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More info on 1 ct solitaire from Ebay - jeweler opinion

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Date: 2/19/2006 4:54:31 PM
Author: Kimberly
Dear PRC, I consider myself a David Horowitz wanna be and think that you would better be served with a CLEAR and SHORT EMAIL to the seller like this:

Dear Seller, I would to like a FULL refund in cash for this item as your ebay ad says I am entitled to. Please note I am requesting this prior to the 7 day deadline. I have copied the ad and have copies of all correspondance. If you do not return my money in full I am prepared to take you to small claims court as you are violating your EBAY ad and that is illegal. If you do not contact me within 24 hours to state you are wiring me the funds I will be forced to report your fraudulant practices and file my claim.
The end-That stuff you guys are bickering about is silly.

The ad says you can return it for any reason. Do not waste time bickering with him you are 100% right.

By the way below is a cut and paste from his feedback section. Notice he says 100% refunds on ALL items. You will win in court in fact in California it is treble damages for fraud or the cap of 7500.00 :).


Item less than described and represented, but still a very good deal!
Buyer lgllife ( 5 ) Jan-09-06 14:25 5066596264
Reply by aquablueocean: 100% Refund Offered on all items.
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This is exactly what I''d do.
 
Hello again and thanks so much for all the info and support! I did respond to the seller just as mentioned, requesting a full refund. This was his response:

A full refund requires that the same diamond be returned. I did not sell a clarity enhanced diamond. I sold a diamond that was inspected by a gemologist as being non-enhanced. I will only give a refund if the very same diamond is returned. Also I will not wire the money or issue any refund prior to receiving the diamond and having it inspected to insure that it is the very same diamond I sent.

We''re getting an appraisal tomorrow to determine for sure if it''s quality enhanced and the color and quality ratings. Sounds like now he''s going to claim we plotted and switched the diamond from the one he sent us! Unbelievable!
 
Before you send it, I would file a complaint with ebay first. Then, I would ask him for proof that his diamond is not clarity-enhanced. He has no records that would hold up, I would be willing to bet. He is playing you and hoping you will just keep the diamond. It sounds like a real mess. I would leave a negative and tell him if this is resolved to your satisfaction, you will apply to have it removed.

I would carefully word the negative, BEWARE, read all feedback before you bid, Misrepresented diamond, holding money hostage.

That should get the message across.
 
Date: 2/19/2006 4:20:36 PM
Author: prc

1) You sold me a ring and I have now been advised by an independent source that it is clarity enhanced -- which you did not disclose to me.
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I'm a little hesitant to post this, because it seems everybody has made up their minds that the Ebay vendor sold a clarity enhanced stone, but:

A) The source that told you the diamond was clarity enhanced was NOT an "independent source". An "independent" is one that does not buy or sell, in other words, not a potentially competing or biased vendor.

B} As I mentioned before, the information supplied by the jeweler seemed erroneous in one respect or another (see my previous post).

You seem to be putting a lot of stock in this jeweler's opinion, when it is by no means ironclad. I could understand why the Ebay vendor would be getting upset if he believes the diamond to not be clarity enhanced. He might think you're trying to pull something. Fraud by no means happens only to consumers. Vendors get hit with it continuously.

I'm glad you're getting it appraised by a gemologist that will sign his name to his assessment. That's what you should have done in the first place before making any accusations.

Forgive me for saying so, but you're going to have an awful lot of egg on your face if it turns out this diamond is not clarity enhanced, and a good deal.

By the way, is this appraiser you're seeing an independent?.
 
The same thought actually crossed my mind. Richard, is it possible that a feather or other inclusion could be mistaken for being clarity enhanced easily?

Either the diamond isn''t clarity enhanced and it was a great deal or the it was and the seller is trying to scam you. I will definitely be hoping for the former and I am glad you are getting it appraised again to be certain. Good luck.
 
Date: 2/20/2006 12:41:25 AM
Author: XChick03
The same thought actually crossed my mind. Richard, is it possible that a feather or other inclusion could be mistaken for being clarity enhanced easily?
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Yes, it happens all the time, especially if the diamond has a feather which exhibits iridescence (a natural phenomena). Non-gemologists often mistake natural iridescence in a feather for the blue or lavender color which the polymer filling of clarity enhancement exhibits.

Pam mentions that the jeweler who looked at the diamond was the "owner of the store", but not whether he was a gemologist.

I'm very leery of his assessment, simply because he graded the diamond as a VS1, possibly a VVS2. As I mentioned before, this high an "appearance" (or actual clarity grade) in a clarity enhanced diamond is very unusual. It doesn't sound right. Most clarity enhanced diamonds do not exceed an "appearance" greater than SI1.
 
Just a note...

RE: Blue /Purple or other colors in clarity enhancement.

Back in the early days of this treatment being disclosed I personally saw some stones that were treated by CE WITHOUT the colors.

The treaters, add a dopant that brings out the colors, and the method of the treatment varies from treater to treater. But I am sure there are some treated ones in the pipeline for years, where the dopant wasn''t added and detection may have gone totally ignored.

Richard is right when he says even vendors get scammed. Usually becuase the don''t have the training or knowledge, and rely on time of experience to replace the actual attending classes and courses.

I was an expert witness in a legal case years ago, when in deposition the vendor testified that "He could grade diamond better than any gemologist and even better than the GIA". This person had never taken a class or course, yet he felt his grading skills were superior to that of experts, because his family was in the business for three generations.

Rockdoc
 
Yikes! ... this war of words (from E/VVS to H-something to CE to ? ) ... sounds scary already. So does the 'trend' shrinking the bargain status of the deal from 12k sold for a third (?) to 4-5k CE to ... who knows. The diamond must be in a Hell of an identity crisis by now
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Was there any step of this transaction not involving some suspicion of misrepresentation? missed that...


Btw, there's some mention of 'egg' above. 'Guess some of it belongs to whoever claimed 'clarity enhancement' to begin with. If jewelers can mistake CE, buyers...
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Good point Richard--it is conceivable that there was not a problem since we don''t have a real appraisers opinion of the stone.

But at the same time, my feeling is a legit dealer (even if they were upset) would take the refund immediately and take back the diamond and not get into this little game with a customer.
 
Hello all, Pam again, here with the solitaire drama. We are taking the ring to get it appraised today although it may be tomorrow before we have the appraisal. I do wish I hadn''t mentioned clarity-enhanced to the seller before getting the appraisal because I''ve created a big riff with him and everyone is upset. I don''t think I would have mentioned it except I started asking him last Friday how we would need to return it if we chose to do so (as he claimed a 7 day return policy for any reason, even "xyz") but then he wouldn''t respond back to me. I finally heard from him yesterday when I gave him a timeframe in which to respond or I was going to ebay and he told me that he wouldn''t give me a refund, only an exchange because he thought I was playing games. That''s when I mentioned the clarity-enhanced comment because I was upset (bad reason) and felt like he has misled us about other things so this may actually be true also. That''s what I was getting at but didn''t mean to make false accusations. If the ring is what he said it was, we''ll be fine with it (except for the negative feelings all this has created) and most likely won''t return it. The owner of the store look at it and I don''t understand his VS1 rating if it is clarity enhanced either, from the info I''ve read over the past couple days on the subject stating that it''s rated the same as if the flaw were still present. I don''t believe the store owner mentioned the color rating he''d give it - he didn''t say the appraisal was wrong nor did he way it was right. If anyone wants to see the ring, you can go to ebay and the auction # is 5081990895. We bid on this item the end of January and mailed a check Feb 1st so the neutral feedback from the sellers and the negative feedback from the buyers happened after we''d already sent payment to him. The only thing I saw was positive feedback or we would have never got involved with this transaction. We''re going to chill out until we get the appraisal. Fiance is upset with the seller and somewhat with me because I mentioned looking on ebay when he hadn''t ever bought anything there, must less this big of a purchase. I hope this doesn''t start our marriage out on the wrong foot.
face24.gif
 
Pam, I am sure your marriage will be just fine. Things like this happen to best of us and when a couple goes through things like this, it usually just makes them smarter and stronger.
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I just hope everything works out. This could become quite a situation is the seller was unaware that it is clarity enhanced (if it really is.) Though, with the information Richard provided, I''m starting to believe it may not be clarity enhanced at all, which I hope is the case. It''s pretty scary to think that even jewelers can be fooled by CE, and even scarier to think some of us could buy CE stones and be completely unaware of it.
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If the appraiser says the diamond is what the seller said it is, then it looks like you got a good deal on a nice diamond. Hopefully, the bad feelings surrounding the diamond now will disappear if you find out everything is great with the stone.
 
Pam

I would suggest that you print out the details of the auction. I reviewed what was posted on EBAY, and the diamond was represented as a particular quality.

A stone of such quality would be valued at least what he represented the value from "the local jeweler to be".

I would recommend that you hold him to the "benefit of the bargain". He asserted you would get a VVS-D that was worth around $ 10K. In representing this in writing, he has legally established an express warranty. You as relying on this information made the purchase, and you have the right to expect EXACTLY what was offered.

If you didn''t receive this, having printed proof of his representation legally makes him liable to produce his part of the "contract" ( which an accepted offer becomes).

Your purchasing decision was based on his representation of quality and he is legally bound to deliver what he represented.
This type of matter is very clearly written in the law. ( See uniform Commercial Code and Magnusson Moss Warranty Act)

If you accept a refund, you will lose your right to get what he offered.

He didn''t specify what kind of "certificate" he would get for $ 65.00, but my nose smells that the certificate would probably come from the same jeweler who "examined" the stone for him. A 1 carat stone report from GIA or AGS would cost far more than

If the grading by the gemologist doesn''t comply with the description i.e. clarity and color ( even if it is NOT clarity enhanced ) I would demand he produce a stone that DOES COMPLY, and in order to have reliance on a replacement, that you would demand it be graded by GIA or AGS, and that you would pay for that report (since a GIA report wasn''t included with his offer).

If the stone does not grade as D color and VVS, you should talk to a legal professional about what you need to do to enforce the contract. Further, if the stone is clarity enhanced, that makes this a lot more serious than what it would be if just the clarity and color were misrepresented.

But as far as evaluating the quality of the stone, it should be unset. In this high a quality diamond, that is sort of imperative.

I would also advise you find a local gemprint center before it is unmounted and have it imaged so you can prove that the stone that will be unset and graded is the same one that is sent for testing if needed.

Hope this helps.

Rockdoc
 
Thanks XChick03, I hope we will be OK through this. My fiance is quite angry with the seller and said he wants his money back no matter what now. I am trying to calm him, telling him it could be a good stone, what was represented. I emailed the seller today and told him I didn''t know that it was clarity enhanced and apologized for mentioning it when I didn''t have any facts. He said he was "sorry the transaction wasn''t working," said I could return the ring for a refund if I choose to do so, and he said he could "probably sell it on Ebay again for more money." The nerve....

RockDoc - Thanks for your info also. How do we find an "independent" appraiser in our area (Louisville, KY)? And how do we locate a gem print center? My fiance went to get the appraisal today and the appraiser is on vacation til Thursday. She worked for the same store we went to Saturday so I doubt she is "independent" and am glad we didn''t use her after further consideration.
 
He said he was "sorry the transaction wasn''t working," said I could return the ring for a refund if I choose to do so, and he said he could "probably sell it on Ebay again for more money."

Well......there you go. I would take advantage of the offer and get your money back immediately!
 
Forgot to mention, I have printed the ad on ebay and all the emails to and from the seller. He mentioned VVS/D in the description of the ring then said VVS1-VS1 and color D or E in the text per "visual examination" by this "GRA" gemologist. Is the VVS/D still the important description or does his further explanation warrant that as the correct rating?
 
Returning the ring THEN getting a refund from him makes me even more nervous than keeping it. We paid with a cashier''s check, not a credit card that would allow us to dispute it. Our only recourse is through Ebay or court. Should we ask for the money in an escrow account before we mail the ring or something like that?
 
Sorry........I''ve never purchased anything from Ebay and your experience aptly demonstrates one reason why. Hopefully, other''s who have purchased from Ebay could offer advice.
 
Date: 2/20/2006 5:29:25 PM
Author: prc
Returning the ring THEN getting a refund from him makes me even more nervous than keeping it. We paid with a cashier''s check, not a credit card that would allow us to dispute it. Our only recourse is through Ebay or court. Should we ask for the money in an escrow account before we mail the ring or something like that?
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Might be a good idea if you could find an escrow that doesn''t charge too much.
 
Date: 2/20/2006 5:16:00 PM
Author: prc
Thanks XChick03, I hope we will be OK through this. My fiance is quite angry with the seller and said he wants his money back no matter what now. I am trying to calm him, telling him it could be a good stone, what was represented. I emailed the seller today and told him I didn''t know that it was clarity enhanced and apologized for mentioning it when I didn''t have any facts. He said he was ''sorry the transaction wasn''t working,'' said I could return the ring for a refund if I choose to do so, and he said he could ''probably sell it on Ebay again for more money.'' The nerve....

RockDoc - Thanks for your info also. How do we find an ''independent'' appraiser in our area (Louisville, KY)? And how do we locate a gem print center? My fiance went to get the appraisal today and the appraiser is on vacation til Thursday. She worked for the same store we went to Saturday so I doubt she is ''independent'' and am glad we didn''t use her after further consideration.
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You are entitled to the benefit of your bargain, which was as the seller described in the initial Ebay offering D VVS-1

Depending on the cut and proportions of the stone - a stone like that would sell for at LEAST 10K, maybe more.

The closest credentialed independent appraiser with a Gemprint machine is Joe Mackley, a fine and capable guy, he is in Knoxville. ( Check the www.gemprint.com site, click on centers, then the southern area, and his listing is there).

I would think it is to your advantage to insist on actually have him DELIVER what was promised, as you got a great bargain at $ 3K for a 10K stone. If you take the refund, you just get your money back and LOSE the benefit of the bargain he offered and you agreed to.

Basic breach of contract issues here.

Rockdoc
 
I think she'd be darn lucky to come out of this with her money back. She'd have to go through getting a lawyer to get the guy to come up with a D VVS stone, and even then, it wouldn't necessarily be a good cut.

prc, take the opportunity and return the stone immediately while he sounds willing. Send it back-- overnight, registered mail, insured, return receipt requested. Then he sends you the money. He still does not want your bad feedback and that's what you have to withhold until you get your money back.
 
Not to mention, that he can claim bankrupcy on a court judgement and then she has nothing.
 
And one more thing...isn''t the return period almost over? Don''t mess around or he can say he doesn''t have to refund because you are no longer in the return period!
 
That''s another thing - I''m not sure I got a good cut to begin with. The top of the stone is 6mm (or less) and many of the details aren''t specified on the GRA appraisal.
 
Return it and be done with it. Then come on here and we will help you find a nicely cut stone. :)
 
Date: 2/20/2006 6:49:19 PM
Author: Kimberly
Return it and be done with it. Then come on here and we will help you find a nicely cut stone. :)
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I agree!!! The chances that you actually got an amazing bargain (a well-cut, 1 ct, D, VVS diamond for $3550) are so slim it''s hardly worth talking about. Return it while you still can and get an awesome stone from a respected online vendor. If using Ebay''s escrow service would make you feel more comfortable, do so (extra protection can''t hurt!), but do whatever you can to just get your money back. At least, that''s what I would do. Good luck!!
 
Date: 2/20/2006 6:16:46 PM
Author: Jensia
Not to mention, that he can claim bankrupcy on a court judgement and then she has nothing.
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It seems apparent that the person ( a jeweler ) is working in concert with the seller.

It has been my experience with handling these sort of cases, that through proper discovery that a relationship was created to appear independent and unbiased to intentionally misrepresent the items offered for sale on ebay.

The person who made the quality statement might also be liable as well. Additionally, if the items was sent via USPS, it represents mail fraud which would very likely be handled by the US Attorney''s Office.

I think it is in PRL''s best interest to at least discuss this matter with a legal professional. In such a flagrant misrepresentation, if proven factual, there may be punitive damage assessed as well as legal costs too.

Suppose this were a car. And the dealer told you that you''d be getting a Mercedes, and delivered a Yugo to you with a Mercedes emblem on the hood? How many of you would settle for getting the $ 5000.00 refund when you were promised a $ 30-50K car?

or using a house as the comparative barometer, you bargained for a house, and got a pup tent?

Rockdoc
 
Rock Doc, with all due respect, I know that one doesn''t get a $50,000 car for $5000. So if I made a large error in judgement and bought such a car and realized it was worthless, then I''d be THRILLED to just get my money back and learn a very important lesson...with no money lost! I really, really wouldn''t care to have to pay an attorney and wait months or years for it to make it through the court system. It''s not worth it!

I don''t know prc, but I imagine she''d just like to get this behind her so she can find a better engagement ring and get on with her life!
 
"Possession is 9/10th''s of the law."

If you send this guy the diamond, he has both your money and the diamond.

Don''t send him the diamond. If you don''t trust him, why in the world would you send him the only leverage you have? At least now you have something to show for your money if he turns out to be a bad apple.

The only way I would do the refund thing is through an escrow agent. Someone who will receive the diamond and hold it until negotiable funds are received from him, and then release both to the proper recipients. That way everybody''s happy. Joe Mackley would be a good choice, or most any recognized independent appraiser.
 
Date: 2/20/2006 6:16:46 PM
Author: Jensia
Not to mention, that he can claim bankrupcy on a court judgement and then she has nothing.
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not for $3500.
 
I''m so sorry that you''ve had so much trouble with this purchase. As an eBay seller (not jewelry), this kind of situation makes me angry because it drives away good customers. As it stands now, I wouldn''t send the diamond back unless you can either go to the seller''s location, turn in the diamond and get cash OR have the seller put the money into escrow. Otherwise, you may be out of your money and the diamond and then have an even worse situation on your hands. I would also go ahead and get that independent appraisal so you''ll know exactly what you''ve paid for.
 
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