Three Cheers For Nancy Pelosi!

[partgypsy]

I think I have to change my original response to this post. I don't like name calling and "owning" people. But I have to say I agree with the way Pelosi is "handling" Trump. Speech ripping and all, she still ends up being 10 times classier than Trump will ever be.

Yes I disagree with Trump politically. But my main beef with him is that he is a compulsive lying con-man with a lack of a moral compass sitting in the highest office. It's not his politics I'm disagreeing with. It's his incompetence and corruption I am talking about.
I wasn't impressed with him during the campaign. I wasn't even sure if he even WANTED to be President, but was simply doing it as a stunt for his own ego boosting. But at least I gave him the benefit of the doubt once he became president he would understand the seriousness of the position, and do his best. The best for the American people (not him and his family and cronies). And at the very least let people who know what they are doing, do their job! Far too optimistic.
He is a terrible combination of incompetence paired with supreme arrogance and ego. He is not qualified in any shape or form.

I don't care what your politics are. The qualifications of being an AMERICAN means you should kick this bum out of office. So sad an entire party doesn't have the balls to stand up to him.

At least Pelosi (and the Democrats) do.

 

[soxfan]

There are NO more checks and balances, folks. Go USA!

 

[JPie]

There are NO more checks and balances, folks. Go USA!

Someone else gets the joke.

 

[Dancing Fire]

and do his best. The best for the American people (not him and his family and cronies).

Why are you bringing up the Bidens??

 

[OboeGal]

Again, we do not agree. I will pass on further dialogue. It seems that you want to go around and around -since we do not agree, it's a waste of time for me to state my feelings. You see, where I come from, we all roll up our sleeves and work hard. If we have tough times, we take on more work. Our country is filled with opportunity and yes, I agree that it's not all equal. The more educated tend to have higher wages, yes, the wealthy tend to become more wealthy as they are well versed on how to manage money and assets. This is what capitalism is all about. All of us have opportunity, just look around, turn over stones and find it. We all need to give back and help the less fortunate and assist them to find opportunity. But in the end I say...... get to work and make your own way. This is all I will say - and again, I respect your beliefs and thank you for allowing me to express mine. God Bless America.

"We all need to give back and help the less fortunate and assist them to find opportunity." And that is exactly the point of a robust safety net to balance capitalism. That is exactly what the Democratic candidates are trying to achieve.

 

[soxfan]

Why are you bringing up the Bidens??

 

[redwood66]

"We all need to give back and help the less fortunate and assist them to find opportunity." And that is exactly the point of a robust safety net to balance capitalism. That is exactly what the Democratic candidates are trying to achieve.

And in a conservative viewpoint this is not the purpose of the federal government. It is the job of local and state groups because the needs are not the same in every community.

Edit - there is a safety net available for the truly needy.

 

[smitcompton]

Hi,

All the talk about how poorly Obama did vs how DT has done is just not true. DT did not inherit a mess.

Obama inherited a 10% unemployment rate due to the financial crisis. He ended with the unemployment rate at 5%. DT got the unemployment rate at 5% and now is 4%. Oh yes, big change.
Now, I do like DF, but you can tell him the same thing over and over and he still will come back with, but her e-mail, bengazi, more jobs. He can't hear or read well.

The stock market which has never been a big concern of Pres, was driven higher in the Obama years than Trump's has. The drop in the stock market was of course caused by the Financial crisis. However the gain was larger for Obama than Trump.

Queenie, don't leave the thread. Yes, we don't like Trump, a lot. But we do believe that hard work should provide good results and rewards for people.. You can feel ganged up on at times, but I have learned most of the people here are decent and while some always like to argue, many just can accept your thoughts and opinions as you state them.

Obie had a thoughtful post in another thread and as much as the words were admired by me, I didn't really think compromise was a possibility at this time. Its DT I want gone and being nice will not do it. Nancy Pelosi is classy. It was an act of patriotism. In front of America. He lies all the time.

Annette

 

[partgypsy]

I'm from Illinois and yes there is an embarrassing list of mostly (or almost all) Democratic politicians who were crooked. Oftentimes they were not 100% incompetent, would do effective legislation or work BUT were also abusing their office for personal gain. They got away with it until it caught up with them and their own party would have to remove them. Just like Nixon. It doesn't matter the good you do, if you are crooked. Trust is so important for those in important public offices (I include judges in this as well).

Trump reminds me of Blagovich. A populist. Friendly, flashy, loved putting up signs about himselves at the taxpayer's expense. Blagovich is still completely confident he did nothing wrong (while sitting in prison). His call rather than being "perfect" was "golden".

 

[partgypsy]

And for those who have attacked pelosi for destruction of official government documents, first of all it wasn't an official record (a copy) and 2nd apparently they cannot "train Trump" from continually ripping up official governmemt documents! Someone's job, is just taping together documents he rips up! It's like a three year old with a coloring book and poor impulse control. Again with the utter blindness of the Republican party, no peep about trump on a regular basis destroying official records. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.politico.com/amp/story/2018/06/10/trump-papers-filing-system-635164

 

[Queenie60]

Hi,

All the talk about how poorly Obama did vs how DT has done is just not true. DT did not inherit a mess.

Obama inherited a 10% unemployment rate due to the financial crisis. He ended with the unemployment rate at 5%. DT got the unemployment rate at 5% and now is 4%. Oh yes, big change.
Now, I do like DF, but you can tell him the same thing over and over and he still will come back with, but her e-mail, bengazi, more jobs. He can't hear or read well.

The stock market which has never been a big concern of Pres, was driven higher in the Obama years than Trump's has. The drop in the stock market was of course caused by the Financial crisis. However the gain was larger for Obama than Trump.

Queenie, don't leave the thread. Yes, we don't like Trump, a lot. But we do believe that hard work should provide good results and rewards for people.. You can feel ganged up on at times, but I have learned most of the people here are decent and while some always like to argue, many just can accept your thoughts and opinions as you state them.

Obie had a thoughtful post in another thread and as much as the words were admired by me, I didn't really think compromise was a possibility at this time. Its DT I want gone and being nice will not do it. Nancy Pelosi is classy. It was an act of patriotism. In front of America. He lies all the time.

Annette

Thank you Annette. Wish everyone could be as gracious as you!

 

[AGBF]

All the talk about how poorly Obama did vs how DT has done is just not true. DT did not inherit a mess.

Annette is completely correct on this point.

My husband, who knows better, but likes to start fights with me, told our daughter today that Trump had given a wonderful speech. I had to remind her that Trump's speech was full of statements that her father, more than most people in the world, should be aware were false. I reminded her that there was a crash of the housing markets and a banking crisis in 2008 and that her father was placed in a special program: TARP. She did not remember the acronym. It was the Troubled Assets Relief Program. I have described his role in it before here. It was an emergency program program by the federal government to bail out the banks, which were too big to fail.

President Obama was elected in 2008 and it was he who led us out of the great recession. I asked my daughter if she did not remember that hectic period in which her father was seconded to the Treasury department, which does not employ bankers of its own, to help with the crisis. He had two cell phone; two lap tops; and two e-mail addresses during his time in the TARP program. One set was with his usual agency; the other was with the Treasury Department.

No matter what Trump says, it was President Obama who saw the United States through that very, very frightening time. I lived it day to day.

 

[JPie]

@OboeGal I think it’s admirable that you’re trying to engage with people across the aisle and have respectful conversations. ArkieB and I had a disagreement a few months ago about the effectiveness of such efforts and whether there was a point to it at all.

I think this article best sums up the uphill battle for anyone who tries:

The Billion-Dollar Disinformation Campaign to Reelect the President

How new technologies and techniques pioneered by dictators will shape the 2020 election

www.theatlantic.com

 

[redwood66]

It's a complete waste of time and uphill for anyone on either side. Especially here.

Edit - I only look at my friends' horse, cows, dogs, cats, and family pics on FB. Anything else is ridiculous.

 

[JPie]

It's a complete waste of time and uphill for anyone on either side. Especially here.

I would agree, but I assume for different reasons.

 

[redwood66]

I would agree, but I assume for different reasons.

Most likely.

 

[Tekate]

If you read this I think it shows pretty much why no one can change the mind of another.

Why Facts Don’t Change Our Minds

Why don't facts change our minds? This article explains the logic of false beliefs and proposes a better system for constructive conversation.

jamesclear.com

 

[Garnetgirl]

If you read this I think it shows pretty much why no one can change the mind of another.

Why Facts Don’t Change Our Minds

Why don't facts change our minds? This article explains the logic of false beliefs and proposes a better system for constructive conversation.

jamesclear.com

I already read this article a while ago, and I’ve just reread it. Lots of truth there, @Tekate, unfortunately! It would just seem so intuitive that facts could change peoples’ minds. Having a science background, I always thought that way myself. However, his explanation (the facts) has changed MY mind about this!

 

[Dancing Fire]

"We all need to give back and help the less fortunate and assist them to find opportunity." And that is exactly the point of a robust safety net to balance capitalism. That is exactly what the Democratic candidates are trying to achieve.

A safety net yes!. A career as a welfare/food stamp recipient NO!...go get a job!

 

[OboeGal]

And in a conservative viewpoint this is not the purpose of the federal government. It is the job of local and state groups because the needs are not the same in every community.

Edit - there is a safety net available for the truly needy.

I would be fine with aid being administered at the local and state levels - it makes sense to me that there would be better awareness of local need. However, there would probably need to be some requirement at the federal level that certain minimum criteria need to be met everywhere.

In my opinion, the state of safety net(s) in the US is inadequate. Programs are fragmented and often poorly run; navigating what help might be available is utterly overwhelming for people; health care - especially mental health care - is a disaster, especially financially, as is elder care; new parents with babies aren't getting the leave they need to adjust to the stresses of infant care, and are often these days too far away from their own family members to get the help they need and would have easily gotten in times past; often tiny infants barely a month old are already in day care that is horrendously expensive; food aid is often not healthy food; and don't even get me started on the subsistence levels that people with true verified disabilities are trying to live on. I think a lot needs to be done there.

 

[OboeGal]

@OboeGal I think it’s admirable that you’re trying to engage with people across the aisle and have respectful conversations. ArkieB and I had a disagreement a few months ago about the effectiveness of such efforts and whether there was a point to it at all.

I think this article best sums up the uphill battle for anyone who tries:

The Billion-Dollar Disinformation Campaign to Reelect the President

How new technologies and techniques pioneered by dictators will shape the 2020 election

www.theatlantic.com

Thank you, @JPie. I'm trying. I may not be doing a very good job of it, especially when I get frustrated, but I'm trying to get at what is driving people emotionally to hold on to some beliefs and opinions so hard, and to talk about it more. My hope is that what is revealed are the areas where the ultimate goals of those who think they are in opposition are actually the same or very similar. The other thing I'm trying to do is show that we are not these dogmatic, black-and-white caricatures that partisan media and politicians try to paint us as to gain advantage or make money. The stuff like "All libs want socialism! All libs want open borders! All right-wingers are heartless racists!" blah blah blah. If we're not talking in some large number, calmly and rationally, about what we want and WHY, about what drives us, how will we know to question these caricatures of each other? Just in this thread, I saw some common ground between myself and @Queenie60, @redwood66, and even @Dancing Fire! They shared things that made it clear to me that they are NOT those scary caricatures, and I hope that they can see that I'm not like what right-wing media paints "libs" as either, and I'm pretty mainstream as far as lefties go. The media and politicians, frankly, have been utterly lying to us about each other to sew outrage, manipulate us, and gain money and power.

At this point, I want to look at the long game. Trump will either be gone in a year, or in 5 years, and then what? We'll all still be here (hopefully!), with a country that needs to move forward. I honestly don't want to fight about him anymore, because it's really about so, so much more than him. If we're not going to split into two countries, then we HAVE to form a coalition as a people, and frankly, I don't see why we can't IF we choose. We're all human beings; at the deepest level, the drives and motivations of the majority of us shouldn't be all that far apart. If we work from there, then the differences in our opinions about how to get there policy-wise will seem much smaller.

 

[OboeGal]

A safety net yes!. A career as a welfare/food stamp recipient NO!...go get a job!

We're agreed there. Every liberal I know agrees with this as well.

 

[AV_]

A safety net yes!. A career as a welfare/food stamp recipient NO!...go get a job!

I might have lived in all political systems hoc at hand, & from among windfalls, endownments & stamp collecting lives, I'd vote endowments. Time is not money, I am not a marginalist.

 

[AGBF]

No matter what Trump says, it was President Obama who saw the United States through that very, very frightening time.

I wanted to add this segment on job growth from a "Morning Joe" episode I watched a couple of days ago to this discussion. I thought having more facts would raise the level of discourse.

 

[redwood66]

I would be fine with aid being administered at the local and state levels - it makes sense to me that there would be better awareness of local need. However, there would probably need to be some requirement at the federal level that certain minimum criteria need to be met everywhere.

In my opinion, the state of safety net(s) in the US is inadequate. Programs are fragmented and often poorly run; navigating what help might be available is utterly overwhelming for people; health care - especially mental health care - is a disaster, especially financially, as is elder care; new parents with babies aren't getting the leave they need to adjust to the stresses of infant care, and are often these days too far away from their own family members to get the help they need and would have easily gotten in times past; often tiny infants barely a month old are already in day care that is horrendously expensive; food aid is often not healthy food; and don't even get me started on the subsistence levels that people with true verified disabilities are trying to live on. I think a lot needs to be done there.

And this is where we part ways. Federalism is about the local state deciding where and when to spend taxpayer funds without interference from the Fed Gov. Someone in Connecticut should not decide what is required in Idaho and vice versa. Poorly run programs is an understatement and why should we just pay more when no one demands that the current $ taken is going where it needs to? Giving government more money to mismanage is not the answer. If the problems are local then the voters need to address them locally.

 

[redwood66]

Thank you, @JPie. I'm trying. I may not be doing a very good job of it, especially when I get frustrated, but I'm trying to get at what is driving people emotionally to hold on to some beliefs and opinions so hard, and to talk about it more. My hope is that what is revealed are the areas where the ultimate goals of those who think they are in opposition are actually the same or very similar. The other thing I'm trying to do is show that we are not these dogmatic, black-and-white caricatures that partisan media and politicians try to paint us as to gain advantage or make money. The stuff like "All libs want socialism! All libs want open borders! All right-wingers are heartless racists!" blah blah blah. If we're not talking in some large number, calmly and rationally, about what we want and WHY, about what drives us, how will we know to question these caricatures of each other? Just in this thread, I saw some common ground between myself and @Queenie60, @redwood66, and even @Dancing Fire! They shared things that made it clear to me that they are NOT those scary caricatures, and I hope that they can see that I'm not like what right-wing media paints "libs" as either, and I'm pretty mainstream as far as lefties go. The media and politicians, frankly, have been utterly lying to us about each other to sew outrage, manipulate us, and gain money and power.

At this point, I want to look at the long game. Trump will either be gone in a year, or in 5 years, and then what? We'll all still be here (hopefully!), with a country that needs to move forward. I honestly don't want to fight about him anymore, because it's really about so, so much more than him. If we're not going to split into two countries, then we HAVE to form a coalition as a people, and frankly, I don't see why we can't IF we choose. We're all human beings; at the deepest level, the drives and motivations of the majority of us shouldn't be all that far apart. If we work from there, then the differences in our opinions about how to get there policy-wise will seem much smaller.

This is a good start to a conversation unlike the posts between you and @Queenie60 previously. If you assume that I, @the_mother_thing, Karl, Queenie, et al are some sort of monster caricatures then there is nowhere to go from there. Anyone making blanket statements about any group of voters is not worth the effort. I have never felt that all democrats are of the same hive mind as we are all individuals with our own thoughts and feelings. There will be no kumbaya on everything, there will always be disagreements. Which should be totally fine for a rational person to understand. The world and the US will not end because Trump is president no matter what some might think. It will be ok.

 

[Tekate]

This is a good start to a conversation unlike the posts between you and @Queenie60 previously. If you assume that I, @the_mother_thing, Karl, Queenie, et al are some sort of monster caricatures then there is nowhere to go from there. Anyone making blanket statements about any group of voters is not worth the effort. I have never felt that all democrats are of the same hive mind as we are all individuals with our own thoughts and feelings. There will be no kumbaya on everything, there will always be disagreements. Which should be totally fine for a rational person to understand. The world and the US will not end because Trump is president no matter what some might think. It will be ok.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Bought me a $11K refrigerator and some $13 a pint ice cream...WTG Nancy!! ..

https://twitter.com/x/status/1250530831547891713