L, M, N, O and warmer!

[snuggles1]

Where are good places to get L and warmer colored diamonds? I''ve seen some on Good Old Gold and Winfields. Also, do vendors sell stones in this color grade that are 0.50ct and below that are H&A? Thanks!

 

[swingirl]

Infinity Diamonds has a big range of colors but I don't think they cut many below .75ct. But they often carry L, M or Os that are cut beautifully. (Winfields carries their stones)


http://www.craftedbyinfinity.com/index.php?pid=41〈=eng

 

[WinkHPD]

Date: 1/5/2009 9:08:39 PM
Author:snuggles1
Where are good places to get L and warmer colored diamonds? I''ve seen some on Good Old Gold and Winfields. Also, do vendors sell stones in this color grade that are 0.50ct and below that are H&A? Thanks!

Call your vendor of choice and ask. They may not have them in stock, but they can usually source them for you.

Wink

 

[snuggles1]

Great! Thanks swingirl and wink! Also, a friend of mine might be looking for a stone in this color maybe around a 1.25-1.5. Does the color effect the amount of sparkle from the stone? Or does it sparkle just as much as a D or a G as long as it is well cut? I figured the latter, but I want to be sure. Are the sparkles different than a D or a G?

 

[MustangGal]

Mondera goes down to M, but they don''t have actual pictures of the stones, they''re just a drop shipper like Blue Nile.

 

[neatfreak]

Date: 1/6/2009 11:19:46 AM
Author: snuggles1
Great! Thanks swingirl and wink! Also, a friend of mine might be looking for a stone in this color maybe around a 1.25-1.5. Does the color effect the amount of sparkle from the stone? Or does it sparkle just as much as a D or a G as long as it is well cut? I figured the latter, but I want to be sure. Are the sparkles different than a D or a G?

The latter. The color is the difference, so the sparkles are different colors IMO, but they sparkle beautifully as long as they are well cut.

 

[Judah Gutwein]

"Sparkle" is influenced by cut.
"Color" is influenced by "color"

 

[snuggles1]

Date: 1/6/2009 1:04:02 PM
Author: neatfreak

Date: 1/6/2009 11:19:46 AM

Author: snuggles1

Great! Thanks swingirl and wink! Also, a friend of mine might be looking for a stone in this color maybe around a 1.25-1.5. Does the color effect the amount of sparkle from the stone? Or does it sparkle just as much as a D or a G as long as it is well cut? I figured the latter, but I want to be sure. Are the sparkles different than a D or a G?

The latter. The color is the difference, so the sparkles are different colors IMO, but they sparkle beautifully as long as they are well cut.

What colors are the sparkles? So then, if colors are from white light, then what colors come from yellow light? I''m so curious to see what they look like!

 

[neatfreak]

Date: 1/6/2009 1:25:21 PM
Author: snuggles1

Date: 1/6/2009 1:04:02 PM

Author: neatfreak

Date: 1/6/2009 11:19:46 AM


Author: snuggles1


Great! Thanks swingirl and wink! Also, a friend of mine might be looking for a stone in this color maybe around a 1.25-1.5. Does the color effect the amount of sparkle from the stone? Or does it sparkle just as much as a D or a G as long as it is well cut? I figured the latter, but I want to be sure. Are the sparkles different than a D or a G?

The latter. The color is the difference, so the sparkles are different colors IMO, but they sparkle beautifully as long as they are well cut.

What colors are the sparkles? So then, if colors are from white light, then what colors come from yellow light? I''m so curious to see what they look like!

Just a warmer tone. I think of it like different kinds of lightbulbs. The "outside" light ones shed a different tone light than the fluorescent ones but they are still light.

 

[tophatxj]

What letter color would a pink be? Is that possible?

 

[snuggles1]

Date: 1/6/2009 1:53:26 PM
Author: tophatxj
What letter color would a pink be? Is that possible?

I believe a pink is considered a "fancy" color.

On a side note for everyone, what is the lowest "warm white" on the "D-Z" scale? I keep looking at the Q on Good Old Gold's website and thinking that it's a beauty, but at what point is it considered a yellow diamond?

ETA. And then isn't yellow considered "fancy"?

 

[WinkHPD]

Date: 1/6/2009 2:05:06 PM
Author: snuggles1

Date: 1/6/2009 1:53:26 PM
Author: tophatxj
What letter color would a pink be? Is that possible?

I believe a pink is considered a ''fancy'' color.

On a side note for everyone, what is the lowest ''warm white'' on the ''D-Z'' scale? I keep looking at the Q on Good Old Gold''s website and thinking that it''s a beauty, but at what point is it considered a yellow diamond?

ETA. And then isn''t yellow considered ''fancy''?

It used to be that anything darker than a Z was considered a fancy. I am not sure where the line is drawn now or if it is still at Z since I rarely deal in the fancy colored diamonds.

As for what color the sparkles are.

I have found that you tend to see more dispersion in the warmer colored diamonds as the dispersive colors seem to stand out more against the faint yellow background. So while the actual size and quality of the dispersion might be equal to that in another identically cut stone of higher color, the visual effect is like getting a brighter blast of dispersion. This is my observation and the observation of many in the trade that I have discussed this with, but to the best of my knowledge there has not yet been any formal study of this done and I am not stating it as a matter of fact, only as a matter of my personal observation.

Wink

 

[anne_h]

I have noticed the same as Wink, although mostly in photos.

A.

 

[LGK]

As a fan of warmer colors, I too think that the dispersion just stands out more or something... I can't imagine there's actually *more* fire, but it somehow looks that way... (Especially the big chunks of fire off antique cuts in warmer colors!)

Maybe the white light return is less icy-white so it doesn't blot out the dispersion?

 

[glitterata]

I''ve been wondering about the very low but not quite fancy colors: R, S, T, U, V, W, X, Y, Z. I never see them advertised for sale. Occasionally you see an O or a P or even a Q, but not lower.

Is that because rough is those colors is very rare, or because jewelers think nobody would want to buy them?

I can imagine them being attractive, especially with colored stones or set in (say) high carat yellow gold, or maybe rose gold. But I don''t believe I''ve ever seen one in person.

Is there a sort of grade inflation, so that what used to be called Z is now called Pale Yellow or something like that?

 

[swingirl]

I just asked that same question. It seems like R, S T U, etc are just as rare as D''s and E''s. Where are they if "fancy" starts after Z?

 

[rparker1998]

what she said..

Date: 1/6/2009 6:48:00 PM
Author: swingirl
I just asked that same question. It seems like R, S T U, etc are just as rare as D''s and E''s. Where are they if ''fancy'' starts after Z?

 

[John P]

Date: 1/6/2009 6:42:42 PM
Author: glitterata

I've been wondering about the very low but not quite fancy colors: R, S, T, U, V, W, X, Y, Z. I never see them advertised for sale. Occasionally you see an O or a P or even a Q, but not lower.

Is that because rough is those colors is very rare, or because jewelers think nobody would want to buy them?

It's a great question... And I love it when you guys wander into an area of intrigue.

First, let's remember that D-Z colors are graded from the side...but fancy colors are graded face-up.

Now pretend you’re a diamond cutter. You have a nice piece of rough you know will surely get R-S from the lab if graded from the side, regardless of how it would appear from the top if cut for top light return. OR...you can go the other way and cut the rough so that it intentionally entraps body color (often accomplished with shallower or steeper angles or pavilion brillianteering variations). If you do this you can submit it to the lab as a fancy color and hope for the FLY grade (fancy light yellow). A fancy diamond is often easier to sell than S-Z.

In another example a clever cutter can take rough that would grade in the middle D-Z scale, cut it into a radiant shape and perhaps even get intense yellow from the lab. A friend who taught courses at GIA used to see that happen.

And that is why you may not find so many candidates in the cape colors. They may be fancy grades in disguise...which is why it's critical to see the stone, preferably with some experience or expertise to help you, when you're shopping for fancies.

Again, it’s an area of intrigue. Are such strategies “cheating?” Or are they innovative? After all, someone who can manipulate cut design so inclusions don’t show in an I1 is a genius. Should someone who can manipulate cut so an M shows far less color, or an S shows far more, be treated differently?

Old timers will tell you things have changed over the years; it used to be harder to get those fancy grades than it is today. And old and new timers alike will criticize the “how” of color grading...and for good reason...different rules for a diamond depending on how it is submitted does seem wonky…and don’t even get us started on widespread afflictions like strictness differences between labs or technical differences in UV control and lighting in lab environments.

There have been some good discussions about this here, at trade gatherings (even at wedding receptions).

But regardless of debate, I love the fact that all of this just proves the importance, impact and general coolness of CUT yet again... Long live the King!

 

[swingirl]

Thanks for the explanation.

 

[glitterata]

Yes, that was fascinating, John!

 

[coatimundi_org]

Date: 1/7/2009 12:34:39 AM
Author: John Pollard

Date: 1/6/2009 6:42:42 PM

Author: glitterata


I've been wondering about the very low but not quite fancy colors: R, S, T, U, V, W, X, Y, Z. I never see them advertised for sale. Occasionally you see an O or a P or even a Q, but not lower.


Is that because rough is those colors is very rare, or because jewelers think nobody would want to buy them?

It's a great question... And I love it when you guys wander into an area of intrigue.

First, let's remember that D-Z colors are graded from the side...but fancy colors are graded face-up.


Now pretend you’re a diamond cutter. You have a nice piece of rough you know will surely get R-S from the lab if graded from the side, regardless of how it would appear from the top if cut for top light return. OR...you can go the other way and cut the rough so that it intentionally entraps body color (often accomplished with shallower or steeper angles or pavilion brillianteering variations). If you do this you can submit it to the lab as a fancy color and hope for the FLY grade (fancy light yellow). A fancy diamond is often easier to sell than S-Z.


In another example a clever cutter can take rough that would grade in the middle D-Z scale, cut it into a radiant shape and perhaps even get intense yellow from the lab. A friend who taught courses at GIA used to see that happen.


And that is why you may not find so many candidates in the cape colors. They may be fancy grades in disguise...which is why it's critical to see the stone, preferably with some experience or expertise to help you, when you're shopping for fancies.


Again, it’s an area of intrigue. Are such strategies “cheating?” Or are they innovative? After all, someone who can manipulate cut design so inclusions don’t show in an I1 is a genius. Should someone who can manipulate cut so an M shows far less color, or an S shows far more, be treated differently?


Old timers will tell you things have changed over the years; it used to be harder to get those fancy grades than it is today. And old and new timers alike will criticize the “how” of color grading...and for good reason...different rules for a diamond depending on how it is submitted does seem wonky…and don’t even get us started on widespread afflictions like strictness differences between labs or technical differences in UV control and lighting in lab environments.


There have been some good discussions about this here, at trade gatherings (even at wedding receptions).

But regardless of debate, I love the fact that all of this just proves the importance, impact and general coolness of CUT yet again... Long live the King!

Hi John--thanks for this great post! Explains a lot to me. When I was in diamond grading lab class S-Z were inordinately tricky. I'd want to call them fancy, but the lab sheets put them in the normal color range. I'd think this, because face up--they'd be saturated--and after looking at so many all day, my eyes would deceive me on the pavilion view. I finally accepted the saturation levels, and could assess the color in the end, but it took a lot of practice!

 

[Mrs Mitchell]

I got an M coloured stone from Diamonds by Lauren and I''m a big fan. It''s one of the most beautiful diamonds I''ve seen in real life. David often carries warmer stones, as well as S, T, U, V etc stones. Might be worth a look?

Jen

 

[EricaR]

Fascinating post, John. Thank you so much!

 

[John P]

My pleasure! I love this stuff.

Date: 1/7/2009 12:02:52 PM
Author: coatimundi

Hi John--thanks for this great post! Explains a lot to me. When I was in diamond grading lab class S-Z were inordinately tricky. I''d want to call them fancy, but the lab sheets put them in the normal color range. I''d think this, because face up--they''d be saturated--and after looking at so many all day, my eyes would deceive me on the pavilion view. I finally accepted the saturation levels, and could assess the color in the end, but it took a lot of practice!

Sounds familiar Coati. Did they throw anything under M at you in the final DG lab exams? None here. We had light capes in the "round robin" grading. And I agree, best strategy is to force yourself to focus on pavilion view to the exclusion of all else when getting first impressions.

 

[Gypsy]

Date: 1/7/2009 11:35:42 AM
Author: glitterata
Yes, that was fascinating, John!

EXTREMELY. I''ve wondered if that was the case. I REALLY wanted a yellow diamond when we were looking at engagement rings and looked at a few and the wide range of color really surprised me (don''t know why), then when (years later) I learned on here that radiants can trap color it made me recall all of the radiants we saw when we were shopping....

COOL BEANS DUDE!

 

[stepcutnut]

I have also purchased an N colored cushion, U-V colored EC and W-X colored radiant from Diamondsbylauren.com, David is great to work with and has some lovely lower colored/warmer stones.

 

[Upgradable]

1.74 O IF from Good Old Gold

This one makes drool run down my chin!

 

[mausketeer]

Date: 1/6/2009 1:18:36 PM
Author: Judah Gutwein
'Sparkle' is influenced by cut.
'Color' is influenced by 'color'

Oh, I am SO glad I found this thread! So there are now, what THREE of us actively looking for lower coloured stones? I hope the trade is paying attention! It was on the Faye Cullen website that I realized I LOVED the lower grades. I'd see a ring and go "Oh, what is THAT?" and it would be an O or a P, not a fancy colour.

EDIT: I neglected to say why I included Mr. Gutwein's quote, it's because I know that Excel carries lower than M grade stones and I am looking at a few on their website but not sure how to find one in a colour I'm looking for.....

Question for the experts please: so if it's only the INTENSITY of the colour that causes a stone to be labelled either a fancy or being an R through Z grade, is it possible to find a very light coloured stone in a colour other than yellow in these grades?

 

[mausketeer]

Date: 1/8/2009 8:59:06 AM
Author: stepcutnut
I have also purchased an N colored cushion, U-V colored EC and W-X colored radiant from Diamondsbylauren.com, David is great to work with and has some lovely lower colored/warmer stones.

Oh please post photos if you have them! I am dying to see what a UV and WX look like!!!

 

[coatimundi_org]

Date: 1/8/2009 12:35:49 AM
Author: John Pollard
My pleasure! I love this stuff.

Date: 1/7/2009 12:02:52 PM

Author: coatimundi


Hi John--thanks for this great post! Explains a lot to me. When I was in diamond grading lab class S-Z were inordinately tricky. I'd want to call them fancy, but the lab sheets put them in the normal color range. I'd think this, because face up--they'd be saturated--and after looking at so many all day, my eyes would deceive me on the pavilion view. I finally accepted the saturation levels, and could assess the color in the end, but it took a lot of practice!

Sounds familiar Coati. Did they throw anything under M at you in the final DG lab exams? None here. We had light capes in the 'round robin' grading. And I agree, best strategy is to force yourself to focus on pavilion view to the exclusion of all else when getting first impressions.

Nah--nothing below M--thankfully--haha. You know how many points you could loose on color on the 5 stone!

And with 30pointers and under, it's doubly difficult.

Date: 1/8/2009 11:39:14 AM
Author: mausketeer

Question for the experts please: so if it's only the INTENSITY of the colour that causes a stone to be labelled either a fancy or being an R through Z grade, is it possible to find a very light coloured stone in a colour other than yellow in these grades?

mausketeer

Here's some info about GIA Color Grading.

--Yellow Color--to be deemed "fancy yellow" color starts beyond Z in the normal color range (D-Z). K-L-M are considered Faint Yellow, but they are not fancies. Same for N-R (Very Light Yellow) and S-Z (Light Yellow).

--Browns are a bit different. Brown diamonds (within D-Z) darker than K color get a word modifier. Faint Brown for K - M, Very Light Brown for N - R, Light Brown for S - Z.

--Greys with color equal to or greater than K are graded in the fancy color system, as Faint Grey, Light Grey etc. with no letter grade.

--All other colors are graded in the fancy color system depending on hue and intensity.