Large I1 Princess

[flint]

I am thinking of buying this diamond. I got it for a good price but haven''t paid yet. Seller seems to be a reputable one and I don''t think they are out to cheat anybody.

The seller said there are no black inclusions but some white feathers are eye visible; although very slightly visible if thru the unaided eye.

The center stone is 2.65carats and around 7.5mm x 7.5mm. He said the stone is fiery and bright but ofcourse it is an i1. The picture is the actual ring.

Do you think the visible inclusions seen in the blown up picture are acceptable? I am not a clarity freak but would not accept a diamond that is dull looking and has black carbons. White feathers are ok as long as they do not distract from the beauty of the stone.

Color is H. I love looking at the ring and at 7.5mm x 7.5 I don''t think I wouuld be able to see any inclusions. What do you think?

 

[valeria101]

I can see something going on inside the stone... not much.... bust the picture has very high contrast and that doesn't help see the inclusions (like bright light would for the diamond).

The symmetry of the cut looks quite pleasant

and this wouldn't be the first I1 that gets a great cut to sell.

If you can take a look at it before the sale becomes final (i.e. there is a return policy), why not.



Now... not sure how this sounds to you, but.... diamonds like this one sometimes get treated, e.g. large feather may be made to vanish from sight by fracture filling, while the grade and price stays the same. Low quality goods and the occasional misrepresentation tarnished the name of clarity enhanced diamonds somewhat, but that is irrelevant, I guess. In fact, I am wondering if this one could be a candidate for such treatment. After seeing the stone as is, you could ask about this.

 

[squarediamondlove]

Hi flint,

I think you must must see the diamond in person to establish whether you would mind the inclusions. I know it would definately be visible to some people (like myself) and from what the picture shows if someone more than just glances at the ring (but rater stares closely at it for about 5 seconds they too will likely notice the inclusions).

Also for larger stones it is harder to hide the inclusions. But like you said, if you don''t mind having inclusions to some extent, you should really go see whether these inclusions bother you. Also, if you can, I would suggest getting an idealscope to inspect it.

Another thing, is it GIA rated as i1 or is it rated by the jeweler as i1? Because it may very well be lower than that - so take that possiblity into consideration. The cut is harder to tell, but it doen''t seem to set off any red flags.

 

[Lorelei]

If you like the ring get an independant appraisal ( which might be limited if the diamond is mounted) but get an expert to run an eye over it especially with the feathers. I am a great fan of clean I1''s - you can get a lot of bang for the buck if you find a good one. If the price is right it might be a good way to maximize size for the budget.

 

[flint]

Hi valeria,

The stone was clarity enhanced and has a lifetime guarantee in case something happens to it. The seller clearly stated it but I forgot to mention it.
The idea of clarity enhancement seems fine to me since it makes ugly diamonds more pleasing to the eye at a fraction of the cost.

It''s actually graded si3/i1 but I think it looks like an i1. I am just not sure what all those sinewy lines are near the corners of the diamond. Is that normal for a princess cut? They look like "wrinkles" on every corner of the stone.

I tried looking at some VVS princess cuts and some of them have the same "wrinkles". It might be the reflection of the light or something. The only princess cuts without those "wrinkles" were color D and E princesses.

 

[justjulia]

This could be quite a find. What is the return policy? Princess cuts are great for hiding imperfections, but you will only know if it is "the one" when it is on your hand. I had a 3 c of the same color as my 2.5, but I could see the color more clearly in it and it bothered me (so I traded and got the 2.5). My 2.5 is a vvs2, but I do not know if that is the reason it shows so well (has almost no color for a K and a great amount of fire)- the 3 c was an si2 and did not have the same fire and looked yellow. From that I started rethinking that maybe clarity had something to do with how the light passed through the rock, but I think it probably has more to do with table and depth ratio. I''m sure there are others here with the right answers. I just go by my eyes. I say get the rock and know the return policy and don''t be afraid to send it back if it doesn''t make you happy right away. Don''t be fooled into thinking that it will grow on you. Hope this helps.

 

[justjulia]

To me, those wrinkles are what make it charming. I see something different every time I look at mine. Makes for lots of entertainment. My princess is emerals shaped-rectangular, which is interesting to me. I love the pyramids, the bars, the facets-it''s like everything rolled into one. I find the cut facinating. If you want down the road, can you trade again with this vendor or is this an "as is" sale? You may not want to ever trade again, but maybe you will. Something to think about.

 

[flint]

Hi Kaleidoscopic,

I think its rated si3/i1 from a lab called UGL. Not the most repectable lab in the world but I thought how much lower can the stone be graded if its already i1. I''ve seen i2 and i3 and they are pretty awful, if the picture is the real ring, then i1 would be a fair grade.

I would love an idealoscope. But I''d like to just judge the stone unaided, just with my eyes. I can understand that if you are paying for the very best diamond, you would magnify the stone 15x and look for imperfections, but since I know the stone is cheap I tend to be a bit lenient.

As long as I cannot easily see the inclusions and other people cannot easily see inclusions, its fine with me. I live in the part of the world where 99% of the diamonds sold do not come with any certificate at all. You either take your jewelers word for it or don''t. This forum has taught me a lot of things. And I am surprised at the level of sophisticated discussion going on, it''s very surreal.

 

[flint]

Hi Lorelei,

I like the way you think. I always go for diamonds graded si3 to i1 and try to find a beautiful stone. It''s the best way to find a bargain. It''s also very hard and you only get a few really good ones.

I don''t even know any online vendor that specializes in these type of stones. Is there even such as thing as an eye clean i1 stone? Hehehe, that would be like hitting a jackpot.

 

[flint]

Hi justjulia,

The seller has a 7 day return policy. But does not have an upgrade plan. At 2.65 carats, I hope I wont be thinking of an upgrade very soon.

I''ve seen a lot of lovely K color diamonds. Like you mentioned, princesses are very good in hiding imperfections. I''ve seen lower colored princess that were just sparkling colors wildly from a distance. They look wonderful and very white.

 

[Lorelei]

Hey Flint! I too have a large I1 which is very clean to the eye. The grade setter is a small white mark which is hidden with a prong so it is a very good look at a fraction of the cost

A pepper sprayed diamond I couldn't live with though!

Now there are a few things to consider with a clarity enhanced diamond. Many folk would advise staying away from these for various reasons, that the diamond is no longer " natural", durability issues etc ( depends) amongst others. However if you want a big cleanish diamond which looks good for less cash, then they have their place IMO. As far as I am aware these diamonds are still sold as the grade they were before the enhancement- for example a graded I1 might look similar to an SI1 after enhancement but you pay the I1 price. The enhancements as I understand it mean that the diamond has feathers and or surface reaching inclusions which once filled with the enhancement substance " vanish" or look a lot less visible, they are still there though. This is because the filler redirects the light path to stop the inclusion interfering with it - therefore you don't see it as much, rather like filling a crack in a windshield.

From what I gather the process is mainly permanent - a few caveats though... if you ever need to get the ring worked on by a jeweller, disclose the enhancement and as a jewellers torch can destroy the filling and it will bubble out - this can be redone though. Same with some acids jewellers use, and ammonia based cleaners are best avoided too I have heard. In any case if the filling is lost the company will redo it for free for you as far as I am aware.

Opinions here will vary I am sure, but IMO as someone who values cut and carat above all, a C.E. diamond might be a consideration for you if the price is right and you are sure that having a C.E won't bother you. Clean I1's do exist sure - they can take a bit of looking for though, but generally the bigger you go the chances increase even with a higher clarity that you might see something, especially with an I grade.

Hope this helps some!

 

[flint]

Lorelei, if you find more of that eye clean i1 with "prongable" inclusions, give me a holler. I''d love to see it.

So this ring could be an Si1 already but still graded an i1? Hmmm, makes me even happier. That would be a nice bonus.

 

[Lorelei]

Actually I am a

because I have not one but TWO eyeclean I1'S! I don't have pics to show regrettably but I am sure Miss Virginia won't mind if I post the link to her stunningly gorgeous and clean 1.7+ I1

Here's the thread.

http://www.pricescope.com/forum/show-me-the-ring/our-stone-1-71-h-i1-t42112.html enjoy!

 

[pinkflamingo]

Lorelei- Rounds are completely different than princesses in hiding inclusions. Also, I am sure Miss Virginia's lovely stone is not UGL graded. while I would seek out a beautiful K I1 IDEAL CUT round brilliant, this is completely different case.

UGL is not a reputable lab. It would be highly unlikely to find an eyeclean I1 princess from GIA or AGS. I would stick to VS2 or an eyeclean SI1. UGL grades are soft, which means you may have an I2 or maybe even an I3 in GIA standards. Is that the only picture you have seen of the item?

Also, the length/width ratio will make it look very small for it's weight. It is cut too deep.
Even this 2.3 carat princess will face up larger.

 

[pinkflamingo]

Also, some stones are graded after treatment. Do a board search here.
One thread

Some are graded before treatment, some are graded after. It would be incorrect to assume this would look like a Si1. It is equally likely that this was a I3 and was improved to an I1.

you are looking at durability issues in a stone this large. A good whack could cause the stone to fracture. You may not be looking at a stone that would last a lifetime.

What is your budget?

 

[Lorelei]

Yes PF - I posted Virginia's ring to show Flint there are eyeclean I1's out there if you get lucky and look hard enough. Sorry if you misunderstood, as the Princess Flint posted looked quite clean - they must be taken on a case by case basis and for hiding inclusions my preference would be a round, however I also have an I1 2 ct pear which is completely clean - I was just making the point that sometimes you can get lucky, not always. I am not familiar with this lab either, but the poster has seen this diamond and loves it and it seems the price may be right, also it might not be a top cut but as Flint mentioned, at this time they have no wish to go into great cut detail but rather choose what is pleasing to their eyes and price is a consideration. I also used the example of the diamond looking like an SI1 after treatment as an example ONLY, not saying in any way that it did look like an SI1. Also the durability issues need to be taken into account, that is why I suggested an expert eye to look over the diamond , might be limited if it is mounted, but to check to the best of their ability that this diamond doesn't have any structural issues. While many of us here might not consider a C.E. diamond, there is no doubt they are a definite option for some consumers if they know what they are buying.

 

[pinkflamingo]

waves at Lorelei-

See, I was under the impression that Flint has never seen it from the way she worded the first post. I may be wrong. if that is the only picture she has seen, I would want to see more pictures. JMHO of course.

 

[Lorelei]

Yep looks that way PF, I guess it could possibly be a contender if the price is right and everything else, be interested to see what your impressions are Flint if you go for it. Make sure the vendor has a good return policy and that you can get that appraisal during it. Just to compare, have a punt around to see what else you can get for the budget just so you have explored all your options.

 

[pinkflamingo]

You''re right, Lorelei.

Flint, I will second everything Lorelei said. I would get it independently appraised to make sure it is solid and not prone to breaking. Good luck!!

 

[flint]

Hi Lorelei and pink,

I''m still going to consider the ring to be an I1; definitely not going to delude myself into thinking its anywhere near si1

You are extremely lucky to find two large eye clean i1!!!

I believe this thing is definitely a contender. The seller agreed to part the ring for less than 1/4 the price of the 2.3C ring you linked, Pink. Although UGL is not as reputable as GIA, AGS or EGL-USA, I can''t also bring myself not to buy the diamond even just to see it. I''ve asked the seller to take more pictures of the diamond and I''ll post them. They do have a 100% refund (less shipping expenses) policy.

I''ve always though that this might be too good to be true but they have this Buysafe bond insured for $25,000. I keep expecting an ugly looking diamond but I really can''t help myself

 

[Lorelei]

Less than a quarter of the price of the one Pink posted??????

That makes it about less than $5k....that is incredibly cheap....even for a CE diamond. I would really keep in mind it must be too good to be true, no one is going to give away a good quality diamond at that price, CE or otherwise, especially at that size, but I am really hoping that it might fit the bill for you. Just a thought, is it with an online auction? I am wondering if it might be as it is so cheap...Who is the vendor? Just be careful and make sure you have a solid return policy to safeguard yourself.

 

[flint]

Lorelei,

It''s a vendor on ebay and I got it thru an online auction which I did not expect to win at such a cheap price. I''m not sure if I can mention the name in this forum. They are called outrageous auctions and they received almost 100% feedback. Over 2,000 transactions.

I am very wary that it might not be as pleasant as the picture, but it''s very cheap. Won it for $4650. Nowadays, ebay seems to be the only place that has people specializing in si3 and i1 stones. There was another one who seemed pretty honest Markntexas but he does not accept credit card and he does not have a buysafe bond insurance.

It does seem to good to be true. Am I crazy to even consider?

 

[klavigne]

I would worry more about the feathers in the stone than any inclusions. If the feathers are the main reason the grading was at an I1 I would be very leery. Feathers tend to cause diamonds to be very susceptible to cleaving. If it''s a feather that even remotely touches any facets I would count this one as a "close, but no cigar". Might be worth taking a look though, good luck!

 

[pinkflamingo]

Flint-
Have you paid for this yet? I would stay far away. If you paid less than 5K for a 2.65 carat diamond AND a setting with sidestones, there is a reason why. Also, be very wary of ebay, there are some horror stories here if you do a board search.

Good luck to you and I hope it turns out well whatever decision you make.

 

[justjulia]

I''m afraid I''m going to have to agree with Rice. I paid WAY WAY WAY WAY (WAY) more than that for my princess 2.5 K vvs2. This is a large investment and you should keep looking. Are you under pressure for time? Have some fun and keep looking! Also, I believe that you may indeed feel someday that you may want even larger......(I like to keep my little fantasy....hey, I''ve upgraded 12 times.........

) Just my humble opinion.

 

[justjulia]

You have probably already heard this, but fancy cuts tend to look smaller than rounds for their carot weight. Another reason to have an upgrade policy. And...things tend to look smaller with time. (Especially if you have already identified that you like larger stones in general.) Also, I like to put my rings in an ammonia suds bath every day. A clarity enhanced stone would make me a nervous wreck. But, you do what makes you happy and good luck.

 

[valeria101]

In theory, the price of the stone should reflect what it would be graded as before the clarity enhancement, and so should the grades given. Not sure how UGL works. If it looks included after the enhancement and was called I1 for the current looks... anyone's guess what the fracture filling hides. And the price starts to make sense.

There are more reliable reports available for fracture filled diamonds - I think EGL does it, and laser drilled diamonds w/o fracture filling can get GIA reports too.

Online, Yehuda lists a handful of treated diamonds.. and by comparison yours looks quite nice, priced at about the bottom of their range. Wish I knew better

Wish it looks like the picture! I doubt the inclusions could stay in the way of brilliance much, as long as the proportions of the stone do their job right. (and no, I couldn't tell that from table & depth - it takes more data). Since you will get to see it... who needs numbers though. Comparing cut quality with some standard (i.e. what the IS and ASET devices attempt to provide) may still make sense though if you do not feel you have seen enough to know what to look for. Perhaps the interpretation of what such tools can do errs a bit into hair splitting territory - but how far that gives is up to the user, IMO.

One guess.. it may be lower than 'H', but if the cut is nice, there is no durability issue to speak of and you like what you see... why not call this a good deal. I am quite curious to hear you impression, because the description provided by the seller is a tad too optimistic to be reassuring.

 

[moon river]

The bigger the stone the more you see the inclusions. Just because you don't see them now don't mean that when you look it over a million times a day like we all do you won't see them. Also, the fracture filled is not permanent I don't think. I've heard of inclusions 'appearing' after awhile.
Also, I'd be concerned that the vendor won't be around for a 'lifetime' in case you want to trade it.

 

[Scooba]

Date: 4/21/2006 7:59:12 PM
Author: moon river
The bigger the stone the more you see the inclusions. Just because you don''t see them now don''t mean that when you look it over a million times a day like we all do you won''t see them. Also, the fracture filled is not permanent I don''t think. I''ve heard of inclusions ''appearing'' after awhile.

Also, I''d be concerned that the vendor won''t be around for a ''lifetime'' in case you want to trade it.

This is kinda what I was going to say...once you find the inclusion or inclusions you will know exactly where they are and your eyes will always go right to them. I, personally, could never own a stone with a visible inclusion because I would be obsessed with it.

Maybe, I missed it but I didn''t catch if this stone was going to go in a first engagment ring, if this is a ring that someone is going to have when they get engaged I would be very very careful because everyone will be holding this ring very close up to look at it. I know that if I was showing off my brand new engagement ring and someone pulled my hand up to their face to get a good look at it and said "what''s that mark there, idid you see that?" or something like that both my boyfriend and I would be embarrased. Nothing against awesome find I1s, I know they are out there, I''m just saying I would be very careful. I bought my stone at a B&M because I just had to see the stones in person and I didn''t want to be ordering and sending back and ordering and sending back, and I wanted to be able to compare stone right next to each other.

 

[Rod]

No offense if you''ve already taken the plunge and bought this ring, but there have been some horror stories concerning ebay purchases. If you''ve got money to burn, then this may be moot, but I would absolutely positively run for the hills. And don''t assume that positive reviews on ebay means diddly squat.

It''s up to you, but there''s not a chance on this planet that I would trust such a purchase.

JMHO..........