May be cancelling wedding :( (long)

[Pandora II]

You poor thing!

It sounds to me like both sides need to start moving away from the parent-child dynamic here.

Is there a relative who could mediate for you? A grandparent for example who could keep the peace whilst allowing both sides to thrash this out?

My father is very keen on the lists of past sins since I was 3 years old etc and I have learnt to sit though them and then congratulate him for his fantastic memory at his age. If you fight back you will always lose with parents...

Keep calm - could your FI go and have a man-to-man chat with your dad on his own?

 

[monarch64]

Aw, Robbie, sorry to hear your family and you are having sort of a blowup. I hope you don''t cancel your wedding over this. I really don''t have advice for you but I hope things get smoothed out and you can move forward with everything as planned.

 

[Tacori E-ring]

Date: 6/23/2007 7:56:43 PM
Author: monarch64
Aw, Robbie, sorry to hear your family and you are having sort of a blowup. I hope you don''t cancel your wedding over this. I really don''t have advice for you but I hope things get smoothed out and you can move forward with everything as planned.

I agree. I hope everything blows over b/c chances are you will later regret not having your father there. I understand you feel like you have "proven" yourself as a mature adult but your parents obviously feel differently. As hard as it is you cannot make them "forget" what happened. You just have to let them do it in their own time. That''s really the meaning of forgiveness.

 

[robbie3982]

I was out of the house all day and just came back to all of these posts. Wow. I really appreciate all of the advice.

Rainbowtrout: I''m seriously considering calling off the big wedding. It would have serious repercussions though that I think FI and I need to think about for a while before we make that decision. If the relationship between my parents and me ends, it won''t be over wedding invitations. This will just be the straw that broke the camel''s back.

Independent Gal: I think that he does feel very threatened by my ex''s parents. I don''t, however, think that that''s what''s at the bottom of this. My dad has been very emotionally abusive for my entire life. He would blow up at me like this for little things all the time when I lived at home. We never had a good relationship until more recently after I officially moved out of my parents'' house. Example: once when I was 17 he asked me to spot him while he was weight lifting and I said I couldn''t right then because I had homework. He started screaming at me about how I was an ungrateful brat, I started screaming back because that''s how our dynamic has always been (learned behavior perhaps?) and it ended with him taking my driver''s license and threatening to throw me out of the house. His reactions are always out of proportion like this. In high school health class one year we learned about the abuse cycle (tension building phase, abusive incident, honeymoon phase) that someone mentioned in Diamond Smitten''s thread. That''s when I realized that my dad was an emotionally abusive person. It doesn''t matter what I do, there will always be another incident like this where he''s set off by next to nothing. The invitation argument was between me and my mom. I had told her the other day that I wanted to invite the ex''s parents and she never said anything about it not being ok. It was just a normal conversation. I''m guessing that after we had our fight she was mad at me so she told my dad about it to get him riled up. I''ve suggested family counseling to him numerous times and he always declines saying therapy isn''t for him and he''s too old to change. His feelings are "this is how I am, love it or leave it" and I just can''t take it anymore. I really can''t say any of the things you suggested to him. I just can''t. I know that this might make me immature, but after all of the years of him cutting me down whenever he feels like it and then thinking it''ll all be ok when he buys me something to make up for it I know that it''s just going to continue. I understand that it''s his problem and that he feels like he failed, but he''s taking it out on me, and no matter how well I know that logically, it still hurts every time he cuts me down and I just feel like I have to get myself out of this situation. Can I still be your bridol if I get married at a backyard bbq?

Sum: My dad is definitely unbalanced. I''m pretty sure that he''s bi-polar. He has manic and depressive phases and it''s usually during a depressive phase that he has outbursts like this. Perhaps it makes me a bad person knowing that he has this disorder (or something like it) and that I still want to discontinue contact, but I feel like if he won''t get help for it, then I need to remove myself from the situation.

I am the oldest and I''m sure that he is having issues with "letting me go" even though I''ve been on my own for over a year and a half.

As far as blowing over, it''s possible that he''ll be pretending like none of this ever happened by next week, but I don''t think that I would be able to go along with that. He has these outbursts frequently. He was constantly threatening throughout college to stop paying for it whenever he''d get in one of these moods. Even if this blows over I think that it would still be possible for another to occur before or even at the wedding. I''ve been stressing a lot about them threatening to cancel the wedding lately. It actually came up in my last therapy session (I finally started going to therapy recently for my generalized anxiety disorder which I was sure I had. Turns out I was right...). I''m so glad I finally started going and that my anti-anxiety medication is working because otherwise I''m sure I''d be having a panic attack right now. I''ve tried in the past to cut off contact with my father, but my mother always guilts me into trying to make things better with him.

I am fairly young (24) so I can see what you''re saying about them having a hard time seeing me as an adult. I''m sure I''m not helping by acting like a bratty child when we get into a fight. We really don''t communicate well at all and I think talking to them at all right now would just make things worse.

Cara: I really don''t think that an apology from my parents would make anything better. I definitely don''t want to have to walk on eggshells on my wedding day. Plus, I just don''t know that I would feel right making nice just to get their money. I wouldn''t be able to pretend everything was fine for the rest of my life and I don''t know that I want to live with myself for kind of tricking them into paying. I''m sure that the costs will be thrown back in my/our face after the wedding at some point. I really want to make a plan, but FI wants to wait a little while and see what happens.

I agree that my reverting to childish ways escalated the whole thing and I agree that the dynamic between my family and me is unhealthy.

Luckystar: FI''s mom''s opinion is that it''s our wedding and we should be able to invite anyone we want. She doesn''t care whose parents they are. He''s very serious about me not calling or emailing. When I lived at home, he tried to throw me out of the house numerous times and the only reason he didn''t was because my mom wouldn''t let him. The fight between them generally went "If you throw her out, I''m leaving!" I really don''t think that my forwarding the email to my mother made anything worse. If I would''ve done nothing I still would''ve received the "I never want to see you again" email. When he gets mad, he stews on it and just gets madder and madder. When I was living at home and we''d have a fight that went unresolved before going to bed, he''d wake me up multiple times in the night (madder each time) to scream at me about more reasons why he was mad.

I''m sure I''ve been a bit of a bridezilla about some things, but at the same time I''ve bent over backwards about others. My mom definitely wasn''t annoyed about the Jr/Sr thing on the invite. When he''s in a mood like this, there''s not really any point in responding unless I''m apologizing, which I''m not going to do. The cheating comment really really bothered me.

Maisie: I''m trying to brainstorm alternatives to the big wedding (the free wedding that''s included with our sandals honeymoon, a backyard bbq with a way scaled down guest list at someone''s house...), but FI isn''t ready to give up on what we have planned yet.

Mara: I really appreciate that you''re willing to tell me how you see it even though you disagree with everyone else. We have discussed our relationship and it basically boils down to the fact that he thinks I''m a bad daugther and I resent him for all of the emotional abuse that I''ve dealt with from him for my entire life. He never seems to think that anything I do is good enough whether it was school (even though I did very well in school: 9th in my class in hs and 3.6 gpa in college) or being a good person. The majority of the "crap" that he''s put up with is a bunch of imagined slights that he blows out of proportion in his head (example: he once sent me a nasty email for not sending him an ecard on his birthday early on the morning of his birthday. I hadn''t sent an ecard because I''d sent a real card which arrived in the mail that afternoon...) It is not something that can be fixed without therapy and he''s refused to go despite numerous suggestions. There is a definite abuse pattern with his behavior and it''s not going to just magically change.

As far as not having a hard life with them, I definitely did. My life has been filled with blow ups like this from him for as long as I can remember, and until I got to that high school health class where we learned about abuse, I thought it was normal. I learned that the way to deal with a fight was to scream and yell, slam doors and hangup. It''s a hard habit to break. I do my best not to act like a bratty child, but it''s really hard with them. New relationships (friendships, relationship with FI, etc) I''m able to fight much more fair and grown up, but when I''m with my parents I definitely revert to my old ways more often than I''d like and it''s not something that I''m proud of.

I have to disagree with you about family is family. I think even with family there are limits to what you can take. I don''t feel like this is just a silly argument, but rather a continuing abusive pattern that''s unhealthy for me to be a part of. I''m terrified to think about my future children ever having to deal with something/someone like this and terrified that I might turn into a parent like this. It would be one thing if he could recognize what he does and agree to therapy, but he won''t and he''s completely against medication as well. He tried to talk me out of taking anti-depressants when I was diagnosed with depression in college.

There are definitely more underlying issues than just this fight. My dad never feels like I appreciate him or anything he does. It doesn''t matter how many times I say thank you or what I do, it''s never enough. I don''t know what he wants from me, but apparently it''s something I''m not capable of giving him.

I definitely think that he was implying I would cheat should I be faced with my ex again. Maybe I''m reading into it too much, but knowing him the way I do, he meant it as an insult to me disguised as advice. I really think that the "he failed me" thing was a dressed up way of trying to cut me down as well. He brings up those 2 issues almost every fight we have despite the fact that I''ve told him how much it hurts me that he keeps bringing them up.

I''m sure that they see me not going to the recital as a bad thing even though when they told me about the recital they said that it wasn''t a big deal if I couldn''t make it. I just couldn''t deal with my mom at that point and there wouldn''t have been any seeing my sister without her. Due to my sister''s disabilities, she''s always with my mom. I really don''t think that forwarding the email escalated anything. I really think the second email came after he''d been stewing over the situation for the night and judging from past behavior, I think I would''ve gotten that email even if I''d ignored his first email entirely. Unfortunately, I wouldn''t trust them (or even myself for that matter. Like I said, I don''t revert to my childish ways by choice) to not make a scene just because we were in a restaurant. I think any meeting will have to be done in private. FI is really upset about the whole thing. He hates my father and has since very early on in our relationship when he saw how he is to me, my mom and my sister. My dad has no idea that FI hates him as FI is very good at controlling his emotions (I need to have him coach me on this) and is always nice and friendly to him. I really don''t think he''d feel comfortable trying to mediate though.

Surfgirl: I think we''d have to do a very scaled down version of what we were planning even though we didn''t have a huge budget to start out with. I was thinking the same thing about the cheating thing, but I have no idea if it ever happened. He definitely has no reason to think I''d ever be unfaithful. I''ve never cheated on anyone. I think that it''s completely disrespectful to the person your with and it''s not something I could do. The pot is definitely not a problem and hasn''t been for a while. I haven''t touched the stuff in years and never will again. My dress is currently at the tailor''s and I''ve been getting really nervous wondering if he would go and get it without me. I have another fitting scheduled for July 21st, so I can''t go pick it up yet since it''s not done. We''re going to Sandals in St. Lucia for the honeymoon and we have the option of the free included wedding. It''s definitely an option Im considering right now. I know FI would be really hurt if his family wasn''t able to be there though.

Aljdewey: I agree that I didn''t handle the disagreement with my mom in an adult manner and that our fight was mostly due to wedding stress. The fight with my dad, however, is much more deep rooted. I think that your email response would''ve been better than what I sent, but I think I still would''ve received the same reaction. I''ve tried responding like that to previous emails he''s sent like this and it always ends with him getting madder. Even if I send nothing it escalates. He sits there stewing about it, building it up in his head making it worse.

The funny thing about my sister''s concert is that when my mom told me about it it was all "it''s not a big deal if you can''t come. Don''t go out of your way to make it," but now it''s this huge deal that I didn''t go. If I would''ve been able to talk to see my sister w/o my parents I would''ve gone, but with my sister''s disabilities, she''s would''ve been with my mom at all times when she wasn''t on stage. The tension between me and my mom would''ve really upset her. She''s very sensitive to stuff like that. She actually burst into tears when my mom and I were fighting while dress shopping once. Despite all of that, I''m sure that they see my not going as me being an awful sister.

I think at some point I''ll have to call and apologize to my mom, but I really want nothing to do with my father anymore and making things better between me and my mom will open me up to her guilt trips to make things better with him. I really don''t know what to do about that. It''s the way it always happens though. I really don''t think that I''ll regret him not coming to the wedding. I don''t want to have to deal with explaining to everyone why he''s not there, but I don''t think I''ll regret him actually not being there. He skipped my college graduation and I can''t say that I''m sorry he did.

Princess: Thanks for the hugs! I went to a baby shower for a friend today and it was a great way to get my mind off of it. I feel much calmer about it than I did this morning when I was bawling my eyes out.

Haven: I''m trying to gain some perspective by taking a few days to think about what we''re doing without contacting my parents and possibly escalating it further. Like I said in other responses, my dad and I have always had a rocky relationship. I guess I''m a fool for thinking that things had finally changed, but as of recently, things had been going well between us. We''ve definitely had other fights throughout the planning though where I got really nervous that these fights would continue and I cried to FI that we should just elope because it was going to continue. FI kept reminding me though that this is the type of wedding we want and he (naively) thought that there was no way we''d continue fighting like this intermittently throughout the planning. I truly believe that it was a mistake to allow them to pay for the wedding and I wish we wouldn''t have taken it. I think I would regret not having my mom there, but not my dad.

Neatfreak: Thanks for the hugs! I really don''t think that we''ll be able to get down to the bottom of my dad''s behavior without therapy and he''s already made it clear that it''s not an option. I''m pretty sure that I''m acting this way towards my mom because of wedding stress and also because it''s hard to break the habit of how I''m used to acting with her. I need to work on this more and I know this.

Kaleigh: I''m definitely going to try to keep my emotions in control. It''s going to be hard, but with FI''s support, hopefully I can do it.

Whatmeworry: Thanks for the support. I''m definitely taking a cooling off period.

Musey: Thanks for the support!

Bee: I know that them paying for the wedding gives them a say. I''m hoping that we can fix that when we resolve this.

Skippy123: Thanks!

Mrs Mitchell: I''m glad that things worked out for you. I hope they do for me as well.

Maria D: I completely agree with you about his put downs. I never really thought of my forwarding his emails to my mom as interfering with their marriage, but I guess you''re right. I won''t be forwarding them to her anymore. The whole him being uncomfortable with Ben''s parents there thing killed me becuase he''s being such a hypocrite about it. If you recall the drama with my cousin Y at Thanksgiving, we had a similar situation when it came time for my sister''s bat mitzvah guest list. She said awful things to FI and I and both my parents, FI and I were all furious at her. I told them I thought it was wrong for them to invite her to my sister''s bat mitzvah and they said that even though we were all mad at her and would be uncomfortable around her that it wouldn''t be fair to my sister to not invite her because she wanted her there. I guess they have the luxury of being hypocrites since their paying, though.

I really don''t know that stopping by the house would be a good thing right now since my dad has strictly forbidden it. In the state he''s in right now he''s likely to call the police on us for trespassing.

Minims: Scaling the wedding back is definitely an option that we''re considering. No matter what we do though, I really dont'' think I want my dad there. I definitely do not want him walking me down the aisle nor do I want to have a father daughter dance.

Snlee: Thanks!

Deco: I can''t find that thread. Could you post a link? You''re remembering my family dynamic very accurately. I''m going to do my best to act maturely in the future.

Oshinbreez: FI''s parents don''t care about them being there. Only my parents care. I nevere disrespected his feelings about having them there. I didn''t respond to it at all actually. He and I never even discussed it at all before he sent that email. If this is the end of my relationship with my parents, it won''t be just because of this event. It will be the straw that broke the camel''s back.

Pandora: Unfortunately, none of my grandparents are alive and I don''t really think that any relatives want to get in the middle of everything. I really don''t think that FI wants to play mediator either. He''s also very mad at my dad and wants to have nothing further to do with him.

Monarch: Thanks for the good wishes and support.

Tacori: Everyone says I''ll regret having him there, but I really don''t think I would.

 

[indecisive]

Date: 6/23/2007 10:18:03 PM
Author: robbie3982


Pandora: Unfortunately, none of my grandparents are alive and I don''t really think that any relatives want to get in the middle of everything. I really don''t think that FI wants to play mediator either. He''s also very mad at my dad and wants to have nothing further to do with him.

He wants nothing further to do with him but is still considering having your parents pay for the wedding? I hope this works out for you. I know it must be hard.

 

[luckystar112]

Wow Robbie.

I hope you feel better.

At least you know you can have a free wedding with your sandals package...that is a great option. You could always do that, and then throw a more formal reception later when you get back in town.

Your father reminds me a LOT of my mother. When I was 14, which was....1997....I went on an 8th grade field trip to Washington D.C. that just so happened to fall on the week of Mother's day. When we got back from our trip, all the parents were waiting at the school to pick up their children. My mother power-walked up to me and started screaming at me for not finding a way to call her. I was 14...forced to remain in a group...cell phones weren't popular...no one else called their moms, and my mother was taking it as a personal attack against her. She had been letting herself get worked up over it the whole week and completely embaressed me in front of everyone. She had a heart attack two years later, btw. She was only 38 years old. She survived, thank God.

The way your father acts is so unhealthy...and it explains why you shouted at your mother on the phone. I really do think it is a learned behavior. I think that you and I have a lot in common because we are the same age, both have anxiety problems, and both are TERRIFIED of becoming our overly sensitive parents. I sometimes feel as though I am doomed to repeat my mother's life.

It sounds as though this has become a pattern for him....generous when he wants to be and then doesn't let you forget it. I think it is so unfortunate that you two have this sort of relationship, and I hope you're right that you won't someday regret it. I 100% understand where you are coming from and the feelings you have about your relationship. It sounds like he uses money as a form of control and maybe it IS time for you to break away and live your own life...and let him come to you.

I wish you luck! I'm really glad to hear you have options for your wedding. If your FI's parents really want to be there, then you should make your decision quick so that they can get tickets. Remind your FI that plane tickets go up by the hour!

 

[luckystar112]

Date: 6/23/2007 10:38:13 PM
Author: indecisive

Date: 6/23/2007 10:18:03 PM
Author: robbie3982


Pandora: Unfortunately, none of my grandparents are alive and I don''t really think that any relatives want to get in the middle of everything. I really don''t think that FI wants to play mediator either. He''s also very mad at my dad and wants to have nothing further to do with him.

He wants nothing further to do with him but is still considering having your parents pay for the wedding? I hope this works out for you. I know it must be hard.

Very true. You can''t have it both ways, unfortunately.

 

[enbcfsobe]

Robbie, my mom fits the same mold. It is very difficult to navigate, even after moving out and becoming financially independent. I have found that taking the "high road" and sometimes apologizing for things I don''t feel all that sorry for need to be balanced with sometimes taking a stand and pushing back. It is difficult to find a balance, but as long as she is not physically abusive I think it is important for me to preserve a relationship with her. At least she comes by it "honestly" -- she was abused both physically and emotionally by her father and first husband. While this isn''t an excuse, it helps me put it into perspective. I, too, fear becoming a parent like her, or a spouse like her. At the same time, I know that she probably struggled to not become a parent or spouse like her own. If she only succeeded a little (by not being physically abusive), it is something, and I strive every day to take it a few steps farther in my own life. It means that I need to set boundaries both on my relationship with her and on how much of her I carry over into my relationships with others. It has taken quite a bit of therapy to get to a point where I can manage her (most of the time), so, as some others mentioned, don''t expect an immediate solution to the underlying problem. While there is a limit to what you can take, I do think that you would regret excluding your father entirely. It may take a little bit of time to work out how far you are willing to bend, but I strongly believe it is worth trying to communicate and maybe even compromise a little bit. For people like him, all they see is what they feel they did for you, and to them it looks like they made your life easy as pie. They don''t or won''t see the pain that their emotional manipulation has caused, but I have found that is entirely not worth it to try to make them see the light as it were. You won''t change him -- you just need to figure out on what level and to what extent you can interact with him without either (1) him pushing you over the edge and down to his level or (2) giving up your self-respect. It''s not easy, but I really encourage you to try.

 

[decodelighted]

Hey Robbie,
Here is one link ... it''s in the Family Matters section ... there may be other similar discussions.

 

[door knob solitaire]

Robbie,

Your individual posts to each participant in this thread was so heart warming and knowing what you are dealing with ...you were so considerate to everyone to take the time to address their opinions. I don't know if your parents are responsible for that...or if you are. But you are one fabulous woman!

I had the same situation except it was with my mother concerning an bf's aunt. She and I were so close that in High School she would call me in the morning to learn what I was wearing to class. Mom thought it was a tad strange for a woman with kids my age to show interest in juvenile trivial conversations. She was my best friend (my mother was not). This woman was monumental in helping me make decisions for my future...the decisions my mother was not involved in. My mother had the same intepredations your father is expressing. I really do think their parenting was challenged. I am confident that my mother was exceedingly threatened. (When this woman passed away, I lived in another city...and was not aware of her passing...my mother waited until 9:45pm the night of the burial to inform me what had transpired in the day...I had no opportunity to say goodbye...mom had the last laugh...she had taken back control. But at what cost?)

My husband often has me to examine my motives ( When I am struggling with a decision etc...)...Your motives to invite them aren't diabolical...your desire to have them witness your union is out of love, friendship and a strong bond families share when tragedy or just life is shared. If these people weren't important to you you wouldn't have considered it. How you met is not as important as how your friendship has flourished. If you dont invite them per his request...or cave in as some may say...you are placating to this wacky imagination he has on the situation.

Robbie, Your wedding is held together with strings...the puppetmaster is controlling the performance. He is not happy with you. (valid or not...yes he is acting like a booger head, but he holds the strings).

On the other hand...you know the scripture that tells you respect your parents and all will be well with you. You just wish He would have added a caveat...such as ...except when your parents are being unreasonable-without viable merit...or cause.

It sounds black and white...you want to have the old wedding...you jump through hoops. If you are tried of hoop jumping...pull back on details...simplify...you can do wonders being frugal. The board has great advice...you know they will help you with the details.

Let a few sundowns pass before you do something rash. I think you may regret not attempting a conversation with your father. I encourage you to consider it.

Expressing support in your decision...DKS

 

[HappyAnniversary]

Wow Robbie--If you were here I would just hug you. You sure have a lot to deal with. I had only a teeny tiny bit of the problem of someone getting mad for no reason when you have no power (being a kid) and I know what it is like to "walk in a room wrong" meaning that you get yelled at for no reason at all. I could hardly take that, and here you have lived with it all your life.

I would be so worried that if things were smoothed over now--he might pull the plug at any time before the wedding and that would be harder to deal with when there is no time to make other arrangements. BUT--this wedding will be done somehow--(I like the idea of the free wedding and then reception afterwards)-- and when it is over you will have the opportunity to walk away from that life and start a new one with your husband. I wouldn''t worry about raising your children the same way--I think it would make you more sensitive to the issue. However--you mihgt need to retrain the way you deal with conflict--I know my DH and I had to work out how we communicated when we had disagreements. (I wanted to fight--he wanted to communicate--what a dear man to teach me that! I was ready to put my dukes up (figuritively) and He kept saying-We are on the same side--I am for YOU)

Moving far away would help! I always told people how well I got along with my husbands family and someone pointed out that they were thousands of miles away. LOL

I guess I am giving you the old "This too shall pass" advice which has gotten me through a lot of things in life. And you are so going to be outta there!

 

[akw94]

Robbie,
I''m so sorry you''re going through this!
I won''t offer any advice other than to agree that it might be best to pay for the wedding yourselves and just dramatically scale it down. I made the decision to do that early on and I know that it helped incredibly in keeping things relatively stress-free. Yes, I''m working with a very, very small budget but I''m also very happy how things are turning out. You may have to cut back the guest list or change the venue but it might end up being worth it.

I hope things work out in whatever way you feel best!

Take care!!

 

[risingsun]

Robbie,
I agree with Happy Anniversary. Even if things can be smoothed over for the present, they could explode again anytime before or during your wedding. Plan your wedding without your parent''s assistance, or presence, if it comes to that. This type of emotional blackmail by your father is unacceptable and is emotional abuse. You deserve to enjoy your wedding without all of this family discord causing such distress.

 

[Cehrabehra]

Date: 6/23/2007 11:36:13 AM
Author: rainbowtrout
Ugh. If it were me:

Call off the big wedding. Scale it back, pay for what you can, invite your parents (in later years you WILL have wanted them there) and invite whoever else you damn well want to. Even have it on the same date you were going to originally so people aren''t inconvenienced.

Like it or not, money=power. So take it back and just do it yourselves.


My biggest rxn to the emails is that your father is butting in on things that AREN''T HIS BUSINESS, money or no money.

I ditto this but I would point out that it IS just your wedding, um hello!!??

 

[IrishAngel7982]

Robbie, I''m so sorry you''re dealing with this difficult situation. I''m not sure I have any advice on how to proceed with the wedding, but I wanted to remind you that although both sides are acting a immaturely here, your father''s outbursts are about him and his issues...not you. It is very hard to do, but you have to remember to not pick up the other end of the rope when these situations occur. I''m sure you realize that when you get into fights, the screaming, slamming the phone down, and slamming doors adds fuel to the fire and perpetuates the cycle. Don''t react to it. Leave your dad with his end of the rope. If you don''t fight back he won''t necessarily stop right away, but he''ll realize that it won''t be worth it in the end. It''s so hard, but it works.
I had a thought...in his email when he mentioned your drug problem, are you sure he was referring to the marijuana? Is it possible he was referring to the fact that you were prescribed antidepressants? You mentioned he has a strong aversion to medication and tried to talk you out of it, so maybe he was referring to that. Not that it would make a big difference, but it was just a thought.
Take a few days and cool down, and when you''re calm and collected you can sit down with your FI and evaluate your plan of action. The free DW included in your honeymoon sounds like a great plan. There''s nothing wrong with a backyard bbq. There''s also nothing wrong with eloping in St. Lucia, staying for your honeymoon, and having a celebration or 1st anniversary reception...on your terms, on your dollar...when you''re ready.
I really hope things get better for you. Just remember that you''ll never be able to change anyone else, especially someone who''s so adamant not to change, but you can change yourself and how you react to these situations. Good luck sweetie!

 

[Cehrabehra]

Date: 6/23/2007 10:18:03 PM
Author: robbie3982
My dad is definitely unbalanced. I''m pretty sure that he''s bi-polar. He has manic and depressive phases and it''s usually during a depressive phase that he has outbursts like this. Perhaps it makes me a bad person knowing that he has this disorder (or something like it) and that I still want to discontinue contact, but I feel like if he won''t get help for it, then I need to remove myself from the situation.

You sound like you''re a lot like your dad in one crucial way here... and I''m not talking about suspected dx''s or being unbalanced etc. I don''t know him so I won''t even speculate on that.... the one way that I''m thinking is this all or nothing way of looking at things.

I don''t put up with being treated like poop, even from my parents. And I remember feeling like you describe, just ready to throw in the towel because I didn''t want to deal with the negative crap from them. Ultimately though, I''ve learned I can walk away from situations without walking away from people. I can greet each situation with a fresh start. I didn''t speak to my father for over a year over a fight over how far back the seat in the car was on the way back from grand canyon LOL It seems petty, but really it was me being 19 and not wanting to be treated disrespectfully like a child. I dug my feet in, he dug his feet in and voila!

Mara is right. Alj is right. I wouldn''t sell my soul to maintain a relationship with my parents though... but it is worth examining your own role and what YOU can do to change the dynamic.

 

[Gypsy]

Date: 6/24/2007 2:55:32 AM
Author: Cehrabehra

Date: 6/23/2007 11:36:13 AM
Author: rainbowtrout
Ugh. If it were me:

Call off the big wedding. Scale it back, pay for what you can, invite your parents (in later years you WILL have wanted them there) and invite whoever else you damn well want to. Even have it on the same date you were going to originally so people aren''t inconvenienced.

Like it or not, money=power. So take it back and just do it yourselves.


My biggest rxn to the emails is that your father is butting in on things that AREN''T HIS BUSINESS, money or no money.

I ditto this but I would point out that it IS just your wedding, um hello!!??

Double ditto. Just do it yourselves hon. You''ll be so much happier.

 

[cara]

So sorry that your wedding celebration has cause this much pain. It really should be a celebration of your and your FI but it has involved some painful interactions with apron strings. Couple of points:

Since you already have a therapist, maybe asking for specific help interacting with your parents is a good idea. They often have certain scripts and techniques that they advise for dealing with emotionally abusive, toxic parents.

Second, instead of trying to cut off people entirely (which may be warranted but in practice often doesn''t work) sometimes the advice is to step back in your interactions with them. Still causing you anguish after pulling back somewhat? Take another step back. And another. Until your interaction with them is at a frequency and level that is not causing you harm. In addition, hopefully therapy can provide some advice on how to have interactions that are less disasterous.

Next, there is the question of the wedding going forward. Anything you and your FI plan and finance without your parent''s assistance is a better plan. I would sit down with your FI and have a really serious conversation about your interactions with your father over the course of your life and explain that you don''t think it is healthy or beneficial to your marriage to go forward with the parent financed wedding. Waiting a few days for things to cool off before pulling out is fine, but you really need to look at this is the context of your interactions with your father over your life and not this last battle.

My last question for you is to think about why you went into this wedding planning boondoogle with your parents in the first place. If memory serves, there were signs this was a really bad idea in your previous posts, and if not in your posts, then at least in your head. You have had a rocky relationship with a manipulative, emotionally abusive father for most of your life. He threatened to stop financing your college multiple times when you didn''t please him, why wouldn''t he pull the same behavior for your wedding? Why would you put yourself in the firing line by agreeing to have him finance and plan your wedding? There are two obvious answers: (1) you wanted a nicer wedding than you could afford (and thus should have been walking on eggshells the entire planning process to avoid blowups) (2) you engaged in some "magical thinking" that everything would be OK and your father would be a normal human even though his history does not support this. Even if (1) played a role, I think a large dose of (2) had to be involved as, on some level, you had to know your father would play true to form.

 

[jas]

Robbie I have little to add other than my support, prayers for you and your family, and hopes that it won''t be long before you feel "sunny" again about everything.

Great advice I got once is to look at a situation and ask which parts of this will matter 1 day from now? 1 year from now? 10 years from now? and tackle those issues only. The rest is minutia.

I think severing ties with family is not the option you have to take (IMO)...I do agree with Mara on many things she said, with the understanding that we don''t know the intimate dynamics of your family.

The DW sounds like a great option, as does the BBQ.

Sorry this is so glib, I really do hear your pain and want the best for you.

HUGS

 

[Mara]

robbie, thanks for clarifying things a little more in your posts.

with all of that said, i still think that family is family if you love them...and even though your upbringing may have been challenging, they quite obviously love you. we may not always agree with what our parents do, and it's more than okay to tell them that, but i think many times it is hard to see the forest through the trees for lack of a better saying. no one's family members are perfect and sure many of us have one or two we'd much rather never admit we were related to much less have to see at the dinner table on a weekly or monthly basis...but unfortunately that IS what family is. i think many times they are there to make us stronger and into better people than we might have otherwise become.

of course it's totally your life, your family and your call, but regardless of everything else that is going on or what you are sure your father was implying...please reconsider the whole 'i don't want to talk to my father again' thing...seriously i think you will really regret that later on. you will only have one wedding (hopefully) and while emotions are high right now, you both will regret not having your father there later. you can never take that back...it will color your relationship (which already sounds strained) forever.

i know you are young and in the thick of the heat of emotion etc etc but i just have to say that i view things so much differently now than when i was younger in terms of what is expendable vs what is not, and family who cares about me and i care about in return is not expendable. the relationships may take some serious work or understanding or love, and to what level you choose to participate is your call of course, but i would try to get past the wedding emotions for now without any lasting permanent repurcussions, and then re-evaluate things later.

i do agree though with pulling out of all of this and just getting married with what you can afford...it is the path of least resistance right now and then they cannot be construed as holding things above your head. it really is about you two getting married and not anything else in the end. good luck.

 

[Skippy123]

Date: 6/23/2007 7:56:43 PM
Author: monarch64
Aw, Robbie, sorry to hear your family and you are having sort of a blowup. I hope you don''t cancel your wedding over this. I really don''t have advice for you but I hope things get smoothed out and you can move forward with everything as planned.

me too and lots of prayers for ya.

 

[Mandarine]

Sorry to hear this Robbie...

I have to agree with Mara though.

Family is family...and although we don''t always agree with them, we have to step back sometimes and think "is it really worth it to scar this relationship for this?".

I would definitely call off the big wedding...have a smaller gathering with what you can afford, and do things your way!.

I would have a heart to heart with everyone (separately) and try to work things out. Sometimes people say things they don''t mean. It taked a hum to err, but a wise person to accept it and forgive and ask for forgiveness. This is what makes us stronger individuals.

I''m 30 now and I although I''ve always appreciated family, the older I get the more I appreciate them. When I was like 10, my dad said something to me that just stuck on my mind forever. He said something like "don''t bring flowers to my grave, bring them to me in life when I can smell them and appreciate them.

Life is too short and we should really be living every day like it''s the last day we have. This means showing people that you love them, being able to forgive (to truly forgive someone), to not sweat the small stuff because it''s really not worth it, to be humble and be able to ask for forgiveness when we''ve hurt someone.

You need to step back and let some of the nager go...and then sit down and think (or write) what you want...what is truly important to you now and in the future (as far as your relationship with your family is concerned)...and act according to what your heart tells you, when you take the anger away.

People make mistakes, we all do...he may not see what he did wrong right now. But you can be the stronger person and kill them with kindness!.

Sorry if this didn''t make much sense...it just breaks my heart when I see things like this and then to have others around that only wish they had their parents with them.

I hope you can work it all out!. Hugs,

M~

 

[oshinbreez]

Mara said it all. Seriously think about what she said. When you have kids, would you want them to grow up not knowing their grandparents? My kids didn''t know their dad''s parents, and it is something that has always bothered them. Please show your parents that you''re an adult by acting like one.

 

[surfgirl]

Robbie, thank you for the detailed post today, it helps us better understand the details on your side of this situation.

As for you, I'm so glad to hear you've sought counseling. I'm assuming your parents are a frequent topic of discussion in sessions so this would be a great time to figure out where to go from here, with regards to your relationship with them. I suppose if you end up living far away from them, it eases the issue as you dont have to deal with it often. But YOU should figure out what you want and how to achieve that, as far as what sort of relationship you want to have with them. Personally, I'm not in the "family is family" camp at all! Abusive relationships are unacceptable no matter who the perpetrator is. That said, now that I get that you have a disabled sister, I'm wondering if that is where much of your father's frustration comes from? I want to propose something that might not come out quite the way I mean it to in a forum posting, so keeping that in mind, here goes...I know some people say their disabled child is "a gift", etc, but I think it's got to be incredibly difficult to have such a child. If I was the parent of such a child I totally could see myself wondering what I did to deserve this? Why me? What did I do wrong that caused this? Etc. Could your father be feeling like his 'normal' daughter is abandoning him and leaving him with the child he will have to take care of forever? Please dont take offense as I dont mean this in a horrible way, I'm just thinking aloud to you about what might be at the root of all of this(I hope this is a safe enough place to say this, if not I apologize in advance). I dont know if you only have one sister or other siblings but if it's just the two of you, perhaps your father has some serious issues with his disabled child that he's never dealt with? When I read that you had a disabled sister that is always in the care/company of your mother I thought right away, "Oh man, that's gotta be a difficult situation!" Just something to consider, not that it makes right, your father's abusive behavior towards you. Just another angle from which to look at the situation objectively.

As for your parentally-financed wedding, I have to agree with those who said that if your FI hates your father, and you have serious issues with him as well, then you both have no business having him pay for your wedding regardless of what happens in your family situation. Period. End of story. The decision is already made in that case, isn't it? I do not think you should sit around waiting a few more days/weeks because your parents seem like the sort that could easily just go ahead and send out the invitations without you even knowing about it and act as if all is fine. Is that a fair statement? If so, you and your FI need to make YOUR decision - as a couple - NOW. And let everyone know about it as soon as possible so your parents and FI's parents can re-coup as much as they can from the vendors they've already paid. That is the adult, responsible thing to do, IMO. I would also consider telling your parents this decision together - as a couple. I dont know what others here will think of that but I'm wondering if your parents get out of control when your FI is around...do they? If not, I think that would be a safer way to exit the situation. Let your FI stand WITH you, as a couple. It defines you in your parents eyes and a couple who makes decisions together and that seems like it would be a good thing for them to start getting right about now.

Regarding a wedding that you two finance yourselves, if your parents return money to your FI's parents and they want to still contribute, fine. If you can afford a scaled back wedding, terrific. But the fact that you have a free wedding waiting for you at your honeymoon destination sounds pretty perfect! You mention your FI wants his parents there. Perhaps with the money your parents return to them, they could indeed afford to join you at your DW? Just a thought...In any case, I think you need to make a decision to do your own wedding. And I want to take back my comment about your dress. It's not the most important thing at all, I was just thinking aloud when I wrote that. You can have a lovely beach wedding at your resort, in a flowy beachy gown and be just as happy! Happier probably, because you wont be wondering if there will be an outburst or not during your wedding. But what I would suggest, is that you and your counselor talk about whether or not you'd regret not having your father/parents there at your wedding. You have to be okay in your decision on that BEFORE you get married. No regrets, etc.

Eloping can be incredibly romantic! And a backyard BBQ when you get back for your friends/family would be a lovely way to celebrate with them, and share with them your memories of your elopement!

ETA: Although I do not think abusive people should be left alone with your children in the future (grandparents), I wanted to share with you that although my parents are pretty weird in many ways, they are very excellent grandparents to my siblings kids. It baffles me no end but it IS possible for people to be bad parents but great grandparents...

 

[enbcfsobe]

style="WIDTH: 96.58%; HEIGHT: 128px">Date: 6/24/2007 3:06:29 PM
Author: surfgirl
...

ETA: Although I do not think abusive people should be left alone with your children in the future (grandparents), I wanted to share with you that although my parents are pretty weird in many ways, they are very excellent grandparents to my siblings kids. It baffles me no end but it IS possible for people to be bad parents but great grandparents...

I second this. I appreciate so much that my mother figured out how to set boundaries on her relationship with her parents in a way that I could still have a relationship with them. While her father was sucky as a parent, he was a very good grandfather. I think that sometimes my mom felt that this transformation was somewhat unfair to her, but I really am grateful that she didn''t let that prevent me from having a relationship with her parents. They cared for me as a small child while my mother was still working, and could not have been more gentle, loving, and supportive both then and throughout my life. It was important that when I was old enough to understand that my mom explained to me about her relationship with her father, but did not judge his relationship with his grandchildren.

 

[glitterkitty]

Robbie,

This is obviously an unpleasant situation, and from what you''ve said it isn''t that unusual in your relationship with your parents - and your father in particular. It seems that this is the time in your life you have to make a choice between continuing to be the child in this relationship, or becoming the adult and accepting the consequences that may/will come with that choice.

Unlike some other posters, I''m not going to go down the ''family is family'' route. There are many, many parents in this world who should never ever have become parents. they don''t have the emotional maturity to deal with it, and they have often not had to grow up themselves and take responsibility for their actions. I know this because I am the child of two such people.

It is now up to you, with the support of you FI to make a decision that may affect you for many years. You don''t have to accept the treament you are getting from your father - but equally you have to show a maturity that at, at the moment, you aren''t showing (sorry if i offend you). Your wedding is the start of your future life with your FI, a life that will see him become centre stage in your life. no longer will things just be about you - they will concern both of you, have implications for two people rather than just one. You will become a wife first and foremost and a daughter second. Perhaps the loss of control your parents are facing is part of the reason for this over reaction.

Faced with parents like mine (very similar to yours) we opted to organise and pay for our wedding ourselves. The first time my mother saw me in my dress was when i arrived for the ceremony. my father arrived to take me 10 mins before we were due to set off. We invited who WE wanted, ate what WE wanted and left the reception when WE wanted. it was our day, the start of our life together and in organising/paying for it, we emphasised that point - well, rammed it home actually!

If you want to continue to lead you adult life in this emotionally charged/explosive way - carry on as you are IMHO. Only YOU can change things - thats what being a grown up is all about. Continue to shout, scream and engage in highly damaging interaction and you''re simply reinforcing with your parents that they are right about you.

I would arrange a wedding suitable for a budget you two can afford, than meet with your parents on neutral ground and explain in a calm and rational way that although you are greatful to them for offering to throw you a wedding, your FI and you feel that you would like to take responsibility for your wedding and invite them to the new venue. Also offer to pay back any expenses that are non refundable. Then tell them you''re sorry, but you have to meet with x regarding y, and that you look forward to speaking to them later in the week. Then RUN!

Hard, harsh - but do you want to still be facing this in 5 years, 10 years etc etc

 

[fabcrab]

Robbie,

Big HUGS to you. I am so sorry you are going through such a hellish time

. I too don''t have anything else to add. I wish you the very best.

 

[fisherofmengirly]

This is exactly why so many people have weddings within *their* means, rather than their parents'' means.

Good luck with everything.

 

[Pandora II]

You need to think very carefully what steps you take at this point to be sure that you don''t cut off your nose to spite your face.

When I was 19 I had a very similar sounding relationship with my parents. I ran away from home (okay legally I was an adult, but in my family dynamic I was very much regarded as a young child.) I told them I was going and my fathers final words were:

"You won''t last two weeks without my money, you''ll be back begging on your knees for me to let you come home and to sort out your life for you."

I told him to watch me. I went home 3 years later with money in the bank and a place at university because they asked me to come home and it was on my terms. My life was my life and my mistakes were my own to make.

Since then it hasn''t all been easy and I spent most of my time in therapy dealing with my relationship with my father. He was a very strict man with very high expectations that I never quite achieved. In return I spent all my life craving his approval and wanting to make him proud - which I never got.

Since I have learnt to see him as a fallible human being and not my father, we have a truly amazing relationship and he is one of my best friends. Yes he still pulls out the hurtful comments, but I have learnt to let them wash over me. I know I can never show any weakness in front of him or he will use it against me - but I now see this as a sadness for him.

I have also made it clear that money he spent on my education etc etc and that he spends on my wedding is his free choice and therefore is not something to be thrown in my face.

At 19 if I had never seen my father again it would have been too soon. Now I value the time I spend with him.

It really sounds to me like a similar thing going on with you and your father and I would hate you to look back in later life and regret not having your parents there. You will probably find that your father loves you very much underneath and finds it very hard to let go of you and have you make your own decisions.

You do need to learn to break away from the current relationship dynamics and forge new ones. It isn''t easy but it is possible - and you can do it on your own.

 

[rainwood]

Robbie -

First, I wanted to say I''m so sorry you''re having to go through this, particularly at a time that should be joyful and fun. Second, I wanted to commend you for your follow-up post, which was thoughtful and mature and gave us a much clearer picture of your family dynamic. And though I rarely post, I''ve read everyone''s responses and just wanted to add the perspective of someone who''s closer to your parents''s age than yours (maybe even older) and is used to dealing with problems (I''m a lawyer by profession).

I''m going to assume that you are correct and that your father is suffering from some sort of mental illness, possibly bi-polar disorder, and that one of the symptoms of his disease is that he is emotionally abusive to you (I can''t tell if he''s emotionally abusive with others so make no assumptions there). I''m also going to assume that you are correct and that he is unwilling to seek treatment and that even if he were, there isn''t enough time before your wedding for treatment to deal with the symptoms of his disease.

If your father is mentally ill and emotionally abusive, the "family is family" approach seems wrong to me, the same way it would be if your father were physically abusive. Words may not physically injure or kill, but they can do plenty of damage. What does make sense to me was jas''s advice that you need to find a healthy mental place for you in all this and that may mean taking one or more steps back. Only you and your FI (and your therapist) can decide whether you need to take those steps and how many steps that should be.

Having a wedding that minimizes the havoc your father could cause may be the way to do that. The first question you''d have to answer is whether you want your father to come. I can''t answer that for you and neither can anyone else here. A lot of people have said that you''ll regret it if he doesn''t come. Only you know if that would be true. It may not be for you. And don''t feel guilty if the answer is you truly don''t want him to come. Sommetimes, people haven''t earned the right to be there at the happy moments in our life.

Other questions include: Would you like to have your mom there regardless of whether your father comes? Would you like to have your sister there regardless of whether your father comes? If the answer is yes, then you need to figure out if they would/could come if your father didn''t. If they couldn''t/wouldn''t, then maybe your father has to be there in some capacity. The DW at Sandals (although free) might not be the route to go if you want some of your family there. And if you''d like your FI''s parents there and it sounds like you both would, it seems unfair to punish them by having a DW if they couldn''t/wouldn''t come. Maybe the backyard BBQ then becomes the right way to go.

And there is no law that says you have to have your father walk you up the aisle (I didn''t - my FI and I walked in together which I liked for philosophical reasons). Or get married someplace where there isn''t an aisle so it isn''t an issue. And there''s no law about a father-daughter dance. There doesn''t even have to be dancing. There are lots of ways to get married. What matters is that your wedding ceremony is meaningful to you, including the people who witness it, and the rest really doesn''t matter. That includes the dress, the chair covers, the invitations, all of it. If it isn''t the wedding you''d originally envisioned or planned, that''s okay. What you want and deserve is a joyous way to start your married life. And with help from your FI - who sounds like a wonderful man by the way - and your therapist, I''m confident you''ll find a way do that. Good luck.