May be cancelling wedding :( (long)

[rainbowtrout]

My friend has parents like this re: going back and forth on money, so all judgment aside, speaking practically:


Can you find a way for them to give you the money for the wedding as a lump sum/make the contracts in your name, get your dress in your home, etc? That way if something like this happens again, you have control over what is happening.



I think something people are ignoring is that there is an etiquette to GIVING gifts as well. You do not give a gift and then dictate terms, you do not give a gift and then fret over how it is used. You do not give a gift and then take it back on a whim. Then it is not a gift, it is a conditional exchange at best. Just like there is an etiquette to recieving gifts, there is also one to giving them.


When you decide to give anyone money for ANY other occasion, would you in your wildest dreams say, OK, you know that Christmas money? Well, you have to buy X dress from X store and go to Y party with it. No! It's a GIFT.

Yes, a wedding is a lot of money. If parents or whomever are not comfortable with that money being used as it may, they should not give it in the first place.

 

[Mandarine]

Just a thought (and this may not make any sense giving the circumstances)..

But why don''t you sit down with your parents (with or without FI) and talk about all of this...in a way that nobody feels threatened (maybe at a coffee shop or something so it''s "neutral" territory). Then you can say how uncomfortable you are feeling, how horrible you felt after receiving this email, etc. I would then say I want to pay for it all...not right now, but little by little give them back what they''re putting in? or some of it?

Just an idea...

M~

 

[Mara]

robbie...sorry that you felt i was being harsh, i really do think there is two sides to this story here and i have never been one to just say 'oh i'm so sorry that XYZ is doing this to YOU' kind of thing. i always try to think outside of the box when people post their stories on here, like 'what is the other person thinking?'...because we often do only get the one side of the story and usually it's never quite as harsh as the person is perceiving (i try to do this in real life too, aka not think that it's all about ME) at the time when emotions are so high.

i also have some experience with family members who say or do things that at times you think are just totally out there or could be construed as mean...but i never even thought to view it as verbal abuse. my grandma and mom both have this personality trait where they sometimes just do not think before speaking, i also have such a thick skin that i just tend to roll my eyes at half the things they might say (which some more emotional souls might term as verbal abuse), because i adore them, my mom made great sacrifices in her life to have me and raise me, my grandma also was hugely instrumental in my life and how i was raised and i know i wouldn't be who i am (and who i like being) if it was not for them...even though they are far from perfect and many times i think 'i cannot believe you just said that to me!'. i also think that most people are just a little bit crazy in general as well, everyone has their quirks, no one is perfect, etc etc. acceptance for me when it comes to family is a great way to stay sane.

i think overall in general our parents and closest family members are here to drive us a little bit nutty some of the time...

in any case, i do think that you guys are doing this because it's easier (it just is right?) even if you don't want to really admit it, that's fine. regardless, all of this is just me calling it how i see it, which could be wrong, it's not my life, it is yours and it's your relationships, i can only give my own experiences and wisdom now that i am older and maybe it will help. i figure if it's posted on here i'll give my opinion...surprise!

 

[luckystar112]

I understand where Robbie is coming from, and I think that she has already admitted her faults so people can stop pointing them out to her now. Her father shouldn''t get off scott-free just because HE decides that he is still willing to pay for the wedding. He has just as much invested into this wedding as Robbie, and it would be JUST as awkward for him to call it off as it would for her. After this wedding, he will no longer have any financial "obligation" to her. (For lack of a better word--he really isn''t obligated to do anything.)And he *should* start treating her like more of an adult. When I was reading his emails, I couldn''t help but feel like he was talking to her like a small child. I guess it was the use of "mommy" instead of "mom" or "mother", which could be nothing--but sort of rubbed me the wrong way. I digress--

I think that his last email was an attempt at an apology. He seems like a very proud man who doesn''t say "sorry" for much. Given the circumstances, and how so much can change in 3 months (or is it two now?), and how a wedding is a serious step into adulthood--that their relationship will inevitably change, and she will be glad that things turned out the way they did.

 

[surfgirl]

Robbie, it sounds like you''ve made the best possible decision you can make for yourself in this situation. And while I think it''s better not to take money from someone you dont want much to do with after the wedding, I also understand how much trouble not taking the money will also cause. It''s really a difficult situation either way. I hope everything turns out for the best and you can enjoy the rest of the planning stage!

 

[Mara]

hehe lucky...i won't even go there re the Mommy thing, that creeps me out a little. i know different families interact in their own way and have their own 'names' for the family members, but i can't imagine if my Dad called my Mom Mommy to me at my age. He usually says 'Your Mother'.

(i also do not think that Robbie's father is blameless or anything like that by the way!)

 

[cellososweet]

geez this is sticky. well. . . i''ll chime in i suppose. hopefully i don''t offend.

i think that you should sit down and talk to your father. ask him what specifically made him angry (is this a culmination of things that have been brewing, was it your tone, is this something that happens often?) Don''t talk, just listen for a second. Neither party handled it well, in all honesty, and everyone got hurt. i do think that your father went a little overboard, but you really do need to see his point of view. If this is something that has been ongoing, maybe he''s just had enough. it doesn''t make it right for him to "go off the deep-end" about it (as i said, both parties didn''t handle it very well), but there might be (in his mind), a justifiable reason. maybe you need to hear that reason.

parents are people first and foremost. they deserve to be treated with respect based on their attitudes and how they treat others. if you feel that you have been treated unfairly, getting hyped up and being angry about it won''t make it better. while it''s natural, it''s not helpful. talk to him. and to your mother. maybe she conveyed the arguement as much worse than it was.

i think that it was generous of your father to offer to pay for the wedding. we are having a vow renewal next year and my parents are helping to contribute to it (because they feel responsible for our wedding "going under" last time. which is not true. but they really want to help. and bc they feel like they owe me something for some reason. *sigh* silly parents, bless them). no matter how much i wanted something done my way or if my mother was being slow, if i spoke to my mother in a tone of voice where she even so much as thought i was yelling, the rug would be pulled out right from under me and i''d be left broke on my arse. and my mum can get pretty darn tichy and inappropriate at times. i just tell her, "Look mum, i understand that you are upset and i''m upset too. This isn''t going anywhere and I refuse to have a conversation with you if you are going to yell at me. I am hanging up now." And i''ve done it. and sometimes she''s gotten more p.o.''ed and pulls the parent-as-an-authority schtick and sometimes she''s gotten over it. but. . .at least i did the right thing.

during the convo with your dad, you need to be honest about what happened and see if he has the whole story. then you need to be honest to yourself, and to your FI. for the first few years that me and dh dated i painted a picture of satan in my dh''s head in regards to what type of person my dad was. i hated my father. long, deep-seeded anger. After getting off the phone with my dad i would scream and cry that I hated him. so, of course my dh didn''t like my dad. but, after i calmed my rear down and realized that my dad is human and even if what he does or says is convoluted to me, it makes sense to him. i talked to him about how his actions hurt me and we came to an understanding: i understood that what he did was what he thought was right and he never meant to hurt me. he understood that it hurt and that he needed to acknowledge that it wasn''t best. and i let my dh know that my father was *gasp* human. and it''s been good from there on out.

maybe you need to postpone the wedding. it''s not as horrible to do as it feels. a little bit of inconvenience now to make the years to come better? might be worth it. i cancelled mine three times due to finances. i know how a crushed wedding feels. but. . . . if i were you i would not be able to enjoy the day knowing that there was so much tension and that i took money from someone i was arguing with. i just feel that it will create more of a rift and your parents will expect more of you since they paid. and if you peace-out after the wedding and distance themselves they''ll feel used because well. . . i don''t want to say it. . . but. . . that''s how i''d feel.

oh and p.s.- my father is diagnosed bi-polar and is on medication (and when he''s off it, oh honey this situation wouldn''t even come close to his behavior. he is undeniably loopy!) please don''t refer to someone as bi-polar if you aren''t sure. maybe things just make him p.o''d. i''d certainly ring my child''s neck if they yelled at their father. doesn''t make me bi-polar. if you truly think he might have an issue, please see if you can ask you rabbi (your jewish right?) to speak to him and see if he''s open to a medical evaluation. it worked for my dad
good luck!

 

[cellososweet]

geez i get wordy when i''m procrastinating (supposed to be studying). sorry robbie!

 

[RoseAngel04]

Looks like I missed a lot being out of town this weekend...

First off...I''m sorry you have to deal with all this drama so close to your wedding Robbie. *HUGS* to you. I haven''t read all of the posts regarding this topic but I am glad that it seems both you/your FI and your parents have calmed down a little. Tensions and emotions seem to run high during weddings and it looks like exactly this has happened with you and your parents. What was a little dispute over invitations escalated to guests your parents didn''t agree with inviting resulting in your Dad backing out and then coming back to his senses. I don''t know your Father, but I imagine that when he said that he and your Mom wouldn''t be attending or paying for your wedding that he was reacting in the heat of the moment...not such a great thing to do. Many people need "cool off" time after a heated argument to rationalize the situation....from what I read it sounds like he has had time to realize that the bigger picture (aka...YOUR wedding) is more important than a disagreement on who to invite (or not invite). From what you have shared with us it does seem like there are other underlying issues that probably should be worked out with you and your family...if I were you I would do my best to work on this together.

Anywho...I am glad that it looks like your wedding will go on after this bump in the road...I hope you and your family can agree to disagree on some topics and move forward to your big day.

 

[ljmorgan]

I would just add that if you plan on cutting your father out of your life, it''s not fair to "act as normal" and pay for the wedding with his money.

 

[indecisive]

Date: 6/25/2007 2:47:17 PM
Author: rainbowtrout

I think something people are ignoring is that there is an etiquette to GIVING gifts as well. You do not give a gift and then dictate terms, you do not give a gift and then fret over how it is used. You do not give a gift and then take it back on a whim. Then it is not a gift, it is a conditional exchange at best. Just like there is an etiquette to recieving gifts, there is also one to giving them.


When you decide to give anyone money for ANY other occasion, would you in your wildest dreams say, OK, you know that Christmas money? Well, you have to buy X dress from X store and go to Y party with it. No! It''s a GIFT.

Yes, a wedding is a lot of money. If parents or whomever are not comfortable with that money being used as it may, they should not give it in the first place.

I don''t see how any one is ignoring the etiquette of gift giving. No one has said her parents are doing everything properly. We can only give advice to Robbie though, not her parents. She only has control over her own actions, not her parents. Just because someone acts poorly does not mean you should act poorly in response. I think parents assume that when they pay for their child''s wedding they will continue to have a relationship with that child and it isn''t fair to have them pay if she is intending to distance herself from them and her fiance honestly doesn''t like her father.

 

[goldenstar]

Robbie, I totally feel for you and I''m sorry you''re going through this.

I haven''t had time to read all the posts, but I think I know the gist. I just had a thought about the most recent email your dad sent, the one about still attending and paying for the wedding. Even though the fight with your mom had nothing to do with your dad, I can undertand that he''s upset that you yelled at her. Parents are usually a team and an attack on one is an attack on both. Also, wouldn''t you be upset if someone yelled at your FI, even if the fight had nothing to do with you? We all want to protect and defend our loved ones.

I was wondering if you apologized to your mom for the original argument. Believe me, I know that moms are not always right, and they do infuriating things. But even if someone is wrong and makes you mad, they don''t deserve to be screamed at. Does this statement make sense-- I am allowed to scream at you when you are wrong, or do the wrong thing, or make me mad? I understand how it is when another person starts something, and you lose control also so it escalates. But when the smoke clears we can still do the right thing.

I don''t know the whole story, but I don''t think there''s anything that would lead to the conclusion that your mom doesn''t deserve an apology. From your dad''s second email, I think it would really smooth things over. He just wants to know that you respect them. My parents have done a lot of things I don''t respect, but in the totality of the circumstances I still respect them overall and I try to show it. Also, when my mom upsets me I try to put myself in her shoes. I try to think about the reasons she''s doing the things she does. And that helps a whole lot. I may disagree, but at least I understand.

 

[rainbowtrout]

Ok, I see I''ll have to clarify.


A) In this specific thread, there have been several comments made about how her parents deserve X amount of control over the wedding or the guestlist simply because they are paying for it. I didn''t go through and pick out specific people because I did not want to give the impression of attacking them. I was thinking about it and realized that, like cash bars, this is one of those things that just seems off in any other situation.

I was not speaking about the seperate issue of taking the money when you dislike the person or don''t intend to carry on a relationship with them. It''s not a justification of anything; I was just making the point that wanting to do what one wants with a gift is not radically out of the ordinary.


B) I have noticed on a few previous threads as well as this one that there is a slight tendency to be tetchy about couple''s attitudes towards gifts, be it towards wedding gifts or their parents paying. Yes, people can be bratty. But few people turn it around and asks what is the obligation of the person giving the gift?

 

[iheartscience]

Robbie, I think you made the right decision. I''ve read this whole long thread (believe it or not!) and it sounds like you''re making the best of a tough situation.

I also want to point out that while a crappy e-mail or yelling doesn''t necessarily constitute abuse, to me it definitely sounds like your father is on the abusive side. Waking you up in the middle of the night to yell at you more about a fight just really blows my mind.

I''m sure there is truth to both sides of this thread (i.e. I''m sure you can improve how you deal with your parents, too-can''t we all?!) but I definitely think 3 months before your wedding isn''t an appropriate time to start trying to fix or change your relationship with your volatile father. If it were me, I would e-mail him and your mom back and tell them you''re sorry you yelled at your mother and skipped your sister''s recital and that you hope that you and your parents can get along with each other better in the future. It seems appropriate for you to extend the olive branch back.

I hope you''re able to move past this and truly enjoy your wedding!

P.S. I''m 25 and I still call my parents "mommy" or "mama" and "daddy" on occasion, so I don''t think it''s that weird that your dad referred to your mom that way!

 

[Haven]

Robbie--I just wanted to give you some support for your decision. I know a lot has been said regarding what you should and shouldn''t do, how to handle things, et cetera, and I want you to know that you obviously know what will work best for you and I wish you luck!

Also, I want to share that I recently stood up in my best friend''s wedding, and she found herself in a similar situation two weeks before her wedding. In the end, they had a beautiful wedding, her parents enjoyed every last minute of it, and they probably have forgotten all of the anger and ill-will they had towards each other during that highly emotional time.

 

[dmamsquared]

I once (not very long ago) relayed to my daughter that I hated my mother''s guts. I called her a witch and wished her dead. I was really saying that I hated the mentally ill person that my mother had become. I felt powerless over her "condition." She wasn''t normal, hence she was always the center of some sort of dysfunction. I chose to distance myself from all of it for many years. But the act of distancing myself did not make me stronger or a better person, for that matter. What kind of stable person would wish their mother dead? And I always felt a void in my heart that neither my husband nor my daughter could fill. That''s what I hated.


So getting married and distancing yourself may not improve the dynamics of your family of origin. Your father''s biggest mistake was clicking SEND instead of CANCEL. He needed to vent. WE ALL NEED TO VENT! For your sake, don''t get all hung up on his words, his actions, etc. That''s what keeps you the victim and powerless in many ways. You don''t need anyone''s approval. But it sounds like you do need your parents. Accept their gift graciously and know that you have alot of work ahead of you. And if they have raised a kind, loving daughter, and I am certain that they have, you will find your way back eventually. It''s in the genes!

 

[Harleigh]

Gosh, Robbie...I hope you manage to get all this worked out. My parents are very controlling, and though I doubt they will offer any money for a wedding, I fear taking any of it because they will have a "say" in how things are done. My FF tolerates my parents and I can''t imagine him taking money from them, but I don''t really know where that leaves us for a wedding budget. FF wants to run off to Hawaii to get married, but it makes me sad to think of everyone who won''t be able to make it. It has made me sick to my stomach to read your sad posts. Do what you have to do, try to maintain a relationship with your parents without killing one another, and most of all, be happy.

Best of luck to you!

Harleigh

 

[luckystar112]

Robbie...

I''ve been thinking of you. If you read this, I hope you will come back to the board. We miss you around here.

 

[robbie3982]

Date: 7/7/2007 2:37:04 PM
Author: luckystar112
Robbie...

I''ve been thinking of you. If you read this, I hope you will come back to the board. We miss you around here.

Awe, thanks luckystar! I promise I haven''t been avoiding you guys on purpose. It''s just been crazy busy with less than 2 months til the wedding. Everything is still on as originally planned. I called my mom and apologized to her and we''re perfectly fine now. My dad seems to be pretending like the whole thing never happened, so we''ll just go along with that.

 

[akw94]

Robbie,
Glad things are going well. Yes, it definitely does get busy and so exciting in the last few months.
Wow! 61 days for me!