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bmendick1

Rough_Rock
Joined
Feb 16, 2013
Messages
24
I'm really not invested in this stone, I hope it is breathtakingly beautiful, but if it's not I'm definitely ready to send it back and find a new one. I paid $17,000
 

JulieN

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jul 25, 2005
Messages
13,324
bmendick1|1362602960|3398248 said:
Guys, I just contacted the seller and he says this is an actual image of the stone I purchased, taken by the diamond cutter. What do you guys think? I'll have the stone in my hands tomorrow.
What, exactly, did you expect them to say?

Yes, we picked an Ideal Scope image of a super-ideal with Tolkowsky proportions floating around on the Internet and sent it to you, thought you wouldn't notice. Sorry!

Mr. Pollard has very nicely and diplomatically explained why the IS does not belong to your diamond.

I am not a trade member and don't have to be nice.

Even in the extremely small chance that IS and the diamond match up, I am very uncomfortable with your vendor saying how awesome it is when it is at the cutters. While I understand that vendors rely on the opinions of the owners of the diamond, I was led to believe by your posts that your vendor had it in hand.
 

04diamond<3

Ideal_Rock
Joined
May 31, 2007
Messages
3,665
JulieN|1362606202|3398312 said:
bmendick1|1362602960|3398248 said:
Guys, I just contacted the seller and he says this is an actual image of the stone I purchased, taken by the diamond cutter. What do you guys think? I'll have the stone in my hands tomorrow.
What, exactly, did you expect them to say?

Yes, we picked an Ideal Scope image of a super-ideal with Tolkowsky proportions floating around on the Internet and sent it to you, thought you wouldn't notice. Sorry!

Mr. Pollard has very nicely and diplomatically explained why the IS does not belong to your diamond.

I am not a trade member and don't have to be nice.

Even in the extremely small chance that IS and the diamond match up, I am very uncomfortable with your vendor saying how awesome it is when it is at the cutters. While I understand that vendors rely on the opinions of the owners of the diamond, I was led to believe by your posts that your vendor had it in hand.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: Julie - you made me bust out laughing!!!
 

bmendick1

Rough_Rock
Joined
Feb 16, 2013
Messages
24
JulieN|1362606202|3398312 said:
bmendick1|1362602960|3398248 said:
Guys, I just contacted the seller and he says this is an actual image of the stone I purchased, taken by the diamond cutter. What do you guys think? I'll have the stone in my hands tomorrow.
What, exactly, did you expect them to say?

Yes, we picked an Ideal Scope image of a super-ideal with Tolkowsky proportions floating around on the Internet and sent it to you, thought you wouldn't notice. Sorry!

Mr. Pollard has very nicely and diplomatically explained why the IS does not belong to your diamond.

I am not a trade member and don't have to be nice.

Even in the extremely small chance that IS and the diamond match up, I am very uncomfortable with your vendor saying how awesome it is when it is at the cutters. While I understand that vendors rely on the opinions of the owners of the diamond, I was led to believe by your posts that your vendor had it in hand.
It is currently in the hands of the gemologist at brilliance.com, not the cutter, gemologist says he acquired the IS image from the cutter which the cutter had on file. As for you Julie, I'm not incredibly impressed. There is no question that I am new to the world of diamonds, but I'm just attempting to learn and inform myself as I spend $20k. People like you always amuse me when you take a rude and pretentious attitude on an internet forum, it always makes me laugh as I imagine the mess that is sitting in front of your computer monitor.

As for anyone with helpful advice, in what lighting and at what angles can I post actual shots of the stone once I have it in hand so that you guys can evaluate it? my sincere thanks to all that have been helpful.
 

JulieN

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jul 25, 2005
Messages
13,324
bmendick1|1362607680|3398332 said:
it always makes me laugh as I imagine the mess that is sitting in front of your computer monitor.
Let's try to not get personal. :rolleyes:

:wavey:
 

JulieN

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jul 25, 2005
Messages
13,324
bmendick1|1362607680|3398332 said:
There is no question that I am new to the world of diamonds, but I'm just attempting to learn and inform myself as I spend $20k.
As I've said, John Pollard has already explained to you why the IS has a very low probability of belonging to the diamond that you bought.

"Of more concern: I am convinced the seller gave you an incorrect image."

John is a very nice person who is not at all new to the world of diamonds, and he would not say he was convinced about such a serious matter if he was not convinced.
 

wbarnwell

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Jan 30, 2013
Messages
142
bmendick1|1362596016|3398114 said:
Guys here is the idealscope image, what do you think?
image_298.jpg
is_ags-104052819011.jpg


^^^^ I could be crazy, but I am pretty sure that is the EXACT same ID image that came up when I google'd "perfect ideal scope image". It was taken from Whiteflash.com. I'm sorry but that is downright flagrant. I would walk away from the diamond now, if only for this being such bad business.
 

JulieN

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jul 25, 2005
Messages
13,324
Yes, with a very high probability I thought it was an old Whiteflash image, but since their current images do not look like that, and I could not bring up something that looked like that and I was not 100%, I thought better to not downright accuse them.

John Pollard, as a former WF employee, also surely knew that.
 

04diamond<3

Ideal_Rock
Joined
May 31, 2007
Messages
3,665
oooo yeah, those look identical! Sorry I mislead you!! But then again I wouldn't buy from a place that isn't affiliated with PS. I hope that you find what you're looking for!
 

CopperTop

Rough_Rock
Joined
May 5, 2012
Messages
72
It's time to stop arguing that someone somewhere said something you want to hear. It seems like you are trying to justify this purchase and you don't like what you hear. That IS is eerily perfect and a trades person agrees. There are some vendors with very trustworthy opinions but I do not think that is true for the staff at brilliance.com. So my personal opinion is I wouldn't spend my money there on anything no matter how great a deal it seems.
 

John Pollard

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
May 1, 2008
Messages
3,563
Here is what I can offer:

1. Based on its basic numbers the diamond is likely to be beautiful.
2. In my experience the diamond in the ideal-scope image is not the one from the grading report.
3. The ideal-scope image posted does appear identical to images made in Whiteflash's setup.

I can also offer that, while I don't know Julie personally, she is one of the most knowledgeable and dedicated consumer posters here. I sincerely believe her main reason for contributing is to offer help and consumer protection... Sometimes, in any social media, the written word can seem impersonal.

RE The Ideal-Scope: Unless the laws of optical physics have changed, I don't believe the ideal-scope shows a diamond with 59 table and 41/32.5 primary angles.

I've invited the maker of the Ideal-Scope to come make comment in this thread.
Feel free to invite the folks from Brilliance or their cutter here to make comment. If it's my mistake I'll gladly apologize.

As I said on page one, I see no problem with the basic numbers. Prior to the ideal-scope question everything was moving smoothly for me. In the end, you must decide how much attention you'll give this. I predict the diamond will be lovely. If it ends there for you, no problem...you have things to do, other than spend your time worrying about scientific photography assessment on a diamond forum. There is concern here, simply because in the world of internet diamond sales, and communications via this forum, correct imagery and setup equivalency are big deals.

In the meantime, I hope you're enjoying the input and dialogue. It's an interesting case.
 

diamondseeker2006

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jan 11, 2006
Messages
55,734
Wow, Julie is one of the most knowledgable and helpful people here. I think she is owed an apology.

If that was the greatest stone on earth, I wouldn't buy it because of the false idealscope image, stolen at that. If the cutter did it, the gemologist surely would know it didn't go with that stone (and if he doesn't, he doesn't know very much about diamonds and that makes everything he has said suspect!). For that matter, I can tell the tables don't match. And if the diamond seller sent the idealscope image himself and blamed the cutter, then he is doubly to blame.

You may not like what we say, but we try to be honest to people who come here for advice. Buying diamonds is an expensive and sometimes dangerous business, and this is a good illustration of why.
 

Dancing Fire

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Apr 3, 2004
Messages
31,812
JulieN|1362597865|3398154 said:
Maybe John Pollard will check back in...

but I am suspicious of that IS.
me too!! these arrows are too fat for a stone with 80% bottom half
 

SMC

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Sep 30, 2012
Messages
2,035
Hmm, what kind of "gemologist" doesn't take his/her own Idealscopes while assessing performance and instead relies on ones from the vendor?

There's no way that a GIA XXX will be a total dog (especially to the general consumer), but if I were you, I'd get an appraiser or jeweler to look at that stone right away once you receive it to make sure that it matches the GIA report. You want the inclusions to match those listed in the certificate (and in the same positions) and the laser inscription number to match as well. I'm a bit skeptical of what is offered by this vendor given the exchange that happened here - you want to make sure that you are getting the stone that you paid for.

Good luck and congratulations on your imminent engagement!

Edit: I think Julie is a great contributor to the PS forums and she's been nothing but helpful. If you ask for advice, please be open to receiving it.
 

Garry H (Cut Nut)

Super_Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Aug 15, 2000
Messages
15,308
wbarnwell|1362608377|3398345 said:
bmendick1|1362596016|3398114 said:
Guys here is the idealscope image, what do you think?
image_298.jpg
is_ags-104052819011.jpg


^^^^ I could be crazy, but I am pretty sure that is the EXACT same ID image that came up when I google'd "perfect ideal scope image". It was taken from Whiteflash.com. I'm sorry but that is downright flagrant. I would walk away from the diamond now, if only for this being such bad business.
Hi All,
I have had a chat and email discussion with Jonathon the Gemologist from B.com and invited him to register and discuss this issue.

You are amazing sleuths. :-o
 

wbarnwell

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Jan 30, 2013
Messages
142
diamondseeker2006|1362614222|3398442 said:
If that was the greatest stone on earth, I wouldn't buy it because of the false idealscope image, stolen at that. If the cutter did it, the gemologist surely would know it didn't go with that stone (and if he doesn't, he doesn't know very much about diamonds and that makes everything he has said suspect!). For that matter, I can tell the tables don't match. And if the diamond seller sent the idealscope image himself and blamed the cutter, then he is doubly to blame.
I've got to agree with this. I just think it is insulting that someone, either the cutter or the gemologist, would pull a random ideal scope image of another diamond off the internet, and pose it as the diamond you are purchasing. That is a flagrant deceit, and I personally wouldn't do business with them, even if I did like the diamond. Its a matter of principle.

To the OP - I'm sorry that this happened to you, and I understand what you are going through. I am new to this forum, and just started my own search for a diamond/ring about two months ago. I have learned a lot, but I still have a lot to learn, and I know how intimidating the process can be, especially when you are talking to multiple people. Sometimes you don't know who to believe, but the advice you have been given in this thread is good advice, I promise. This is a big message board with a lot of different personalities, and a wealth of knowledge, and from what I have experienced, people have your best interests in mind.

I'm glad that PS has given Brilliance.com the chance to address this issue on the forum. I think that was a fine gesture on Garry's behalf, considering the amount of influence this forum can have on perspective buyers considering online vendors. I hope it all gets cleared up.
 

Ideal_Polish

Rough_Rock
Trade
Joined
Dec 28, 2011
Messages
25
Hi All,
Yes, you all are amazing sleuths! I think of those images as my children, and I recognize them anywhere. The image was literally plucked off the Whiteflash page, http://www.whiteflash.com/about-diamonds/diamond-education/whiteflash-diamond-imaging-961.htm , where we explain our images and how to put together the various pieces of information that they reveal to gain a full understanding of our diamonds. People not familiar with diamond light performance images may not know how unique they are. We take a lot of pride in the careful and accurate imaging that we do, and if it's an IdealScope or ASET or diamond image that was captured at Whiteflash, we can definitely recognize it.

Here is a link to the actual diamond represented by this IdealScope:
http://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-2676044.htm
 

bmendick1

Rough_Rock
Joined
Feb 16, 2013
Messages
24
Here are pics of the actual stone, please let me know what you think (lighting is in my office with florescent bulbs:
image_305.jpg
image_304.jpg image_306.jpg
 

diamondseeker2006

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jan 11, 2006
Messages
55,734
You just had the photographer who took the image you were provided verify that the image is his (and belongs to WhiteFlash) and it is NOT the one that belongs to your diamond, meaning that you have been purposely deceived, and you are asking us if we like the diamond??? :confused: :nono:
 

wbarnwell

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Jan 30, 2013
Messages
142
bmendick1|1362676575|3399129 said:
Here are pics of the actual stone, please let me know what you think (lighting is in my office with florescent bulbs:
image_305.jpg
image_304.jpg image_306.jpg
From the pictures, I think it looks like a nice diamond. If that is enough for you, and you aren't concerned with having a good relationship with a trustworthy jeweler who you may need to turn to if something happens to that ring, then I'd say keep it. We can sit here all day and tell you what we would do, but in the end that's completely up to you. I do know that if you decided not to keep the ring, the folks here would do their best to find you the best available diamond through one of the PS vendors. Good luck!
 

bmendick1

Rough_Rock
Joined
Feb 16, 2013
Messages
24
diamondseeker2006|1362691331|3399354 said:
You just had the photographer who took the image you were provided verify that the image is his (and belongs to WhiteFlash) and it is NOT the one that belongs to your diamond, meaning that you have been purposely deceived, and you are asking us if we like the diamond??? :confused: :nono:
Yes I know, the IS image appears to be a fake, whether that is the fault of the cutter or brilliance or both can be debated all day and all night.

I am really just looking for opinions from all of you that know what to look for in a stone on this very stone I have in my hands. I know you guys would buy from elsewhere, but I'm really asking you to give me objective opinions on this diamond and not worry about the IS image or whether it was fake. I do appreciate the advice about that IS image, I really do, but for now I just want to pic your brains about how this stone looks, I'm happy to take additional pics, please do this for me!!!
 

wbarnwell

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Jan 30, 2013
Messages
142
bmendick1|1362718717|3399734 said:
diamondseeker2006|1362691331|3399354 said:
You just had the photographer who took the image you were provided verify that the image is his (and belongs to WhiteFlash) and it is NOT the one that belongs to your diamond, meaning that you have been purposely deceived, and you are asking us if we like the diamond??? :confused: :nono:
Yes I know, the IS image appears to be a fake, whether that is the fault of the cutter or brilliance or both can be debated all day and all night.

I am really just looking for opinions from all of you that know what to look for in a stone on this very stone I have in my hands. I know you guys would buy from elsewhere, but I'm really asking you to give me objective opinions on this diamond and not worry about the IS image or whether it was fake. I do appreciate the advice about that IS image, I really do, but for now I just want to pic your brains about how this stone looks, I'm happy to take additional pics, please do this for me!!!
I think a few of us have chimed in and said that we think it looks like a nice stone; however, with pictures it becomes hard for people (especially someone like me) to speak too specifically about the diamond other than "that looks OK". After all, they are just pictures, and the best judge is going to be you, since you have the diamond in your hand. I know that this would be the same response given to anyone in your situation, with only raw photography you have taken yourself. This is the reason why people request ideal scopes, it is because they cannot tell from a picture what they can tell from that sort of imagery.

As for the IS image. It is not of the diamond you have in your hand. There are no reservations about it. So that much is not debatable.

What is debatable is whether or not you choose to keep your diamond. Many have told you that if you love what you have in your hands right now, then you should keep it, because in the end it only matters what you think of you, or your partner think of it. If you love it, and you have nothing else to compare it to, then I would understand why you would want to keep it. However, as I mentioned earlier, you were provided with some false information about your diamond. That information, in my mind, is near plagiarism. While I cannot tell you whether or not to keep the diamond, I can tell you that for me - someone who is also new to this process, and someone considering spending a great deal of money on an e-ring - I value a solid business relationships, especially when it is done over the internet. From what I have encountered, there are many reputable, and honest vendors who this site endorse that will provide you with legitimate, and useful information about their diamonds, such as an ideal scope image, ASET imagery, etc. Without that sort of transparency, this process would be like finding a needle in a hay stack. That is why I would lean toward someone who can provide the most information about your diamond before you purchase it.

In summary, there is not much anyone can tell you about your diamond from pictures than what you can see with your own eyes. You are the best judge of what you have in front of you. Just be cautious. You are spending a great deal of money! Make sure that whatever business relationship that you are entering into is transparent and honest. In the end, that rule will serve you much better than the diamond that you have right now, I promise!
 

Texas Leaguer

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Jul 27, 2009
Messages
3,202
We wish to thank the prosumers here that brought the unauthorized use of our image to our attention. Despite the pleasant tone of Tim Ewasko’s post (he is like that!), we do take the piracy of our images seriously and we do intend to get clarification from www.brilliance.com on their intentions regarding any future use of our images.

Whiteflash makes a big investment in imaging. We employ an in-house team of talented professional photographers who are making beautiful jewelry and diamond light performance images each and every day. Light performance imaging is critical to our diamond customers and, just like the gemological part of our diamond review, it is performed by a review team according to our ISO 9000 certification. Unfortunately, theft of those carefully captured performance images and artfully done creative jewelry images, is not a rare occurrence. And it is difficult for us to monitor this kind of activity and we therefore very much appreciate being alerted to it when it happens.

This forum, and the smart and caring people who participate, are performing a great service in terms of consumer protection. But it is up to individual consumers as to what they do with the information and advice they receive here. We believe that most people process it intelligently!
 

TitanCi

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Apr 23, 2012
Messages
738
This thread should be stickied as what not to do in buying stones. As a matter of fact, do we NOT have a sticky to help new members of what to do or ask for BEFORE purchasing a stone? I feel like there was someone who made a thread telling newbies what they need to ask for before spending money and THEN coming to this site (me included back then) asking if the stone they bought was awesome sauce.

Thank you, OP, for having this experience as it serves well to teach others of what to look out for.
 
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