Las Vegas shooting

[Calliecake]

I'm on deadline so missed much of the conversation

@Calliecake I think that some consideration has to be taken for bullet size. Hand guns and rifles are different in a lot of ways and the loading platform also different.

@Arcadian I freely admit I don't know very much about bullets or guns. I do know that after 911 many things were done to help ensure we did not have another attack and to stop attacks before they happened. We have these deadly shooting frequently and after 2 days they aren't mentioned and nothing is done to make changes so they don't happen again. As I've stated numerous times in this thread and others, we do not need guns that are purposely made to kill large numbers of people in a matter of seconds. We don't need magazines that make it possible for many bullets to be shot in a mater if seconds and we need action taken so this type of shooting doesn't happen again. We also don't need bullets that enter the body and ricochet and destroy all your organs. I'm sick of hearing criminals will get these guns anyway. Outlaw these types of guns and these magazine. If you are found with them, you automatically get 20 years in prison, no plea bargaining, go straight to prison. If someone commits a crime with your gun, you spend 5 years in prison. We need to begin holding people accountable. It's your gun, you are just as responsible as the person who shot people. Your kid dies buy your gun, you automatically go to jail. I'm sick of people feeling sorry for these parent negligence.

Republicans on this forum want any woman who is supporting kids with no help from anyone to not be able to buy a freaking Dove bar or special tuna with their money. And yet they are fine with people being killed and say it's their right to have these guns. This is country is insane and we are all responsible because we allow this to continue.

The second amendment is crap in my opinion. Our founding fathers would be dumbfounded by how ridiculous our country has become. Every one of these shooting victims had the right to come home safely after attending a concert. We need to start caring about them as much as the gun owners rights. WE NEED TO MAKE MAJOR CHANGES.

Jumping off my soap box.

 

[Calliecake]

I need my coffee this morning. My response above was in regard to @Redwood feeling government was too involved in our lives. Was what I responded an example of how you feel government is too involved or did I miss your point?

 

[OreoRosies86]

"Republicans on this forum want any woman who is supporting kids with no help from anyone to not be able to buy a freaking Dove bar or special tuna with their money. And yet they are fine with people being killed and say it's their right to have these guns. This is country is insane and we are all responsible because we allow this to continue."

+1000000000000000000000

The hypocrisy never ends. I thought life is sacred? Isn't that why Planned Parenthood is always having to protect themselves against these people?

 

[luv2sparkle]

There is one aspect of this shooting that I find odd-this shooter does not seem to have had a background of hate or a known mental illness that brought him to this point. He seems to have loved his family and lived a relatively normal life.

 

[redwood66]

There is one aspect of this shooting that I find odd-this shooter does not seem to have had a background of hate or a known mental illness that brought him to this point. He seems to have loved his family and lived a relatively normal life.

I read somewhere that he was on Diazepam but have no idea if this is reliable. There is so much misinformation out there.

 

[redwood66]

My post was added to Redwood post above for some reason.

I made a comment to @Redwood stating that Government was too unvolved in our lives. I'm not trying be to argumentative here

Republicans felt we were putting too much money into FMEA and EPA and cut these budgets. Along come 3 hurricanes that are going to cost more than anyone could have guessed. The point I'm trying to make is that these government agencies are for our good. People in Houston snd Puerto Rico are concerned about their water quality. We already know from the past that we cannot trust corporations to do the right thing as far as what they put in our water and our air. We need these agencies for our protection and we need them funded adequately. Look at the drinking water in Detroit.

Pat Robertson made the most disgusting comment after the Vegas shootings. He said the shooting happened because of our countries disrespect for Trump, God and the Nation Anthem.
I didn't hear him sayinh that maybe God was trying to tell us to wake the hell up and plan for national disasters after 3 hurricanes. Government agencies are there for a reason,

@Calliecake there are plenty of good things the government does and FEMA is one of them. I have a different opinion on the EPA on some issues. It was established by a Republican - Nixon. People had no idea how bad they were affecting the planet with no regulation at all. Some is good. But too much is not. Government should not have mandated curly Q light bulbs that are extremely toxic to the environment. If they had waited just a bit the budding LED technology would have been much better than incandescent that we were using for over 100 years. I wonder what agency, corporate and congressional shenanigans were involved in that? I have discussed other issues previously and won't go into them in this thread. I am not an anarchist who believes in no government at all.

I also believe is the government mismanages the funds they receive too much and all agencies that ask for more $ ought to have to try to review and adjust their current budget before doing it. This includes the military. If I want something but don't have the funds sure I could put it on a credit card but at some point I will have too much debt to afford. Democrats and Republicans both do it. It is our money they are spending.

We can agree on many things but will not agree on all and that is ok.

 

[Dee*Jay]

@Calliecake there are plenty of good things the government does and FEMA is one of them. I have a different opinion on the EPA on some issues. It was established by a Republican - Nixon. People had no idea how bad they were affecting the planet with no regulation at all. Some is good. But too much is not. Government should not have mandated curly Q light bulbs that are extremely toxic to the environment. If they had waited just a bit the budding LED technology would have been much better than incandescent that we were using for over 100 years. I wonder what agency, corporate and congressional shenanigans were involved in that? I have discussed other issues previously and won't go into them in this thread. I am not an anarchist who believes in no government at all.

I want to build on this point but in a different way. I think the problem is not always moving to quickly but rather being unwilling/unable to CONTINUE to move. Things change and improve and evolve. Just because something was put in place doesn't mean it should then be set in stone and never revised. There's no reason the "light bulb rules" (or any "rules") can be revisited when it makes sense to do so, but I don't see that happen often.

 

[Calliecake]

Okay for some reason I thought you were against much of government. Government and businesses a like have been known to waste some money. Nothing is every going to be perfect money wise no matter who is in charge.

I personally think Tom Price should have paid back all money he used on private planes but lets be honest he wasn't the first person to do this and he won't be the last, I did think holding him responsible for the money would be a good move as it might prevent others from doing this going forward. It was all of our million dollars he spent after all.

 

[Calliecake]

I want to build on this point but in a different way. I think the problem is not always moving to quickly but rather being unwilling/unable to CONTINUE to move. Things change and improve and evolve. Just because something was put in place doesn't mean it should then be set in stone and never revised. There's no reason the "light bulb rules" (or any "rules") can be revisited when it makes sense to do so, but I don't see that happen often.

That's how I feel about the 2 amendment. It's a completely different world now. Common sense needs to be used regarding our country and guns. Prayers aren't doing anything to help anyone. Lets fix this instead of doing nothing and sending Prayers every time a mass shooting happens. Our country should have evolved 20 years ago in regards to gun control. We could have saved so many lives.

 

[redwood66]

I want to build on this point but in a different way. I think the problem is not always moving to quickly but rather being unwilling/unable to CONTINUE to move. Things change and improve and evolve. Just because something was put in place doesn't mean it should then be set in stone and never revised. There's no reason the "light bulb rules" (or any "rules") can be revisited when it makes sense to do so, but I don't see that happen often.

Yes this is absolutely true. But I think this was a particularly terrible decision as we already knew that existing fluorescent bulbs were toxic if broken yet we were mandated to use them. I would love for people in cities to have affordable electric cars but let's not fool ourselves into thinking that there is not an affect to the environment with batteries that must be replaced and are toxic to dispose of. Battery technology must come further and it is industry that will move it. And the cost of the cars has not come down enough for most to afford. Hopefully that will happen as the technology advances.

In all the discussions on various topics it is the all or nothing stance that bothers me most. Compromise is the only way. We have to.

 

[kenny]

Pray someone does something.

 

[redwood66]

That's how I feel about the 2 amendment. It's a completely different world now. Common sense needs to be used regarding our country and guns. Prayers aren't doing anything to help anyone. Lets fix this instead of doing nothing and sending Prayers every time a mass shooting happens. Our country should have evolved 20 years ago in regards to gun control. We could have saved so many lives.

And we can disagree respectfully right?

 

[redwood66]

Okay for some reason I thought you were against much of government. Government and businesses a like have been known to waste some money. Nothing is every going to be perfect money wise no matter who is in charge.

I personally think Tom Price should have paid back all money he used on private planes but lets be honest he wasn't the first person to do this and he won't be the last, I did think holding him responsible for the money would be a good move as it might prevent others from doing this going forward. It was all of our million dollars he spent after all.

But that doesn't mean we just accept the fact that they waste money. I will never do that.

Tom Price is an idiot and should pay back every cent.

 

[Calliecake]

Can we agree that changes need to made to prevent another day like Monday from happening? If not, what will be the magic number of people getting killed and hurt before you (and Republicans) feel changes need to be made? .Almost 600 people were shot or killed in a matter of 9 minutes. 9 MINUTES. Every fiber of my being shouts that is so messed up, we need to fix this. If you don't agree please explain why. I not being a smart ass @redwood66 I just don't understand why it isn't easy to see especially after hearing that only 22% of the county are gun owners. My husband owns a gun and he would gladly give them up if it saved someone's life to do so.

 

[redwood66]

Can we agree that changes need to made to prevent another day like Monday from happening? If not, what will be the magic number of people getting killed and hurt before you (and Republicans) feel changes need to be made? .Almost 600 people were shot or killed in a matter of 9 minutes. 9 MINUTES. Every fiber of my being shouts that is so messed up, we need to fix this. If you don't agree please explain why.

I am all for changes that will actually prevent happenings like this. What would those be that are not placations that do nothing to prevent it? Do you actually think that conservatives or Republicans want these kinds of horrible acts to happen? BTW your husband could go turn in his gun to the police right now. He doesn't have to wait to be told to. I am not being a smart ass either.


Repealing the 2nd Amendment is not compromise and neither is confiscation. This may be something we will just have to disagree about. That should be ok too.

 

[Dee*Jay]

I am all for changes that will actually prevent happenings like this. What would those be that are not placations that do nothing to prevent it? Do you actually think that conservatives or Republicans want these kinds of horrible acts to happen?

Repealing the 2nd Amendment is not compromise and neither is confiscation.

I don't think 2nd Amendment repeal or confiscation* are on the table, nor should they necessarily be. But I do think there is much opportunity here. For instance, there is wide variation between states. Achieving some sort of consistency (and no, I'm NOT saying all states need to rise to the same HIGHEST level) might be beneficial. That way if someone couldn't buy a guy in Illinois s/he also couldn't drive 20 miles across the Indiana line and get one there (which is currently exactly what happens). I do believe that SOME rules and requirements are indeed beneficial in society, and I think owning a device that can kill people is a very valid instance of where those make sense.

*Necessarily = if it is deemed illegal to have automatic weapons then people should voluntarily turn them in. And in the Land of Utopia they would, but I have no illusions about what actual owners or automatic weapons would really do.

 

[Calliecake]

@Redwood are you against confiscation of the assault type riflles that kill multiple people at one time? I have no idea what the proper name for this type of gun is but I think you know what I mean. I feel these type of guns should be illegal period. You have one and are caught, you should get jail time of more than a couple years.

If you don't agree we might as well quit trying to discuss this. I'm not saying every gun should be illegal just the type used in these types of killing sprees that serve no purpose other than to kill large numbers of people in a matter of minutes. I think that is a great compromise.

My husband has a rife he used to use for skeet shooting. It's locked in a safe and hasn't been used for over 12 years. He has no problem giving it up but I doubt it would ever be considered illegal in our lifetime.

 

[redwood66]

I don't think 2nd Amendment repeal or confiscation* are on the table, nor should they necessarily be. But I do think there is much opportunity here. For instance, there is wide variation between states. Achieving some sort of consistency (and no, I'm NOT saying all states need to rise to the same HIGHEST level) might be beneficial. That way if someone couldn't buy a guy in Illinois s/he also couldn't drive 20 miles across the Indiana line and get one there (which is currently exactly what happens). I do believe that SOME rules and requirements are indeed beneficial in society, and I think owning a device that can kill people is a very valid instance of where those make sense.

*Necessarily = if it is deemed illegal to have automatic weapons then people should voluntarily turn them in. And in the Land of Utopia they would, but I have no illusions about what actual owners or automatic weapons would really do.

I am unsure of what you mean about buying the gun in Chicago. If someone can't purchase in Illinois then they probably can't in Indiana. Maybe the types of weapons you can own are different from state to state but if you buy something in one state but take it to your state where it is illegal then you have just broken your existing law. Am I misunderstanding you?

Edit - This may be where being part of a Republic is bothersome to some people. That is meant with the utmost respect to you @Dee*Jay

 

[redwood66]

@Redwood are you against confiscation of the assault type riflles that kill multiple people at one time? I have no idea what the proper name for this type of gun is but I think you know what I mean.

If you don't agree we might as well quit trying to discuss this. I'm not saying every gun should be illegal just the type used in these types of killing sprees that serve no purpose other than to kill large numbers of people in a matter of minutes. I think that is a great compromise,

Perhaps it is best that we agree to disagree respectfully. Thanks for the opportunity to at least attempt it.

 

[Calliecake]

@Redwood Do you know why people are against registering your guns? Our cars have to be registered, why should guns not be registered?

 

[Dee*Jay]

I am unsure of what you mean about buying the gun in Chicago. If someone can't purchase in Illinois then they probably can't in Indiana. Maybe the types of weapons you can own are different from state to state but if you buy something in one state but take it to your state where it is illegal then you have just broken your existing law. Am I misunderstanding you?

Red, here's an excerpt from this article:

While Illinois has gone to great lengths to see that background checks are done for all gun purchases, Indiana has done the opposite. To buy a weapon in Illinois, the owner must have a valid firearms owner’s identification card, issued by the Illinois State Police.

With no permit or license required to purchase a gun in Indiana, it is incredibly easy for a trafficker to drive across the state line, obtain a gun and use it to commit a homicide on the streets of Chicago.

And here is the link to the full article. If you read it please don't take umbrage at the tone, just look at the information being presented. It is a bit preachy (even to me) and the article is not on the exact point we're discussing here, but the info contained within is good.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/...l-chicago-dahleen-glanton-20171003-story.html

 

[OreoRosies86]

Ok well would at least one pro gun PSer please explain why we need assault weapons that fire enough rounds to cause multiple casualties in one use? Because so far all I'm seeing is "We disagree" as an attempt to shut down a conversation and not one legitimate reason.

 

[Bonfire]

 

[Calliecake]

Perhaps it is best that we agree to disagree respectfully. Thanks for the opportunity to at least attempt it.

Sorry @Redwood we are never going to agree on this. Too many innocents people have died who deserved to live their life more than someone deserves to have a certain type of gun. Its a matter of common sense. No one is that special that they deserve to have something that can kill so many people. It's insane to me and pains me that common sense doesn't rule. I heard family members of victims on TV asking when will the number of people being killed/shot in this types of shooting be reached before we as country wake up. Seriously 600 isn't enough for you? What is the magic number? Perhaps if it were one if your children who was killed you would see this differently..

 

[redwood66]

Sorry @Redwood we are never going to agree on this. Too many innocents people have died who deserved to live their life more than someone deserves to have a certain type of gun. Its a matter of common sense. No one is that special that they deserve to have something that can kill so many people. It's insane to me and pains me that common sense doesn't rule. I heard family members of victims on TV asking when will the number of people being killed/shot in this types of shooting be reached before we as country wake up. Seriously 600 isn't enough for you? What is the magic number? Perhaps if it were one if your children who was killed you would see this differently..

Now this is just too much. I did not do this with you and this is why nothing will ever get anywhere.

 

[Calliecake]

Ok well would at least one pro gun PSer please explain why we need assault weapons that fire enough rounds to cause multiple casualties in one use? Because so far all I'm seeing is "We disagree" as an attempt to shut down a conversation and not one legitimate reason.

I agree @Elliot86. I need to take another look at the meme you sent me the other day. This is insanity and I'm just getting angry and sad. And why because people feel they are so special that they have no regard for innocent people. It just wrong and easy to see that no compromise will ever take place. No one has said to remove the 2nd amendment. Just start using common sense in what should be allowed. I think that would be a great compromise, as I hate guns. The republicans don't want to comprise. They want it their way and for the rest of us to see it as they do. It's wrong on so many levels.

 

[Calliecake]

Now this is just too much. I did not do this with you.

No it's not Red. This very well could happen to any of our children. Do you think the people's families who went to that concert Sunday night thought they would never see their family member when they walked out the door or their family member would be shot. 600 People. I am not being disrespectful. It's a fact.

 

[OreoRosies86]

I was thinking about this in pickup today at my kids' school. A group of parents were groaning and moaning about the "no peanut butter" rule that was implemented this year as a preschooler has a deadly allergic reaction to it. The way they were talking it was as though they would literally rather be able to pack peanut butter in their kids' lunches than ensure a 4 year old won't die from having an allergy attack. People don't want to even have a conversation about WHY we need assault weapons of this scale and damage potential yet weep openly about how there is no easy answer to preventing murder sprees, a daily occurrence.

Are we this far gone as people? We look at things from peanut butter to guns and say "Well it's sad, but I should be able to do what I want." My goodness. Awful. And you know what? If you felt and still feel that way after Newtown, it's a character flaw. A very deep one. Fix it and be better.

 

[redwood66]

No it's not Red. This very well could happen to any of our children. Do you think the people's families who went to that concert Sunday night thought they would never see their family member when they walked out the door or their family member would be shot. 600 People. I am not being disrespectful. It's a fact.

You want someone to rant at and I will not be that for you. Discussion is one thing but you have moved it beyond by making it personal and questioning my empathy for victims. I am fully aware of what criminals do with guns and other items to harm and kill innocent people and it did not take a mass shooting either. People are the problem and yes it could happen to anyone.

 

[redwood66]

Red, here's an excerpt from this article:

While Illinois has gone to great lengths to see that background checks are done for all gun purchases, Indiana has done the opposite. To buy a weapon in Illinois, the owner must have a valid firearms owner’s identification card, issued by the Illinois State Police.

With no permit or license required to purchase a gun in Indiana, it is incredibly easy for a trafficker to drive across the state line, obtain a gun and use it to commit a homicide on the streets of Chicago.

And here is the link to the full article. If you read it please don't take umbrage at the tone, just look at the information being presented. It is a bit preachy (even to me) and the article is not on the exact point we're discussing here, but the info contained within is good.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/...l-chicago-dahleen-glanton-20171003-story.html

Thanks for the link. A background check must be done at an FFL dealer for a legal transaction in every state. Private sales maybe not depending on the state. In your excerpt it says trafficker - that person is already breaking the law by being a trafficker. Straw purchasing is illegal already. Perhaps we should not sell guns across state lines which would do away with the problem of someone buying something that is illegal in their home state. I can see business owners squawking a bit because it would lessen their sales numbers but that is not my problem.