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''Native'' cut stones

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Pandora II

Pandora II

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Aug 3, 2006
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Will people please stop talking in such disparaging and frankly racist terms about stones that are cut in their country of origin.

There are good cuts and bad cuts - where they were cut is not important.

It''s deeply offensive to tar some of the world''s finest cutters in this way.
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Thank you Pandora. I have a feeling some are drinking the kool-aid being passed around here.
 
Finally. Thank you!
 
probably directed at me and actually, i agree. and i think inclusions can just be absolutely fine also. depends on the stone and its use. and some stones are worth more with inclusions: horsetails anyone?

and it does give one time to pause: a georgia amethyst cut in the US is native cut also!

movie zombie
 
Exactly Movie Zombie. The term is not racist at all, it just means the stone was cut in the land it was found. An Oregon sunstone cut in Oregon is "native cut".
However in common usage, it has been used to describe stones that are also cut in Asia buy mass produced cutting houses. I wouldn''t consider these cuts to be some of the world''s finest. I have never seen one win a Gemmy award or any other cutting award.

I meet for breakfast each year in Tucson a guy who runs a cutting house in China. He told me that each stone is actually cut by several people. One only preforms and dops, then passes the stone to the next person who cuts and polish the pavilion, then on to another who transfers, then the next cuts and polishes the crown. Each worker in a shift must do at least 30 stones. In the same amount of time a "precision American cutter" would do 2 stones.

This makes me ask the question to Pandora and some of the others... If you were to commission me to cut you a stone, would you want me to polish it with 50,000 grit polish or 8000? Would you like me to polish the girdle or leave it unpolished? Would you like the meet points to meet, or would you rather have them off. Would you like the stone windowed? How cut it off center so it''s not symmetrical? Toss in a few extra facets here an there, or make the stone uniform?
 
Gene with all due respect. If I had some truely fine material I would be affraid to send to you for fear of to much going to waste.
 
Date: 10/7/2008 8:45:41 PM
Author: colormyworld
Gene with all due respect. If I had some truely fine material I would be affraid to send to you for fear of to much going to waste.
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I wouldn't hesitate to. For me, a stone is more about beauty than weight. I would rather have a beautifully designed stone that performs well than one that has a deep belly, for example, or is too shallow, just to weigh more or seem bigger. Deep bellies specially annoy me, since the extra material will detract from the stone, but the buyer thinks it is "better", since it weighs more. That extra weight is doing no one any favours!

If I had some fine rough, I would prefer to find the shape that best fits the rough and an interesting design that highlights the quality of the stones (whether fantastic colour, high dispersion or to minimize flaws, such as a slightly too dark stone). Given that, I would like the cutting to be as fine as possible. Certainly no windows, no "extra" facets or bad simmetry. I would prefer precise meet points, high polish and excellent finish.

I am a fan of precision cutting in general (and of Gene's in particular).

Pandora - the term "native" is being used in a generic, imprecise way, I agree. But it isn't racist. That is a very inflammatory term and shouldn't be used incorrectly. Call it nationalistic, if you prefer.
 
Gene,

We''re in no way impugning the American or German precision cutters. We''re merely objecting to the use of "native cut" by some as a perjorative. No offence meant.
 
I think the point is to judge the cutter by their skills, not by where he lives. I have a ''native cut'' stone and I am very happy with it. I buy stones based on color, if it is cut to bring out the best in color, I will take it regardless of if it was cut in its country of orgin or by a custom cutter.
 
Gene,

I have visited your website and I think your stones are to die for, they are gorgeous!!!!



Linda
 
If I had a peice of rough that was border line good/fine color. I believe a deeper cut could make the differnce in the final grading. Whether saturation graded as a 3 (very slightly grayish/brownish) or 4 (mod. strong). I'll take the mod strongly saturated every time. Pavillion depth and crown height can effect this saturation. Colored stones unlike diamonds are graded with the eye with no magnification.
 
Date: 10/7/2008 10:54:17 PM
Author: colormyworld
If I had a peice of rough that was border line good/fine color. I believe a deeper cut could make the differnce in the final grading. Whether saturation graded as a 3 (very slightly grayish/brownish) or 4 (mod. strong). I''ll take the mod strongly saturated every time. Pavillion depth and crown height can effect this saturation. Colored stones unlike diamonds are graded with the eye with no magmagnification.
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Doug, this is true, my pad in my avatar is a deep cut and the color and brilliance of this stone is breath taking.
 
Date: 10/7/2008 10:38:41 PM
Author: Lady_Disdain

the term ''native'' is being used in a generic, imprecise way, I agree. But it isn''t racist. That is a very inflammatory term and shouldn''t be used incorrectly. Call it nationalistic, if you prefer.
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What about the term "jungle cut," which is often used as a synonym for "native cut?" Neither term may be precisely racist, but both are condescending, derogatory and frequently inaccurate.

Many gems cut in Asia are windowed, asymmetrical, badly polished, with bad meets, etc. But a great many are not. To lump them all together is wrong. I think many American-cut gems have defects of their own, both technical and in their somewhat cold computer-based design. But many are very pleasing to me. Again, I think lumping them all together is wrong.

The great thing is that everyone gets to choose what they like, what they can afford, and what most pleases their own inner critic. People have been trying -- and failing -- to set rules for beauty forever.

Richard M.
 
Date: 10/8/2008 12:09:44 AM
Author: Richard M.
Many gems cut in Asia are windowed, asymmetrical, badly polished, with bad meets, etc. But a great many are not. To lump them all together is wrong. I think many American-cut gems have defects of their own, both technical and in their somewhat cold computer-based design. But many are very pleasing to me. Again, I think lumping them all together is wrong.

The great thing is that everyone gets to choose what they like, what they can afford, and what most pleases their own inner critic. People have been trying -- and failing -- to set rules for beauty forever.

Richard M.
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Well said Richard. Besides I dig those native cut Oregon Sunstones Dan Stair has been cutting lately...
 
lets just call em fish tank gravel
 
Date: 10/7/2008 8:39:18 PM
Author: PrecisionGem
Exactly Movie Zombie. The term is not racist at all, it just means the stone was cut in the land it was found. An Oregon sunstone cut in Oregon is ''native cut''.
However in common usage, it has been used to describe stones that are also cut in Asia buy mass produced cutting houses. I wouldn''t consider these cuts to be some of the world''s finest. I have never seen one win a Gemmy award or any other cutting award.

I meet for breakfast each year in Tucson a guy who runs a cutting house in China. He told me that each stone is actually cut by several people. One only preforms and dops, then passes the stone to the next person who cuts and polish the pavilion, then on to another who transfers, then the next cuts and polishes the crown. Each worker in a shift must do at least 30 stones. In the same amount of time a ''precision American cutter'' would do 2 stones.

This makes me ask the question to Pandora and some of the others... If you were to commission me to cut you a stone, would you want me to polish it with 50,000 grit polish or 8000? Would you like me to polish the girdle or leave it unpolished? Would you like the meet points to meet, or would you rather have them off. Would you like the stone windowed? How cut it off center so it''s not symmetrical? Toss in a few extra facets here an there, or make the stone uniform?
Click to expand...

The term itself is not racist, but the way in which it has been thrown about in a few threads recently has very disparaging and offensive overtones.

Statements such as:

"Native" cuts are rife - i.e. gemstones cut badly.


their top end gems are superb, the lower end can be native cuts.

I personally find very insulting. Why not just talk about a ''poorly cut'' stone if that is what you intend.

I have seen exceptionally fine cuts that have been produced in the country of origin on very basic equipment by very talented individuals.

The coloured stone section of Pricescope seems to be turning into a Cut Cult in the same way as the diamond section has - and that makes me rather sad. In the same way that I''m not an H&A fan, I''m not keen on gemstones that look like something produced by a graphic designer. Lots of people do like the arty ultra accurate precision cuts, but let''s not start throwing everything else out with the bathwater.

A lot of people come here to gain knowledge about stones and I think it''s misleading to imply that any stone that isn''t cut by someone with a string of awards to their name is somehow a lesser product.

You asked me how I''d like a stone cut - well, I have a stone that was cut in Sri Lanka, the meet points are excellent, there is no window, the symmetry looks great to me (would it be perfect if I had it laser measured and analysed? Don''t know and if that''s what it takes to know I don''t actually care). Haven''t counted the facets yet... but, you know what, my stone was cut by someone by hand and any tiny imperfections are just an extra facet (if you''ll pardon the pun) in the stone''s character.

I''m not by any stretch saying that stones with whacking great windows, that face up small because all the weight is in a too deep belly or that have meet points that are all over the shop are a good buy. But you don''t have to go to an American precision cutter to avoid them either.

Oh, and if we''re going to talk about cutting houses and people cutting different parts of a stone - well, it seems to have worked fine for the Antwerp diamond cutters....
 
Date: 10/7/2008 7:47:51 PM
Author: movie zombie
probably directed at me and actually, i agree. and i think inclusions can just be absolutely fine also. depends on the stone and its use. and some stones are worth more with inclusions: horsetails anyone?

and it does give one time to pause: a georgia amethyst cut in the US is native cut also!

movie zombie
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Actually not MZ, and I'm probably as much of a stone snob as you are
28.gif
.

(I like inclusions: top colour and no inclusions = pandora's radar says fake till proven otherwise)
 
---- In the same way that I'm not an H&A fan ---

Pandora, neither am I ! ! Such order bores me.

Just wondering, what are your favorite diamond cuts? Do you like antique diamonds? Which?

I have a cushion. It gives beautiful, Random, brilliance & fire.
 
This is a pictures of my sapphire that is set in a Mark Morrell platinum setting. It was cut at the source, and frankly, I know I wouldn''t love it nearly as much had it been sent to a precision cutter.

I am a fan of beautiful vintage diamonds: oec, omc, antique cushion. I prefer gemstones well cut in their historic style. I love antique and handmade jewelry. All in all I''m a fan of craftsmanship. I own beautiful stones cut by Dan Stair and Barry Bridgestock.

Pandora, I''m sorry you were offended. I think pointing out the potentially offensive nature of terminology such as this is necessary to broaden one''s perspective and acquire sensitivity. I hope you continue to enjoy the tone of this forum as it is, I agree, different than others at Pricescope.

Sparkle on, ladies and gent!!

DSCN2642.JPG
 
As I appear to have been quoted and this thread is probably aimed at comments I've made, I'd like to respond.

Firstly I am not racist and I find that incredibly offensive. I am a Christian married to a Muslim. I embrace all cultures and have lived in many countries. I may be many things but one thing I am most definitely NOT is racist.

I used the term "native" cut without any reference to where it was cut. I hadn't stopped to think about connotations that people may infer. I have collected and discussed coloured gemstones for many years and the term has always been used freely.

I apologise if I've caused offence to anybody but instead of being attacked, wouldn't it have been more polite to simply ask that the term not be used and substitute with "poor" cut. I would happily (and will) comply. I fail to understand why this couldn't have been mentioned in a polite manner rather than attacking for what is, after all, a poor choice of terminology.

As a relative newcomer to PS I can't say that these threads have made me feel welcomed.
 
The very simple fact of the matter is that native cut is an accepted trade term all over the world and is the proper term and there is nothing racist about it.
No amount of grumping about it is going to change that.
 
Not a fan of H&A and other "perfect" cuts, either--often can look synthetic.

"Native cuts"
Yes, it is a trade term that is widely used, but the use is often disparaging and incorrect. So many cutting centers are not the actual location where a gem was mined. Gems from Vietnam faceted in Chanthaburi are not technically native cuts.

I have a beautiful Oregon Sunstone from Dan Stair, but I don't consider it a "native cut," simply because the term is disparaging and the meaning has been altered by years of misuse.

I really don't think it means, "cut in the country of origin" anymore.
 
Date: 10/8/2008 6:17:20 AM
Author: Pandora II

Date: 10/7/2008 7:47:51 PM
Author: movie zombie
probably directed at me and actually, i agree. and i think inclusions can just be absolutely fine also. depends on the stone and its use. and some stones are worth more with inclusions: horsetails anyone?

and it does give one time to pause: a georgia amethyst cut in the US is native cut also!

movie zombie
Click to expand...
Actually not MZ, and I''m probably as much of a stone snob as you are
28.gif
.

(I like inclusions: top colour and no inclusions = pandora''s radar says fake till proven otherwise)
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i thought it was aimed at me due to a post i made in another color stone thread.....

Pan, you may be even more of a color stone snot than i am! and i mean that a a compliment!!!!!!!

movie zombie
 
Date: 10/8/2008 9:32:00 AM
Author: strmrdr
The very simple fact of the matter is that native cut is an accepted trade term all over the world and is the proper term and there is nothing racist about it.
No amount of grumping about it is going to change that.
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this is so very very true! i know i won''t be eliminating the term from my vocab. while i admit poorly cut is a more apt description, for me native cut means one of the cutting mills mentioned previously in which the stone is passed from one person to the next.

movie zombie
 
To me, "native cut" is the opposite of "precision cutting". It isn''t about where a stone is cut, but rather how: less precise equipment, focus on productivity and weight maintenance instead of performance, less focus on design and facet placement.

There are plenty of "native cuts" that where cut all over the world, including the USA. There are precision cuts all over, even though they are more concentrated in the US and Europe.

Should the market change its terminology? I hope so. Good terminology is important and gemology is rife with examples of bad word usage (cornflower blue).
 
Date: 10/8/2008 8:57:09 AM
Author: sonomacounty
---- In the same way that I''m not an H&A fan ---

Pandora, neither am I ! ! Such order bores me.

Just wondering, what are your favorite diamond cuts? Do you like antique diamonds? Which?

I have a cushion. It gives beautiful, Random, brilliance & fire.
Click to expand...
I like antique cuts best of all - especially OECs and transitionals.

My mother has a ring with pair of 0.25ct OECs on either side of a beautiful oval sapphire. It was the e-ring my father gave to the first girl he was engaged to and he gave it to my mother on their first wedding anniversary. Since I was a child those diamonds spoke to me in a way that others didn''t and it was only recently that I actually had a proper look at them.

The fire they throw off is incredible. I''ve had a chance to compare it with the diamond I found at WF for my brother''s fiancee''s e-ring and there is no contest for me - FSIL''s sparkles more, but it doesn''t throw the fire that my mother''s do.

The most beautiful diamond I have seen so far is Surfgirl''s transitional - which I hope to meet in person one day, sadly (and sensibly) she didn''t have it with her when we met in London earlier this year.

I have seen some lovely Old Mine cuts, but also some terrible ones.

Even with antique cuts, I still like very good symmetry - and whilst I LOVE open culets, I am VERY picky about the size of them.

Cushions are my favourite shape for coloured stones, but I like rounds best for diamonds.
 
Date: 10/8/2008 9:32:00 AM
Author: strmrdr
The very simple fact of the matter is that native cut is an accepted trade term all over the world and is the proper term and there is nothing racist about it.

No amount of grumping about it is going to change that.
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Well said, as usual Karl.



Linda
 
Date: 10/8/2008 9:32:00 AM
Author: strmrdr
The very simple fact of the matter is that native cut is an accepted trade term all over the world and is the proper term and there is nothing racist about it.
No amount of grumping about it is going to change that.
Click to expand...
I agree that the term is an accepted trade term and I have no problem with people using it at all - as long as it is used correctly ie to indicate a stone that is cut in it's country of origin.

It is not the term itself that I consider racist, or at the very least offensive, but the disparaging tones in which its use is intended rather frequently round here. I am certainly not the only person here who feels this way.

As you can see from other posts, people allocate the term a range of meanings to the term rather than just the one it actually implies.

All I am asking is that if people want to comment on a stone being poorly cut, that they say "this stone is poorly cut" rather than "this stone is native cut" to imply the former.
 
As a fairly new cutter, I had bought into the idea that "precision" cutting was always superior to "native" cuts. That is, until I bought some nice blue zircons last year in Chanthaburi, Thailand. They were actually well cut, but I thought that I could improve them by recutting. I was shocked to find out that recutting did not really help. The brilliance was improved, but the color was less saturated. It was a humbling realization that maybe these cutters know what they are doing (they''ve only been doing this for hundreds of years!) A well cut stone is a well cut stone - no matter where it comes from. In fact, I''m planning a buying trip to Sri Lanka in January and will make it a point to visit some lapidaries to learn more about their cutting and orientation techniques.
 
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