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Need expert help - interesting situation!

cammoss

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jun 7, 2011
Messages
20
All,

First I would like to say thank you to the Forum here...as it has helped me immensely over the past month in getting a ring put together for my now Fiancée. (she said yes on this past Friday!)

I am in a bit of a good/opportunistic situation...and need some expert help:

One of my good friend's father works for a Jewelry Store/Importer in Florida (I'm in DC), and helped me put together an amazing ring. Initially, I agreed upon a 1.36 H , VS1, Very good cut, Brilliant Round stone. (EGL NY-USA) Having to buy this sight unseen, I took the notes, went to a store to see a comparable diamond, and went from there.

After the diamond had been set and shipped to me, he offered me a trade...which would save me $1,000. I could go from what was listed above...to a 1.48/vs1/J color, Very good cut, Brilliant Round stone. (I'll get the other dimensions out to the forum later when I am home)

My question is...is it worth it to save $1,000 on a stone that is larger (not by much) but has the same characteristics with the exception of the color going from an H to a J? It's set in white gold...and I know we're getting close to the cutoff. He's stated to me that it looks the same when sitting up...and I asked him point blank if it would be worth me spending the additional money, and he said "no...not worth it".

The ring now is gorgeous and she loves it...but is aware of what is "coming". Is this worth it money wise? Again, this is not an individual at a store in the mall...it's a friend's dad's colleague who works with wholesale diamonds and runs his own store...

Please give me any thoughts/suggestions that you have! Thank you everyone!
 

tyty333

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Dec 17, 2008
Messages
22,048
Here is a video that will give you a relative idea of the colors
http://www.vimeo.com/3288695

The most important thing about the stone is the cut. Are you sure you are getting a well cut stone?
 

cammoss

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jun 7, 2011
Messages
20
Here is the diamond in question. Should I get this?

1.4xct
Round brilliant cut
7.50 - 7.42 - 4.39mm

Depth 58.9%
Table 66%
Crown 12.2
Pavilion 43.6
Girdle: thin to medium polished

Cutlet small
Polish/symmetry: very good
Clarity: vs1
Color: j
Fluoresence: none


This will be in a setting with princess cut diamonds in a channel band, white gold.

Help!!!
 

slg47

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Apr 4, 2010
Messages
9,667
no I would not get that diamond. the table is huge.
 

cammoss

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jun 7, 2011
Messages
20
Take away from the table being huge...is it an OK diamond to use in a solitare setting? What are the negatives of a large table?
 

Circe

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Apr 26, 2007
Messages
8,087
cammoss|1307499818|2940424 said:
Take away from the table being huge...is it an OK diamond to use in a solitare setting? What are the negatives of a large table?
It means the cut in general will be wonky, and the light return won't be as good as it would be otherwise (which can make a stone look smaller and otherwise less impressive). Can you post the stats on your current stone for comparison?
 

cammoss

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jun 7, 2011
Messages
20
I'm working on getting the cert. Sheet on what I have now....as this was a rush job to get it to me. Again, he said it was these stones were very similar in looks, especially "up" in the setting. Based on the info above, do you believe that this diamond would still have pretty good fire/brilliance/sparkle? (I know this is an in person thing....but trying to get an idea.
 

Circe

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Apr 26, 2007
Messages
8,087
It gets a 7 on the HCA, which is pretty bad (HCA = Holloway Cut Advisor, which is a weeding tool used to find stones with good cut and proportions: you want something under a 2, ideally). HCA says it'll have poor fire, poor scintillation ... but excellent spread. So you're basically talking a big, dead-looking stone. I dunno if it'd be worth it for .12 points and one grand vs. two color grades and the, what, potential 10K you're already spending ....
 

diamondseeker2006

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jan 11, 2006
Messages
55,806
No way!!! Number one, EGL graded stones are usually about two color grades lower than stated as compared with reliable color grading from a lab such as GIA. So your H stone could easily already be I or J color, and the J color one could be K or L. Secondly, as others have said, the measurements on that stone are awful. It would have been good if you had come before choosing the first stone, too. But no point in trading for a stone you know is not so good.
 

partgypsy

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Nov 7, 2004
Messages
6,434
I don't understand how that 2nd stone would be rated as a "very good cut". What are the parameters EGL uses in cut quality?
 

dreamer_dachsie

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Dec 16, 2007
Messages
24,364
The J is not well cut.

Also, the price difference between the two stones is closer to $2000, based on the PS search.

So no, it is not a good deal. Do not make the switch.

And in fact, if your stone is cut like this J, I would probably return it and look for a better cut if that is possible.
 

Dancing Fire

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Apr 3, 2004
Messages
32,079
cammoss|1307494208|2940321 said:
Here is the diamond in question. Should I get this?

1.4xct
Round brilliant cut
7.50 - 7.42 - 4.39mm

Depth 58.9%
Table 66%
Crown 12.2
Pavilion 43.6

Girdle: thin to medium polished

Cutlet small
Polish/symmetry: very good
Clarity: vs1
Color: j
Fluoresence: none


This will be in a setting with princess cut diamonds in a channel band, white gold.

Help!!!
don't look good... :knockout: what are the specs on your H color stone?
 

CharmyPoo

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Dec 10, 2004
Messages
7,007
Circe|1307502426|2940455 said:
It gets a 7 on the HCA, which is pretty bad (HCA = Holloway Cut Advisor, which is a weeding tool used to find stones with good cut and proportions: you want something under a 2, ideally). HCA says it'll have poor fire, poor scintillation ... but excellent spread. So you're basically talking a big, dead-looking stone. I dunno if it'd be worth it for .12 points and one grand vs. two color grades and the, what, potential 10K you're already spending ....
Wow .. I don't think I ever saw one scoring 7!!
 

mrssalvo

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Jan 3, 2005
Messages
19,132
Definitely don't do the trade. If you love the ring as is now, leave it that way.

I'll add that it usually is a bad idea to buy diamonds from friends and "wholesalers." It's like borrowing money from family. It can go south very easily and rarely pays off :sick:
 

cammoss

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jun 7, 2011
Messages
20
Thanks all for what you have contributed...

Here's where we are. I have spoken off and on with my jewler about this and he's telling me that it's not worth the additional $1000 to keep the stone that I have because the two are both very similar. Even a month ago, I asked him "is it worth the upgrade", and he said no. Let me also be clear that this guy is not out to screw me over...and we aren't doing this in a back lot. It's just the distance (DC to Florida) makes me think twice about it all. He hasn't given me a reason to "NOT" trust him.

I understand that the people on this board are at the top of the top when it comes to diamond info. I'm not looking for the best $10,000 rock...because I'm not spending that. He's given me everything pretty much at cost, which setting+diamond is around $6,000.

Plain and simple, would this diamond in question look horrible to the common person? Also, I can't seem to figure out the "crown angle" as the EGL report only lists Crown Percentages
 

cammoss

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jun 7, 2011
Messages
20
Also, looking at the AGA/NAJA Cut Class tool, it doesn't score that bad....just on crown angle...unless I'm wrong:


Tab Percent: 3A
Crown Angle: 4B
Crown Height: 2A
Pavilion Depth: 2A
Girdle: 1A
Depth: 1A
Polish: 1A
Symmetry: 1A
TotalGrade: 4A


Length:7.5
Width:7.42
Depth:4.39
Total Depth:58.85%
Table percent:66
Crown height:12.2
Girdle (from):Thin
Girdle (to):Medium
Polish:Excellent / Very Good
Symmetry:Excellent / Very Good
Crown angle:12.2
Pavilion depth:43.6
 

slg47

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Apr 4, 2010
Messages
9,667
cammoss|1307629031|2941608 said:
Also, looking at the AGA/NAJA Cut Class tool, it doesn't score that bad....just on crown angle...unless I'm wrong:


Tab Percent: 3A
Crown Angle: 4B
Crown Height: 2A
Pavilion Depth: 2A
Girdle: 1A
Depth: 1A
Polish: 1A
Symmetry: 1A
TotalGrade: 4A


Length:7.5
Width:7.42
Depth:4.39
Total Depth:58.85%
Table percent:66
Crown height:12.2
Girdle (from):Thin
Girdle (to):Medium
Polish:Excellent / Very Good
Symmetry:Excellent / Very Good
Crown angle:12.2
Pavilion depth:43.6
total grade of 4A is below average/poor.

ETA we may be 'cut nuts' here but that is because cut makes such a HUGE visual difference in the appearance of a diamond. People have told me that my diamond is the 'sparkliest' diamond they have ever seen.

Here is a video that illustrates the difference between ideal cut and a 'common' round
http://vimeo.com/2225754
 

cammoss

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jun 7, 2011
Messages
20
I still feel like these numbers are off because I don't have the crown angle?
 

Dancing Fire

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Apr 3, 2004
Messages
32,079
cammoss|1307629721|2941616 said:
I still feel like these numbers are off because I don't have the crown angle?
strange.. :confused: ..my EGL-USA report show the crown and pavil angles.anyhoo,an rb with a 66% table doesn't look good.
 

kenny

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Apr 30, 2005
Messages
28,691
part gypsy|1307593126|2941358 said:
What are the parameters EGL uses in cut quality?
. . . Not a rough diamond.
 

Amys Bling

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Jun 25, 2010
Messages
11,025
Everyone on this forum is going to tell you that you don't skimp on cut. The better the cut the more sparkle and fire. With that being said need to prioritize what us important to you. With budget being 5,000-6,000, a 1.3 or 1.48 stone is large for the mo ey- to attain that you may be sacrificing color and the cut quality. It really depends on what us more important to you and what you think is pretty.

Pretty much anyone on here will tell you to only look at excellent and jdeal cuts scoring 2 or below on the HCA be ause cut is the top priority over size for the majority. So the answer to your question and what everyone on here will agree to is to get an ideal or excellent cut stone in your budget and see what clarity, color, and carat combinations you ate left with.


I am sure the stone you already have us beautiful and I wouldn't advise you to trade it for the lower quality one to save 1,000
 

cammoss

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jun 7, 2011
Messages
20
Amys Bling|1307633085|2941658 said:
Everyone on this forum is going to tell you that you don't skimp on cut. The better the cut the more sparkle and fire. With that being said need to prioritize what us important to you. With budget being 5,000-6,000, a 1.3 or 1.48 stone is large for the mo ey- to attain that you may be sacrificing color and the cut quality. It really depends on what us more important to you and what you think is pretty.

Pretty much anyone on here will tell you to only look at excellent and jdeal cuts scoring 2 or below on the HCA be ause cut is the top priority over size for the majority. So the answer to your question and what everyone on here will agree to is to get an ideal or excellent cut stone in your budget and see what clarity, color, and carat combinations you ate left with.


I am sure the stone you already have us beautiful and I wouldn't advise you to trade it for the lower quality one to save 1,000

And this I do understand...but if this was an "Excellent/Ideal" cut at 1.48 total ct weight...it would not be $6,000.

What I have right now, I think, parents think, Fiancee (#1) thinks is a beautiful ring with tons of sparkle. It may not be a good cut..hell it may even be a "fair" cut...but it looks great to me and all involved.

That said, if I have someone telling me that it has the exact same specs for the most part and looks the same "up" in the ring...am I wrong to go for it? $1,000 is a lot of cash to me to come up with after the fact...

Also, one reason why I feel that he's being honest and genuine with me is the fact that he's from day 1 saying "we can do what we need to do to make this work" and "that I'm not going to let someone spend more than they have to".

To me, its kind of like EGL grading soft in general to drive up prices on diamonds. If this guy was all about making cash and not caring, wouldn't he simply be trying to sell me the current diamond to get an additional $1,000?
 

lovebug1031

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Dec 18, 2008
Messages
348
If your jeweler is telling you its not worth it to upgrade and we're all telling you its not worth it to upgrade, why are you still questioning it? Stick with what you have, you both love it...and thats what matters!
 

Dancing Fire

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Apr 3, 2004
Messages
32,079
cammoss|1307633788|2941667 said:
Amys Bling|1307633085|2941658 said:
Everyone on this forum is going to tell you that you don't skimp on cut. The better the cut the more sparkle and fire. With that being said need to prioritize what us important to you. With budget being 5,000-6,000, a 1.3 or 1.48 stone is large for the mo ey- to attain that you may be sacrificing color and the cut quality. It really depends on what us more important to you and what you think is pretty.

Pretty much anyone on here will tell you to only look at excellent and jdeal cuts scoring 2 or below on the HCA be ause cut is the top priority over size for the majority. So the answer to your question and what everyone on here will agree to is to get an ideal or excellent cut stone in your budget and see what clarity, color, and carat combinations you ate left with.


I am sure the stone you already have us beautiful and I wouldn't advise you to trade it for the lower quality one to save 1,000

And this I do understand...but if this was an "Excellent/Ideal" cut at 1.48 total ct weight...it would not be $6,000.
nope it wouldn't...a top ideal cut GIA/AGS 1.48ct H VS1 will sell for more like $17-18k range.
 

cammoss

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jun 7, 2011
Messages
20
I think there is some confusion in this...after this many posts..so I'll apologize for that :wavey:

I have, right now.. a 1.38 VS1 H RB stone set. It's awesome...but to keep it would cost me an additional sum of around $1000

I'm sending it back to get my original 1.48 VS1 J color RB stone. This is the stone in question, specs listed above.

What's in question is that I love what I have right now...and it may not even be the best cut diamond. He's telling me that it's not worth it to keep the 1.38 H stone, because the 1.48 is practicly the same in cut and display in the ring, and it's bigger. Which is why I feel that if he wanted more money out of me...he'd be pushing me to keep what I have and paying him more $$$$. :halo:
 

cammoss

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jun 7, 2011
Messages
20
I think there is some confusion in this...after this many posts..so I'll apologize for that :wavey:

I have, right now.. a 1.38 VS1 H RB stone set. It's awesome...but to keep it would cost me an additional sum of around $1000

I'm sending it back to get my original 1.48 VS1 J color RB stone. This is the stone in question, specs listed above.

What's in question is that I love what I have right now...and it may not even be the best cut diamond. He's telling me that it's not worth it to keep the 1.38 H stone, because the 1.48 is practicly the same in cut and display in the ring, and it's bigger. Which is why I feel that if he wanted more money out of me...he'd be pushing me to keep what I have and paying him more $$$$.
 

Circe

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Apr 26, 2007
Messages
8,087
Dreamer_D|1307594653|2941379 said:
The J is not well cut.

Also, the price difference between the two stones is closer to $2000, based on the PS search.

So no, it is not a good deal. Do not make the switch.

And in fact, if your stone is cut like this J, I would probably return it and look for a better cut if that is possible.

cammoss said:
Thanks all for what you have contributed...

Here's where we are. I have spoken off and on with my jewler about this and he's telling me that it's not worth the additional $1000 to keep the stone that I have because the two are both very similar. Even a month ago, I asked him "is it worth the upgrade", and he said no. Let me also be clear that this guy is not out to screw me over...and we aren't doing this in a back lot. It's just the distance (DC to Florida) makes me think twice about it all. He hasn't given me a reason to "NOT" trust him.

I understand that the people on this board are at the top of the top when it comes to diamond info. I'm not looking for the best $10,000 rock...because I'm not spending that. He's given me everything pretty much at cost, which setting+diamond is around $6,000.

Plain and simple, would this diamond in question look horrible to the common person? Also, I can't seem to figure out the "crown angle" as the EGL report only lists Crown Percentages
Dude, you're gonna do what you wanna do, and right now it's sort of sounding like you came on the board because you just wanted a little cheerleading, which, for a poorly cut stone ... wrong place. Yes, this stone would probably look bad to the average person.

The problem is, diamond prices have gone up a TON in the last month, especially for the higher quality stones, so (LOOK at Dreamer's post), so there's the possibility that he's fobbing a poor-quality stone off on you with the option of reselling the stone you currently have for more. Or, hey, maybe not - maybe the stone you have now is also poorly cut. But without the stats, we can't advise you.

My default is not to be suspicious of jewelers (I come from a jewelry family), but, trust me: no business person wants to give you money. There is something in this for him, especially after the fact, once the stone has been set and paid for.

Could you please post the numbers on your original stone?
 

cammoss

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jun 7, 2011
Messages
20
I'm working on getting those numbers.

And in no way, shape, or form am I trying to come here for cheerleading. I'm not experienced enough to know what is a "good deal" and what's a "terrible" deal. The fact that market listed price is in the $8-9,000 range...and I'm getting it for $2-3,000 less...I'm wanting to know if its worth it.

Once I get (hopefully so) the information on the diamond I currently have...I'll pass it along ASAP.
 

Circe

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Apr 26, 2007
Messages
8,087
Okay, phew! The thing to keep in mind is, market price is also affected by cut, and the origin of the certificate. So an EGL stone will be cheaper than a GIA or AGS stone, and a poorly cut stone will be a lot cheaper than a well-cut stone. So you might actually be paying market value for the J - hard to say about the H. Will def. check in later to see about the H!
 
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