Local Vs Internet (I''m SURE this is covered SOMEPLACE)

[Goddess]

Excuse me for butting in but I would like to add my two cents:


Arjunajane says of B&M businesses who care/maintain customers jewellery pieces:

"Yes, and they charge an arm and leg for that clean and polish !"

Arjunajane I am not targeting you personally but I have picked up on your comment as I know a lot of
consumers think this as well..............that jewellers are just out to make as much money as they can off
you.

Have you considered that for a jeweller to be ''standing by'' or ''on call'' so to speak sometimes 7 days a week
to wait just for you to decide to visit them is costing them money?
These jewellers have families to support like everyone else. They are often paid very low wages but will serve
you with a smile because of good old fashioned customer service.

What you are paying for is the convenience of an on call jeweller who is face to face and who is happy to
provide the appropriate services that you require on any given day.
Have you ever seen people standing in front of a jewellery store looking impatiently at their watches for the store
to open?
Proves my point.

The really smart jewellers will or have already marked up any mounts that they custom make for you to compensate
themselves for the fact that they did not sell that (internet) diamond to you.
Dont kid yourself it is already happening but you may not know it.
They do this to make up money ''lost'' to a faceless internet vendor and for the privilege of you the consumer to
wear the jewellers brandname.

By the way a high quality Tiffany style knockoff is just that, a knockoff, it will NEVER be a Tiffany.

I come across a lot of internet purchased settings and I would have to say that a large proportion, while
attractive at first glance really aren''t manufactured with a lot of care, some (not all obviously) are cast and
have ''hollowed out'' sections that cheapen the look and overall design.

If your purpose is to get a bargain then you will probably get one because the price is right.
But just dont winge to your local jeweller when your $400 internet setting melts when he/she is resizing it because
of the low quality manufacturing processes used by the internet vendor.

 

[arjunajane]

I am talking from my own personal experience in what it cost me the last time I paid for a rhodium plating and professional clean. After all, I can only call on my own experience, I don''t pretend to know everyone else''s.....

Goddess, there is so much misinformation in your post I don''t even know where to start - so I won''t !
I will say that you should refer to Strm''s post above - nobody, including "master craftsmen" jewellers (ahem), have earned my money and respect until they earn it. If they can''t do that, they also will not get my sympathies.

And to Diamond Explorer and Goddess, I would like to ask you disclose your motivations, as you are in a consumer - driven forum.
In my time here, the only shills as The Doctor refers to that I have come across, usually work in B&M stores..

peace

 

[Need Help123]

Preach on, Doctor. I couldn''t agree more. I get so tired of reading about how awful local B&M stores are that it nearly drives me from reading this site. I purchased my fiancee''s engagement ring from a local jeweler (not a mall store, but a local shop) who provided wonderful pricing and even better customer service. This particular jewelry store happens to also sell flowers. Last Christmas when my fiancee and I stopped in to have her ring cleaned before Christmas dinner, we were greeted by name with a warm smile and an offer for free flowers (''tis the season) just because. It''s that level of service that led us to purchase our wedding bands from this same store and where we will continue to buy jewelry.

There are other people out there who do quality work for a fair price besides Whiteflash, GOG and BN; reading this site may lead you to believe otherwise.

 

[stone-cold11]

.

 

[arjunajane]

Date: 10/31/2008 8:18:11 AM
Author: Need Help123
Preach on, Doctor. I couldn't agree more. I get so tired of reading about how awful local B&M stores are that it nearly drives me from reading this site. I purchased my fiancee's engagement ring from a local jeweler (not a mall store, but a local shop) who provided wonderful pricing and even better customer service. This particular jewelry store happens to also sell flowers. Last Christmas when my fiancee and I stopped in to have her ring cleaned before Christmas dinner, we were greeted by name with a warm smile and an offer for free flowers ('tis the season) just because. It's that level of service that led us to purchase our wedding bands from this same store and where we will continue to buy jewelry.

There are other people out there who do quality work for a fair price besides Whiteflash, GOG and BN; reading this site may lead you to believe otherwise.

Right, that level of service you only get from B&M's correct?
I am not going to disclose all the details, but my b'day was remembered with a gift of a lovely delivery of flowers by a "crummy service" internet vendor...and they weren't even trying to get a purchase out of me. It was "just because". Plus, I live in Australia. And they're in America.
I can see your B&M's tactic of "just because" worked, because you bought more stuff !

Geez, I'm so tired of these internet vendors treating me like crap with their impersonal service...

Re your highlighted, I will never understand these posts - if you don't like the tone of the threads here, nobody's forcing you to read!

 

[arjunajane]

To all these posters lamenting the lack of pro- B&M info on here, I say stop complaining and do something!
Yes, the majority of threads complimenting vendors are for the same ones over and over - so what, they've clearly earned it.
If you feel so strongly that your B&M is just as good, then post a review of your experience ! Get their name out there if they have done you well.

I see so many times a poster asking for "A great Jeweller in (insert city or state here)?"..But rarely does anyone reply!
This site is not anti-B&M. It is a consumer resource for finding reputable vendors (amongst other things).

I'll reiterate: please stop criticizing other posters favourites, and start contributing to the knowledge and resources instead.

 

[neatfreak]

Date: 10/31/2008 8:43:21 AM
Author: arjunajane
To all these posters lamenting the lack of pro- B&M info on here, I say stop complaining and do something!

Yes, the majority of threads complimenting vendors are for the same ones over and over - so what, they've clearly earned it.

If you feel so strongly that your B&M is just as good, then post a review of your experience ! Get their name out there if they have done you well.


I see so many times a poster asking for 'A great Jeweller in (insert city or state here)?'..But rarely does anyone reply!

This site is not anti-B&M. It is a consumer resource for finding reputable vendors (amongst other things).


Like I said, please stop criticizing other posters favourites, and start contributing to the knowledge and resources instead.

Agreed. What we are ALL here for is consumer education. We don't tell people to run away from B&M's if they are providing good service and good prices. But for all those bashing "internet" vendors, we get SO MANY people running to them from dishonest B&M vendors too. How many times a day do we hear about people getting screwed by local stores? Or getting misinformation? A lot.

Any vendor, whether a B&M or not, that treats me well and is honest will get my business. I could care less whether they are virtual or not.

And just to put some of the misinformation to rest, some of our most recommended vendors here have both an internet presence AND a B&M. And oh my gosh, we still recommend them!!!

And If you are a B&M vendor who wants to garner up business here, this isn't the way to do it.

 

[Ellen]

Date: 10/31/2008 1:06:37 AM
Author: TheDoctor

Issue here is you will all get the service you wish to pay for. The direction the trade is going in involves cheap labour and questionable quality in favour of fast delivery and quick product turnover.
If you vote for that with your dollars, then Keynsian economics will dictate the outcome.
This isn't about someone's success over someone else's.
Our company has few competitors, and we don't come to PS seeking business. I am very comfortable, thank you.
We come here to defend the B&M contingent who don't even know this forum exists. There are some hard working, knowlegeable, decent people out there, mostly whom are NOT IN MALLS and actually work with thier hands, versus traders who add no value to anything and treat customers like fish. You have to look a little beyond the shopping plaza to find the good service people.

I found these jewellery forums by total accident during a Google search about 6 years ago, and was horrified at how various B&M jewellers were being dragged through the mud by a cyber-gang of bullies fuelled by gawd knows what kind of inspiration. Lots of shills, it was quite disgusting.
I decided to participate because the world needs a variety of views. Surprised at how people got real quiet following my posts, I have pursued this line of questioning behaviour since that time.
I gain nothing of a personal or business advantage by being here. My contributions are a means of providing some balance. Such balance was necessary in this particular thread, and I apologize for taking it up in a confrontational fashion with one poster who ruffled my feathers. If some of you decide that my posts are inflammatory and wish to report them, I am quite prepared to accept a sound spanking from the moderators.

I must have missed that, and had I read it, I wouldn't have changed posting about my own personal experiences with B&M's. I tried to buy my upgrade locally. What I found/experienced was appalling. The lack of knowledge and/or deceit was quite evident in all. The last straw was after I finally purchased a ring, only to have the stone become very questionable. I promptly contacted the store and came back to return it, well within the time period. I was practically yelled at (in my face by one of the managers), and accused of "being up to something". By the time I got home, their return policy had been taken down from their website.

I would suggest not being so quick to condemn those who give some B&M"s a bad rap, they may very well deserve it. There are truly good jewelers out there, I'm certain there are, I just never found one. What I did find online was what every customer wants, and every jeweler should produce. Respect, knowledge, quality products they stand by, and decent pricing.

 

[hwkkix]

Being new to the forum as well as diamond purchasing I can say that this forum was invaluable to me. It educated me in ways that I had no idea were important. Prior to finding this forum I visited my local jeweler that not only do I trust but is mentioned in high regard in nearly every conversation I''ve had with respect to jewelery. THEY advised me to go look around before making my decision. I ultimately went with an on-line vendor as I did get more for my $. As a consumer, after quality this is a primary concern for me and I won''t appologzie for that.

I did bring the rings I purchased back to my local B&M and bashfully asked him to look them over for me. He first set me at ease and welcomed the chance to look them over. He then advised me that I had "hit a home run" with my purchase. Will I purchase from this B&M again as I have in the past? Without hesitation and for probably 90% of my jewelry needs. (Needs? Do I have jewelry needs?) His professionalism and understanding of my making this extra special purchase elsewhere has solidified my business with him going forward. There is no other B&M jeweler in town in my mind.


As I read Doctors posts I keep wondering about where the Doctor purchased his vehicle and then gets it serviced. Should an auto dealer not service a vehice they did not sell?

 

[arjunajane]

Date: 10/31/2008 8:46:29 AM
Author: neatfreak


Agreed. What we are ALL here for is consumer education. We don''t tell people to run away from B&M''s if they are providing good service and good prices. But for all those bashing ''internet'' vendors, we get SO MANY people running to them from dishonest B&M vendors too. How many times a day do we hear about people getting screwed by local stores? Or getting misinformation? A lot.

Any vendor, whether a B&M or not, that treats me well and is honest will get my business. I could care less whether they are virtual or not.

And just to put some of the misinformation to rest, some of our most recommended vendors here have both an internet presence AND a B&M. And oh my gosh, we still recommend them!!!

And If you are a B&M vendor who wants to garner up business here, this isn''t the way to do it.

Exactly ! GOG is a family run B&M with how many years of serving their community? Almost 20 is it? They have only moved into internet sales in recent years, if anyone cared to check their facts.
This is precisely what I mean by misinformed statements...

 

[arjunajane]

Date: 10/31/2008 9:14:11 AM
Author: hwkkix
Being new to the forum as well as diamond purchasing I can say that this forum was invaluable to me. It educated me in ways that I had no idea were important. Prior to finding this forum I visited my local jeweler that not only do I trust but is mentioned in high regard in nearly every conversation I've had with respect to jewelery. THEY advised me to go look around before making my decision. I ultimately went with an on-line vendor as I did get more for my $. As a consumer, after quality this is a primary concern for me and I won't appologzie for that.

I did bring the rings I purchased back to my local B&M and bashfully asked him to look them over for me. He first set me at ease and welcomed the chance to look them over. He then advised me that I had 'hit a home run' with my purchase. Will I purchase from this B&M again as I have in the past? Without hesitation and for probably 90% of my jewelry needs. (Needs? Do I have jewelry needs?) His professionalism and understanding of my making this extra special purchase elsewhere has solidified my business with him going forward. There is no other B&M jeweler in town in my mind.


As I read Doctors posts I keep wondering about where the Doctor purchased his vehicle and then gets it serviced. Should an auto dealer not service a vehice they did not sell?

Thankyou hwkixx for your reply. As you said, what your jeweller did was a smart move, and in this age of competitiveness with online vendors, this is the type of jeweller that will gain the trust and patronage of consumers.
Who will not? The ones that talk down to us, misrepresent their products, and tell us the old "all internet sellers are sheisters" line, ad nauseum..

I am sorry to say that my experience with B&M's has been just like Ellen's . And this was not for lack of trying to find a good one! When I finally found one that sold ideal cut stones and *ok" settings, he had the audacity to call me a liar after asking what I paid for my ring. Then told me it must be fracture filled for that price. He then ran me out of his store - I can only suppose the info on his competitors was too much to handle...
When I wrote an email of complaint about his behaviour, he then threatened to "dob me in" to the taxation office, also accusing me of importing goods without paying GST/duty (based on nothing but an assumption on his part).

Diamond Explorer, how do you suggest I should have "negotiated in a nice way" in this situation.? lol.

I may sound bitter - yes I am. I have done my due dilligence trying to support local jewellers, I would like nothing more than to have a professional and reasonably priced B&M to visit. So I do not appreciate when those who know nothing of my experiences imply I am being an PS-vebdor zombie.

 

[denverappraiser]

Date: 10/30/2008 9:08:49 PM
Author:Laxinthe303
My question is based on this presupposition:

There are no local vendors which can match blue nile's diamond prices, and likely cannot come within $500 of their price.

I think that most people would agree that, all things being equal they would prefer to buy from a local source. Unfortunately, all things are rarely equal. Each dealer brings different things to the table. It’s NOT just a rock. The deal includes education, paperwork, presentation, credibility, terms, packaging, access to designers, speed, charm, warranties and a whole litany of other things. Some dealers, both online and on the street, offer a lot of this and some offer almost none. Some customers value these things highly while others count them as irrelevant. It’s a big world and there’s room for lots of different approaches. There’s a reason that both Costco and Tiffany can exist in the same market selling some superficially similar things for different prices. Few people shop at Tif’s under the belief that it’s a cheap place to buy things and few people shop at Costco expecting a fabulous shopping experience. Neither is wrong.

B&M stores add value. Consumers get to decide if that value is worth what they cost. If not, they can go somewhere else and if enough move on, the jewelers will either change their business models or find other work. That’s the way the system works. When it becomes a problem is when the consumers want to use the jewelers for their ‘free’ services like inspections and looking at displays or getting educated by their staff while taking their paid business elsewhere. Although it’s often in your self-interest to do this, it’s no surprise that the jewelers are unhappy about it and it’s no surprise that the prices on those things are going up or simply disappearing.

Matching Blue Nile prices isn’t really all that hard and most jewelers can do it if they want. The problem is that most customers don’t want it. They want the jeweler to provide a convenient showroom, physical inventory that you can actually look at before you decide, staff time, education, tradein programs, financing, and all the other things they toss into the bundle that BN doesn’t include in their offer. They want the jeweler to set it, to romance it, and to provide them with the warm fuzzy relationship of shopping in person as well as a convenient place to go if there are any difficulties. ‘Taint the same thing and, yes, the deserve to be paid for this. The problem here doesn't seem to be that you don't put value on these things, you just don't like the price or perhaps just haven't found a jeweler with the right sorts of benefits for a price you can live with.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[tweak89]

I would have preferred to purchase locally, but many things factored in my purchasing all my ring components online and having a local jeweler do the mounting.

Price, of course, is the big reason. No local jeweler (even the huge high volume places) could come close to the online prices on my setting.

For me, in particular, my center stone of choice (white sapphire) was something most jewelers (big chains like Zale's, Kay etc) were unwilling to locate for me (don't get me started on the snobbery exhibited by most of these places when I told them I wanted a sapphire rather than a diamond center stone

) . The one that did at least try was still priced well above online prices.

I took the pieces to a local jeweler (a real local, not a chain: RV Jewelers in Pearland, Tx!!) and he happily mounted the stone in the setting, none of which he sold me. He did such a great job, he is custom making my wedding band. And, although he is a little higher in price, he treated me like a valued customer, rather than the next in line.

Neil,

Is there a certain way to approach a jeweler (talking big retailers) about matching online prices? Most of them gave me a litany of reasons why they couldn't (or wouldn't) match, or at least come close, to online prices. This was when I was looking into a diamond center stone.

 

[Sharon101]

Date: 10/31/2008 9:36:36 AM
Author: denverappraiser

Date: 10/30/2008 9:08:49 PM
Author:Laxinthe303
My question is based on this presupposition:

There are no local vendors which can match blue nile''s diamond prices, and likely cannot come within $500 of their price.

I think that most people would agree that, all things being equal they would prefer to buy from a local source. Unfortunately, all things are rarely equal. Each dealer brings different things to the table. It’s NOT just a rock. The deal includes education, paperwork, presentation, credibility, terms, packaging, access to designers, speed, charm, warranties and a whole litany of other things. Some dealers, both online and on the street, offer a lot of this and some offer almost none. Some customers value these things highly while others count them as irrelevant. It’s a big world and there’s room for lots of different approaches. There’s a reason that both Costco and Tiffany can exist in the same market selling some superficially similar things for different prices. Few people shop at Tif’s under the belief that it’s a cheap place to buy things and few people shop at Costco expecting a fabulous shopping experience. Neither is wrong.

B&M stores add value. Consumers get to decide if that value is worth what they cost. If not, they can go somewhere else and if enough move on, the jewelers will either change their business models or find other work. That’s the way the system works. When it becomes a problem is when the consumers want to use the jewelers for their ‘free’ services like inspections and looking at displays or getting educated by their staff while taking their paid business elsewhere. Although it’s often in your self-interest to do this, it’s no surprise that the jewelers are unhappy about it and it’s no surprise that the prices on those things are going up or simply disappearing.

Matching Blue Nile prices isn’t really all that hard and most jewelers can do it if they want. The problem is that most customers don’t want it. They want the jeweler to provide a convenient showroom, physical inventory that you can actually look at before you decide, staff time, education, tradein programs, financing, and all the other things they toss into the bundle that BN doesn’t include in their offer. They want the jeweler to set it, to romance it, and to provide them with the warm fuzzy relationship of shopping in person as well as a convenient place to go if there are any difficulties. ‘Taint the same thing and, yes, the deserve to be paid for this. The problem here doesn''t seem to be that you don''t put value on these things, you just don''t like the price or perhaps just haven''t found a jeweler with the right sorts of benefits for a price you can live with.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

As usual, you are such a voice of reason. You are unbelievably good at explaining complex issues in a simple easy to understand way. (Most people excell at doing the opposite!!!).

I can really understand the B&M perspective. Im the sort of person who NEVER likes to see a business empty & doing badly. It always makes me sad even when I dont know the business at all. I even hate getting quotes because I feel sorry for whoever I dont use.

I cant help wondering what everyone will do if there arent any B&M left to try on rings and have a play with what looks good irl.

However, I know that it`s hard to pay hundreds & or thousands more when there is a really easy way to buy over the net with great results. And I happily buy many things this way to save money.

Many B&M vendors that I talk to say that for them, there is no real money to be made selling diamonds and the money they make is mainly all in the setting. My B&M vendor didnt seem to care that I brought in my own diamond. Likewise, I didnt try to squeeze him on the setting price or source my own mellee diamonds.

For me personally, getting older (& perhaps more affluent than my poor younger self, or maybe just more understanding of the way the world runs).....well I just dont mind paying extra for good service. I want to be looked after and to have a personal connection, convenience, and I like feeling good with my transaction process.

Seems to me that there is room for both internet and B&M vendors, especially as they are both capible of offering great service to compliment each other.

 

[grapegravity]

Date: 10/31/2008 9:36:36 AM
Author: denverappraiser

Date: 10/30/2008 9:08:49 PM
Author:Laxinthe303
My question is based on this presupposition:

There are no local vendors which can match blue nile's diamond prices, and likely cannot come within $500 of their price.

I think that most people would agree that, all things being equal they would prefer to buy from a local source. Unfortunately, all things are rarely equal. Each dealer brings different things to the table. It’s NOT just a rock. The deal includes education, paperwork, presentation, credibility, terms, packaging, access to designers, speed, charm, warranties and a whole litany of other things. Some dealers, both online and on the street, offer a lot of this and some offer almost none. Some customers value these things highly while others count them as irrelevant. It’s a big world and there’s room for lots of different approaches. There’s a reason that both Costco and Tiffany can exist in the same market selling some superficially similar things for different prices. Few people shop at Tif’s under the belief that it’s a cheap place to buy things and few people shop at Costco expecting a fabulous shopping experience. Neither is wrong.

B&M stores add value. Consumers get to decide if that value is worth what they cost. If not, they can go somewhere else and if enough move on, the jewelers will either change their business models or find other work. That’s the way the system works. When it becomes a problem is when the consumers want to use the jewelers for their ‘free’ services like inspections and looking at displays or getting educated by their staff while taking their paid business elsewhere. Although it’s often in your self-interest to do this, it’s no surprise that the jewelers are unhappy about it and it’s no surprise that the prices on those things are going up or simply disappearing.

Matching Blue Nile prices isn’t really all that hard and most jewelers can do it if they want. The problem is that most customers don’t want it. They want the jeweler to provide a convenient showroom, physical inventory that you can actually look at before you decide, staff time, education, tradein programs, financing, and all the other things they toss into the bundle that BN doesn’t include in their offer. They want the jeweler to set it, to romance it, and to provide them with the warm fuzzy relationship of shopping in person as well as a convenient place to go if there are any difficulties. ‘Taint the same thing and, yes, the deserve to be paid for this. The problem here doesn't seem to be that you don't put value on these things, you just don't like the price or perhaps just haven't found a jeweler with the right sorts of benefits for a price you can live with.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

I totally agree with Neil on the highlighted part...
This is the reason why my fiance purchased my e-ring at B & M even though he could get it via internet $10000 cheaper.
Whenever I need to get my ring serviced there, it's free and unlimited (even rhodium plating and resizing) and it will be done within a day. They even rhodium plate and resize my WB (which was bought from another vendor) for free!!!

In addition, my SA said hi to us (by first and last name) when we saw her three years after the ring purchase. To me, that is impressive!!

Just my 2 cents

 

[denverappraiser]

Date: 10/31/2008 10:01:41 AM
Author: tweak89
Neil,

Is there a certain way to approach a jeweler (talking big retailers) about matching online prices? Most of them gave me a litany of reasons why they couldn''t (or wouldn''t) match, or at least come close, to online prices. This was when I was looking into a diamond center stone.

Sure, tell them the truth. That’s what you want them to do for you isn’t it? “I’ve been shopping here and I would really like to do business with you because of xxx but I’m really concerned about your prices (or whatever else it is that concerns you). I’ve found the following alternative offer somewhere else that I’m seriously considering buying instead. Are you able to lower your price in order to be more competitive?” Then show them what you’ve found, what it costs, who you’re getting it from and why you’re considering them.

They may or may not do what you want but they are sure to make a sales pitch about why it’s worth your trouble to buy from them or what it is about their offer that makes it better. Either way, listen politely to what they say and then decide if you like their deal better. Sometimes you will and sometimes you won’t. As mentioned above, perhaps the right deal will be to buy the stone elsewhere and buy the mounting and assembly labor from them or maybe there just isn’t a deal to be had. This is a very competitive business and more people won’t get your business than will. This is pretty much asking them to cut directly to the hard sell closing so you might want to avoid making a final decision right on the spot. The deal will usually still be there in a few hours or a few days while you think about it. If they say something that you don’t understand or that doesn’t make sense, ask about it. If you still don’t understand, come back here and ask the gurus. There’s a lot of collective wisdom available here for free.

The big stores, like Walmart or Macys, generally won’t make a deal while the 1 location places where you’re talking directly to the owner generally will do their best to salvage the sale if they can. The various chains fall somewhere in between. Ask. Personally I rather like the smaller chains and single location stores, in part for this reason. On the other hand there''s a certain comfort in shopping at places like Walmart or Blue Nile where the price is the price and you can take it or leave it.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Jewelry Appraisals in Denver

 

[risingsun]

Thank you, Neil, for expressing a balanced view of the situation.

 

[Laxinthe303]

Neil -

Thanks for your insight.

I don't want any of the things you are referring to.

I know exactly what stone I am after, I know the exact specs that I want on it, and I know exactly what I am willing to pay for it.

I don't need to see two stones, I don't need to be waited on by a woman in a short skirt, and I couldn't care less what the inside of my jewelry store looks like.

Because you are in Denver, as am I, will tell you that I have been to Trice, as well as the Shane company (Who i believe we are led to believe is local but it actually regional if not national) and their prices were THOUSANDS above internet retailers.

I am primarily looking for a diamond, and if it meant the difference of thousands of dollars am quite content just sitting the diamond on a round gold band.

I don't know how much some people make a year in here, but if the difference of TEN THOUSAND DOLLARS isn't a huge deal, do you have like some man-servant typing for you? I can see paying more for constructed goods (A car, home speakers, wine) - but Diamonds, whose value is dervied from their being a monopolized non-commodity, are still a value added item in which you are paying for something at the retail end in which the vendor had nothing to do with (Unless you are buying at a DeBeers store) - Cut, polish, and source.

So if you can recommend a vendor in the Denver area that does enough volume in just diamond trade that they are happy to get a sales as opposed to someplace in Cherry Creek who is going to feel (in the words of the Doctor) that I am interfering with their ability to feed their kids.

Furthermore, taxes are an issue. They don't go to the local jeweler, but they are an additional cost at $10,000 of almost $800 in Denver. If I am paying $2,000 more for a stone locally, that is a $2,800 difference. That could be the difference in .25 of a carat, or a color or clarity grade.

 

[denverappraiser]

I make a point not to recommend individual jewelers because I feel it’s a conflict of interest for an appraiser to be doing that but if you’re target is a lowest possible price on items for which you have no questions, I think you are best suited to the kind of vendor that doesn’t have a showroom, inventory or much in the way of employees. Few businesses that look like a jewelry store will be interested in the deal you’re proposing. Basically this leaves you with the Internet type dealers like the folks with such a strong presence here, small brokers who operate out of their homes or offices, or possibly the warehouse type sources like Costco or Sam’s Club.

By the way, Shane Co. actually is local although you’re right that they have stores in many other market and the use the same hometown style marketing in all of them. Tom really does live here.

It is entirely between you and the State of Colorado whether you pay your taxes or not but buying from an out-of-state supplier does not mean that you don’t owe them. It only means that you are expected to remit them yourself instead of the merchant doing it on your behalf. Here’s the instructions on how you are supposed to pay courtesy of the Colorado Department of Revenue.

http://www.revenue.state.co.us/PDF/dr0252.pdf

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[NeverEndingUpgrade]

Date: 10/30/2008 11:51:39 PM
Author: TheDoctor

Date: 10/30/2008 11:41:49 PM
Author: arjunajane

Date: 10/30/2008 11:30:48 PM
Author: TheDoctor
Hey, it''s your assessment that he doesn''t make much money off of you.You said it, I ran with it.
Most of the benchies make under 50 k a year. Many make half of that or less. I don''t know how you would appreciate your livlihood being undercut by a discount operation that offers commodities at an understood price but professional services that are not what is expected...

As tradesmen and women, we asked to put together components bought elsewhere for tens of thousands of dollars, items whose sales we depend on selling to feed our families, yet we kindly provide the service because we choose to. There is little or no profit. We can count on down the road sales if we are fools.

Been around long enough to see where things are going. I stand by what I have said.

And this is exactly the kind of attitude that causes ''where things are going'' - customers are tired of being treated like crap from ''The Local Jeweller'', who often carries inferior products, exaggerates diamond quality and talks down to customers.
We are now more educated and savvy, and therefore operations like yours feel threatened. I can tell you hardly anyone falls for the ''intenet vendors are scary and dodgy'' line - either keep up, or lose out.

Where things are going is as follows:
Vendors caution clients not to use ultrasonic cleaners.
Rhodium wears off, wears off again, platinum marrs and bends, stones loosen, prongs catch, jewellery owner cannot possibly have service done by original $10,000 vendor because she can''t wait that long..so she attends local jeweller.
Local jeweller says I made no profit, I am going to have to tell you that this mounting is a disaster, and that it will need to be rebuilt or replaced.
Client writes to Pricescope to tell everyone that local jeweller is an @sshole.

Doctor, you are so off-topic, it is ridiculous. Can''t take you seriously at all. Can you even remember what the OP''s question was? Probably not.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Date: 10/31/2008 11:56:04 AM
Author: grapegravity

I totally agree with Neil on the highlighted part...
This is the reason why my fiance purchased my e-ring at B & M even though he could get it via internet $10000 cheaper.
Whenever I need to get my ring serviced there, it''s free and unlimited (even rhodium plating and resizing) and it will be done within a day. They even rhodium plate and resize my WB (which was bought from another vendor) for free!!!

In addition, my SA said hi to us (by first and last name) when we saw her three years after the ring purchase. To me, that is impressive!!

Just my 2 cents

impressive ??? for $10K....
not only i''ll remember your names,but i''ll tatoo it on my chest

and gave you a manicure every time you come in the store.

 

[cocoa]

Laxinthe303: I just want to share my experience with you on buying loose stone online and setting the ring locally

We bought the loose diamond from Goodoldgold and happy with our purchase. Shop around and you''ll find that internet vendors provide more paperwork and better cut quality diamonds for a more affordable price. Most B&M stores do not provide deal scope, sarin, or brilliant scope... Personally, I feel that internet vendors who are willing to provide more test/paperwork on their stones, are the ones that strive to earn my business. I''m not blown away with just "talk". I''d like some proofs to show me that their stones are great. If you decide to buy online, be sure to buy from well trusted vendors and understand their return/upgrade policy as well as ask all questions. You''ll have to do your homework but if you want an ideal cut diamond (ie beautiful/fiery/sparkle diamonds), i think it''ll be worth it. I speak from experience that stone i bought from GOG is more beautiful than any stone I''ve seen locally (well except for the Heart of Fire, there''s something about their brand name that charming my heart, but it was way beyond my budget, hehehe)

About setting the diamond locally. Most chain stores will not do that if you''re not buying the center stone from them. ALL B&M stores are willing to sell just a setting, be it a designer setting or custom project, they were very nice and helpful. I haven''t been into any B&M store that refuse to sell just a setting, but custom work might be a bit more complicated. It requires more homework into the store experiences, communications, imagination, and time as well as trust in someone workmanship

Few things to note: . they will charge a fee for setting the diamond (would be free if you buy their center diamond). The average fee is $2 per point. My diamond is 1.13 carat = going to cost me $226 for this service. Another is to get insurance before any work on your stone as B&M store are not responsible for chipping or any accidental while working on your stone
Other expenses to think about: appraisal and insurance. Buying both center diamond and setting at one place would be easier for appraisal and insurance purpose, but it''s not a big deal to me

Overall, it was a great experience, not easy by any means, but no regrets on my part
I wish you the best. Go out there, test the water and see what works for you

 

[NeverEndingUpgrade]

Date: 10/31/2008 7:13:54 PM
Author: Dancing Fire

Date: 10/31/2008 11:56:04 AM
Author: grapegravity


I totally agree with Neil on the highlighted part...
This is the reason why my fiance purchased my e-ring at B & M even though he could get it via internet $10000 cheaper.
Whenever I need to get my ring serviced there, it''s free and unlimited (even rhodium plating and resizing) and it will be done within a day. They even rhodium plate and resize my WB (which was bought from another vendor) for free!!!

In addition, my SA said hi to us (by first and last name) when we saw her three years after the ring purchase. To me, that is impressive!!

Just my 2 cents

impressive ??? for $10K....
not only i''ll remember your names,but i''ll tatoo it on my chest

and gave you a manicure every time you come in the store.

Please tell me where you store is. I would like to become a customer!

 

[Dancing Fire]

Date: 10/31/2008 7:35:33 PM
Author: NeverEndingUpgrade

Date: 10/31/2008 7:13:54 PM
Author: Dancing Fire

Date: 10/31/2008 11:56:04 AM
Author: grapegravity



I totally agree with Neil on the highlighted part...
This is the reason why my fiance purchased my e-ring at B & M even though he could get it via internet $10000 cheaper.
Whenever I need to get my ring serviced there, it''s free and unlimited (even rhodium plating and resizing) and it will be done within a day. They even rhodium plate and resize my WB (which was bought from another vendor) for free!!!

In addition, my SA said hi to us (by first and last name) when we saw her three years after the ring purchase. To me, that is impressive!!

Just my 2 cents

impressive ??? for $10K....
not only i''ll remember your names,but i''ll tatoo it on my chest

and gave you a manicure every time you come in the store.

Please tell me where you store is. I would like to become a customer!

if i can make an extra $10k on every stone i sell then i''ll open one tomorrow !!

 

[TheDoctor]

Date: 10/31/2008 8:46:29 AM
Author: neatfreak

Date: 10/31/2008 8:43:21 AM
Author: arjunajane
To all these posters lamenting the lack of pro- B&M info on here, I say stop complaining and do something!

Yes, the majority of threads complimenting vendors are for the same ones over and over - so what, they''ve clearly earned it.

If you feel so strongly that your B&M is just as good, then post a review of your experience ! Get their name out there if they have done you well.


I see so many times a poster asking for ''A great Jeweller in (insert city or state here)?''..But rarely does anyone reply!

This site is not anti-B&M. It is a consumer resource for finding reputable vendors (amongst other things).


Like I said, please stop criticizing other posters favourites, and start contributing to the knowledge and resources instead.

Agreed. What we are ALL here for is consumer education. We don''t tell people to run away from B&M''s if they are providing good service and good prices. But for all those bashing ''internet'' vendors, we get SO MANY people running to them from dishonest B&M vendors too. How many times a day do we hear about people getting screwed by local stores? Or getting misinformation? A lot.

Any vendor, whether a B&M or not, that treats me well and is honest will get my business. I could care less whether they are virtual or not.

And just to put some of the misinformation to rest, some of our most recommended vendors here have both an internet presence AND a B&M. And oh my gosh, we still recommend them!!!

And If you are a B&M vendor who wants to garner up business here, this isn''t the way to do it.

One last post and then I''ll leave this one alone. Further explanation of earlier statements is necessary so that the perplexed and offended may have a better understanding of the origin of the angst expressed in my first and subsequent replies regarding this subject.
When a prospective client approaches and inquires about how we might set a stone he or she has purchased elsewhere, I usually ask "Why haven''t I already met you?"
They want the work but assume I want too much for the diamond and buy online. I was never asked for a quote for a diamond, nor even considered as a credible source. The client has done their research online, and have been told through forums like these that buying the diamond online is the best option..

Now, after the fact, I must ask them to sign a disclaimer about my liability should the stone suffer damage during the setting process. This makes them really uncomfortable, and adds doubt to my abilities. So now I must cuddle an anxious client who hasn''t allowed me a profit on that diamond, throughout the 3 or so weeks that he or she must wait while we put together the project. Our profit on the mounting is almost always significantly lower that what the diiamond vendor made on their deal.
Setting stones we didn''t sell hasn''t been an option, at least not without a signed disclaimer. Long after this policy was established, we encountered damage to one diamond during the setting process that ruined a really nice friendship, and that one will haunt me for the rest of my days. Friends, no disclaimer.
It was an heirloom stone, not an online purchase, but the emotional distress can be similar with either. A very hard lesson learned.

About where things are going...online info on any topic is readily available with a click or two, and diamonds/gemstones/jewellery occupy multi-millions of URLs, not because anyone wants you all to know everything there is to know about jewellery, but because they stand to make a buck if their pitch is compelling enough. A site that offers thousands of testimonials about the online vendor sponsors is strong stuff, yet...if that is all the new-to-jewellery prospective purchaser is exposed to during their online search for information, they will not waste their time with a visit to their local B&M because the mantra here is that online is better. Fair enough, opinion is welcomed on this site and they are numerous and varied, which is great.
The caveat, though, is that with all aspects of human nature, we want to have our own decisions validated, and the online purchasers will do so in online forums, taking comfort when others follow their lead.

The bothersome advice oft given is disturbing, though...specifically, go to you local store to see what looks good on you, then ignore the tactics of the awful salesperson and BUY ONLINE when you have decided what you want. Use up their time teasing them with a potential sale, then come back to the online vendors so that a click or an email will get you what you want in a heartbeat. I read the forums, I''ve seen this in several threads, not in those exact words but the general idea is as such.
Competition is a grand thing, embraced by us all. But when it comes to service, it takes the assistance and service accessed through the B&M establishments to keep everyone happy. The numbers of B&M shops are dwindling, though, not necessarily because they aren''t worthy of customer''s business, but because their traditional approach to full-product sales and service is being edited by their accountants who see a need to downsize everything in order to stay afloat, as the uninitiated potential customers who research their first jewellery purchase (online) are counselled to buy a diamond online and have the local company set it.

Hardly anyone wants a loose diamond. They want to wear it. The profit on an online diamond sale rewards the diamond part of the trade as they have always been rewarded (through closed sale to jewellers and manufacturers), but the persons/companies who put the settings into motion are not able to reap the associated rewards. Typically, the mount costs less than 10% of what the diamond did. On a $10,000.00 diamond sale at 10 percent profit, the vendor pockets a grand. The company who produces the ring cuddles the client, produces a design or sells an existing one, but it''s really an after-the-main-sale venture, and the company or individual who provides a what should be a multi-technical service is rewarded by a profit of well under half of the grand or so clients are willing to spend on a mount. So, many of your B&M experiences now leave you with failed shoe salesmen trying desperately to earn enough of a commision to keep the wolves at bay. This is a relatively new phenomenon, sort of coinciding with the surge of sales in internet-accessed diamonds.

So, what is being lost is the incentive. Jewellers lack incentive. There are hardly any new bench jewellers (benchies, those who work with their hands) being brought into the trade because the consumers are quite happy to support the diamond trade at their asking price but begrudge the service people a decent living. Kids don''t want to make 10 bucks an hour for 10 years while they learn enough to know that it''s hard work and, for the most part, unappreciated. I make a comfortable living because I work uphill 12 hours a day, but would never pass the reins to one of my kids, there are way easier ways to earn a decent income. Thankfully, my offspring are all finding their own way through advanced education in fields which have a future.

This was never about me.
It was about the original poster, who asked an important question.
"Local versus Internet.

My advice to those who have already bought the diamond online is to seek their service there as well, as it is their preference. You vote for what you want with your dollars, follow through to the full extent of your resolve! The able will persevere, the weak will fade away.

 

[grapegravity]

Date: 10/31/2008 7:13:54 PM
Author: Dancing Fire

Date: 10/31/2008 11:56:04 AM
Author: grapegravity




I totally agree with Neil on the highlighted part...
This is the reason why my fiance purchased my e-ring at B & M even though he could get it via internet $10000 cheaper.
Whenever I need to get my ring serviced there, it's free and unlimited (even rhodium plating and resizing) and it will be done within a day. They even rhodium plate and resize my WB (which was bought from another vendor) for free!!!

In addition, my SA said hi to us (by first and last name) when we saw her three years after the ring purchase. To me, that is impressive!!

Just my 2 cents

impressive ??? for $10K....
not only i'll remember your names,but i'll tatoo it on my chest

and gave you a manicure every time you come in the store.

It was not me who decided where and who to buy the ring from... so maybe if you have some Flames (my FI's fav hockey team) autograph to giveaway with purchase, he may do business with ya

 

[grapegravity]

Date: 10/31/2008 3:45:04 PM
Author: Laxinthe303

I don''t know how much some people make a year in here, but if the difference of TEN THOUSAND DOLLARS isn''t a huge deal, do you have like some man-servant typing for you?

How did you know I have one?

 

[NeverEndingUpgrade]

Date: 10/31/2008 9:30:55 PM
Author: TheDoctor

This was never about me.
It was about the original poster, who asked an important question.
'Local versus Internet.

Correction--Your first post was not about the OP. It was about taking me to task after I described what good working relationships I have with my diamond vendor, and 2 local B&M stores that I frequently patronize (I think you had a problem with me using the word "use"). A situation which blows your whole theory right out of the water. Wow, your last post has so much bitterness in it.

 

[denverappraiser]

David,

Firstly, thanks for your participation in the forum. As you point out, one of the things that’s missing here is passionate jewelers who are proud of their craft and your input here is 100% welcome, even if it doesn’t coincide with everything you read.

I certainly agree that the business of jewelry is changing but I disagree that it’s not possible for a skilled benchie to make their way. If anything this is improving. For years, ‘tradeshops’ have been the route of aspiring goldsmiths and they are generally a truly soul sucking experience for the employees. The number of people who have successfully made it through that route to becoming the jewelry that they dreamed of is insanely small. This is why no one wants to become a benchman any more. This is basically the case with all of the manual trades by the way. Plumbers, electricians, welders, bakers, et.al. are all facing a similar crisis of skilled workers and I don’t think you can blame this on the Internet. Personally, I blame it solidly on the schools where everyone wants to be a marine biologist or a lawyer and no one wants to be a plumber, a mechanic or a goldsmith. They all get driven from the high schools to the colleges. This is true even for the kids who will make crappy lawyers but would be excellent electricians. The result is a lot of frustrated crappy lawyers and a shortage of tradespeople. Pity. We’re all losers in this. But I digress….

You mentioned several things that frustrate you. First is the issue of damage liability. Why not simply accept the liability and charge enough to cover your risks? If you’re setting a $10,000 stone, raise your prices by $100 to cover this ‘insurance’ component. If it breaks, apologize, buy them another one (or just cut them a check for the agreed amount), recut the stone to repair the damage and sell the repaired stone to your supplier or some other customer? Unless you really screw it up it’s unlikely this will cost you more than a few thousand dollars and unless you’re really a butcher your breakage rate will be far less than 1/100 so this will actually be a profit center. In the extreme cases where you just don’t want to take the chance for whatever reason you can always decline the job and you are in a better position than anyone to assess these risks. Set 10 stones a week and break 1 a year and you’ve just raised your income by something like $50,000!

It is not necessary to maintain a showroom full of merchandise for people who then will go buy online. There are plenty of successful jewelers who simply don’t sell diamonds at all. Leon Mege and Mark Morrell come to mind as two popular names here. They aren’t selling Walmart merchandise, they don’t charge Walmart prices and although I’m sure they lose a few customers by not being the cheapest, neither one seems to be suffering for lack of clients. Both have loyal followings and as far as I can tell, neither one misses the diamond business one bit. If your showroom is full of your own designs to show your clients, the Internet guys don’t have the opportunity to undercut you. The business that’s in the crapper are the ones that are ordering things in from Stuller or Overnite, setting a few calibrated stones in them and calling it custom. Not to be unsympathetic but good riddance. These aren’t jewelers, they’re catalog showrooms and the fact that big internet houses can do it better is just evolution. We get people here several times a week asking where they can get their stones set. I don’t recall EVER hearing that the problem was that the local skilled craftsman charged too much, it’s that they couldn’t find someone to do the work at all, they couldn’t find someone who they felt was trustworthy or that their chosen craftsman was so busy that they couldn’t get it done fast enough. You just heard a few posts above that in someone’s town the AVERAGE price they found for setting a 1.13 was $226 without insurance and there’s no need to be the average guy. How about being the expensive one? Line those customers up at the door and you’ll be a wealthy man. The problem here isn’t that these aren’t desirable customers or that there is too much competition, it’s that the jewelers don’t seem to want the work.

Nearly every day in my appraisal practice I have more than one client who asks me about a stone that they bought online and who is concerned about where to get it set. The worry is almost always about the quality of workmanship, about liability and about speed. Price isn’t even on the list. The ‘benchies’ are marketing themselves so poorly that people simply don’t know where to go. Given the choice of setting their new $10,000 stone for $20 or setting it properly for $300, most clients will go with the expensive one. Wouldn’t you? This trend is growing and it looks to me like one heck of an opportunity for a skilled tradesman.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[mrssalvo]

Date: 10/31/2008 9:16:25 AM
Author: arjunajane

Date: 10/31/2008 8:46:29 AM

Author: neatfreak




Agreed. What we are ALL here for is consumer education. We don''t tell people to run away from B&M''s if they are providing good service and good prices. But for all those bashing ''internet'' vendors, we get SO MANY people running to them from dishonest B&M vendors too. How many times a day do we hear about people getting screwed by local stores? Or getting misinformation? A lot.


Any vendor, whether a B&M or not, that treats me well and is honest will get my business. I could care less whether they are virtual or not.


And just to put some of the misinformation to rest, some of our most recommended vendors here have both an internet presence AND a B&M. And oh my gosh, we still recommend them!!!



And If you are a B&M vendor who wants to garner up business here, this isn''t the way to do it.

Exactly ! GOG is a family run B&M with how many years of serving their community? Almost 20 is it? They have only moved into internet sales in recent years, if anyone cared to check their facts.

This is precisely what I mean by misinformed statements...

yep, pearlmans who has been around since 1930 or so and Winfields are two other B&M''s that are VERY popular here as well. they have just adjusted their business''s to compete with the online market.

personally, i think buying from a local non-chain mall jeweler is a great idea if you''ve got a good one in your city. I think paying a little more for the in person customer service and relationship would be worth it. also, to be able to avoid having to pay to ship the ring for servicing etc. is a plus. the key is finding a good one.

also, it is usually recommend on here to buy a stone and setting from the same place if possible to avoid some of the problems the doctor has mentioned. It can be difficult to find a jeweler to set a stone you didn''t buy from them into a setting you didn''t buy from them etc.