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More shedding of fluorescence inner values

Karl_K

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Good news, bad news kind of thing.
Good in that more people hear about them and consider if they are right for them without a lot of garbage info.
Bad.. discount might go away on them and they cost more for those in on the secret.
 

Rockdiamond

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Yes, fluorescent diamonds can be amazing! Unless their not.
And we have to acknowledge that the bad ones are dull and lifeless.

But what I see happening is the mixture of the internet and reality.
The reality is that many fluorescent diamonds are amazing.
The internet is designed to let massive companies sell things they never actually touch. And if one is looking for a popular size/shape stone, there's generally a gazillion on the market.
So why not simply skip any possibility, no matter how small, that the stone will be one of the bad ones.
Then discussions online reenforce the negative aspects, while generally ( not here) completely ignoring the benefits.

In the '90's and prior, there were premiums charged to the best fluorescent diamonds.
Today, they're a super bargian......shhhh. maybe we need to keep this quiet?
 

diagem

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Yes, fluorescent diamonds can be amazing! Unless their not.
And we have to acknowledge that the bad ones are dull and lifeless.

But what I see happening is the mixture of the internet and reality.
The reality is that many fluorescent diamonds are amazing.
The internet is designed to let massive companies sell things they never actually touch. And if one is looking for a popular size/shape stone, there's generally a gazillion on the market.
So why not simply skip any possibility, no matter how small, that the stone will be one of the bad ones.
Then discussions online reenforce the negative aspects, while generally ( not here) completely ignoring the benefits.

In the '90's and prior, there were premiums charged to the best fluorescent diamonds.
Today, they're a super bargian......shhhh. maybe we need to keep this quiet?
BTW David, dull & lifeless has nothing to do with fluorescence level or intensity, today we know that dull & lifeless occur when small areas groupings of microscopic particles/inclusions are the cause, not fluorescence per se.
 

AV_

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@diagem @Rockdiamond I have spent a few days reading through research papers, trying to find any study of texture and fluorescence - there does not appear to be any. A bucket of diamond sand could clarify the matter [darned fun!]
 

Rockdiamond

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BTW David, dull & lifeless has nothing to do with fluorescence level or intensity, today we know that dull & lifeless occur when small areas groupings of microscopic particles/inclusions are the cause, not fluorescence per se.
Kind of "splitting hairs" old friend!
I mean, if an SB is dull, I don't really care why.
I've seen far fewer super dull non fl diamonds.....not that they don't exist. My experience is that a high percentage of polished diamonds on the market that are "dull" without having large imperfections have stong or greater fl.
Maybe your experience is different?
 

AV_

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I'd guess whatever comes of intergrown crystals does not have to have fluorescence to fog [& not only - I am thinking of types of texture with properties: transparency, strain etc.].

What gets cut from such rough?
 

Rockdiamond

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To me, the way it’s presented is misleading in a way. I do agree that fl stones can be amazing- special and unique. We have also been super lucky to have very educated consumers who recognize the value. We have been in the position to be able to purchase some remarkable fluorescent stones and even paid and charged a premium for such stones.
Still stating that fluorescence has nothing to do with dullness in certain fl Diamonds is just plain wrong. Misleading. Fluorescent diamonds get an undeserved bad rap but we should sell from a position of strength and truth. Misleading info does not go to that end.
 

Wink

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Yes, fluorescent diamonds can be amazing! Unless their not.
And we have to acknowledge that the bad ones are dull and lifeless.

But what I see happening is the mixture of the internet and reality.
The reality is that many fluorescent diamonds are amazing.
The internet is designed to let massive companies sell things they never actually touch. And if one is looking for a popular size/shape stone, there's generally a gazillion on the market.
So why not simply skip any possibility, no matter how small, that the stone will be one of the bad ones.
Then discussions online reenforce the negative aspects, while generally ( not here) completely ignoring the benefits.

In the '90's and prior, there were premiums charged to the best fluorescent diamonds.
Today, they're a super bargian......shhhh. maybe we need to keep this quiet?
By the nineties my friend, those premiums were long gone, destroyed in by the investment craze of the late seventies.

I fear that you are correct about most internet selling. Many internet vendors never see or inspect the diamonds that they sell using paper. Those sellers will never be able to confidently or comfortably sell fluorescent diamonds, nor should they be. It is something that must be seen and shared to be appreciated.

Wink
 

Rockdiamond

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By the nineties my friend, those premiums were long gone,
Funny story relating to this. Maybe in the states the premium was gone.....but in the ‘90s I was working for a huge South African siteholder and my main territory was the Caribbean.
People would get off this cruise ship, blitzed on the limitless alcohol and come to downtown St Thomas and St Maarten and buy massive quantities of J-M color stones. Diamonds which jewelers in the states could not give away.
Some dealers thought it was the difference in the sun down there. I think it was a combination. Alcohol, the sun, and the Indian people running the stores in the Caribbean were just better- more aggressive sellers.

I’d pack a bag with large parcels of stones. A parcel of 30 two carat stones was common for me to carry. I’d return with maybe 5 stones left in the parcel. The fluorescent diamonds always went first and sold at a premium over the inert ones.
I gave up traveling down there in about 2002. At that point things had started to change and we had one of the very first sites selling diamonds. So I never had to go back.
Today those islands are really in bad shape. Hopefully things will come back for them. Maybe they’ll continue to sell cape fl diamonds.
 

Wink

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Funny story relating to this. Maybe in the states the premium was gone.....but in the ‘90s I was working for a huge South African siteholder and my main territory was the Caribbean.
People would get off this cruise ship, blitzed on the limitless alcohol and come to downtown St Thomas and St Maarten and buy massive quantities of J-M color stones. Diamonds which jewelers in the states could not give away.
Some dealers thought it was the difference in the sun down there. I think it was a combination. Alcohol, the sun, and the Indian people running the stores in the Caribbean were just better- more aggressive sellers.

I’d pack a bag with large parcels of stones. A parcel of 30 two carat stones was common for me to carry. I’d return with maybe 5 stones left in the parcel. The fluorescent diamonds always went first and sold at a premium over the inert ones.
I gave up traveling down there in about 2002. At that point things had started to change and we had one of the very first sites selling diamonds. So I never had to go back.
Today those islands are really in bad shape. Hopefully things will come back for them. Maybe they’ll continue to sell cape fl diamonds.
Ah, yes, the jewelers in the Caribbean were selling diamonds. The sellers in the States, back then and largely, still today, were/are selling paper. I have long said, and fervently believe, that you need to see it to believe it. Look at the diamond, let it speak to you. This is why when I show diamonds in person, I put several on a slotted tray and let the client tell me which they like the best. Only after, do I tell them what the diamond they have chosen is as far as the paper is concerned.

Wink
 

Rockdiamond

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Ah, yes, the jewelers in the Caribbean were selling diamonds. The sellers in the States, back then and largely, still today, were/are selling paper.
It's fun comparing notes, as two "oldsters" Wink!!
My perception was more about the lack of understanding diamond color and clarity better.
A prospective client would walk into a jewelry store and request a 2 ct diamond.
"We have a gorgeous G/VS1 right here- it's $30k"
Wow, I only wanted to spend about $12k....what about a J color?
"You DO NOT want one a J color!!! They look like carp!!"

My Indian buddies- back in the day- would romance the stone, instead of, as you said- selling paper......
 

Texas Leaguer

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We all already heard Alrosa is engaging into a fluorescent diamond marketing scheme, and imo rightfully so.
But it’s nice to see AGSL endorsing.


http://eng.alrosa.ru/alrosa-introduces-business-potential-of-fluorescent-diamonds-to-jewelers/
Though the percentage of fluorescent diamonds is relatively small, my guess is that Alrosa has built up a fairly large inventory of them over the years due to negative market perceptions of the property. Therefore the need to push harder.

I am heartened that the messaging seems to be proper in my opinion. I like the concept of 'hidden beauty" and the fact that they only tie the whitening aspect to daylight. As someone who has always very much enjoyed things that fluoresce, I think it is a particularly cool property for a diamond. My beef has always been with the emphasis on selling grade whitening to the consumer "This J color looks like a G because of the SB yada yada'. This is not a service to the consumer.

But making them aware of the unique beauty of fluorescence as a standalone attribute- a largely hidden attribute- is definitely something I can get behind.

Also, the fact that AGS is participating in the campaign gives me confidence that it will be messaged in an accurate, and ethical way.
 

Garry H (Cut Nut)

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I hope they are screening out hazy fluoro diamonds!
Bryan do you know if AGS has any 'alert' that a diamond is milky/hazy?
I rarely see AGS graded diamonds in Australia.

And BTW - one reason why I think Michael Cowing is wrong to grade diamonds in light totally devoid of UV is that if the stone is hazy or oily it will not appear so in that lighting.
 

diagem

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...My beef has always been with the emphasis on selling grade whitening to the consumer "This J color looks like a G because of the SB yada yada'. This is not a service to the consumer...
So I assume you are also more in line with my general thought that a "face-up" fancy yellow, but only a cape yellow in the table down (profile) position is also a sort of disservice to the consumer as well?
 

Karl_K

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My beef has always been with the emphasis on selling grade whitening to the consumer "This J color looks like a G because of the SB yada yada'. This is not a service to the consumer.
I consider that borderline fraud.
The price of diamonds(non-fancy color) is based on the material grade a J color material is a J color material.
That J color material when cut could have many different face up color based on cut, flour etc but its still a J color for pricing.
Intentionally twisting face up looks with the material grade to make people think they are getting a deal is wrong.
 

diagem

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I consider that borderline fraud.
The price of diamonds(non-fancy color) is based on the material grade a J color material is a J color material.
That J color material when cut could have many different face up color based on cut, flour etc but its still a J color for pricing.
Intentionally twisting face up looks with the material grade to make people think they are getting a deal is wrong.
So please let me understand your position Karl (a bit blurry for me), in the natural colored diamond world, since GIA modus operandi is grading diamond face up (considering all diamond shapes & cuts have a face-up position), then their face up position value estimation is considered valid even though their material (body) grade is of a lighter color volume?
 

Texas Leaguer

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So I assume you are also more in line with my general thought that a "face-up" fancy yellow, but only a cape yellow in the table down (profile) position is also a sort of disservice to the consumer as well?
First, let me say that I am not an expert on fancy color diamonds.

But the two issues are not entirely comparable because if a cape diamond is cut expertly to retain max color and face up like a fancy yellow, that characteristic benefits the consumer every time they look at it. It's a permanent feature of the diamond at that point. With fluorescence, the consumer can only derive the benefit of whitening, to the extent that it might occur, in a very limited number of lighting environments.
 

Texas Leaguer

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I hope they are screening out hazy fluoro diamonds!
Bryan do you know if AGS has any 'alert' that a diamond is milky/hazy?
I rarely see AGS graded diamonds in Australia.

And BTW - one reason why I think Michael Cowing is wrong to grade diamonds in light totally devoid of UV is that if the stone is hazy or oily it will not appear so in that lighting.
Not to my knowledge, but I would not be surprised if such an issue might be captured in the graders' notes.

However, since the official position of GIA is that transparency issues due to fluoro are extremely rare, I would not expect GIA or AGSL to necessarily have a 'screening' protocol in place.

I want to believe that eventually there will be a specific reference to transparency on lab reports, if only to alert a consumer to diminished transparency. You see it indirectly referenced with respect to clarity features in Comments such as 'clarity grade based on clouds not shown". But, as important as this is most consumers would not understand the implication.

The inherent limitation in some of the lesser understood aspects of diamond quality is that traditionally there was the expectation that a buyer's jeweler would be knowledgeable and honest in helping them interpret the finer points of a lab report. With so many online sales direct to consumer that guard rail has fallen away to some extent. I think there is an imperative for labs to do more to take up that slack.
 
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AV_

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... a specific reference to transparency on lab reports, if only to alert a consumer to diminished transparency. You see it indirectly referenced with respect to clarity features in Comments such as 'clarity grade based on clouds not shown".
Does this appear on GIA Dossier reports at all? [I am not finding the detail among GIA writeings & have certainy not read enough of the abridged reports, yet]
 

diagem

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First, let me say that I am not an expert on fancy color diamonds.

But the two issues are not entirely comparable because if a cape diamond is cut expertly to retain max color and face up like a fancy yellow, that characteristic benefits the consumer every time they look at it. It's a permanent feature of the diamond at that point. With fluorescence, the consumer can only derive the benefit of whitening, to the extent that it might occur, in a very limited number of lighting environments.
No Bryan, cant agree with you on that one (even though it kinda make sense :cool2: ) its not that definite as you make it sound, both said features like any other optical utility of a diamond are subject to change based on time, geographic location and pluralities of lighting condition among many others...
From what I have learned, nothing is permanent in a diamonds performance no matter if in motion or still. (well maybe only in a light-less environment.).

It doesnt matter to me if it is human or nature that alters the diamonds appearance, I believe both (colorless & colored) should be treated as equal on all aspects! Its either a fancy or not or is it a colorless or not. Commanding a premium for some attributes is completely fine and justly.

But hey, I know, my thoughts are against the general consensus! :saint:
 

Rockdiamond

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This is an old, yet related argument.
Alarosa is pointing out the value of fluorescent diamonds. Part of which is the cool color change aspect.
Bryan has never believed that so many people have experienced the whitening effect. I’ve experienced it countless times over the years so I’m one of them.
It’s already been pointed out, repeatedly, that sellers routinely charged a premium for these fluorescent diamonds years ago.

Yoram is making excellent points about color. A diamond WILL change color in different lighting environments- and your perception of the color will change even based on the colors of the clothes you’re wearing when looking at it.
So a color grade is a snapshot in time basically.
I’ve loved Y-Z colors for literally decades for this reason.
Basically- who cares what GIA calls it if it looks like a canary at a fraction of the price.
We can make the same case for a J color that looks a few shades better face up.
 

Rockdiamond

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And to add- I firmly believe in accurately describing this to consumers.
Clearly this has been an issue for a long time for sellers who lack integrity.
A GIA ( accurately) graded Y-Z gets put in a setting and sent to EGL who calls it Fancy Yellow.
Or a GIA graded J color graded by EGL as an H. Than an unaware consumer is led to believe an EGL “H” is the same a the GIA stone graded H. Of course this has nothing to do with fluorescence, per se.

If these aspects are honestly described they add value. When used to deceive it’s clearly a problem.
Maybe that’s what Bryan objects to. I detest the deceptive tactics too.
 
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