond

AGS Certified (see attached)
Includes ASET Images (see in AGS)

Shape: Round Brilliant
Carat: 1.91
Color: J
Clarity: VVS2
Cut: Excellent
Depth %: 61.6%
Table %: 55.0%
Crown Angle: 35.3
Pavilion Angle: 41.2
Crown %: 15.8%
Pavilion %: 43.4%
Measurements: 7.97x8.03x4.93
Culet : Very Small
Fluorescence: None
Girdle: Thin-Medium

HCA Score: 4.0
Light Return: Very Good
Fire: Good
Scintillation: Good
Spread or diameter for weight: Very Good


The dealer selling the 2nd diamond told me that there's a chance that the 2nd diamond may perform better than the 1st. It's hard to tell since the 1st diamond doesn't have ASET Images and only has computer based HCA calculations. Is this true?

Both diamonds are priced relatively similar. The first being priced roughly $900 USD more. I would love to hear which diamond you think is the better.


Thanks,

Richard

 

[JulieN]

The GIA one is worth getting an Ideal Scope or ASET. The AGS stone is not a disaster... but it isn't that good.

 

[richardjay]

Hi Julie,

Thank you for responding back. The diamond seller for the GIA diamond is an online dealer, and does not offer in house ASET or Ideal Scope services. If I were to buy the diamond, is it easy to find someone that can take ASET and Ideal Scope images? Any idea on what the cost might be?


Thanks,

Richard

 

[John P]

The dealer selling the 2nd diamond told me that there's a chance that the 2nd diamond may perform better than the 1st. It's hard to tell since the 1st diamond doesn't have ASET Images and only has computer based HCA calculations. Is this true?

Maybe. Maybe not. They're both interesting examples. The 1.91 has basic proportions in an area that can range from AGS 1-3 depending on specifics. It scored AGS 1 thanks in large part to great high-angle light return, which is apparent from the ASET imprint. The contrast pattern is not conventional or symmetrically balanced. There were some 'fixes' done in brillianteering to chase out inclusions or clean-up the cross-working (green areas at 11:30 and 5:30) which reduced the level of 3D cut-precision. What does all that mean? Based on the proportions and ASET imprint it's likely a very bright diamond - in fact, as an AGS 1 it's better than most you'll see out and about - but may lack the large bold dispersion of diamonds with conventional contrast patterns and top 3D precision.

Meanwhile the 1.90 also has proportions which, if measured in the AGSL metric, could land it anywhere between AGS 0-4 in performance.

The diamond seller for the GIA diamond is an online dealer, and does not offer in house ASET or Ideal Scope services. If I were to buy the diamond, is it easy to find someone that can take ASET and Ideal Scope images? Any idea on what the cost might be?

You might want to contact Neil Beaty. Most online sellers have no problem sending a diamond or diamonds directly to him. He's a GIA GG and one of fewer than 20 AGS ICGAs in the world. I don't know exact cost but I think his basic analysis/insurance-document package is very affordable.

http://www.americangemregistry.com/

 

[richardjay]

Thank you John for your response; it really does mean a lot to me as this is my first time purchasing a diamond. It's really hard to have peace of mind without being able to see the diamond in person and seeing how all of these different grades translate to the look in person.

I noticed that the GIA diamond has a strong blue fluorescence, and I've read that this can be viewed as a positive when purchasing H-J colored diamonds. Would you agree? I've seen pictures of different I and J colored diamonds with strong blue fluorescence under different lighting and I do think it is an interesting characteristic.

Based on the information provided for the two diamonds, is there one you would choose over the other if you had to make a choice?


Thanks,

Richard

 

[Texas Leaguer]

Regarding the Strong Blue fluorescence of the GIA stone- some people like that, and if you are one of them that's a plus. While the market generally penalizes that trait, it actually helps a J color look a little whiter many lighting conditions. In rare cases it can affect transparency and make the diamond look milky- so get that checked out. Because of bias in the market against strong fluorescence, it creates an obstacle to liquidity if you every want to sell the diamond, in case that is a consideration for you.

 

[duke5021]

Have you seen them in person? Not in the shop's bright lights? I'd want to make sure the J color doesn't have any yellow in it.

Might be worth it to go to an I color and drop in size a bit.

That is if white and eye clean is important to you.

 

[John P]

Thank you John for your response; it really does mean a lot to me as this is my first time purchasing a diamond. It's really hard to have peace of mind without being able to see the diamond in person and seeing how all of these different grades translate to the look in person.

I noticed that the GIA diamond has a strong blue fluorescence, and I've read that this can be viewed as a positive when purchasing H-J colored diamonds. Would you agree? I've seen pictures of different I and J colored diamonds with strong blue fluorescence under different lighting and I do think it is an interesting characteristic.

Welcome to Pricescope Richard.

Blue fluorescence of medium and higher can help near-colorless diamonds. I like to remind people that fluorescence is on a sliding scale, so "strong" could be closer to medium or closer to very-strong. You will certainly want to verify that there are no adverse/hazy effects in this specific diamond. It's unlikely, but it's part of my checklist for any diamond - even with fluorescence under strong. A good question to ask the seller, and another topic an appraiser would also address.

Based on the information provided for the two diamonds, is there one you would choose over the other if you had to make a choice?

I'd need more information on the 1.90. There is no telling what the actual performance level is. As mentioned, with the numbers provided the actual diamond could span 4 AGSL grades and - since you asked me specifically - I will divide even AGS 0 into different performance and character categories.

 

[richardjay]

Thank you for responses. As for the milky/oily haze caused by fluorescence - how can you tell if it's there or not? Can you tell from a magnified photo? In the attached photo (see original post), the diamond appears fairly clear to me compared to other diamond pictures that I have seen.

If the milky/oily haze cannot be seen from a magnified picture, what kind of imaging tool can?


Thanks,

Richard

 

[John P]

Thank you for responses. As for the milky/oily haze caused by fluorescence - how can you tell if it's there or not? Can you tell from a magnified photo? In the attached photo (see original post), the diamond appears fairly clear to me compared to other diamond pictures that I have seen.

If the milky/oily haze cannot be seen from a magnified picture, what kind of imaging tool can?

There is not a conventional image that shows it. Possible to see in darkfield. Possible to exaggerate under UV. I even saw an example under CPFs long ago. But it's considered an in-person gemological assessment and only live human eyes can assess how pronounced the effect is, in the rare cases when it's present.

 

[richardjay]

** Update **

I went ahead and wired money over for the AGS stone and the dealer brought the diamond in house and took some pictures for me.

Their diamond expert replied back to me in the email and stated:

"Thanks for your patience! I was able to take a look at the stone and it’s very nice in person! It’s got nice light return, and is a fantastic size and price. It is also a very very clean stone, both eye clean and loupe clean."

What do you all think?

 

[Gypsy]

I think I see some leakage under the table.

 

[richardjay]

I understand that this stone isn't perfect, but I think for the price it's a good deal.

This stone is listed by White Flash is $11,200 USD.

Looking at the 2014 Rapaport Report, diamond's also in the 1.50-1.99 ct, J color, and VVS2 range should have an asking price of $8,200 USD/ ct.

So based on the Rapaport Report, this diamond's asking price should be around $15,700 USD. I'm guessing because this diamond's proportions and cut are not ideal, may be why it is selling for less?

 

[Gypsy]

Which stone is this the first or the second one?

 

[Gypsy]

Hmm. That price is exceptional. I wonder why.


But yeah... for that price. I can see buying it.

 

[richardjay]

That price is for the AGS stone (2nd stone). I haven't been able to find anything near that price with similar specs.

The GIA stone is listed at around $13,000 USD

 

[Gypsy]

SO you can't get an idealscope image for the first one?

 

[Gypsy]

I don't think you have enough information to choose that this point.

Can you get anything more on the GIA stone? Is the fluorescence safe in that stone? Can you get a SARIN scan to get the actual numbers on it (GIA rounds their numbers).

I'd take John Pollard's advice have the GIA stone sent to Neil. Have him run a SARIN and get you an idealscope image if the fluorescence is safe.

 

[richardjay]

I asked Blue Nile if they could do idealscope imaging or provide additional information once they receive the stone, and they said they would not. They can only provide GIA paperwork.

Based on the responses from people here and diamond review, I chose to go with White Flash and have them bring in the AGS diamond. I've heard that AGS is slightly more lenient on color grading than GIA, so I've asked White Flash to take a look at the color and tell me if they think the diamond is closer to a K or a I colored diamond.

 

[Gypsy]

Richard, if that stone is not one of the Blue Nile Signatures, then WF can call that one in for you too. Why haven't you have that done? I would do that, personally. Or Wink at HPD can do that for you too. But you are already working with WF.

 

[richardjay]

Hi Gypsy,

I tried that already. I shared Blue Nile's link with WF and they said that stone is not in the virtual inventory and were unable to track down the dealer. I just checked Blue Nile's website and the 1.90 is listed as not available. I'm not sure if it is because they still have it on hold or if its' being shown to another customer or already sold.

I think at this point, I'm just fishing for feedback from people on this board for reasons why I shouldn't go ahead and purchase the WF AGS diamond. I suppose I can check with Blue Nile to see if their 1.9 ct GIA diamond is still available, but I would only do that if there is reason to not just go ahead and purchase the WF AGS 1.914 ct.


Thanks,

Richard

 

[Gypsy]

Ok. There is a good return policy. So if you don't love it in person, then you can return it.

 

[richardjay]

Based on the images and information I provided, would you say that the WF AGS 1.914 ct diamond has an average or above average symmetry?

 

[Gypsy]

The stone is above average. Including including it's symmetry.

But averages is a low standard considering the fact that the majority of diamonds out there are poorly cut.

That said, it got an AGS1 for a reason. So it's not just above average, it's beyond that.

And both John Pollard and the gemologist at WG have told you that. Their words carry much more weight than mine here.

 

[richardjay]

Thank you all. Very happy and fortunate that there is this community and message board that has members that are so willing to help others.

I will think about this over the weekend and make a decision.


Thanks again!


-Richard

 

[John P]

Looking at the 2014 Rapaport Report, diamond's also in the 1.50-1.99 ct, J color, and VVS2 range should have an asking price of $8,200 USD/ ct.

So based on the Rapaport Report, this diamond's asking price should be around $15,700 USD. I'm guessing because this diamond's proportions and cut are not ideal, may be why it is selling for less?

Not to a significant degree.

First and foremost, "Rap" and other pricing guides are intentionally general. There are abundant written and unwritten details which influence pricing up or down. Yes, with cut-quality there are discounts for dreck and premiums for perfection, but the technical difference here is minimal. More coming on that.

Regarding "Listed Price:"

It reflects more than B2B cost-basis. We all know a diamond sells for less from a cut rate drop-shipper than in a Ski-Shop in Aspen. Why? Because the first guy never sees it, he just takes your money....while you're helping pay for velvet chairs and espresso machines in the Ski-Shop. (Mmm. Espresso.)

Supply-relationships matter. Let's say seller Charlie buys $100K/month for inventory and pays immediately. Meanwhile, seller Baker pops up twice a year, haggles over each diamond, requests 60-days to pay and takes 70. Clearly, Charlie is going to receive better pricing and special deals in the long-term. That may roll downhill to the final price a consumer sees.

Yes, there there is a technical difference between AGS 0 and 1. But the practical needs of the supplier may be more key. Typical bricks & mortar stores don't educate much about cut. They point at a report and say "This is Ideal so it's the best." or "This is EX so it's the best." The paper which says "EX" or "Ideal" is what they use. In this case, we have a diamond freshly-graded as AGS1. Maybe the supplier hoped for zero? It's close. I'd wager the supplier knows it has GIA EX proportions (although some pros will miss that) which the larger network of B&M stores would prefer... But GIA turnaround is more than a month right now, plus $$$ for shipping and more grading-report-expense.

Meanwhile it has been called-in for you, by a seller capable of demonstrating scientific performance beyond a number-grade. In a choice between selling now, or undergoing delay/expense to get EX, the supplier may want to incentivize the sale now, while it's in this market (PS) where its qualities can be shown in an educationally superior manner.

I want to be clear that I'm speculating, but it's based on experience and would address the question you posed. If my logic is in the ballpark, you might be the beneficiary of right-place/right-time, a rare 1.9X and a motivated seller.

While I'm on the old pricing-soapbox I would also remind the shoppers reading about "listed price" and seller costs. The well-reviewed Pricescope sellers all have a gemologist inspecting every diamond, a photographer/videographer making imagery, someone doing computer processing of pics and scans, uploads to web page, and overhead for packaging/shipping/insurance. When a diamond is called-in there are added shipping charges from the supplier (sometimes) and return shipping (every time) if the diamond isn't purchased.

So, when it comes to the highly regarded PS sellers, the actual sparkler is being sold for less than what you see listed...as opposed to sellers who don't provide the same suite of services.

(couches and espresso not-included)

 

[John P]

And both John Pollard and the gemologist at WG have told you that. Their words carry much more weight than mine here.

Hey...I've been jogging regularly to try and address that.

(Thanks Gypsy - but you're just as pro!)

Thank you all. Very happy and fortunate that there is this community and message board that has members that are so willing to help others. I will think about this over the weekend and make a decision.

Enjoy the rest of the weekend.

 

[richardjay]

Hi John,

Thank you for the write up. As usual, very informative and great read!

I will share pictures of the diamond once I receive it.


Thanks again!

Richard

 

[richardjay]

Just received some pictures from WF. I should receive the ring by next Monday.

For some reason, when mounted, the stone seems to be a bit small; it could be because none of the pictures are face up and the type of lens they were using.

What do you think?

 

[OoohShiny]

That doesn't look like a small stone to my noob eyes, I imagine your lady will be very pleased with it!