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More shedding of fluorescence inner values

Texas Leaguer

Ideal_Rock
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Does this appear on GIA Dossier reports at all? [I am not finding the detail among GIA writeings & have certainy not read enough of the abridged reports, yet]
I don't have a dossier report handy with that comment, but I don't see why it would be excluded from dossiers. Essentially the only thing excluded is the actual plot. And an inscription is automatically applied for identification purposes.

On second thought, that comment may always be specific to characteristics not shown on the plot, in which case it is moot if there is no plot (dossier).

It's a very good question and I will try to find out!
 
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AV_

Ideal_Rock
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@diagem
I believe both (colorless & colored) should be treated as equal on all aspects!
I understand this in this way: if cut is accepted to have a contribution to fancy colour (grades), let it also be considered so for the lettered colour grades, or neither.
 
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Texas Leaguer

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No Bryan, cant agree with you on that one (even though it kinda make sense :cool2: ) its not that definite as you make it sound, both said features like any other optical utility of a diamond are subject to change based on time, geographic location and pluralities of lighting condition among many others...
From what I have learned, nothing is permanent in a diamonds performance no matter if in motion or still. (well maybe only in a light-less environment.).

It doesnt matter to me if it is human or nature that alters the diamonds appearance, I believe both (colorless & colored) should be treated as equal on all aspects! Its either a fancy or not or is it a colorless or not. Commanding a premium for some attributes is completely fine and justly.

But hey, I know, my thoughts are against the general consensus! :saint:
I think the essential philosophy in testing or grading is establishing a reasonable standard, and eliminating as many variables as possible in isolating the particular aspect you are testing or grading.

That is why it makes sense to grade diamonds in light that eliminates the variable that fluorescence can introduce. ( this of course is the philosophy GIA originally taught.)

With body color, in the normal range as well as fancy, the influence of cut needs to be controlled for. Cut quality can influence this test, especially in fancy colors.

Imagine the practical implications of grading fancy color face up - what would be the standard for your master stones?
 

diagem

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@diagem


I understand this in this way: if cut is accepted to have a contribution to fancy colour (grades), let it also be considered so for the lettered colour grades, or neither.
This is the whole quote, the word “cut” is not mentioned...

It doesnt matter to me if it is human or nature that alters the diamonds appearance, I believe both (colorless & colored) should be treated as equal on all aspects! Its either a fancy or not or is it a colorless or not. Commanding a premium for some attributes is completely fine and justly.”
 
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AV_

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This is the whole quote, the word “cut” is not mentioned...
I am not good at thinking in principle.

Is any other attribute graded by not independent rules?
 

diagem

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I think the essential philosophy in testing or grading is establishing a reasonable standard, and eliminating as many variables as possible in isolating the particular aspect you are testing or grading.

That is why it makes sense to grade diamonds in light that eliminates the variable that fluorescence can introduce. ( this of course is the philosophy GIA originally taught.)

With body color, in the normal range as well as fancy, the influence of cut needs to be controlled for. Cut quality can influence this test, especially in fancy colors.

Imagine the practical implications of grading fancy color face up - what would be the standard for your master stones?
I do understand the implications, I also understand that grading color based on face-up appearance add variables when not matched with genuine body color.., what I mostly understand is that the current colored diamond grading system has eliminated a whole light-yellow segment from consumer choices. The yellow "cape" diamonds, a favorable consumer choice for centuries now practically unavailable, especially in round brilliants.
 
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Texas Leaguer

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I suppose it’s more of a trade issue than a consumer issue...., I fully agree...

https://www.jckonline.com/editorial-article/alrosa-fluorescent-diamonds/
Well, there you have it. She said out loud the real basis for the effort. As I speculated earlier Alrosa is producing more fluoro stones than they can sell. "“But it was like we, as an industry, decided that all of a sudden it wasn’t positive. It’s gotten to the point where they are so discounted that you can’t even sell them."

However, I disagree with the notion that "we, as an industry decided it wasn't a positive." Consumers decided that! Arguably on largely irrational grounds, but nonetheless if consumers were demanding them the trade would be more than happy to supply.

The milkiness issue is not the only reason consumers are skeptical about fluorescent diamonds. But the answer is in giving consumers solid information and assurance that fluoro is not a negative on a stone by stone basis. Therefore, it is the labs who must lead. And I am happy to see AGSL in the thick of this initiative. It's very smart of Alrosa to partner with them.

Through the years there have been efforts to counter consumer misconceptions about flouro by advocating for their correction at the source. Michael Cowing et al provided an explanation and proposed a simple solution for correcting the overgrading of color problem associated with fluoro diamonds. Martin Rapaport lended his voice to correcting this problem at the lab level.

I believe it would be beneficial if labs developed a transparency test. Or at least develop a more direct way for reporting on those stones that do have an issue with haziness. If they are indeed that rare, then all the diamonds that get a passing grade can go through the pipeline without prejudice, and those few that fail are the only ones getting stuck. This would provide assurance to the consumer thereby helping solve the liquidity problem for the miners and manufacturers, while clearing the path for promotional efforts (such as the new Alrosa initiative highlighting the hidden beauty) to be successful.
 
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@Texas Leaguer The statements of 'clarity grade based on clouds / grain' sound as if intended to identify translucent diamonds. Are the criteria for such grading, open?
 

Texas Leaguer

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@Texas Leaguer The statements of 'clarity grade based on clouds / grain' sound as if intended to identify translucent diamonds. Are the criteria for such grading, open?
That is true. This in an indirect way that labs can report on transparency. In my opinion, it is an inadequate way to communicate to a consumer a significant issue with the diamond.

Beyond pricescope, how many consumers have any idea that comment might indicate compromised transparency? VERY few I suspect. Even here on pricescope you often have posters looking for advice, clearly looking for a diamond with top light performance, obsessing over minute cut details, while at the same time considering an Si1 diamond with that comment on the report. Fortunately for those posters, there is usually a prosumer here that will call their attention to this potential issue.

Not sure I understand the question about whether the criteria are open. (?)
 

AV_

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@Texas Leaguer 'open to debate'

I am wondering how is it decided to indicate the existence of such pervasive texture on reports.
 

Texas Leaguer

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@Texas Leaguer 'open to debate'

I am wondering how is it decided to indicate the existence of such pervasive texture on reports.
My understanding is that the comment is essentially a result of a cloud that is dispersed so widely throughout the stone that it cannot be plotted, or would appear overly harsh if plotted, and there is no other clarity feature that would justify the clarity grade.

The grader uses that criteria to apply that comment as a substitute for plotting information. Hence, you can have an Si grade with a very clean plot. A consumer not familiar with this aspect of communication on the report might look at the plot and think they have found a unicorn. AND, the stone is likely to be eye-clean and even loupe clean to the untrained eye.

Haziness can be very subtle.
 
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Rockdiamond

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The yellow "cape" diamonds, a favorable consumer choice for centuries now practically unavailable......
Hi Yoram!!
On this point, I disagree, based on my experience buying of S-Z colored diamonds.
Although there’s far more D-J color polished stones on the market, the lower and of the alphabet colors are also available.
As far as finding the lower alphabet stones in round, we agree 100%
And this IS an area where advances in cutting has made a huge impact. Re-cut a W-X antique old mine Brilliant ( or transitional, or RBC) to Cushion Modified and increase perceived body color to Fancy Light Yellow.
And as it relates to fluorescence- these colors experience far more issues with fluorescence causing issues with color and transparency compared to the colorless fluorescent diamonds we find.
 
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AV_

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The yellow "cape" diamonds ... now practically unavailable, especially in round brilliants.
As far as finding the lower alphabet stones in round, we agree 100%
I can only imagine that between one cut for most optical color, one for least, the difference is vast, a dream of a pair.
 

Rockdiamond

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If haziness is subtle enough, is it necessarily a distraction, or diminution of beauty?
Its possible that certain shades of color is related to some haziness.
Sometimes a desirable fluorescent diamond is slightly hazy in sunlight yet no haziness is perceived in other lighting scenarios
 
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Rockdiamond

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I can only imagine that between one cut for most optical color, one for least, the difference is vast, a dream of a pair.
another impact on this and how it relates to the market- a high percentage of "cape" diamobd cut prior to WWII have been recut. That aspect also skews what we see today.
 
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@Rockdiamond Some darker yellow diamonds with texture, fluorescence & a miriad of shades each, are a serious pleasure.

I am too biased for texture, to argue even more than I have.
 
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diagem

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If haziness is subtle enough, is it necessarily a distraction, or diminution of beauty?
Its possible that certain shades of color is related to some haziness.
Sometimes a desirable fluorescent diamond is slightly hazy in sunlight yet no haziness is perceived in other lighting scenarios
Any haziness is a beauty distraction, especially when diamond water (material purity) is a primary concern to all I believe.
What you mention in the bold, is mainly responsible due to nano impurities and less about the fluorescence per-se. If you view such diamonds through a microscope, most often the haziness you notice is because of groupings of tiny particles/impurities which are able to capture light are reflect the haziness at certain viewing angles. Part of GIA's "clouds not shown" comments.
 
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Rockdiamond

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Any haziness is a beauty distraction, especially when diamond water (material purity) is a primary concern to all I believe.
What you mention in the bold, is mainly responsible due to nano impurities and less about the fluorescence per-se. If you view such diamonds through a microscope, most often the haziness you notice is because of groupings of tiny particles/impurities which are able to capture light are reflect the haziness at certain viewing angles. Part of GIA's "clouds not shown" comments.
Hey Buddy!!!!

IMO.......the splitting of hairs does nothing to further consumer education. I have seen far too many MB or SB dull stones to really care about the microscopic reason. The same is not true for inert colorless stones. I see remarkably few SI ( or better) graded diamonds with dullness issues.
I've seen too many VS or SI stones with a comment of "clouds not shown" showing NO ILL EFFECTS whatsoever.
I've seen too many I-L colored MB or or SB stones that faced up shades better.
All of these aspects are cast into a discussion of doubt here.
IMO, consumers don't necessarily need to learn about macro analyzing diamonds to purchase a great stone.
If the "big boys' who are selling diamonds (the ones who don't have the stones in their possession) have their way, we'll all be out of business and this will be totally academic.
For any consumer reading this, with a desire to really understand fluorescence in diamonds: You'll need years of studying many thousands of diamonds to realize that each one is it's own story.
Or a dealer who can properly assess the stone for you.
 

AV_

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diamond water (material purity) is a primary concern to all I believe.
I agree.

[
Fog makes me happy; many of my choices require expounding on.]
 

Garry H (Cut Nut)

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That is true. This in an indirect way that labs can report on transparency. In my opinion, it is an inadequate way to communicate to a consumer a significant issue with the diamond.

Beyond pricescope, how many consumers have any idea that comment might indicate compromised transparency? VERY few I suspect. Even here on pricescope you often have posters looking for advice, clearly looking for a diamond with top light performance, obsessing over minute cut details, while at the same time considering an Si1 diamond with that comment on the report. Fortunately for those posters, there is usually a prosumer here that will call their attention to this potential issue.

Not sure I understand the question about whether the criteria are open. (?)
Agree Bryan,
And David Rock made a comment too about experienced eyes.
You WF guys are not going to sell a hazy diamond under your brand.
I think GIA should be ashamed that they do not tell people outright that transperancy is an issue and hide it in the jargon.
Bad boys and girls!
 

AV_

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@Garry H (Cut Nut) I feel that videos can show texture even better than can be seen in person - not unlike photomicrographs can [yet bias is complicated.]
 

Garry H (Cut Nut)

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@Garry H (Cut Nut) I feel that videos can show texture even better than can be seen in person - not unlike photomicrographs can [yet bias is complicated.]
Way too many variables.
check these 2 out


Can you really tell
 
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@Garry H (Cut Nut) Contrast does not go far enough, now that you told me about it.

It is difficult to say what exactly can be expected from videos; picking reports with comments does work, somewhat, but there are many more varieties of texture - in the images that is.
 

Garry H (Cut Nut)

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@Garry H (Cut Nut) Contrast does not go far enough, now that you told me about it.

It is difficult to say what exactly can be expected from videos; picking reports with comments does work, somewhat, but there are many more varieties of texture - in the images that is.
1. what does texture mean?
2. can you say if either or both are hazy?
 
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AV_

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@Garry H (Cut Nut)

1. I am trying to refer to clarity characteristics best described by density, as 'texture'.

2. No.
 

diagem

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Hey Buddy!!!!

IMO.......the splitting of hairs does nothing to further consumer education. I have seen far too many MB or SB dull stones to really care about the microscopic reason. The same is not true for inert colorless stones. I see remarkably few SI ( or better) graded diamonds with dullness issues.
I've seen too many VS or SI stones with a comment of "clouds not shown" showing NO ILL EFFECTS whatsoever.
I've seen too many I-L colored MB or or SB stones that faced up shades better.
All of these aspects are cast into a discussion of doubt here.
IMO, consumers don't necessarily need to learn about macro analyzing diamonds to purchase a great stone.
If the "big boys' who are selling diamonds (the ones who don't have the stones in their possession) have their way, we'll all be out of business and this will be totally academic.
For any consumer reading this, with a desire to really understand fluorescence in diamonds: You'll need years of studying many thousands of diamonds to realize that each one is it's own story.
Or a dealer who can properly assess the stone for you.


David, if you want to keep your tone exclusively towards consumers then I will refrain from discussing such issues with you further..., you are starting to sound like your old broken record (see bolded) again, remember your "trust your eyes" rhetoric?

You cant cancel out by shooting in all direction..., if you want to participate in meaningful discussions, dont cancel out, just look at your starting line "...does nothing to further consumer education." Please let the consumer be the judge on that...

We are all here for similar and different reasons, education is only one of them.
 
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