Need Advice on Discipling Little Kids

[Allison D.]

Date: 6/18/2009 4:26:17 PM
Author: Allisonfaye


It''s ironic but sometimes right after I punish either of my daughters, they tell me they love me. I hope it is because they know the energy it takes to discipline them is out of love.
And sometimes when I yell at Olivia, she says ''You don''t love me, Mommy?'' and no matter how mad at her I am, I always say I do love you, very much.

One of my most vivid memories of my mom disciplining me was her consistent message to me when I was being disciplined: "I love you, but that doesn''t mean I have to love the things you do."

She always made it clear that she was upset with the undesired behavior. She stressed that when she had to discipline me, it upset her just as much as it upset me and that''s why she wanted me to behave.

 

[Haven]

I'm not a parent yet, but I've really enjoyed reading this thread.

The methods some posters have discussed that include consistency, and allowing your children to experience the consequences of their choices seem spot on to me. I've taught children of all ages from kindergarten through college, and the two things that I've learned about disciplining them in my classroom is that I must be consistent, and I must never enter into a power struggle with them, because they'll always win. When you allow your children to experience the consequences of their choices you're eliminating the power struggle completely.

I don't really see a lot of parents with small children, but I see a lot of teachers with classrooms full of teens, and the teachers who are inconsistent and who enter into power struggles with their kids always have the most behavioral issues in their classrooms.

So interesting. I'm going to read the books mentioned!

 

[hlmr]

Date: 6/17/2009 11:08:17 PM
Author: VegasAngel

Date: 6/17/2009 10:22:23 PM
Author: hlmr
Consistency, natural consequences, and following through with what you say are all very important.

As far as spanking goes, I was spanked. I did spank a few times, but never felt good about it. It was always done in frustration, but if I had waited until I was calmer, I would never have done it. If I had it to do over again, I would choose not to spank my child.

Definitely agree.

I was spanked a handful of times as a kid no hard feelings. My mom was hair puller & that stands out in my mind. I do spank once in a blue moon & I really, really hate doing it because I know I have/had other options & wind up feeling bad later. There has been only one time I have spanked her that I felt ok afterwards. After I did it I got comments from strangers (I was in public) saying they wished more parents spanked

.

Yep, that's just it. Times have changed, and there are so many options other than physical punishment. They are little beings.... learning, testing, challenging, exhausting us, etc., but they don't deserve to be hit/spanked, whatever, by the ones they love, anymore than a puppy or kitten does. This is something that I feel strongly about at this point in my life. I have raised one child, who is now 15, but I have worked with a lot of children over the years, in many different capacities. I really do believe that you can raise wonderful, successful and independent children, who are not spoiled brats, without hitting them.

 

[TravelingGal]

Date: 6/18/2009 12:20:09 AM
Author: TravelingGal
FYI, I asked my friend for the title of the book. It''s called ''How to Have a New Kid By Friday.''

Figuring that it is never too late to read up on parenting techniques, I bought this book. My friend who read it is one of my dearest friends (I only have three, and alas, none of them live that near me...I must scare them away or something) and said she liked the book a lot. Moreover she said it worked extremely well for her for her 3-4 year old at the time. Figuring firsthand testimony from someone I respect is a good thing, I decided to buy it.

A couple of things to point out. My friend is very liberal, doesn''t believe in spanking or CIO, and not religious (she''s been known to call people "Jesus Freaks.") I note this because...

- The book is written by a Christian and does reference a few passages from the bible (I was really surprised she would even like a book like this and emailed her to ask her if she even knew it was written by a Christian)
- The author''s viewpoints clearly align with the more conservative

So, if things like quotes from the bible and traditional roles are going to bother you, don''t buy this book. The author clearly states in the beginning who he can help and who will roll their eyes at him and tell him he''s crazy. He has no problems with those people - it''s just that his book is not for them.

I read a few revews on this book and did end up liking it. Some parts of it are annoying, but I "got" the authors sense of humor. Some people may not like hearing children referred to as "the little suckers", so if you are PC and/or have no sense of humor, this book is also not for you.

Re: spanking. The author does believe in spanking, but clearly defines what spanking is, which is a "swat." This lines up pretty clearly with what I believe and I had no problems with it. A hand to the tush, one time, and never in anger is what he believes, and only when the act is "defiance." He doesn''t recommend it often in the book at all. He also says that if you were ever beaten/physically abused as a child, you should NEVER spank, as it carries too much baggage for you. I agree with this as well.

He defines three types of parents, Authoritarian, Authoritative and Permissive. Obviously the middle choice is the middle ground. I learned some interesting techniques to file away in the back of my mind that I think will be good because I do tend to be strict and could lean toward Authoritative. In fact, in the beginning of the book, I thought, this guy is too lenient for me! But then I realized he really isn''t.

It is a good book, but again, not for everyone as there is plenty to possibly offend if you don''t care for the traditional male telling you what good parenting is. I think if you are up for playing a bit of hardball, don''t mind religious references, and lean to the conservative side, this book could work for you. The book has 5 short chapters based on the days of the week (Monday through Friday) and then the bulk of the book addresses typical struggles with kids from A-Z. It can be used for toddlers to teenagers and is an easy (and sometimes amusing) read, although it can feel repetitive.

 

[TravelingGal]

Oh, also wanted to note that the whole point of his book is to find a way to end power struggles and yelling, giving your kids more "decisions" to make, and consistency.

 

[FrekeChild]

Date: 6/21/2009 3:22:02 AM
Author: TravelingGal
He defines three types of parents, Authoritarian, Authoritative and Permissive. Obviously the middle choice is the middle ground. I learned some interesting techniques to file away in the back of my mind that I think will be good because I do tend to be strict and could lean toward Authoritative. In fact, in the beginning of the book, I thought, this guy is too lenient for me! But then I realized he really isn't.

That's classic Developmental Psychology. He also wrote a book called "Sex Begins in the Kitchen"...I knew I went to culinary school for a reason!!!

This thread is interesting, especially considering I'm not planning on having kids...

ETA: BTW, I was spanked once as a child. I KNEW (at age 3) that if my mom resorted to spanking, then I was in REALLY big trouble. Never escalated like that again.

 

[TravelingGal]

Date: 6/21/2009 3:35:43 AM
Author: FrekeChild

Date: 6/21/2009 3:22:02 AM
Author: TravelingGal
He defines three types of parents, Authoritarian, Authoritative and Permissive. Obviously the middle choice is the middle ground. I learned some interesting techniques to file away in the back of my mind that I think will be good because I do tend to be strict and could lean toward Authoritative. In fact, in the beginning of the book, I thought, this guy is too lenient for me! But then I realized he really isn't.

That's classic Developmental Psychology. He also wrote a book called 'Sex Begins in the Kitchen'...I knew I went to culinary school for a reason!!!

This thread is interesting, especially considering I'm not planning on having kids...

ETA: BTW, I was spanked once as a child. I KNEW (at age 3) that if my mom resorted to spanking, then I was in REALLY big trouble. Never escalated like that again.

Yeah, I loved my psych classes and wanted to minor it in, but I figured that meant more studying.

Have you read that book? I am noticing he has a lot of books. I think I may get his "Making Children Mind Without Losing Yours" which is even more obvious about his Christian background. But I'm reading a few sample chapters on Amazon and finding it interesting enough. I'll probably get Parenting with Love and Logic too once I read a bit more about it. One thing I learned with all the sleep training is that it's good to read a lot about important subjects BEFORE the sh*tstorm hits!!

 

[TravelingGal]

I''m looking at parenting with love and logic right now on Amazon. This looks to be a book rooted in Christianity as well, so it might be like the other one I mentioned for some people who don''t want the references. The authors stance on spanking has changed though, it seems, from a yay to a nay.

 

[swingirl]

Date: 6/18/2009 10:35:45 PM
Author: hlmr
Yep, that's just it. Times have changed, and there are so many options other than physical punishment. They are little beings.... learning, testing, challenging, exhausting us, etc., but they don't deserve to be hit/spanked, whatever, by the ones they love, anymore than a puppy or kitten does. This is something that I feel strongly about at this point in my life. I have raised one child, who is now 15, but I have worked with a lot of children over the years, in many different capacities. I really do believe that you can raise wonderful, successful and independent children, who are not spoiled brats, without hitting them.

I agree. I have unspanked kids, 19 and 22. Amazing how we made it through the terrible twos and teen years without hitting. My kids are respectful adults and college students. They somehow learned to not hit each other, swear, or lie, they did most of their chores and yes, we got plenty of compliments when they were young from people who recognized their polite behavior. Both my husband and I grew up in non-spanking households. I am 1 of 2 and he is 1 of 6. There are parents out there who are able to do it without the hitting.

I've never met an adult that says they wish they'd been hit more. Or that they'd be better people if they were hit. Of course, many people have memories of being spanked and those usually are the ones who spank and say, look how well I turned out. Parents need to discipline more, though. I see kids of 30-40 year old parents get away with murder. But then you see the parent reinforce the bad behavior by giving in. I wonder if they give-in in public and spank at home?

 

[TravelingGal]

Date: 6/21/2009 4:26:14 AM
Author: swingirl

Date: 6/18/2009 10:35:45 PM
Author: hlmr
Yep, that''s just it. Times have changed, and there are so many options other than physical punishment. They are little beings.... learning, testing, challenging, exhausting us, etc., but they don''t deserve to be hit/spanked, whatever, by the ones they love, anymore than a puppy or kitten does. This is something that I feel strongly about at this point in my life. I have raised one child, who is now 15, but I have worked with a lot of children over the years, in many different capacities. I really do believe that you can raise wonderful, successful and independent children, who are not spoiled brats, without hitting them.

I agree. I have unspanked kids, 19 and 22. Amazing how we made it through the terrible twos and teen years without hitting. My kids are respectful adults and college students. They somehow learned to not hit each other, swear, or lie, they did most of their chores and yes, we got plenty of compliments when they were young from people who recognized their polite behavior. Both my husband and I grew up in non-spanking households. I am 1 of 2 and he is 1 of 6. There are parents out there who are able to do it without the hitting.

I''ve never met an adult that says they wish they''d been hit more. Or that they''d be better people if they were hit. Of course, many people have memories of being spanked and those usually are the ones who spank and say, look how well I turned out. Parents need to discipline more, though. I see kids of 30-40 year old parents get away with murder. But then you see the parent reinforce the bad behavior by giving in. I wonder if they give-in in public and spank at home?

I am sure there are plenty of kids who are spanked and turn out to be terrors and some that have never and are wonderful. But in my OWN personal experience, most children who are not spanked (properly) seem to have less consistent discipline over all. They are brats and I will tell you, 95% of the time, their parents think they have wonderful children and are quite self congratulatory. It''s the weirdest thing.

I''m am not saying it can''t be done. I am sure it can. I have a one friend who doesn''t spank and her kid (the one I mentioned above who recommended the book to me) and he is a good kid. But he has always had a good disposition to begin with and she was consistent with the method she chose. You have to find what works for your child''s disposition. I was brought up with a combination of learning consequences and being spanked when necessary (which wasn''t a ton, but enough). I remember my white friends telling me they were grounded, and I thought, "What? What kind of punishment is THAT? I would LOVE that." It would not have worked for me, neither would time outs (which I had never heard of back then) because I was a very solitary kid who had enough imagination to enjoy to time to myself.

I am not advocating spanking as a method of primary punishment and for every misdeed. It needs to be used wisely and appropriately and to be effective, sparingly. I may never use it if I can find things that work better (I am a believer in CIO but didn''t have to use that either since I started sleep training early). But what I do not agree with are those who say spanking is damaging to the psyche, blah blah blah. Beatings ARE. A proper spanking is not. I have never met a person who was properly spanked (and many in my generation and culture are) who was damaged by it or would not use it on their children if necessary. I have met many who were beaten (I''m not talking blood, but who were hit using paddles, belts, hangers where the blow landed where they may) and those people are scarred and would not use spanking because that''s what they believe spanking is. It is NOT.

But then again, we''re now in a culture who thinks it makes sense to try and reason with an 18 month old.

 

[TravelingGal]

One more note, some may find of interest...

TGuy''s mom''s discipline method of choice was the time out. Now, I AM a believer that time outs can be great. I''ve seen them work to great success. TGuy''s mom always made him sit in the corner of the room where every one was. She was made to go to her room as a child and LOVED it since she got to read or whatever, and didn''t think it was effective. So TGuy had to sit and face a wall while everyone went about their business.

When he first moved in, I noticed he had a really unhealthy habit of running out of the house or room whenever there was confrontation. This drove me crazy because he''d leave when I was mid sentence sometimes! It took a long time for us to figure out how to deal with arguments. A year or so into living together, we were having a serious conversation and I did let him know that I found it so disrespectful when he would storm away from me, even if the argument wasn''t heated! He went over it in his head and came to a realization that he HATED what his mom''s method of discipline was, so much that it scarred him with interpersonal relationships. He was so humiliated that he had to be in the time out spot in the same room as everyone else going about their business and wanted so much to just be sent to his room. So now, as an adult, when conflict happens, his knee jerk reaction is to escape, find a sanctuary and run away from the person who is mad at him. I found this so interesting because I never had been disciplined in that way. And I admit, I kind of found it disturbing because I was like, Hello! You are an adult and you act like a child!

As I mentioned before I''ve been beaten (by my dad once) and I''ve been spanked (only ever by my mother - she would not want my dad to lay a hand on me). I knew the difference as a child, without a doubt. One was done in love, one was done in anger (actually it was rage). You should never ever spank a child in anger because it makes it terrifying (or at least I''ll assume so from the one time I got beaten). TGuy said that his mother''s punishments were often doled out in anger, so even though she didn''t spank him, it messed him up a bit in some ways. My mother never, not once, disciplined me in the heat of anger. I have seen my uncle REALLY pissed off and hitting with a switch when I was about 6. Two families lived under the same roof (they had just immigrated and I was visiting) and the kids of the two families got into a fight. He blew up and everyone had to get on their hands and knees and no one knew who was going to get hit next. I didn''t get spanked but I was so so scared and crying out of fear that I remember the moment very clearly even to this day. So I completely understand why people think spanking is unkosher. Most of the time, the way people do it, it is.

Perhaps the moral of the story is that whatever method you chose to discipline your child, you should never let them forget that you love them through it all.

 

[Dreamer_D]

Stay with me, this is going somewhere

...

In social psychology, at the moment there is a lot of buzz about self regulation, which is essentially ones ability to engage in goal directed behavior and to inhibit initial impulses to behave in ways that are proscribed for some reason. There is a very well known social psychologist (Roy Baumeister if anyone likes to read the sources in the journals) who has begun to argue that ones ability to self regulate is the root of almost all good and bad social outcomes.

Although a simple concept at its core, we all know how hard it can be in some circumstances and at certain times to actually engage in the behaviour we intend, or to not engage in another type of behaviour. I personally find it hard to excercise, and to not eat candy

So although self regulation is simple -- do this, don't do that -- it is actually incredibly difficult in many different circumstances. Of note, one's ability to self regulate is completely dependent on one's mental and physical reserves of energy. If you are depleted in some way, then you just cannot do it -- depleted by being tired, distacted, embarassed, angry or emotional in some way, hungry... the list goes on and on.

I happen to agree with Baumeister that self regulation is the root of many of our life outcomes. And as a new parent, I think that self regulation is the most important tool in our arsenal. We make decisions every day about how we want to treat our kids -- what discipline we want to instill in their lives. But most of the time when parents talk about a break down in discipline -- or sleep training or any of the other million tasks we try to accomplish with our kids -- then I think that the real issue is not failure of the method, but failure of the parent to truly self regulate and stick to the method they have chosen.

When people say time outs don't work, or they say that "I've tried everything" then my very first thought is that they may have *tried* everything, but did they really stick it out? Were they really able to regulate their own behaviour and *not* take the easy way out? To sit and listen to their kid tantrum? To pick up and put down their crying baby 30 times in a couple of hours? Most of the time I think the answer to these questions is "No". If a parent is able to self-regulate and really and truly stick to their guns by applying consistent and appropriate concequences for *both* good and bad behavior, then kids learn very quickly how to behave.

There is more reason to be patient as parents and to be consistent than simple selfish desires for well behaved kids though

By being consistent and using our own reserves of self-regulation, we actually teach our kids how to regulate their own behavior. In an environment where there are no clearly predictable outcomes for good and bad behavior, kids don't have the opportunity to flex their own regulatory muscles, and so they don't learn self regulation.

My point in all of this is to say that if you find yourself yelling, feeling embarassed and overwelmed by your kids behaviour, or feeling like you are "trying everything" then you are probably feeling depleted and are not really being as consistent as you need to be with your kids. The types of tools that others are talking about here -- like time outs, like logical consequences -- only work when a calm and focussed parent applies those methods consistently and *until they work*. Yup, it is hard. The hardest thing we will ever do. But it is worth it and our kids will be happier knowing that their worlds are utterly and completely predictable.

 

[Dreamer_D]

Date: 6/21/2009 5:29:00 AM
Author: TravelingGal

...

Perhaps the moral of the story is that whatever method you chose to discipline your child, you should never let them forget that you love them through it all.

I think another important moral of your stories is that attempting to "discipline" your kids when you are out of control is very damaging. My hunsband''s father used to rage at his kids and yell and get out the belt sometimes. All when he was completely depleted and his bahavior was completely out of control. It is really scary to kids to watch their parents lose control, not to mention the damage that can be done when a parent meets out some strange punishment when they are in that out-of-control state.

There is rarely a situation so dire that a parent *must* respond in that exact moment. Sometimes, we need to cool down oursleves before we engage with our kids. If you can''t discipline your kid in a calm and focused manner, than give yourself a time out. If they aren''t allowed to tantrum and throw fits, then sorry, neither are we!

 

[mia1181]

Date: 6/21/2009 1:06:50 PM
Author: dreamer_dachsie

There is more reason to be patient as parents and to be consistent than simple selfish desires for well behaved kids though

By being consistent and using our own reserves of self-regulation, we actually teach our kids how to regulate their own behavior. In an environment where there are no clearly predictable outcomes for good and bad behavior, kids don''t have the opportunity to flex their own regulatory muscles, and so they don''t learn self regulation.

LOVE THIS POST DD!

I agree 500%! Two skills I want my kids to have are self-regulation and delayed gratification. If you are able to teach your kids these things, you are doing yourself and your children such a service. I can''t stress enough how everything has to be about "lessons" when raising children. Parents lose sight of the goal of raising a child, which is to develop an adult member of society. You need to teach them and prepare them for how their behavior will have positive and negative consequences.

I think everyone has their own parenting style but as T-Gal mentioned (and like Freke, I remember this from my Child/Developmental Psychology courses) the three main styles Authoritarian, Authoritative, or Permissive. Interestingly, Love&Logic calls them Drill Sergeant, Helicopter, and Consultant Parents. Drill Sergeants are obviously Authoritarian and of the "because I said so" mindset. Helicopter Parents are a form of Permissive parent because not only do they let their child do whatever they want, but "hover" around them waiting to come to their rescue at any moment. Lastly the "Consultant Parent" is the Authoritative parent who allows children to make decisions within limits and allow them to suffer consequences of their actions while they are young and the risks are not high.

I think it doesn''t matter what methods you use (whether 1,2,3, Magic, L&L, Spanking, Timeouts) as long as you are going to be that Authoritative/Consultant Parent. But as DD said, you find a style that works for you and STICK WITH IT.

 

[swingirl]

I wonder if the methods of discipline are regional and cultural. I don't know anyone who spanks. Not family, not neighbors, not friends. I grew up in the Midwest and as a kid remember hearing kids screaming and balling getting spanked and we all knew so-and-so was gettin' it! Maybe it was just the 50's and spanking was more acceptable.

For those who choose to spank their kids, what ages do yo think it is appropriate for and what age do you stop at? And if spanking is what works for your young child what methods will you use when they are too old. Or is there no age limit?

 

[D&T]

we used to do the time out "wall" if she left the wall with the sqaure tile before her three minutes was up, she start over, once she was there for over 20 minutes. then we always follow through with a hug and kiss and asked her why she was there and how to avoid being put in time out. Our other discipline was our count to five rule. pretty sternly, that if I or dad reached five then something that was priveledge was taken away whether it was a toy or dessert/ treat ( we rarely have sugared treats in the house, so that was extra special) and yes last resort is a spank on the bottom, not hard and not out of anger, just enough to know that she overstepped her boundaries.

 

[Allisonfaye]

Date: 6/21/2009 5:44:16 PM
Author: D&T
we used to do the time out ''wall'' if she left the wall with the sqaure tile before her three minutes was up, she start over, once she was there for over 20 minutes. then we always follow through with a hug and kiss and asked her why she was there and how to avoid being put in time out. Our other discipline was our count to five rule. pretty sternly, that if I or dad reached five then something that was priveledge was taken away whether it was a toy or dessert/ treat ( we rarely have sugared treats in the house, so that was extra special) and yes last resort is a spank on the bottom, not hard and not out of anger, just enough to know that she overstepped her boundaries.

We did all of this with our first daughter and it worked. She have never been a discipline problem. (Motivation yes, discipline, no). So it hit me like a ton of bricks when my 3.5 year old started to go nuts. I think it all started when she figured she can get out of her room at bedtime. I kept putting her back over and over and it escalated and she seems to enjoy the escalation. She laughs. She knows you are exhausted (at night). I finally solved that by putting one of those electronic alarms on her door that rings if she opens the door. She seems to actually like it (although she doesn''t want the alarm to sound). She tested a couple of times and doesn''t do it anymore. But the other behavior still continues.

We had two especially hard days when we went to family outings and she either missed her nap or took it late. (Please don''t tell me not to miss her nap and tired kids will be kids because I guard that nap with my life but my husband has a big family and we have to go visit sometimes). She just goes on and on, breaking every rule she can think of. You just don''t know HOW to discipline her anymore. I respect the ''no spanking ''stuff and I understand it. But quite frankly, when you have never been a parent, you just don''t know how it is with a strong willed child like this. I thought I was a great parent with my first daughter but it is just her nature to be good and it is my other daughters nature to test.

I ordered the Magic 123 thing today. I like the idea of a DVD. I just don''t want to sit and read a book right now and since DH hasn''t read one word, sentence or paragraph about parenting since we had kids, I have to spoon feed any new technique to him on TV ( a language I can get through to him). (Yes, I am mad at him right now. He made me go visit his mother today (after going to a party at his sister''s last weekend and dealing with her melting down) and I told Olivia no dessert because she was not behaving and she cried, of course, which is no big deal. So MIL gets all upset and CRIES when the kids don''t get dessert. So great. To keep the peace, I had to give her dessert. GRrr....

I am really in a bad mood.

 

[House Cat]

Date: 6/21/2009 8:03:14 PM
Author: Allisonfaye

Date: 6/21/2009 5:44:16 PM
Author: D&T
we used to do the time out 'wall' if she left the wall with the sqaure tile before her three minutes was up, she start over, once she was there for over 20 minutes. then we always follow through with a hug and kiss and asked her why she was there and how to avoid being put in time out. Our other discipline was our count to five rule. pretty sternly, that if I or dad reached five then something that was priveledge was taken away whether it was a toy or dessert/ treat ( we rarely have sugared treats in the house, so that was extra special) and yes last resort is a spank on the bottom, not hard and not out of anger, just enough to know that she overstepped her boundaries.

We did all of this with our first daughter and it worked. She have never been a discipline problem. (Motivation yes, discipline, no). So it hit me like a ton of bricks when my 3.5 year old started to go nuts. I think it all started when she figured she can get out of her room at bedtime. I kept putting her back over and over and it escalated and she seems to enjoy the escalation. She laughs. She knows you are exhausted (at night). I finally solved that by putting one of those electronic alarms on her door that rings if she opens the door. She seems to actually like it (although she doesn't want the alarm to sound). She tested a couple of times and doesn't do it anymore. But the other behavior still continues.

We had two especially hard days when we went to family outings and she either missed her nap or took it late. (Please don't tell me not to miss her nap and tired kids will be kids because I guard that nap with my life but my husband has a big family and we have to go visit sometimes). She just goes on and on, breaking every rule she can think of. You just don't know HOW to discipline her anymore. I respect the 'no spanking 'stuff and I understand it. But quite frankly, when you have never been a parent, you just don't know how it is with a strong willed child like this. I thought I was a great parent with my first daughter but it is just her nature to be good and it is my other daughters nature to test.

I ordered the Magic 123 thing today. I like the idea of a DVD. I just don't want to sit and read a book right now and since DH hasn't read one word, sentence or paragraph about parenting since we had kids, I have to spoon feed any new technique to him on TV ( a language I can get through to him). (Yes, I am mad at him right now. He made me go visit his mother today (after going to a party at his sister's last weekend and dealing with her melting down) and I told Olivia no dessert because she was not behaving and she cried, of course, which is no big deal. So MIL gets all upset and CRIES when the kids don't get dessert. So great. To keep the peace, I had to give her dessert. GRrr....

I am really in a bad mood.

Hi Allison,

ETA:I recommended a book called Boundaries, but I linked the incorrect book. I will have to find it and link later. (Sorry about that.)

If your child feeds on the fact that you are worn out or stressed, it is best that you learn to set boundaries with hubby, MIL, and others, so that you don't feel this way. You should also find a way for some alone, pampering, YOU time.

When we get pushed to our limit, our stress tolerance is nil. This becomes a real problem when parenting an active, high needs child. Your resources are too low and you are no longer effective. Sure, you're there ALL OF THE TIME, but you are too worn thin by stress to be the power house you need to be with a child like this. By power house, I don't mean this ultra disciplinarian. I mean a consistent, creative, parent.

Yelling and threats aren't discipline. So keep that in mind. Using fear will just cause a child to act out more. The child will feel insecure, so they will test over and over again to see if their environment is secure again. If you're so stressed that you're using yelling as a punishment, it's time for you to do something for yourself. Threats, they're just empty and incite fear. Like I said, neither of these things will change behavior. They will only cause your child to act out more (as you can see.)

Please understand, I know what it is like to parent a child like this. My littlest is so much like this and one of my teens was this way too. You try a bunch of different methods, until something works. Natural consequences (true natural consequences) and time outs do work for my son. But I'm very firm about the time out. It seems that the time out might be tainted for you because your daughter has already left the area and has no respect for it.

I know that my son requires certain things. If he doesn't get these things during the day, he WILL be awful. So, these things happen. Nap IS one of those things. If on the rare occasion my son doesn't get his nap, then for one thing, I don't expect him to behave perfectly. But second, I remove him from the stressful situation. You can't force this little person to act in a way that he is incapable of acting, you know? Another trigger for my son? SUGAR! You can literally watch it kick in within ten minutes of ingestion. All heck breaks loose. So, we don't give it to him in public. You truly do have to work around your children, until they are capable of adapting. Your daughter is showing you that she is incapable of behaving without a nap. So, either you cut the visits short, expect her to behave badly, or make her nap at the relative's house. There are no other options, as far as I can see. 123 magic isn't going to make her any less tired.

Your husband should be supporting all of these initiatives. Maybe you two need to have a real talk about this. You need to feel supported and your husband should understand that your daughter is only 3. Her brain isn't fully developed, and she is only capable of what she is capable of. You can't force a square peg into a round hole. If all else fails, there is always family counseling. If you think things are really extreme with your daughter, maybe you should have her evaluated by her pediatrician.

One last thing, I know it's really easy to type out all of this stuff. It all sounds so good on paper or on the computer screen, doesn't it? Living real life is so much different. I hope that bits and pieces set in with you on this thread and you are able to find a real solution to what is going on with your daughter. I know what it's like to feel at your wits end with parenting, to read all of the books, and to find that they were really difficult to apply in real life! You will get through this time. Get help if you need it, from wherever you can. This is tough stuff, you shouldn't have to do this alone.

 

[KimberlyH]

It sounds like you haven''t found her currency. If time outs don''t work it''s time to start revoking privileges (if you can''t go to bed when told you''ll go to bed earlier, or you won''t get to play with your toys in the tub before bedtime, or some other thing she loves about nighttime routine). If you can''t behave appropriately in public you will miss camp, or swim lessons, or whatever. The time outs don''t sound like they''re big enough to be meaningful to her, it''s a game, so make the consequences bigger, but still relavent, and perhaps it will help a bit.

 

[TravelingGal]

Date: 6/21/2009 3:06:35 PM
Author: swingirl
I wonder if the methods of discipline are regional and cultural. I don''t know anyone who spanks. Not family, not neighbors, not friends. I grew up in the Midwest and as a kid remember hearing kids screaming and balling getting spanked and we all knew so-and-so was gettin'' it! Maybe it was just the 50''s and spanking was more acceptable.

For those who choose to spank their kids, what ages do yo think it is appropriate for and what age do you stop at? And if spanking is what works for your young child what methods will you use when they are too old. Or is there no age limit?

Oh there is an age limit for spanking, but it''s hard to say when it is, because every kid is different. It was still effective for me when I was an older child (maybe 6 or 7?) They say though that spanking is most effective for toddlers 2-3 years of age. I can''t say because I''m not there yet.

I would prefer to use the logic and parenting style method, but very lovingly (the excerpts I read seem kind of...snotty). My mom used that in a way with me and it worked well. But even though I was the bad seed of the family, I really wasn''t that bad a kid. My mom swears I was a great kid, but I think her memory is short...I remember being extremely strong willed and prone to sulking.

When logic kicks in, that is the method I will attempt to use. I don''t believe you can reason well with a young toddler. Swats or time outs are what I will try then.

I firmly agree with the others, delay in self gratification is key. I''m trying to slowly condition Amelia to that now. They say that it is more an indicator to academic success than a smart kid. I found that interesting.

Kids don''t like discipline, but it has to happen. Swingirl, as you said no one wishes they were spanked more. But from what I know, no one wishes for more time outs or groundings either.

I don''t know if spanking is regional or cultural. Possibly. Asians did spank, or at least Koreans do. They used to do it in schools and kept it up for longer than US schools did, I think. Non spanking advocates also will say that minorities and people of lower socioeconomic status spank. There''s probably some truth to that too. Just like right now it''s the more affluent areas that are not vaccinating their children. Affluent, educated people are coming up with all kinds of theories about how to best raise your kids while maybe those less so are just doing what their parents did. Just a theory. And just as I don''t think not vaccinating your kid is the way to go, I''m thinking that all these new methods of rah rah, permissive parenting is not the way to go either.

Allison, I am sorry you are having a tough time. Your MIL sounds like a bit of a pain...and it sounds like you were dealing with three children instead of two.

Housecat, interesting note about the sugar. I wouldn''t have thought much about it before until I saw a friend (same one I''ve mentioned before who wanted to take up her son to give him chocolate chip cookies at 10pm at night...which was amazing that he was actually in bed then as he stays up past midnight) give her 3 year old son an entire Iced Blended Mocha. Honestly, I was horrified. I mean, cookies and ice cream, I at least sort of understand. But a caffeine, sugar loaded drink? We got back to her house where his cousins came over for a play date and he went ballistic, hitting everyone with his plastic baseball bat. She sighed and says he never listens when his cousins are over because he''s so excited to see them. I was dumbfounded that she had no inkling it might be the coffee beverage!!

 

[princesss]

Silly question and kind of a threadjack, but how do you teach a child delayed gratification? I feel like that should be fairly easy to reason out, but I''m drawing a blank. Is it just kind of a "No, Timmy, you can have that toy after you''re done eating your vegetables" or is there something more?

 

[KimberlyH]

Date: 6/21/2009 11:02:46 PM
Author: princesss
Silly question and kind of a threadjack, but how do you teach a child delayed gratification? I feel like that should be fairly easy to reason out, but I''m drawing a blank. Is it just kind of a ''No, Timmy, you can have that toy after you''re done eating your vegetables'' or is there something more?

It starts small, like your example, and grows from there. Long term projects such as gardening, building (e.g. toy house), painting (e.g figurines), anything that takes time and patience can help teach this concept.

 

[TravelingGal]

Date: 6/21/2009 11:02:46 PM
Author: princesss
Silly question and kind of a threadjack, but how do you teach a child delayed gratification? I feel like that should be fairly easy to reason out, but I''m drawing a blank. Is it just kind of a ''No, Timmy, you can have that toy after you''re done eating your vegetables'' or is there something more?

Nothing big right now. I don''t want to torture the kid to teach her this skill. But just little things. For instance, right now, she LOVES when I build a big lego block because she enjoys taking them apart brick by brick. Well, it''s kind of hard to build something big when she is grabbing at it as soon as I put two pieces together. So I just put my hand up and say, "wait, please" and maybe gently move her hand away. I finish building and hand it over to her and she goes to town. She''s gotten good at waiting until I hand it over to her but it''s still a work in progress. I figure if my brother can somehow train his dog to wait for treats, I can make Amelia get a clue with stuff like toys. Don''t worry though, I don''t make her sit and beg for a snack or anything!

So anyway, just silly stuff like that.

 

[D&T]

Date: 6/21/2009 8:03:14 PM
Author: Allisonfaye

Date: 6/21/2009 5:44:16 PM
Author: D&T
we used to do the time out 'wall' if she left the wall with the sqaure tile before her three minutes was up, she start over, once she was there for over 20 minutes. then we always follow through with a hug and kiss and asked her why she was there and how to avoid being put in time out. Our other discipline was our count to five rule. pretty sternly, that if I or dad reached five then something that was priveledge was taken away whether it was a toy or dessert/ treat ( we rarely have sugared treats in the house, so that was extra special) and yes last resort is a spank on the bottom, not hard and not out of anger, just enough to know that she overstepped her boundaries.

We did all of this with our first daughter and it worked. She have never been a discipline problem. (Motivation yes, discipline, no). So it hit me like a ton of bricks when my 3.5 year old started to go nuts. I think it all started when she figured she can get out of her room at bedtime. I kept putting her back over and over and it escalated and she seems to enjoy the escalation. She laughs. She knows you are exhausted (at night). I finally solved that by putting one of those electronic alarms on her door that rings if she opens the door. She seems to actually like it (although she doesn't want the alarm to sound). She tested a couple of times and doesn't do it anymore. But the other behavior still continues.

We had two especially hard days when we went to family outings and she either missed her nap or took it late. (Please don't tell me not to miss her nap and tired kids will be kids because I guard that nap with my life but my husband has a big family and we have to go visit sometimes). She just goes on and on, breaking every rule she can think of. You just don't know HOW to discipline her anymore. I respect the 'no spanking 'stuff and I understand it. But quite frankly, when you have never been a parent, you just don't know how it is with a strong willed child like this. I thought I was a great parent with my first daughter but it is just her nature to be good and it is my other daughters nature to test.

I ordered the Magic 123 thing today. I like the idea of a DVD. I just don't want to sit and read a book right now and since DH hasn't read one word, sentence or paragraph about parenting since we had kids, I have to spoon feed any new technique to him on TV ( a language I can get through to him). (Yes, I am mad at him right now. He made me go visit his mother today (after going to a party at his sister's last weekend and dealing with her melting down) and I told Olivia no dessert because she was not behaving and she cried, of course, which is no big deal. So MIL gets all upset and CRIES when the kids don't get dessert. So great. To keep the peace, I had to give her dessert. GRrr....

I am really in a bad mood.

Ahhh Allison, I am truly sorry - Oh I feel that you need a couple of weekends to yourselves without other family to regroup maybe? I know how exhausted you must be, our child is 3.5 and is full of energy, both me and DH work full time, DD goes to Daycare, and I know how exhausting that must be late at night, since my DH goes to school as well and its draining when a child just does not cooperate. Naptime is essential for us too. Yes she still takes one nap, otherwise my DD is cranky and is a bit nuts. Both DH and I are stern so DD knows that not one of us will waiver. I hope your DH supports you as well on your discipline. I know that grandparents just wants to give them "treats" all the time (mine did at least) but I made a rule and I have spoken to both my parents and my DH's parents that we don't reward mis behaviour. Sometimes my MIL or my mother will give DD a treat, but I will take it "to go" if DD is misbehaving and she will get it much later after she starts behaving - if not, the treat goes in the garbage at my house so neither parents knows about it

. I'm not advocating spanking at all, I never thought I would ever do it myself, but we were too at our wits end and well we did it and so far worked, its not a frequent thing, sometimes we go two weeks without a love pat on the bottom.

ETA: I also gave DD time out in public places again, it was a wall where ever we went (yes, it was embarrassing at times, but I would rather be a parent to discipline my child even in public rather than having them misbehave for however long we were out for). I know parents that use a cloth placemat that they took with them, it was compact and easy enough to take along, and used it as well in public place - a time out mat.

 

[mia1181]

Date: 6/21/2009 11:31:57 PM
Author: KimberlyH

Date: 6/21/2009 11:02:46 PM
Author: princesss
Silly question and kind of a threadjack, but how do you teach a child delayed gratification? I feel like that should be fairly easy to reason out, but I''m drawing a blank. Is it just kind of a ''No, Timmy, you can have that toy after you''re done eating your vegetables'' or is there something more?

It starts small, like your example, and grows from there. Long term projects such as gardening, building (e.g. toy house), painting (e.g figurines), anything that takes time and patience can help teach this concept.

Ditto. Anything that teaches them to have patience. Saving money for a special toy, or even waiting for Santa to bring a toy that the child wanted in June. For very young children things like taking turns, or cleaning up one game before they can get out another toy, or anything that teaches them "you can''t always have everything right now." It''s such an important lesson because it helps kids become hard workers, good with money, patient, etc.

 

[AGSHF]

Alisonfaye,

I'm sorry that you are feeling overwhelmed right now. I hope that you can find a straightforward solution that works for you. To be honest, and this is not a response to any particular post here, there are many differing opinions and approaches on how to raise a well-disciplined, respectful child. You can over-analyze and be overwhelmed. Each of us has a different norm or standard as to what we consider good discipline. I'm learning that each time my daughter makes new friends. What may work for some parents absolutely horrify me and I'm sure that they believe that their children are well-disciplined and well-mannered.

The bottom line is this -- you have to be comfortable with the means and ends. What standard of behavior do you expect from your child? For me, it was always pretty simple. I want my daughter to listen to me and pay attention to what I have to say. I try to be reasonable and choose my battles. I set rules and boundaries. Have confidence that you have your child's best interests at heart. Consistency is really the foundation. Therefore, any loophole or softening of standards because there are other players around -- husband, grandparents, sitter -- will throw complications into the mix. At the very least, both parents have to be in agreement. Grandparents pose a different set of challenges. I always tell my daughter that it doesn't matter to me what other adults allow her to do, be they her gp's, teachers, etc., but I am her mother and she has to comply with my rules. It doesn't always work, but she does ultimately understand it. I have been pleasantly surprised as she has gotten older how much of what I've put in there has stuck with her.

Oh, and you will make mistakes and lose your temper. Don't beat yourself up too much about it. Let your children know how much you love them and have a laugh over something else. And, don't forget to praise and reward good behavior as much as possible (preferably with non-material things).

Regarding the crying grandmother because of the denial of dessert, I have no words. Just plain silly. My suggestion -- fewer visits?

 

[Allisonfaye]

Date: 6/21/2009 11:53:31 PM
Author: D&T

Date: 6/21/2009 8:03:14 PM
Author: Allisonfaye

Date: 6/21/2009 5:44:16 PM
Author: D&T
we used to do the time out ''wall'' if she left the wall with the sqaure tile before her three minutes was up, she start over, once she was there for over 20 minutes. then we always follow through with a hug and kiss and asked her why she was there and how to avoid being put in time out. Our other discipline was our count to five rule. pretty sternly, that if I or dad reached five then something that was priveledge was taken away whether it was a toy or dessert/ treat ( we rarely have sugared treats in the house, so that was extra special) and yes last resort is a spank on the bottom, not hard and not out of anger, just enough to know that she overstepped her boundaries.

We did all of this with our first daughter and it worked. She have never been a discipline problem. (Motivation yes, discipline, no). So it hit me like a ton of bricks when my 3.5 year old started to go nuts. I think it all started when she figured she can get out of her room at bedtime. I kept putting her back over and over and it escalated and she seems to enjoy the escalation. She laughs. She knows you are exhausted (at night). I finally solved that by putting one of those electronic alarms on her door that rings if she opens the door. She seems to actually like it (although she doesn''t want the alarm to sound). She tested a couple of times and doesn''t do it anymore. But the other behavior still continues.

We had two especially hard days when we went to family outings and she either missed her nap or took it late. (Please don''t tell me not to miss her nap and tired kids will be kids because I guard that nap with my life but my husband has a big family and we have to go visit sometimes). She just goes on and on, breaking every rule she can think of. You just don''t know HOW to discipline her anymore. I respect the ''no spanking ''stuff and I understand it. But quite frankly, when you have never been a parent, you just don''t know how it is with a strong willed child like this. I thought I was a great parent with my first daughter but it is just her nature to be good and it is my other daughters nature to test.

I ordered the Magic 123 thing today. I like the idea of a DVD. I just don''t want to sit and read a book right now and since DH hasn''t read one word, sentence or paragraph about parenting since we had kids, I have to spoon feed any new technique to him on TV ( a language I can get through to him). (Yes, I am mad at him right now. He made me go visit his mother today (after going to a party at his sister''s last weekend and dealing with her melting down) and I told Olivia no dessert because she was not behaving and she cried, of course, which is no big deal. So MIL gets all upset and CRIES when the kids don''t get dessert. So great. To keep the peace, I had to give her dessert. GRrr....

I am really in a bad mood.

Ahhh Allison, I am truly sorry - Oh I feel that you need a couple of weekends to yourselves without other family to regroup maybe? I know how exhausted you must be, our child is 3.5 and is full of energy, both me and DH work full time, DD goes to Daycare, and I know how exhausting that must be late at night, since my DH goes to school as well and its draining when a child just does not cooperate. Naptime is essential for us too. Yes she still takes one nap, otherwise my DD is cranky and is a bit nuts. Both DH and I are stern so DD knows that not one of us will waiver. I hope your DH supports you as well on your discipline. I know that grandparents just wants to give them ''treats'' all the time (mine did at least) but I made a rule and I have spoken to both my parents and my DH''s parents that we don''t reward mis behaviour. Sometimes my MIL or my mother will give DD a treat, but I will take it ''to go'' if DD is misbehaving and she will get it much later after she starts behaving - if not, the treat goes in the garbage at my house so neither parents knows about it

. I''m not advocating spanking at all, I never thought I would ever do it myself, but we were too at our wits end and well we did it and so far worked, its not a frequent thing, sometimes we go two weeks without a love pat on the bottom.

ETA: I also gave DD time out in public places again, it was a wall where ever we went (yes, it was embarrassing at times, but I would rather be a parent to discipline my child even in public rather than having them misbehave for however long we were out for). I know parents that use a cloth placemat that they took with them, it was compact and easy enough to take along, and used it as well in public place - a time out mat.

Interestingly, we don''t have a big problem in public. I can usually engage them in a way that keeps them happy. Like if I take them to the grocery. Will you hep me find this or that? They love the samples at Whole Foods. Really, sadly, the only currency I can find that Olivia seems to have is food. But that is opening a whole other can of worms, I think.

 

[FrekeChild]

Date: 6/21/2009 3:59:57 AM
Author: TravelingGal

Date: 6/21/2009 3:35:43 AM
Author: FrekeChild

Date: 6/21/2009 3:22:02 AM
Author: TravelingGal
He defines three types of parents, Authoritarian, Authoritative and Permissive. Obviously the middle choice is the middle ground. I learned some interesting techniques to file away in the back of my mind that I think will be good because I do tend to be strict and could lean toward Authoritative. In fact, in the beginning of the book, I thought, this guy is too lenient for me! But then I realized he really isn''t.

That''s classic Developmental Psychology. He also wrote a book called ''Sex Begins in the Kitchen''...I knew I went to culinary school for a reason!!!

This thread is interesting, especially considering I''m not planning on having kids...

ETA: BTW, I was spanked once as a child. I KNEW (at age 3) that if my mom resorted to spanking, then I was in REALLY big trouble. Never escalated like that again.

Yeah, I loved my psych classes and wanted to minor it in, but I figured that meant more studying.

Have you read that book? I am noticing he has a lot of books. I think I may get his ''Making Children Mind Without Losing Yours'' which is even more obvious about his Christian background. But I''m reading a few sample chapters on Amazon and finding it interesting enough. I''ll probably get Parenting with Love and Logic too once I read a bit more about it. One thing I learned with all the sleep training is that it''s good to read a lot about important subjects BEFORE the sh*tstorm hits!!

Hah! I chose a major in Psych to get out of my school''s fine arts language requirement. Little did I know, I was trading it for Stats.

I haven''t. But it sounds interesting. Sounds like my older three nieces and nephews could use it, considering that they are raising their little sister by themselves.

Oops, did I say too much?

Really though, he sounds like he''s smart@$$ enough for me to ignore the Christian stuff. (Seeing as how I''m all not religious at all...) Might be interesting to check out some of the stuff he''s written sometime. So no, I haven''t read anything of his...yet.

 

[swingirl]

Date: 6/21/2009 11:02:46 PM
Author: princesss
Silly question and kind of a threadjack, but how do you teach a child delayed gratification? I feel like that should be fairly easy to reason out, but I''m drawing a blank. Is it just kind of a ''No, Timmy, you can have that toy after you''re done eating your vegetables'' or is there something more?

One thing I see a lot of people do is feed their kid in the grocery store. It encourages a real lack of delayed gratification. I see goodies, I whine, I get goodies before they are even bought. If your kid is starving don''t take him grocery shopping but my guess is most people do it just to keep little Jr. quiet and busy. Actually I see people shoving food in kids hands all the time. Kids can''t be outside the house without a juice box and a snack. When I was growing up we ate breakfast, lunch and dinner. I didn''t know what a snack was. But today moms are made to feel guilt if Jr. is hungry for 15 extra seconds. Look at the flack Kate got for not giving her parched kid a drink (her bigger mistake was taking one herself in front of them). But really, no one in the US is so starved or thirsty that they can''t wait.

I''ve always heard using food as a reward is bad news, especially for girls. It sends the message that if you are good you get to eat more. Even dessert should be looked as the end of a meal (I never even serve dessert. My kids consider dessert as party food or a special-occasion treat) not a reward for eating. It really creates food wars and control issues but so many people were raised with it they don''t want to give it up. When you look around at people''s waistlines---well, there is a lot of rewarding going on.

Another place to practice is at the table. Asking for permission to leave, waiting until everyone is done eating. And I don''t go to church but as a kid I did. Talk about delayed gratification! After standing, sitting, kneeling and listening to Latin for an hour, I learned I could be hungry (couldn''t eat before church), thirsty, uncomfortable (patent leather shoes) and bored and amazingly enough SURVIVE!!

 

[KimberlyH]

Date: 6/24/2009 12:57:59 PM
Author: swingirl

Date: 6/21/2009 11:02:46 PM
Author: princesss
Silly question and kind of a threadjack, but how do you teach a child delayed gratification? I feel like that should be fairly easy to reason out, but I''m drawing a blank. Is it just kind of a ''No, Timmy, you can have that toy after you''re done eating your vegetables'' or is there something more?

One thing I see a lot of people do is feed their kid in the grocery store. It encourages a real lack of delayed gratification. I see goodies, I whine, I get goodies before they are even bought. If your kid is starving don''t take him grocery shopping but my guess is most people do it just to keep little Jr. quiet and busy. Actually I see people shoving food in kids hands all the time. Kids can''t be outside the house without a juice box and a snack. When I was growing up we ate breakfast, lunch and dinner. I didn''t know what a snack was. But today moms are made to feel guilt if Jr. is hungry for 15 extra seconds. Look at the flack Kate got for not giving her parched kid a drink (her bigger mistake was taking one herself in front of them). But really, no one in the US is so starved or thirsty that they can''t wait.

I''ve always heard using food as a reward is bad news, especially for girls. It sends the message that if you are good you get to eat more. Even dessert should be looked as the end of a meal (I never even serve dessert. My kids consider dessert as party food or a special-occasion treat) not a reward for eating. It really creates food wars and control issues but so many people were raised with it they don''t want to give it up. When you look around at people''s waistlines---well, there is a lot of rewarding going on.

Another place to practice is at the table. Asking for permission to leave, waiting until everyone is done eating. And I don''t go to church but as a kid I did. Talk about delayed gratification! After standing, sitting, kneeling and listening to Latin for an hour, I learned I could be hungry (couldn''t eat before church), thirsty, uncomfortable (patent leather shoes) and bored and amazingly enough SURVIVE!!

Just a big fat ditto.