More info on 1 ct solitaire from Ebay - jeweler opinion

[prc]

Hello everyone! Thanks for all the great advice from my previous post. My fiance took the ring to a store Friday and they wanted to sell him something else showing him an ideal cut (at a cost of $11,000) and comparing the "fire" on the 2 rings. Their appraisal would be $100 so we opted for Plan B. His friend''s stepdad works at a high-end jewelry store and referred us to see the owner there yesterday afternoon. We brought the appraisal and the ring to him and he looked at it for free and said that he would grade the stone at a VS1, possibly a VVS2, but said he is tougher than most on his clarity ratings. He said that he was also disturbed by the appraisal because it did not mention that the ring had been clarity enhanced -- he said there was a crack in the ring that had been filled with polymer. He said the ring would retail for appx $8800 and he or someone could get the ring for appx $5500. We then told him that $3500 was paid for the ring and he said that it was still a good deal and a nice stone. We looked at settings there too because we are planning to buy one somewhere and that seems like a good place. By the way, the seller asked me if I planned to return the ring after I asked him how to go about it if we decided to after the appraisal. I emailed him again to ask how to go about it and have not heard back from him. I like the ring but plan to leave negative feedback because it is clarity enhanced and that was not disclosed, he wouldn''t tell me how to go about returning the ring, and, from past history, he will leave negative feedback for me even if I leave a neutral rating. He also told us that the ring was shipped overnight Friday and would be received Tuesday. When my fiance picked up the ring, he saw that it was shipped Monday. And he''d told us he''d ship it within 48 hours of receipt of payment which was Weds noon Pacific Time. I wouldn''t have dealt with him if I''d known what I know now. But we do like the ring. Thanks again! Pam

 

[Lorelei]

I am glad you are happy with the ring but personally I would have a HUGE problem finding out this diamond was clarity enhanced and it wasn't disclosed, no buts - I would return it immediately. Did it say anywhere that this diamond was treated? That is also not good that the vendor asked you if you would be returning the ring after the appraisal and now isn't available, he obviously knows that he would get found out and the appraiser would notice the enhancement. You have definitely decided to keep this ring?

 

[denverappraiser]

Pam,

A free opinion from a friend’s stepdad who works in a high-end jewelry store may not be the most reliable source of information about clarity enhanced diamonds. You already know the dealer has lied to you, not once but repeatedly and you’re on a clock for the return that only runs 7 days. Return it now if you can. If you want a CE stone, buy it from a credible dealer. There’s plenty of them out there that don’t charge $8800.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ISA NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[prc]

I am quite upset with the seller for not disclosing that it was clarity enhanced. Just for the sake of his not winning this fight, I''d like to return it and get our money back. However, I have a 7 day return timeframe and we got the ring on Feb. 14 and the seller is now not responding to my emails. Unfortunately, the seller insisted on a cashier''s check, money order or personal check so we have no recourse through PayPal or our credit card company (which I would have preferred). So if I return the ring, I may never see the refund from the seller. My only form of recourse will be to provide the seller''s very first negative feedback on Ebay that will be as descriptive as possible to forewarn others. With neutral feedback left for him, he has left terrible negative feedback for the buyers - so why not tell the truth and get the negative feedback I''m going to get either way?

The way I see it, the ring is worth quite a bit more than we paid for it, it''s beautiful and I can''t see any flaws. I''m not going to tell any friends or family that it has a crack in it and I don''t have any jewelers that are gong to be personally inspecting it. The jeweler said that the ring being clarity enhanced is similar to someone going to a plastic surgeon and said that the polymer actually makes it stronger now and said he had to really study it to see it himself. We''re happy with the ring but not the buying experience.

 

[Lorelei]

I don't know the legalities here Pam, these are just my thoughts, but the fact is this vendor sold you a diamond which was clarity enhanced and witheld that information. I would have thought that would be enough for you to take this further and get your money back, as the item was not as represented which you purchased. I think legally any enhancements have to be disclosed. Don't talk yourself into keeping this ring if it is not what you want.

Hopefully you will get better help and maybe Neil can chime in again or someone else to advise you, but I would be boiling mad if this happened to me and would go after my rights bigtime. Also I wouldn't be concerned about the timeframe as this diamond IMO was grossly misrepresented, you are entitled to your money back as you did not knowingly buy a C.E or want to buy a C.E diamond . I haven't heard that before that an enhancement makes a flaw stronger, only that it helps hide them, the flaw or crack / feather is still there. Maybe one of the experts can clarify? I wish you luck.

 

[pinkflamingo]

I thought clarity enhanced diamonds were weaker. Think about it, nothing is stronger than a diamond. They also lose a lot of value.

I would contact ebay asap. I would email a final time and tell him to make resolution or you will be leaving neg feedback and filing a claim for misrepresented merchandise with ebay.

 

[denverappraiser]

Date: 2/19/2006 10:32:49 AM
Author: prc

We're happy with the ring ...

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ISA NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[Lorelei]

Diamonds may be the hardest substance but can still be chipped or damaged, especially if there is an existing cleavage line or feather in a vulnerable area. I don't know if an enhancement would be an asset regarding protection in any way as I said previously the crack is still there and could still be prone to damage if unlucky by hitting it the right way. Some C.E diamonds from reputable companies might be ok, but I really think great care is needed if a C.E. diamond is what you want and go with the best vendor with these you can find. But the main thing is if you like the ring Pam and are happy.

 

[indecisive]

I really don''t think that a C.E. 1ct would be worth $8-5k so I don''t think you got a great deal or anything but if you are happy with it that is all that matters!! I am glad you are leaving negative feedback to warn others!

 

[jetmal]

I have had to fight with some sellers a few times on Ebay. Its a big pain in the rump, but you can file a claim thru Ebay, even if its past the 7 day return policy of the seller, becuz he misrepresented his product.....

you would eventually win, I believe, but it will be a headache........

but, if you're still thinking about it.....its an option.

 

[pinkflamingo]

before you make your final decision, do a board search here on clarity enhanced diamonds. there is a lot of information on these forums.

good luck to you!

 

[denverappraiser]

Lorelei,

Clarity enhanced diamonds do require special care but mostly this has to do with how it’s handled during repair and anyone who has a CE stone should be aware of this and alert the jeweler if their ring ever needs work. The enhancement process does not affect the durability of any but the very worst stones. By this I mean that if the stone is already effectively broken in half, gluing the two halves together is a marginal improvement but, obviously, it’s a bit of a stretch to describe this situation a feature. In the more typical situation, the feather being filled is a surface reaching relatively high relief and reflecting feature that can be masked by the treatment. It can make an I-1 or even an I-2 look sort of like an SI-1, which can be a pretty big improvement. The feather is still there, and if the grader is using the GIA grading scale, it’s still and I-1 but it often looks significantly better. For this reason, the GIA scale doesn’t apply to CE stones and the labs that ‘certify’ them will use their own internal grading system which may or may not be useful to the buyer.

You’re correct that it’s legally required in the US for a dealer selling diamonds to specifically disclose clarity enhancement.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ISA NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[Lorelei]

Thanks Neil

It''s a good thing Pam found out, if she didn''t know and had the ring worked on, the filling could have come out and it would have been very scary to say the least

So that is good she can avoid that if it is necessary!

 

[prc]

Thanks so much everyone! Great information on the legal requirement for the clarity-enhancement to be disclosed in the US - Thanks Neil. I am still debating on returning the ring, especially if I can determine that the ring''s worth as a clarity-enhanced stone is less than what we paid. Does anyone know where I can get the "value" or "cost" for a clarity-enhanced stone?

 

[Demelza]

Date: 2/19/2006 11:29:07 AM
Author: prc
Thanks so much everyone! Great information on the legal requirement for the clarity-enhancement to be disclosed in the US - Thanks Neil. I am still debating on returning the ring, especially if I can determine that the ring''s worth as a clarity-enhanced stone is less than what we paid. Does anyone know where I can get the ''value'' or ''cost'' for a clarity-enhanced stone?

I would really encourage you to get an independent appraisal on this stone. While your friend''s stepdad may be very knowledgable, he does work for a jewelry store and can hardly be considered unbiased should you decide to pursue this legally. Moreover, his estimate of value sounds off to me. It seems highly unlikely that he couldn''t get this diamond through a wholesaler for less than $5500. I''m not an expert, but it seems to me that the clarity enhancement would seriously affect the value of the stone. You didn''t say whether he thought the color grading was accurate. I believe the seller represented it as an E color stone. As color can greatly affect stone value, I would want to know for certain what the color is before deciding to keep the stone. Anyway, if it were me, I would definitely get a thorough workup on this stone in writing. It is worth the 100 bucks or so to know everything now so you don''t have regrets later. Good luck!

 

[XChick03]

I am glad you''re happy with the ring and I doubt you could find another 1 ct. for $3500 unless it was a really bad 1 ct. But there was one thing in his description that made me wonder. It says "Stone is approximately 6mm across." I know that he said approximately, but a 1 ct. RB should have a spread around 6.5 mm. My stone is a .85 ct and has a spread larger than 6 mm. Did you compare to other round 1 ct. stones? If it looks smaller than others, that would probably mean its poorly cut and you could find an ideal stone with about the same measurements for the same price that isn''t CE. I also think you should get another appraisal, just to be sure. Just my 2 cents.

 

[Richard Sherwood]

Date: 2/19/2006 10:02:19 AM
Author:prc
We brought the appraisal and the ring to him and he looked at it for free and said that he would grade the stone at a VS1, possibly a VVS2, but said he is tougher than most on his clarity ratings. He said that he was also disturbed by the appraisal because it did not mention that the ring had been clarity enhanced -- he said there was a crack in the ring that had been filled with polymer.

One observation that I would make is that if there is a "crack in the ring" that has been "clarity enhanced" it would be very unlikely for the clarity grade to be a VS1 or VVS2.

The only thing I can think is (a) the jeweler is incorrect about the diamond being clarity enhanced, or (b) it is clarity enhanced, with a VS1-VVS2 "appearance", but an actual clarity grade less than that. This would be a little unusual, as the vast majority of clarity enhanced stones have no better than an SI1 "appearance".

Even though the jeweler was doing you a favor at no cost, I have to say that I personally would not trust anyone''s opinion who did not put it in writing and sign his name to it as a gemologist. Otherwise it carries no weight.

In order to know if you are correctly judging the diamond, you need an expert opinion from an independent gemologist who has no possible bias in the situation (a bricks & mortar jeweler in a competitive postion is not the best judge of a diamond sold by an internet vendor on Ebay. They are on two opposite sides of the fence.)

 

[Slykat12]

If u are happy with the stone keep it. If not read on-

I went to the ebay ad and this seller is clearly full of crap. The whole writeup shows how little the person knows about diamonds and they are simply preying on the uneducated hopefull, trusting, buyer.

The fact is the seller must honor the ad writeup.

Print out the ad now, send emails asking for a refund and have proof that they promised 7 days to return it and are now denying it.

Also, do your negative reveiw and who cares if he negatively reveiws you. You can respond. Yours as a buyer carries more weight anyhoo.

Lastly, IMO ebay is for concert tix, snowshoes and waffles with images of Christ on them not your engagement ring.

Just my 2.5 cents.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

I wouldn''t keep it under any circumstances. It was not what it was represented to be. You can tell him you will remove the negative feedback when you have your cash back. Buyers who see withdrawn feedback know to beware of the seller.

 

[Kaleigh]

Date: 2/19/2006 2:00:02 PM
Author: diamondseeker2006
I wouldn''t keep it under any circumstances. It was not what it was represented to be. You can tell him you will remove the negative feedback when you have your cash back. Buyers who see withdrawn feedback know to beware of the seller.

Ditto

 

[jetmal]

found this on another website:

Fracture Filling
New treatments to make flaws invisible
There is a new process patented a few years ago that melts a kind of crystal into surface-breaking fractures in a diamond. This technique went unnoticed for a short time, but now is better understood and more easily detected by most of the better dealers. The treatment is considered slightly fragile because it can be damaged under the extreme heat of a torch when the diamond is set into a ring. We feel it is unethical for fracture-filled diamonds to be sold without full disclosure of this fact to the consumer. Fracture-filled diamonds should trade for much less than diamonds without this treatment, but in reality they often sell for as much or more because they look like a higher, more expensive clarity grade. Any gem lab certificate will note this treatment, and some labs will not give a certificate for fracture-filled diamonds.
Solution: Ask for a written statement from your jeweler regarding any color or clarity enhancements used. We recommend a certificate from one of the three most respected labs...GIA, AGS or EGL.

 

[Garysax]

I wouldn''t keep it. You can probably do better for the same amount of money and not have it clarity enhanced.

That said, I hate to say it, but you may be screwed. You didn''t pay through paypal (no protection there) and fighting with ebay tends to be a bastard since they are more interested in keeping their sellers happy than their buyers.

The worst of all worlds would be sending this stone back to the (unresponsive) seller and he doesn''t refund your money. That said, I''d take the risk that that might happen and do that. If he doesn''t refund I''d raise hell, find this guy, and actually go through the trouble of charges and the like since it is a very significant amount of money for a big purchase.

And if you decide to keep it, I definitely applaud your decision to leave negative feedback. It''s a tough decision because it hurts you as a seller but you can''t let him get away with this. And as you said, no reason to do neutral since he''d leave negative feedback for you anyway.

 

[prc]

Speaking of boiling mad! Just heard back from the seller who has now said he will "not" refund our purchase price but will offer an exchange (of what?!!!). I was actually thinking about keeping the ring and wanted him to tell me he would give me a refund and how to go about it before the 7 days was up. He now says he won''t do it.

Here is the email from him verbatim:.

"I will not refund you on this. I will only offer an exchange if you can prove there is a legitimate problem. The ring is exactly as described. I am tired of the games you appear to be playing. Ever since you lied to me about overnighting the payment. You were rude and the truth was that you mailed the payment. Someone else that dealt with you on ebay warned me about you."

Here is MY email in response:

I have your email messages in which you say that you would give me a refund for any reason based on xyz. If you thought we were overnight shipping the ring, you misunderstood and I would like to see where I wrote this in my emails. We considered it but my boyfriend got in the post ofc late that day and mailed in regular mail and I told you that up front. We did say that we were paying the $10 extra you requested for it to be sized and overnight service in return. He mailed it on a Weds. Feb. 1 and you received it Feb. 8. We also noticed that you actually mailed the ring overnight on Monday, Feb. 13 but told Jay you were sending it Friday to be received Tuesday. In addition, I was told yesterday by a jewelry store owner that this ring is clarity enhanced, had a crack in it that was filled with polymer and he was disturbed that this wasn''t disclosed on the GRA appraisal.
Who is playing games here? Here are the "games" you have played (which I do not find amusing):
1) You sold me a ring and I have now been advised by an independent source that it is clarity enhanced -- which you did not disclose to me.
2) You told me you would send the ring within 48 hours of receipt of payment yet sent it 120 hours after receipt of the payment.
3) Also, you told me that we could return within 7 days for any reason and you have now refused to keep your word on that promise.

By the way, no one at Ebay has any reason to fault me or warn you. I have paid every auction promptly and have never retracted a bid.

 

[Demelza]

So sorry to hear the seller is behaving like this. I want to reiterate that I think you should definitely take this ring to an independent appraiser for legal verification that the stone is in fact clarity enhanced and not as represented. Perhaps an expert can weigh in here, but I do wonder whether the best way to deal with someone like this is to threaten legal action. He is clearly trying to bully you, likely in the hopes that you'll back down. I would also contact Ebay and see if there is any way they can be of help. Of course it is your choice whether to keep this ring, but I would do whatever I could to get my money back. This seller is not honest and I am highly doubtful you really got a good deal. Only an independent appraisal can tell you whether you did well here, but if you can do SO much better with a reputable vendor, why settle for a diamond of questionable quality? Good luck and keep up posted!

 

[orbaya]

Since the stone was misrepresented and he won''t refund you, would it be worth getting a lawyer to write a letter to this seller? There is quite a bit of money at stake here. He broke a contract and sold something that wasn''t as described and not fully disclosed. I hope you are keeping copies of ALL correspondence between you two. Perhaps the seller will be more accomodating due to a *friendly* letter from a lawyer.

I hope things work out for you.

 

[Slykat12]

Dear PRC, I consider myself a David Horowitz wanna be and think that you would better be served with a CLEAR and SHORT EMAIL to the seller like this:

Dear Seller, I would to like a FULL refund in cash for this item as your ebay ad says I am entitled to. Please note I am requesting this prior to the 7 day deadline. I have copied the ad and have copies of all correspondance. If you do not return my money in full I am prepared to take you to small claims court as you are violating your EBAY ad and that is illegal. If you do not contact me within 24 hours to state you are wiring me the funds I will be forced to report your fraudulant practices and file my claim.
The end-That stuff you guys are bickering about is silly.

The ad says you can return it for any reason. Do not waste time bickering with him you are 100% right.

By the way below is a cut and paste from his feedback section. Notice he says 100% refunds on ALL items. You will win in court in fact in California it is treble damages for fraud or the cap of 7500.00 .


Item less than described and represented, but still a very good deal!
Buyer lgllife ( 5 ) Jan-09-06 14:25 5066596264
Reply by aquablueocean: 100% Refund Offered on all items.

 

[Garysax]

I was afraid all this might happen. Good luck, keep being firm, pushing for a refund. Talk to Ebay. If necessary move to small claims court. The ad says full refund no matter what, cut and dry. There is NO way he can get around that. Short of him moving somewhere and you not being able to find him, this seems pretty open and shut. In terms of all the rest, he''s just trying to skirt the point. Don''t accept that. The real issue here is the seller''s refusal to refund your money.

Be prepared to take some time and effort to set this straight but I think you''ll be able to do it, it''ll just be a pain.

 

[valeria101]

Date: 2/19/2006 10:32:49 AM
Author: prc

The way I see it, the ring is worth quite a bit more than we paid for it, it's beautiful and I can't see any flaws.

I am not so sure about the ~9k appraisal value. It sounds like allot for CE. You may want to work out some reality check on that - looking for CE. Certified colorless VS rounds at Yehuda (LINK) may give a clue... although there is something to be said for the certification bit for high color. There are other places.

I'd feel terrible for being cheated like that, but... I can't see the ring from here either

Of course it is no need to go around telling everyone about it, but if any jeweler works on this stone in the future they will need to know, because the filler used for clarity enhancement is heat sensitive. Not sure if the stone can be damaged with exposure to heat (=jeweler's torch, not a summer afternoon...), but the filler will. If the seller had presented the merchandise for what it is, this would have been mentioned, I'd bet.

The 'VS' claim with CE is not very substantial price-wise. The diamond is still supposed to be priced according to the clarity grade it has even if the large feather that was filled in doesn't show now. I really have not found 'VVS' assigned to a clarity enhanced diamond. It makes no sense to me either - given that the clarity grades for these diamonds refer to the state of the stone before enhancement not after.

Oh well, I am glad to hear that you guys are OK with it, but the layer upon layer of misrepresentation does leave a bitter taste

My 2c. Hoping to see the ring!

 

[pinkflamingo]

This seller is not honest and I am highly doubtful you really got a good deal.

I totally agree with this. If he were really "giving away this ring" for thousands under the retail value, he wouldn''t be acting like he is.

Sorry you are having to go through this.

 

[pinkflamingo]

I have nothing to do with this site, but I did quick google search for "clarity enhanced diamonds."
here are some prices for these "clarity enhanced diamonds"

http://www.diamonds-usa.com/diamonds/Find_Loose_Diamonds_Action.asp?whichpage=3&OrderBy=&oldwizard=Diamonds&wizard=Diamonds&Did=17221&MDSID=1

http://www.diamonds-usa.com/diamonds/Find_Loose_Diamonds_Action.asp?OrderBy=3&whichpage=9&xord=&oldwizard=Diamonds&wizard=Diamonds&Did=17177&MDSID=1
They are literally half price. I wonder if he buys diamonds like these, sets them in cheap settings to sell on ebay.

I saw a 1.18 carat F Si2 Clarity enhanced for $2909.