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Buddaham

Rough_Rock
Joined
Feb 15, 2001
Messages
19
Hi,I just recently purchased a stone from Blue Nile after looking into buying a stone for about 4 weeks. After going to five local jewelry stores I decided that I would buy on the internet. I was very disapointed that I could not find a jeweler I felt I could trust. Unfortunately, I did not find this site, and a few other good ones, until after I bought the stone. I have only had the stone for a week and when i got it I thought it was beautiful. I am a little concerned mainly with the cut after a lot of the messages I have read on this site. I would appreciate any input, here are the details of the stone:
weight: .90
shape: round brilliant
measurements:6.28-6.33 X3.72mm
Depth: 59.0%
Table: 61%
Girdle: thin to slightly thick,faceted
culet: none
polich: very good
Symmetry: very good
color: H
Clarity: sI2
Florence: none
Cert: Gia
$$: 3400.00I am also having a very had time finding an independant appraiser. I live in Salisbury, MA about 45 minutes north of Boston.thanks!!
 

Buddaham

Rough_Rock
Joined
Feb 15, 2001
Messages
19
Hi Leonid,I tried to enter some info into the cut advisor and had the same problem some others have. It states I am already registered. Can you help or provide any info on the cut for following:color: G
Clarity: SI1
table: 55.8%
Depts: 60.5%
Crown: gave 31.7 and 13.3*
Pavilion: gave 41.2 and 43.3%
Culet: none
weight: .83
polish: vg
symmetry: vgThanks,
Brenda
 

Buddaham

Rough_Rock
Joined
Feb 15, 2001
Messages
19
HI Leonid,Quick question. I have made an appointment with Martin Haske. However, I was with a friend this weekend who has a "jeweler/appraiser friend" This person looked at my ring and said that they would grade as an SI3 because it had an open "pk" in the table and that SI2's can have an open "pk" but not in the table. He said the person at GIA shouldn't have graded it as SI2. I knew when I bought the stone that the inclusion was in the table. I didn't know if that was a good thing or not?? I can see the inclusion (in certain lights and shadows) and am trying to decide if I can live with it. I understand that he is not an independatn appraiser who is interested in making money. I was wondering if anyone had ever heard of that.My other question is regarding certificates. When I purchased my stone, I think I was brainwashed that GIA was the way to go. He is trying to tell me the same quality stone with "supposedly" alot better cut but with EGL cert. When I compare prices on the net, EGL cert prices are approx $1500-$1700 less for a stone comparable to mine? But he doesn't agree.thanks,
Brenda
 

Buddaham

Rough_Rock
Joined
Feb 15, 2001
Messages
19
oops forgot to mention. This Jeweler said he was speaking with Michael Remmick re the open "pk" in table. He said Michael Remmick was well known in the industry. Can anyone confirm this?thanks,
Brenda
 

Buddaham

Rough_Rock
Joined
Feb 15, 2001
Messages
19
You are very dedicated!!! I truly appreciate that. I am going to try to reach the gentlemen in Brookline today and see if I can arrange for an appraisal. I will also mention the info you just provided. I will let you know the outcome.Thank you very much!!
Brenda
 

pricescope

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Dec 31, 1999
Messages
8,266
Brenda,It looks like a really good find. Here it goes:Selected: 60.5% depth, 56% table, 31.7° crown angle, 41.2° pavilion angle

Brilliance Excellent
Fire Very Good
Scintillation Very Good
Spread Very Good
Total Visual Performance 1.9 - Excellent - within BIC range Despite that it is not in AGS-ideal range it should be very brilliant - within Holloway Brilliant Ideals. Could be very good value.Is it from Blue Nile too? Did you returned the first one?I'll try to fix the problem with the registration - check it again after a while.
 

pricescope

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Dec 31, 1999
Messages
8,266
Brenda hi,GIA considered in the industry as the most reliable grading organization while EGL reports considered more tolerant. You are right GIA 'certed' stones cost more than EGL.There is no SI3 grade in GIA grading system thus lower GIA grade should be I1. I’ve heard that GIA gives SI clarity grades sometimes when inclusion visible to the naked eye especially for the large stones.I don't know whether your diamond with inclusion under the table shouldn't be graded as SI2...I hope experts will share their insight on this problem too.Just in case, do you still have a time to return the diamond?
 

Buddaham

Rough_Rock
Joined
Feb 15, 2001
Messages
19
Yes Leonid,This stone is with Blue Nile. I haven't returned the stone I have, but have sent them an email this morning advising that I am thinking of it. I forgot to mention the price of the stone which was $3400. About the same I paid before but 1 grade better color and clarity, better cut and a little smaller. Blud Nile indicates that this is an "Ideal" cut? Would you agree with that? Blue Nile also indicates that the diamond is eye clean and that there is a feather, not visible to the unaided eye, in a facet near the girlde. I think this is a lot better than the one located right on the table of my stone. I don't know if you saw my post yesterday regarding Michael Remmick. Have you ever heard of this name in the jewelry industry? The jeweler that I saw this weekend was throwing his name around saying he was very well known in the industry and this is who indicated to him that you cannot have an open "pk" in the table for SI2.Thanks,
Brenda
 

Buddaham

Rough_Rock
Joined
Feb 15, 2001
Messages
19
Hi Leonid,Yes, I do have time to return the stone. I received it from Blue Nile on 2/11. So I have less than two weeks. Which should be plenty of time. As I mentioned, I think I am more concerned with the fact that I can see the inclusion. Also maybe concered where it is so close to the table if it may get larger or crack? I know one thing for sure, if I do decide to return this diamond, I will be lining up someone to appraise it in advance. In regards to the certificate, so it would be safe to say to by a similar stone of mine but with an egl cert for the same money would not be a very competetive price?Thanks,
Brenda
 

Buddaham

Rough_Rock
Joined
Feb 15, 2001
Messages
19
Leonid,Yes, a little dissapointed . Would it make sense to have the diamond removed from the setting?? Or is this not as easy as it seems? I did call BN to see if they had Sarin results on the stone I purchased. I was very surprised that they did not mention the Sarin analysis to me when i purchased the stone. I must admit I am very happy with the stone and only became concerned when I stumbled across this site and saw all the info re cut. When I purchased the stone, I was going by the info that all sites list regarding depth and table. BN stated the stone was very close to very good cut and that was why it was such a great purchase. Thanks,
Brenda
 

Buddaham

Rough_Rock
Joined
Feb 15, 2001
Messages
19
Leonid,Thanks for the info. I do love the diamond, I guess I am just being overly concerned. I know one thing for sure!!! If I ever know anyone looking to buy a diamond, I will definately point them in this direction. Sometimes no matter how much research you do, it seems it isn't enough. I wish I had known someone to go to for help. Now I can provide that help to friends and family in the future. Thanks again!
Brenda
 

pricescope

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Dec 31, 1999
Messages
8,266
[FONT=Verdana,]quote:[/FONT]
Originally posted by Buddaham:In regards to the certificate, so it would be safe to say to by a similar stone of mine but with an egl cert for the same money would not be a very competetive price?
I think that is correct. When buying a diamond with EGL report you have higher risk to get it overgraded. You need to be more careful and checking the stone with the knowledgeable expert should be the must.If the report is correct, then you can save a few hundreeds. If not - you'll loose your time again...
 

pricescope

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Dec 31, 1999
Messages
8,266
No, I've never heard of Michael Remmick but it doesn't mean anything
I also made a search in the web for this name and didn't find anything related to diamond.I guess Blue Nile rep meant ideal based on table and total depth only, which is wrong. See for example www.pricescope.com/tutor_60.asp. AGS and AGA systems take crown and pavilion angles into account. Because of shallow crown this stone belongs to AGS-3. Nevertheless, shallow crown for this diamond is compensated by a bit deep pavilion that should produce nice result.If you'll get this stone let us know how it looks like.
 

Buddaham

Rough_Rock
Joined
Feb 15, 2001
Messages
19
Leonid,Thanks for the info. When I received the stone, I brought it to a jeweler who was going to appraise and set the stone. I was not happy with the "type" of appraisal they were going to do so I didn't have them appraise it but they did set it. I wasn't aware of how difficult this whole process would be!!! Now that the stone is set will it be difficult to get a Sarin report or an analysis of the cut? I noticed on a post today that you were able to get some idea of the cut at a diamond cut website. Is there any way someone can check this for me based on the info I previously noted. Unfortunately the independant appraiser you referred me to is over an hour away which makes it very difficult for me. I am trying to locate someone closer.Thanks,Brenda
 

pricescope

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Dec 31, 1999
Messages
8,266
Hi Buddaham...Blue Nile not bad source at all - priceses are reasonable and 30 days money back period gives you time for evaluation.Try to contact Martin D. Haske, Adamas Gemological Laboratory, 77 Pond Ave, Suite C609, Brookline, MA 02445, (617) 232-5508,
E-Mail: [email protected], www.gis.net/~adamas. Martin is independent and very knowledgable appraiser.It would be great to get Sarin measurements for your diamond. This combination of the total depth and table size doesn't exclude nice cut but one have to know crown and pavilion angles from the Sarin report.Tell us how it'll turn out.Leonid
 

pricescope

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Dec 31, 1999
Messages
8,266
GIA doesn't show crown and pavilion angles in their reports. They also don't have cut grading system. So if one won't demand this information, seller would rather skip the question.AGS have their own cut grading system (see our tutorial) but it is too broad. Moreover, one can find beautiful diamonds outside of AGS-ideal for less. That was one of the reasons why we set up the HCA on this site - to help finding beautiful diamonds without paying premium for AGS-ideal.Since your diamond is not deep, there is a good chance that this is the case. Although we need to know crown and pavilion to say it for certain.I cannot tell you what to do - you know your situation better than anybody. Knowledgeable and independent appraiser could help you. You don't have to drive - just send it by insured post or FedEx (contact the appraiser beforehand of course).If you like the diamond you can just forget about all these stuff and enjoy it - there always will be another diamond that will be of better quality or size. There are no limits for excellence.
However there are people who won’t bear anything less than super ideal proportions, polish and symmetry...It is all very personal. You have to decide for yourself.
 

pricescope

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Dec 31, 1999
Messages
8,266
Brenda,I'm afraid Sarin measurements can be performed only on a loose stone.To evaluate the cut for round diamond one need to know crown and pavilion angles. Then you can use the Holloway Cut Adviser on this site, www.pricescope.com/cutadviser.asp. Well, I guess you are disappointed. It’s not the end of the world. You have a few options.1. If you like the diamond - keep it. Blue Nile is a reliable source with reasonable prices so you paid a fair price for this stone.2. If you are not happy with it, you can return it and continue the search. You won’t be the first one who did it. Btw, Blue Nile has Sarin machine in house and you can ask them to check your next candidate for crown and pavilion angles.
 

pricescope

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Dec 31, 1999
Messages
8,266
Buddaham, I just recieved a message from David Atlas, AGA, telling that while Sarin mesures only loose stones Ogi Megascope does have the capability to make measurements of mounted stones IF the girdle and culet can be see from the side view. This happens a lot in 4 prong settings. Also, he can measure the crown height if one can see the side of the diamond, pavilion depth if one can see the girdle/culet, etc. the old fashioned way, with a leveridge and eye loupe.So, Buddaham, you still have a way to analyse your diamond.
 

pricescope

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Dec 31, 1999
Messages
8,266
Brenda,Here is the result for this stone:Selected: 62.3% depth, 58% table, 33.9° crown angle, 44.2% pavilion, 0.5% culet

Factor Grade
Brilliance Fair
Fire Fair
Scintillation Fair
Spread Very GoodTotal Visual Performance 6.8 - Fair
Email me your username for HCA and I'll see what's the problem.
 

Buddaham

Rough_Rock
Joined
Feb 15, 2001
Messages
19
Hi Leonid,I am still having problems with the cut advisor. Can you check this stone for mediameter: 6.189 (6.16 - 6.22)
Total Depth: 62.3 (3.86mm)
Crown angle: 33.9 (33.5 - 34.3)
Crown height: 14.2 or 41.6
Pavilion depth: 44.2% (43.6-44.9)
culet: .5 very small
Table: 58.5
Girdle: 2.7 thin to thickThanks,
Brenda
 

Buddaham

Rough_Rock
Joined
Feb 15, 2001
Messages
19
thanks for the user id and password. I read on the internet that you should purchase a stone with a GIA cert that is dated 1 year or less? Unless, it has been in a vault? Do you agree with this and why?Thanks,
Brenda
 

Garry H (Cut Nut)

Super_Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Aug 15, 2000
Messages
15,412
I would not be so concerned about that.
Some people say the diamond may have been damaged because it may be second hand.
There are plenty of diamonds that have been worn for 100 years that look exctly the same now as then.
Just get an appraiser to check the stone and ensure it is the same stone as before.
Personally if you had an SI2 from GIA 10 years ago - it would possibly get a SI1 today -so dont get all worked up.
The 1.9 score stone sounds pretty good to me BrendaGarry H
 

Buddaham

Rough_Rock
Joined
Feb 15, 2001
Messages
19
Hi Leonid,I finally got my appraisal on Saturday. It was an excellent experience. I ended up going to Martoni Gem Lab in Peabody MA. Very well accredited, one to put on this site for sure! I mentioned this website to them and they hadn't heard of it. She said she was going to call a good friend of hers in the industry to see if he knew of the site...Marty Haskell is who she called...small world. Neither one of them knew of the site, but said they would be checking it out.
I saw my diamond under a microscope, and it looked great. Just the one natural inclusion. I got estimated measurments of the cut due to mounting. They are:Crown angle: 30
depth percentage: 45
Table 61
depth 59The cut advisor worked!(THANKS :)) I got a rating of 3.2 very good.
Brilliance:excellen
Fire: fair
scintillation: fair
spread: excellent.
When I bought the diamond at Blue Nile they sold it as a "good" cut on the line of very good" It is exactly what they said. I feel a lot more comfortable with the diamond now. I really don't think I am going to return it for the other one. It is hard to say without actually seeing the difference visually even though according to the cut advisor it is a better cut. What do you think about that?? I wanted to thank you for all your help. This is the best site going. I will recommend it to anyone who is interested in buying diamonds.Thanks,
Brenda
 

Buddaham

Rough_Rock
Joined
Feb 15, 2001
Messages
19
Garry,Thanks for the reply. The stone measurments that rated "excellent" (G, SI1) were one of a stone I was considering, "if" I returned the one I already bought from Blue Nile. I just posted some info that I received on my stone. I am happy with the results, it is what I was told I was getting. I am now only wondering if I would be happier with the other diamond. And what the "visual" difference would be between mine and the one I posted that had excellent rating. Thanks,
Brenda
 

Buddaham

Rough_Rock
Joined
Feb 15, 2001
Messages
19
Leonid,I am not really understanding what brilliance is compared to fire. I do see a lot of colors throughout my diamond, however, not necessarily in dim or low light. My complete ring was valued at approx $400 more than I paid. However, I don't know what they appraised the diamond at separately. So $$ wise I did ok. I am fairly certain I am going to be keeping my stone. :)
Brenda
 

pricescope

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Dec 31, 1999
Messages
8,266
Brenda, based on the crown angle your diamond belongs to AGS7. The shallow crown is partly compensated by deep pavilion so it should be quite brilliant but less fiery.Well, if you'd like to get similar carat, color and clarity and ideal proportions you'd have to pay some $1,000 more...So I guess this stone is quite ok for it's price.Glad you had good experience with your appriser.So are you going to keep it?leonid
 

pricescope

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Dec 31, 1999
Messages
8,266
Brenda,Brilliance is referred to the white light reflected by a stone. Dispersion or fire is an ability of a diamond to convert certain portion of the white light into the color ones.Some other proportions can cause more color light. Don't listen to us anymore - detailed analysis can spoil everything.Enjoy your diamond
L
 

Garry H (Cut Nut)

Super_Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Aug 15, 2000
Messages
15,412
Brenda sounds like you got a good learning excercise.
I am even more positive that your diamond is a good one, because it seems the gemmo did a visual proportion estimation.
One of my many yet to be published articles concerns the method GIA teach for visual estimation. It is flawed.
But the good news is with big tables and shallow crowns it tends to over estimate depth of pavilion. I just plugged in the numbers to DiamCalc, and Cut adviser - you probably have a stone at about 2.7, which scores better (and loooks btter) than most AGS 0's that cost about 25% more.
Glad you had a good time Brenda
garry
 

Buddaham

Rough_Rock
Joined
Feb 15, 2001
Messages
19
L & Garry,
Thank you both soooo much.I think the best thing overall is having/finding people you can trust and who are willing to educate you. This has become quite an intriguing subject matter to me. I can see myself becoming facinated with it!!Thanks again for all your help. I am certain that I will be keeping my diamond and feel confident that I did the right thing!!Brenda
 

pricescope

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Dec 31, 1999
Messages
8,266
Brenda you are welcome
I know how you feel but be careful – this stuff is very addictive. As more you know as more interesting it gets
 
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