My Experience Buying an Uncertified Diamond from Grace of JbG

[HappyNewLife]

Sorry if anyone tried to access this thread while it was down today. I thought I'd asked the moderators to remove a single post but there was a slight misunderstanding and they removed the whole thread.


Thanks. I'm glad the stone from your local vendor turned out to not be worse than a J VS2, and that he dropped the price by $500. Another great example of why we should make sure a stone is graded from GIA or AGS before purchasing.


Sorry, I should have specified that I wouldn't necessarily get appraisals for stones that are already graded. And thanks for understanding.


I'm glad you found a beautiful new diamond band with a vendor who had amazing customer service! It definitely sets the tone of the whole experience.


Thanks. At first I just wanted a general post for people to be aware of issues that could come up when they buy uncerted stones, but you all seemed to figure out the vendor pretty quickly, so there was no reason to mask it after that.


Reading your comment is what made me so upset yesterday, because I realized how many people this might have happened to. I'd never come on Pricescope before but it would have been nice to know about the other incidents before I made my vendor choice.


I'm sorry you went through that, but I'm glad you decided to get the stone back and later have it GIA graded, saving you thousands of dollars. I agree with your questions; if a vendor won't accept just any appraiser we choose, nor should we just accept a vendor's chosen appraiser. I think it would be better if a vendor stated in advance which appraisers / reports they accept.


Hey thanks for the tip. I took a look, but I think I want to wait for higher-colored stones.


Thank you, I appreciate that.


Thanks for your support. BTW how's your upgrade going?

I've got what I want reserved! I hope to post an update soon!

 

[PintoBean]

My wife spoke on the phone with Lynn Wolf at Just Appraisers and we would like to provide appraisals to four people on PS who have purchased diamond jewelry that was neither appraised nor graded. People like you, @metall!

Lynn explained that the appraisal fee is based on how long it takes for them to evaluate the jewelry piece, so I'd pay up to $250 per appraisal (1 hour), but you'd have to cover shipping fees and anything over the $250.

We hope this will offer a few people some peace of mind, regardless of the outcome.

So if anyone's interested, touch base here and we'll figure out the details.

Thanks @MollyMalone and @PintoBean for your appraiser recommendation. My wife said Lynn couldn't have been any nicer.

This is so generous of you guys! I'm pleased as pie that Lynn and your wife clicked.

 

[MollyMalone]

THUD. That's incredibly generous of you and your wife!!

 

[elle_chris]

How very Generous of you!

I've used David for all my large purchases and he's very strict when it comes to grading. He's always on the mark with my GIA stones (wish I could say the same when it came to AGS stones for color.. )
Also very detailed reports.

Only appraiser I trust in NYC.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

You two are very special and generous people!

 

[BlingDreams]

My wife spoke on the phone with Lynn Wolf at Just Appraisers and we would like to provide appraisals to four people on PS who have purchased diamond jewelry that was neither appraised nor graded. People like you, @metall!

Lynn explained that the appraisal fee is based on how long it takes for them to evaluate the jewelry piece, so I'd pay up to $250 per appraisal (1 hour), but you'd have to cover shipping fees and anything over the $250.

We hope this will offer a few people some peace of mind, regardless of the outcome.

So if anyone's interested, touch base here and we'll figure out the details.

Thanks @MollyMalone and @PintoBean for your appraiser recommendation. My wife said Lynn couldn't have been any nicer.

I used them too for my appraisal and they were WONDERFUL. Very thorough, helpful, and informative. I'm glad you're having the same experience!

 

[metall]

@MrBlueshift That is so so super generous of you!! Thank you! I actually do have an appraisal for my diamond that my insurance accepted, good to bad I don't know but at least it is insured. What I will need to do is get off my bum and have my 24k gold pieces insured and appraised at some point...but I wouldn't think that this is something for Lynn to do.

Thank you so much for thinking of me!! I am so grateful for your generous offer and I hope that others on PS who are looking/in need of this service will be able to use this..

 

[pyramid]

Don't you mean offering 4 people appraisals BEFORE they buy their diamond. Should this not be on a separate thread or are you trying to put down Grace's business by hoping pricescoper's who have bought from her will take you up on your offer.

Also I believe getting an appraisal after purchase will not offer them peace of mind if the grading comes back below what they thought they had bought. That is them then in the same position you were and very unhappy.

Surely buying old second hand stones from vendors does come with lower prices on non report stones. If you are not buying new stones with GIA reports then get your stone reported upon from GIA or whichever lab you choose. I have read that many here buy from Old World Diamonds with non GIA certs such as EGL and yet they seem happy with their larger lower colored diamonds, so what is different with Grace. Maybe they are her own appraisals but are EGL as good as GIA. We are told here on the forum that they are not. I think all 'certficates' are dubious even GIA as they are reports and not certs remember.

I may be wrong and it is generous of you and your wife to pay for 4 people to get appraisals but only if done in a manner which has nothing to do with Grace and her business.

I agree with the above also that she would not be helping her business by writing the words which come out of your mouth. She does not want to reply in that way and she does not have to.
As they say all is fair in love and war, and sometimes buying diamonds become war.

The onus is really on the buyer anyway, buyer beware at all times.

 

[marymm]

^ OP's appraisal offer does not appear to include any requirements that the ungraded stone must be a post-purchase JbG stone ... absent such language, why would you assume there are conditions to the appraisal offer, pyramid?

And, if it turned out 4 PSers availed themselves of the appraisal offer, and all 4 had JbG ungraded stones which appraised appreciably different, isn't that important news for PSers and other consumers?

This is a consumer forum after all, not a vendor protection club.

For that matter, if OP's offer is limited to post-purchase JbG transactions, I don't see how anyone (other than a vendor) could have a problem with that - their money, their offer.

In my view, vendors should stand by their products.

In my view, vendors should have reasonable customer service particularly in circumstances outside posted policies.

Vendors who don't stand by their products and don't offer reasonable responses to circumstances which arise outside posted policies, should be identified by PSers who are ill-served by such vendors, so that other PSers and other consumers are forewarned.

Just my two cents.

 

[LightBright]

I’ve been reading this thread and the previous threads by the OP for a while now. I just re-read the chronology and discovered that indeed a refund had been issued for this unusual antique stone. So OP was refunded the price he paid for the stone he returned. Good. Now I’m dismayed that this has turned into a witch hunt on a vendor who has a good heart, has great style, has a diverse/rare inventory and has set the bar for on-line vendor accessibility— providing numerous great clear photos in all kinds of light and high definition videos prior to sale. What other vendor (besides Erica at LAD) provides dozens of close up photos/videos on everything they sell?

Correct me if I’m wrong, but wasn’t the appraisal done by someone other than Grace? Can we give Grace the benefit of the doubt, that she believed the appraiser?

The OP described how other stones or rings in JbG’s inventory looked promising but turned out to be several times the price he paid for the original stone in question. Could it be that the price he actually paid for the original stone was a fair price for the actual characteristics of that stone? Has this ever been considered? (I’m sorry if I missed that part).

I think this was potentially a misjudgment on an uncerted, unusual cut, gorgeous antique stone that might have actually been priced just fine, considering the rarity of it.

I want to add that I have bought FOUR uncerted antique stones. They all had vendor “estimations” on weight, color and clarity. I’ve never bought a certified diamond! This is because in order to get a budget friendly price I’ve had to resort to pawn shops, EBay and estate sales (GIA certification is a risk, an effort and adds shipping, insurance and certification costs to the transaction). I know what my eyes like, I know my color tolerances, I know what makes a “quality cut”, and I know roughly what similar old diamonds cost. The key is what my eyes like. One of my stones was a lower color than stated to me, but the price was good and the cut is amazing. I do not like to get ripped off, but sometimes the rarity of the stone drives me to pay a little more than what I’d hoped. I try to be fair.

Grace’s prices seem fair to me. They seem to reflect what other vendors are charging. She has some expensive stones that reflect market demand (like all the other vendors do) and some budget friendly stones. I don’t think Grace was being purposely deceptive or sinister, and I would giver her the benefit of the doubt. Mistakes were made, she took a long time to search for a replacement, but a refund was ultimately issued.

If you are going to buy an uncerted stone, know your stone rarity, know your taste and budget. Some antique cuts simply can’t be found easily. If the diamond or ring is priced right for you, and you can’t find anything remotely like it unless you search for months or years, then negotiate a longer return period (key) and get it appraised.

 

[pyramid]

The original poster wrote:

My wife spoke on the phone with Lynn Wolf at Just Appraisers and we would like to provide appraisals to four people on PS who have purchased diamond jewelry that was neither appraised nor graded.

I have bolded the word 'purchased', this is where I got that information from.

 

[pyramid]

Another point separate from this is that Lightbright writes but it could be any of us that wrote this:
I want to add that I have bought FOUR uncerted antique stones. They all had vendor “estimations” on weight, color and clarity. I’ve never bought a certified diamond!


I think there should be a censoring thing on this site when people write the words, uncerted, certified, certificate. As we may know it and Lightbright may indeed too, but there is no such thing as a certificated stone. The words should be a diamond report as GIA does not certify any diamond, they only provide a report, NOT a certificate. I know we are thinking here on this report as a certificate as we feel GIA grades a diamond as what it is and GIA after all made up the diamond grade system, but this report is not a certificate, so that changes what is true but it does not appear to here when discussing Grace's business or even when we speak of buying diamonds in general on Pricescope. This makes me question buying new stones with GIA reports too, they are not definitely what the report says, even GIA says they can be wrong and grades can be either side of the typed grade. That means we are being charges more or less for the diamond we buy anyway when this is happening at the GIA as grading diamonds is not a definite just an opinion, there is no provable science that a D grade diamond is in fact a D and not an E.

 

[LightBright]

Another point separate from this is that

Lightbright writes about certificated stones:

I want to add that I have bought FOUR uncerted antique stones. They all had vendor “estimations” on weight, color and clarity. I’ve never bought a certified diamond!


I think there should be a censoring thing on this site when people write the words, uncarted, certified, certificate!. As we may know it and Lightbright may indeed too, but there is no such thing as a certificated stone. The words should be a diamond report as GIA does not certify any diamond, they only provide a report, NOT a certificate. I know we are thinking here on this report as a certificate as we feel GIA grades a diamond as what it is and GIA after all made up the diamond grade system, but this report is not a certificate, so that must change our beliefs in someway and it does not seem to when we speak of diamonds on Pricescope.

I agree that lab reports and the language we use around them should be accurate. Using the the term “certified” to describe a diamond with a lab report is inaccurate.

 

[MollyMalone]

The original poster wrote:
My wife spoke on the phone with Lynn Wolf at Just Appraisers and we would like to provide appraisals to four people on PS who have purchased diamond jewelry that was neither appraised nor graded.
I have bolded the word 'purchased', this is where I got that information from.

And what marymm had pointed out is that the offer wasn't limited to jewelry pieces from JbG:

^ OP's appraisal offer does not appear to include any requirements that the ungraded stone must be a post-purchase JbG stone ... absent such language, why would you assume there are conditions to the appraisal offer, pyramid?

 

[MrBlueshift]

Took a short break from posting online only to come back to this.

My wife and I are just trying to do something nice. There are no ulterior motives here.

@metall, since no one has taken me up on my offer yet, I'd be more than happy to extend the offer to your 24kt gold pieces. I think Just Appraisers would be happy to evaluate any of your jewelry pieces. Let me know! : -)

 

[MollyMalone]

I think this was potentially a misjudgment on an uncerted, unusual cut, gorgeous antique stone that might have actually been priced just fine, considering the rarity of it.

Could it be that the price he actually paid for the original stone was a fair price for the actual characteristics of that stone? Has this ever been considered? (I’m sorry if I missed that part).

Even if ~$6,000 is a fair price for what it is (Grace hasn't described it as an antique stone), Grace didn't market the stone on the basis of its actual characteristics. Beyond the listing description, she touted it as "a great price for a stone of that quality [as represented in the listing: I/J, VS2]."

Correct me if I’m wrong, but wasn’t the appraisal done by someone other than Grace? Can we give Grace the benefit of the doubt, that she believed the appraiser?

I don't think it's unreasonable to think that someone like Grace -- who's been dealing in diamonds for years & has a number of lower color, loose diamonds in her inventory that GIA or AGS has graded -- can eyeball a 2 ct. stone, graded by GIA as N in color, and realize it isn't an I or J (the 1-step difference in clarity is no biggie in my book).

But here's the fundamental problem I see with the "she relied on her appraiser" defense: she didn't have to rely on an appraiser. As her listing for the ring makes clear, the stone came to her loose, so it could have been sent off to GIA. At the very least, she could have had her "in-house appraiser" examine it -- before she had it mounted in the bezel setting. Not after, when it's tougher to accurately assess the caliber of a stone.

The vendor responded and said they were stunned at the grading the stone received, as it was appraised by their in-house appraiser soon after the stone had been set in the setting.
[underlining added by MM]

I'm hard pressed to come up with a benign explanation for that choice.

 

[whitewave]

There was also a discrepancy of about $250.00
In the refund amount IIRC

 

[MollyMalone]

There was also a discrepancy of about $250.00
In the refund amount IIRC

That was in the OP's favor, in a manner of speaking. He received a check for $6000; the agreed-upon refund was lower: $5750, representing a $2000 deduction from the purchase price for what JbG said was the cost of the ring mounting.

 

[Mondayschild]

Now I’m dismayed that this has turned into a witch hunt on a vendor who has a good heart (redacted)

As someone who has also read the thread, I think it is a learning point for buyers re taking calculated risks & the concept of "caveat emptor"

I don't, however, see it as a witch hunt. A witch hunt implies there's no fault on the part of the vendor - i think it's clear that, even giving the vendor 'benefit of the doubt', there were things that weren't handled well.

This post will undoubtedly affect her business. That's frustrating for her. People can make their own purchasing decisions.
The OP has a right to discuss his experience.

 

[flyingpig]

As someone who has also read the thread, I think it is a learning point for buyers re taking calculated risks & the concept of "caveat emptor"

I don't, however, see it as a witch hunt. A witch hunt implies there's no fault on the part of the vendor - i think it's clear that, even giving the vendor 'benefit of the doubt', there were things that weren't handled well.

This post will undoubtedly affect her business. That's frustrating for her. People can make their own purchasing decisions.
The OP has a right to discuss his experience.

Agree. The OP got refunded. But the process was arduous. There was nothing good about the experience.
It is a learning experience for buyers. Buyers need to do research and make purchasing decisions.
Having that said, the same can be applied to sellers. They need to make business decisions and carefully choose what products they carry and sell. They need to make decisions on marketing as well. Sellers have choice. They can avoid a dispute like this. It is their decision as well. You sell ungraded diamonds and find buyers and make profit. Great. But the likelihood of a dispute from an unhappy customer is higher. It is a risk Grace took, and it backfired.

 

[flyingpig]

Selling ungraded diamonds can be a double-edge sword. Sure, you are able to capture more customers who are very budget oriented. At the same time, you will be questioned about your products, business integrity, transparency, and customer service time to time, even if you provide full disclaimer and education to your customers.

Even IDJ could not escape from this until Yukutiel clarified.

https://www.pricescope.com/communit...nyc-while-im-in-la.228083/page-2#post-4118363

 

[MollyMalone]

I agree that lab reports and the language we use around them should be accurate. Using the the term “certified” to describe a diamond with a lab report is inaccurate.

True. Altho' I'll confess I've sometimes been tempted to use cert 'cause it's quicker, easier than AGS lab report or lab report from GIA.

It's not just mall stores & eBay vendors that use certificate and certified. You may be surprised to see that, e.g., Whiteflash, Good Old Gold, Leon Mege, and Leibish employ those words on their web sites.

 

[LightBright]

As someone who has also read the thread, I think it is a learning point for buyers re taking calculated risks & the concept of "caveat emptor"

I don't, however, see it as a witch hunt. A witch hunt implies there's no fault on the part of the vendor - i think it's clear that, even giving the vendor 'benefit of the doubt', there were things that weren't handled well.

This post will undoubtedly affect her business. That's frustrating for her. People can make their own purchasing decisions.
The OP has a right to discuss his experience.

I agree. I think the OP’s been very brave in bringing this up. This discussion has raised valuable points.

 

[anne_h]

I buy almost exclusively antique stones and jewelry now.

I don't know how others feel, but whenever I buy stones without GIA reports, I always assume they are are ~2 color grades lower + ~1 clarity grade lower than whatever they are listed as. That's a sort of rule of thumb I use with all sellers.

Definitely *not* saying that OP's expectations or opinions are wrong. Totally support everyone's right to share their buying experiences on PS. That's what it's here for!

Anne

 

[MollyMalone]

HI @anne_h -- not sure if you saw the original post in MrBlueshift's first thread, but he did contemplate that GIA would grade it lower than I or J:

If the grading had come back as K, or even L (neither with a brown undertone), then I wouldn’t have contacted the vendor as I know that estimates can be a little off.

 

[pyramid]

And what marymm had pointed out is that the offer wasn't limited to jewelry pieces from JbG:

I meant to reply to you MollyMalone last night, sorry I did not take in when I read it that it was not limited to pieces from JbG. I am not saying this is being done to degrade Grace's business, it is just the sceptic in mean thinking as it was on the same thread. As a truly altruistic gesture I would like to say it is a very nice thing for the OP and his wife to offer.

 

[MrBlueshift]

There was also a discrepancy of about $250.00
In the refund amount IIRC

That was in the OP's favor, in a manner of speaking. He received a check for $6000; the agreed-upon refund was lower: $5750, representing a $2000 deduction from the purchase price for what JbG said was the cost of the ring mounting.

UPDATE: I’ve waited a full month to receive a refund check in the right amount. Finally I wrote to Grace today to find out what was going on. Here is our exchange:

6:18 AM [MrBlueshift]
I just realized it's been a month since I requested a corrected refund check, and I still haven't received anything. Can you please give me an update?

7:25 AM [Grace]
The last email I sent to you, I mentioned to please cash the check with the over-payment instead as Chase would take at least 5 business days to do their investigation (make sure the check has not been cashed, lost, etc), and I did not want to delay the payment any longer.
Has the check not been cashed?

7:37 AM [Grace]
I am back - just called my bank and the check, indeed, has not been cashed. I can place a stop payment on that now, and re-issue the replacement. Please confirm, and I will have my bookkeeper do so immediately.

[I then forwarded to her the exchange of emails we’d had one month ago, to refresh her memory.]

8:43 AM [MrBlueshift]

10 October 2017 [MrBlueshift]:
I received the refund check in the mail today. The agreed upon refund amount was $5,750, yet the check is for $6,000. Please have a new check reissued in the correct amount. I will shred this one.

11 October 2017 [Grace]:
Oh, thanks for letting me know about this. I forwarded our email chain to my bookkeeper who the cut the check.
Have you shredded the check yet? If not, then please do not - the bank would take days to verify the draft has not been cashed, and it would cause a delay in a replacement. I know it's not a big amount, and I did not mean to overpay but I know you are already out on the setting portion, so please, I would be happy for you to keep that amount and save you the hassle of having you wait for the bank to send a replacement.

11 October 2017 [MrBlueshift]:
Although I appreciate you wanting to save me the hassle of waiting for a replacement check, I’ve already shredded it, so please have one reissued in the correct amount.​

9:10 AM [Grace]
I will put a stop payment on the check now, and issue a corrected one for $5750, per your request below. It will be a bank draft from Chase, just like the first one.

11:47 AM [MrBlueshift]
I hope you saw that my request was from a month ago, not this morning. I'll keep a look out for the check next week.

12:02 PM [Grace]
I'm sorry I completely misunderstood - I assumed you were ok with cashing the original check. The new check should be there by the beginning of next week.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I don’t understand how she could have misconstrued what I requested on 11 October, but whatever. Hopefully I will receive the refund check next week.

 

[msop04]

UPDATE: I’ve waited a full month to receive a refund check in the right amount. Finally I wrote to Grace today to find out what was going on. Here is our exchange:

6:18 AM [MrBlueshift]
I just realized it's been a month since I requested a corrected refund check, and I still haven't received anything. Can you please give me an update?

7:25 AM [Grace]
The last email I sent to you, I mentioned to please cash the check with the over-payment instead as Chase would take at least 5 business days to do their investigation (make sure the check has not been cashed, lost, etc), and I did not want to delay the payment any longer.
Has the check not been cashed?

7:37 AM [Grace]
I am back - just called my bank and the check, indeed, has not been cashed. I can place a stop payment on that now, and re-issue the replacement. Please confirm, and I will have my bookkeeper do so immediately.

[I then forwarded to her the exchange of emails we’d had one month ago, to refresh her memory.]

8:43 AM [MrBlueshift]

10 October 2017 [MrBlueshift]:
I received the refund check in the mail today. The agreed upon refund amount was $5,750, yet the check is for $6,000. Please have a new check reissued in the correct amount. I will shred this one.

11 October 2017 [Grace]:
Oh, thanks for letting me know about this. I forwarded our email chain to my bookkeeper who the cut the check.
Have you shredded the check yet? If not, then please do not - the bank would take days to verify the draft has not been cashed, and it would cause a delay in a replacement. I know it's not a big amount, and I did not mean to overpay but I know you are already out on the setting portion, so please, I would be happy for you to keep that amount and save you the hassle of having you wait for the bank to send a replacement.

11 October 2017 [MrBlueshift]:
Although I appreciate you wanting to save me the hassle of waiting for a replacement check, I’ve already shredded it, so please have one reissued in the correct amount.​

9:10 AM [Grace]
I will put a stop payment on the check now, and issue a corrected one for $5750, per your request below. It will be a bank draft from Chase, just like the first one.

11:47 AM [MrBlueshift]
I hope you saw that my request was from a month ago, not this morning. I'll keep a look out for the check next week.

12:02 PM [Grace]
I'm sorry I completely misunderstood - I assumed you were ok with cashing the original check. The new check should be there by the beginning of next week.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I don’t understand how she could have misconstrued what I requested on 11 October, but whatever. Hopefully I will receive the refund check next week.

Nothing was misconstrued... she's stringing you along. UNACCEPTABLE. How anyone, after reading all this, can give Grace their hard-earned money is beyond me. I would be LIVID.

 

[HappyNewLife]

(giving her the benefit of the doubt) It sounds like she forgot you said you shredded it and that she said she would reissue. But regardless, I'm so sorry this has been such a pain

 

[EvaEvans]

Hopefully I will receive the refund check next week.

I don't understand why your request for refund was less than what you originally paid?
I realized you destroyed the setting, but this was the only way to grade this diamond with GIA.
IF you knew that this diamond is N, SI1, brown undertone, most probably you would NOT purchase it.
So, in my opinion, Grace own you the WHOLE amount of money that you paid. She has to take all responsibility about her misleading item description.