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My GIA is buggin'' me

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Tarams

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Nov 26, 2001
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228
Yes, GIA is very strict/stringent with their grading. But I've also heard of employees who were "bought off" for grading (& subsequently fired). But I'm concerned about my report.

I have mentioned here before how it's graded E VS2 & how a very reputable jeweler as well as the recent GIA appraiser both felt that my stone was really a D SI1. I still haven't had an answer as to which is more valuable (E VS2 or D SI1). The only flaw I see (without a loupe), is noticeable through the underside, but I owuld think with a VS2, you shouldn't see ANY flaws at all (even though they're graded from above?).

I'm considering sending it back to GIA for new grading. Am I nuts?
 

rsilvers

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Oct 26, 2002
Messages
251
I have seen some VS2s where the inclusions were on the side, and some VS1s where they are right in the middle of the table. My latest searching involves paying less attention to the rating and more attention to what I can see myself. But I would never care about anything that could only be seen from the bottom. I don't know why you would get another cert. It will only lower the value if it comes in lower. But I do know jewlers who get more than one cert and use the better one.
 

Tarams

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Nov 26, 2001
Messages
228
What if the color is really a D?
And how do I know the proportions are correct? (Especially when I know the depth percentage is too high & I have no bow tie?)
 

rsilvers

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Oct 26, 2002
Messages
251
If they were under pressure to raise SI1s to VS2s, I doubt they would be under pressure to mis-quote the machine that reads the proportions.

An SI1-D is worth less than an E-VS2. Color changes value less than clarity.

Click the price-stats link at the top of this site, and have it print out some tables. Put in your carat weight and you will see that an E-VS2 is always 10% to 20% more in value than an SI1-D.
 

Garry H (Cut Nut)

Super_Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Aug 15, 2000
Messages
14,913
D SI1 cost less than E VS2, but not a big deal.

The depth % is the mm depth divided by the average diameter for rounds, or the narrow direction for fancy shapes. It is simple maths.

I really would not get all upset.
If you re submit the stone they will give you exactly the same grade because they never never never give a new grade (= admitting they were wrong).
They have a very good ability to identify every diamond they have ever graded in the past 8-10 years.

So all you could do is submit it to a different lab (but not AGS)
 

Tarams

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Nov 26, 2001
Messages
228
I wasn't aware of the formula, but it certainly worked! Thanks!
 

rsilvers

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Oct 26, 2002
Messages
251
Wow. How can they tell they graded a diamond? Is it a hash table created from parameters? Done on paper or with computer?
 

Rook

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Oct 4, 2002
Messages
294
Tara,

Both the color and clarity are going to be subjective, based on whomever grades it as others have mentioned. But you could go to a jeweler with a colorimeter and get the exact color of the stone. It will tell you if it is an E1, E3 or a D5. I am guessing around a D5 or E1 since they are so close that multiple experts could easily disagree on whether it was a d or e. Also I think they can run a colorimeter while the stone is set.
 

Rook

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Oct 4, 2002
Messages
294
At least as far as I have been told by a few GG's, jewelers and read, a colorimeter grades color of a diamond on a scale from D1 (the best) to D5, E1-E5,and so on for each color. I have actually seen one in action and it was quite cool. Now I am sure that there is some room for error. I will try to contact Sarin (the manufacturer) and see what they say!
 

BigLou

Rough_Rock
Joined
Oct 27, 2002
Messages
20
Everyone has hit the topic pretty well but I'll just add some of my comments too. In my opinion if the stone is a VS2 you shouldn't be able to see the inclusion without the Loupe even if the inclusion is in the table. I have seen VS2's that I have been able to make out the inclusion without the loupe...and I immediately dismissed them. I will also say that when diamonds are graded I rarely see individuals dispute the color of the stone. It happens but most people disagree on the clarity. I have seen many different stones graded at clarities that both I and the jeweler disagreed with the grading report. The truth is that when it comes down to it the grading is still done by people...who at times make poor decisions or really good decisions. If you aren't happy with your stone than I would suggest sending it back and looking for one that really meets your standards. That's my experience...I hope it helps. Good Luck.
 

Tarams

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Nov 26, 2001
Messages
228
Thanks everyone! Lou, the stone is definitely a keeper! But since the appraiser used a "master set of stones" I figured he was right about the D color. (Hey, if it's really a D VS2 then I'm ecstatic, LOL!)
I'm still looking into having a Sarin done. I'm sure I'll post with more questions once I have it! Thanks again all!
 

rsilvers

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Oct 26, 2002
Messages
251
I am reading so much everyday that my head hurts. I now am only considering stones where I can see the cert and clearly see the inclusions. Meaning, I accept scanned certs but not faxed certs. I have seen VS2s that I like better than some VS1s, and these are on AGA graded stones.

I mean, if the inclusions formed a perfect heart shape within the diamond, yet it was a SI2 -- would that not be more desirable than one with fewer inclusions?
 

Tarams

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Nov 26, 2001
Messages
228
Inclusions forming a perfect heart shape? Definitely a selling point! Imagine that, natures very own ~ gee, what do you think something like that might sell for??!!
 

rsilvers

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Oct 26, 2002
Messages
251
If the heart shape was really well formed, and it was proven a natural diamond, I bet it would sell for some large amount, like $50K to $100K per carat, even as an SI -- to some collector. Well I don't really know how much it would sell for, but my point is that some SIs are worth more than some VSs -- or at least better deals.
 

BigLou

Rough_Rock
Joined
Oct 27, 2002
Messages
20
I'm glad that it's a keeper. I wasn't telling you to just get rid of it. I was just saying that if you were really that unhappy with it then you should probably look for a better stone. I know what it's like to look for the stone that meets your standards.
 

Tarams

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Nov 26, 2001
Messages
228
I love the stone, I was just concerned about what I had heard about some GIA appraisers along with differences of opinion of my cert, but you've all helped me a great deal and I appreciate all of your responses, thank you!
 

Garry H (Cut Nut)

Super_Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Aug 15, 2000
Messages
14,913
I have been told by a freind that to discuss the issue of the grades with a GSR, the person who owns the diamond needs to find someone in the trade who will call in. GIA will not work directly with the public (and I think if the trade personis well respected that might help). If someone from the trade calls and asks about the diamond, they will be glad to discuss why it was given its particular grades. The practicality of re-submitting it for a re-check at that time.

I would be interested to hear moree about this from those in the trade :)
 

Richard Sherwood

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Sep 25, 2002
Messages
4,924
Any diamond can be resubmitted. If the grade comes out the same, you have to pay. If there is a change, GIA eats the cost.

About the subject of them keeping track of what they've already graded-

I'm not sure what the cut-off point is now, but in the past GIA has kept extensive computer records which are shared by the LA & NY lab on all stones 4 carats and larger, which automatically "flag" stones which are being resubmitted on an undisclosed basis.

Rich, GG
Sarasota Gemological Laboratory
 
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