Jeweler of Choice - a New Project (beta)

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

No store front can survive on 10% margin F&I.
The reason so many (even with high mark-ups) can not get a good credit rating is because it is not a good business to be in - it is stock intensive, invloves trying to employ good people and many good people do not want to be sales assistants.

Think about not yourself - but your firends - what would they be prepared to spend.

Go look at margins - Leonid looked up some the other day - even Walmart cash and carry make over 20%, and they are the lowest of the low.
Tiffany make about 130%.

 

[fire&ice]

Yeah, I threw out the 10% b/c prior to really thinking. For brokering, that's about what I receive. But, it is adjusted up or down depending upon final costs. Making 10% on a lower priced item isn't worth my time; but, making 10% on a 50k item *is* worth my time & expertise - especially since I don't have any carrying or opportunity costs.

Now, if I own the item, I would expect my full markup. Consignments sell at about 20-35% commission.

So, somewhere in the middle I suppose. Auction houses charge 17% buyer's premium. I think when you talk much over 20-25%, I wouldn't bite. I'll ask my friends. But, I know they would probably figure - "how much am I going to save" by going this route. I think I would look at the Costco/Sam's business model for pricing.

Ultimately, I think it depends how one is set up. A sole proprietor who can do this once a week on appointment, I'd take the extra cash for a little show & tell if I don't incur any costs.

 

[pricescope]

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On 10/6/2004 6:00:20 PM Garry H (Cut Nut) wrote:

Go look at margins - Leonid looked up some the other day - even Walmart cash and carry make over 20%, and they are the lowest of the low.
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Some public data. SG&A is selling, general and administrative expenses.

Tiffany & Co.
RESULTS OF OPERATIONS Certain operating data as a percentage of n f et sales were as follows:
2003 2002 2001 Net sales 100.0% 100.0% 100.0%
Cost of sales 42.1% 40.7 41.3
Gross profit: 57.9% 59.3 58.7.
SG&A 40.1% 40.6 39.4
Earnings from operations 17.8% 18.7 19.3
Interest, financing and g other (income) expenses, net 0.7 1.2 1.3
Earnings before income taxes 17.1% 17.5 18.0
Provision for f income taxes 6.3% 6.4 7.2
Net earnings 10.8% 11.1% 10.8% TIFFANY & CO. AND SUBSIDIARIES

Neiman Marcus
Fiscal year | Gross Margin | SG&A:
2003 | 33.1% | 25.9%

JCPenney
Fiscal year | Gross Margin | SG&A:
2003 | 37.2% | 32.8%
2002 | 35.9% | 32.0%

Sears
Fiscal year | Gross Margin | SG&A:
2003 | 27.9% | 22.2%
2002 | 28.2% | 22.4%

Wal-Mart 2004 annual report
Fiscal year | Gross Margin | SG&A:
2003 | 22.3% | 17.4%
2004 | 22.5% | 17.5%

 

[noobie]

Interesting data leonid

Something looks wacky with the JC Penney data. They must include different items in cost of goods sold and SG&A. SG&A looks way high as does gross margin when compared to Sears and Walmart. They must count something in SG&A that the others count in COGS.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Now you are thinking from both sides of the fence F&I (you have a good brain - but you were using it for WIIFM before

Would someone who is good at math work out what those gross margins are in mark up on Leonids #'s?
Very diferent figures.
Are we going to talk mark up or GP?

 

[yowahking]

Here is where I risk pissing off jewelers and vendors. I try to help jewelers every day who are crying about business being down because of economy, fair in town, internet, etc. I tell them to be creative. Find a way to get a customer happy with something that is very comparable and hope that they stay as a customer and long term business works better than short term. In many cities, mine included, jewelers have become lazy shoppers, buying everything from a couple sources, putting "x" markup on it and maybe allowing some play. They often complain about spending time with a customer who at the end wanted the jeweler to work on $500 profit on a $7000 cost stone. My response is that you spent 3 hours with them and turned away $500 and now have 000 for your time invested and someone that they do not know gets the $500. I work hard to develop items that no one can compare with, then I can make some profit that is deserved for design or time spent in foreign lands. I will take $50 over cost on watch that my customer finds somewhere because I can order it again the next day. On a gem where I have the only one in the state, I will be fair but not give it away.
Now for the suppliers, they have dug their own grave. When times are tough, they offer long terms to entice buys. If a jeweler does not have the cash now, he may not have it in 90days. Second problem is that suppliers often play both sides of the fence, offering the same price to a jeweler than to someone who calls them in the phone book that is a consumer. I set up a supplier with a phony customer to prove it and they lost $200,000 a year with me over $1000 1/2 ct stone. There are no shortage of places to buy a diamond if you know how and where to look as a jeweler. (exceptions of 8* and similar). I think only about 20% of the jewelers would be interested in your program, which is probably the most of who will be around 10 years from now anyway. The times are changing, and this is one way to find the happy medium of customers who like their local guy but spend the time to shop. My concern is that it turns into a way that the suppliers who are not selling at real wholesale get some easy sales because they are more tech savy than old world dealers. Time will weed out the best of both internet and jewelers.

 

[pricescope]

Fire&Ice

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Isn't this concept already floating on the internet?
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Yes, similar concept was implemented by one of the wholesalers for their own inventory. In our case there are much more diamonds available from different vendors and Pricescope role would be just providing searching tools for the listed diamonds and B&M jewelers (plus some additional features such as consumers' feedback systems, etc).

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Bump

No one cares how much diamonds cost?

 

[noobie]

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On 10/7/2004 9:34:40 PM Garry H (Cut Nut) wrote:





Bump

No one cares how much diamonds cost?
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I'm probably as bad at math as you are Garry

, but here goes:

Tiffany Mark-up

2001 - 142%

2002 - 146%

2003 - 138%

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Thanks Noobie.

I just read Leonid's post properly. Lets look at the highest and lowest.

SG&A is selling, general and administrative expenses.
Tiffany Gross profit: 57.9%
SG&A 40.1%
So $17.80 in every $100 of a sale is the profit.

Wal-Mart Gross Margin | SG&A:
2003 | 22.3% | 17.4%
So only $4.90 in every $100 is profit.

Most jewellery retailers would be inbetween these #'s

Now I guess what we are offering retailers with this system is "marginal additional sales".

That is they lower my SG&A by virtue of raising my sales and total Gross Profit.

And I would expect because of my high level of service, to be able to keep doing business with these people for many years to come.

 

[Mara]

I don't know if its the "beta" part but Al and I were fooling around with it tonite online and we got different search results for the exact same search..and if we were doing something differently, we could not tell what. We got entirely different sets of stones, using my zip code and similar search paramters. ??




Also, I found a stone on JOC and tried to find it on the Pscope web search and it did not come up. Are these stones from another source other than the typical virtual database? Very curious!! I would have thought that if a stone came up for a local jeweler to call in, then a web vendor would be able to call it in too, aka like a WhiteFlash who does deal in both virtual and in-house stones? But it did not come up on Pscope regular search, only JOC and only in my zip (not Al's).




Lastly, I looked through the local list and was pleased to see two names I recognize and frequent, Willow Glen Diamond Co and Joe Escobar. The rest out of 20, I was not familiar with....but at least there are two there that I know I've been to and like!




Kudos Leo, I love this new project.

Esp since I found a stone that looks intereestttingg...*drool*.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Thanks Mara - I am sure Leonid will read this and track doen any problems.

It is quite likely that some stones will from wholsalers and cutters who do not allow their stones to be uploaded by e-tailers - so yes - would'nt it be great to have even more stones to select from

 

[hoorray]

I think you are right Garry. If local jewelers can sell a new client a great stone at a competitive price, suddenly they are competitive with the online vendors, AND, they are local. Give some good, local, service and support, and that's huge.

There are tradeoffs in local versus online. Currently in the US, online has the benefit of no sales tax, but there is a shipping overhead. (and, the sales tax benefit probably won't last.) Local vendors, in general, currently offer less choice, especially of higher quality goods, or they are significantly higher priced. If you put the local vendors on equal footing with the onine vendors in price, selection, and quality, and you give them the local benefit of being able to service customers on all their local needs, let the view stones first hand, etc., they have the upper hand again. They still are having to bring stones in rather than having them in store to begin with, which isn't as ideal, but it lets them play in the new market competitively again, and we're talking about customers they probably wouldn't have had otherwise. Maybe in the long run it pushes the local B&Ms to simply carry a higher quality product so that they have the stones in house to begin with, that's not a bad thing. In the meantime, it probabaly helps everyone.

 

[Todd07]

To answer an earlier question as a newbie, I'd be willing to pay a 15% mark up over internet pricing but no more. Since internet pricing already includes a margin for the internet dealer I'm guessing the B&M might get 20% margin on the diamond?


This margin is alot better than 0% on the diamond a B&M gets when I buy off the internet and bring it in just for setting.




If PS is trying to ballpark pricing with this great tool, why not use a fixed amount plus a %? The fixed amount protects the B&M on cheaper stones but allows them to remain competitive on the more expensive stones. The below number are just to show the logic.




1,000 wholesale price


200 fixed adder


150 15% adder


$1,350 price to joe consumer


26% Gross Margin for B&M




10,000 wholesale price


200 fixed adder


1,500 15% adder


11,700 price to joe consumer


15% Gross Margin for B&M

 

[yowahking]

I like the logic, of the margin examples. I just do not agree with the assumption that "internet" pricing is automatically less than stores can be at. I am a fan of a new system that links consumers to someone in their area who chooses to compete for pricing, service, quality, etc. Not so sure about setting up a % that is set, as if the supplier price is a constant. Last check my supplier base is 70 active sources. I use a few of them most often, but no one has everything. No one has the best deals all of the time. There was a system a couple years ago where the internet "dealer" sent you a customer and a stone to your store. If the customer selected the mailed stone, you got 15%. Quickly, all of us involved figured out that we were better off selling our own stone for less money and paying the internet dealer the 5% referal fee and the customer got a better deal. I would avoid the pitfall of seeing a system like that again. Open to more discussion about how it could work the best.

 

[aljdewey]

The question I would like some feedback on is 'how much more would you be prepared to pay to shop at a B&M store? Answers should be with the newbie mindset in mind - not you pro's.

I'd answer this by saying "not much more". When I was new here, if it had been a difference of $50, that wouldn't have dissuaded me from B&M stores. But when the different was hundreds of dollars.....well, that's not worth it to me. When we were shopping for my stone, my local jeweler brought in a .93, H, SI1 stone....asking price $4500. I had already found online a 1.06 I, SI1 for $3800 (which I didn't end up going with, but for basis of comparison it's relevant). That's a significant difference.

The other retailer concern is that you guys go into jewelers and demand Sarin reports - ha ha ha - they hate serving you smarty pants nerdy know-it-alls, and honestly, as a retailer, you can be a pain in the butt at times.

But if this model worked as Dave suggested....that retailers provide OGI/Sarin up front, that removes a lot of the "pain in the butt" factor. Of course we are a "pain in the butt" presently....we're asking for information they don't have/can't provide, and the only way to sell against that today is to dispute the relevance of the information being requested. Instead of getting into such debates, simply provide the data requested but continue to emphasize the importance of what your eyes see when you compare diamonds.

Here is a quote 'I think that those who do try and operate with the 'low-no' margin model will be sorely surprised that the 'internet' customer is no easier to deal with than the one standing in front of you'

I think this comment has some validity. As Jim from DCD has noted, his margins are so slim that he cannot absorb the cost of a 2-hour face-to-face meeting while someone angsts over every facet of a diamond.

For my purposes, I think this model could work extremely well. I tend to favor the eyeclean SI2 stones, and this would allow me to see them myself. (It shouldn't take two hours for me to determine the stone is in fact eyeclean. /idealbb/images/smilies/2.gif&nbsp

. If all the relevant cut information was available to me up front (including crown/pav, fluor, dimensions, table, depth, etc. etc.), I could easily narrow down my criteria and then I would be a relatively simple retail customer......come in and pick the one my eye likes more....no worries. That shouldn't be a difficult process.

 

[denverappraiser]

I’m still very uncomfortable about the idea of listing a ‘suggested’ price that the retailer is expected to work from. If it’s higher than the main PS engine prices for similar stones, the customers will assume that the local stores are, by definition, more expensive than the online stores. If it’s comparable or lower, some of the stores will be unwilling to make the deal and the whole point evaporates. Either way we’ve misled the customer. Even prices on a particular stone at a particular store can vary depending on what else is involved in the deal. Stores can give discounts to certain customers, they can add ‘warranties’ and similar services etc. Posting a MSRP is the way several other industries handle this but it doesn’t really seem like it would suit the Pricescope customer base. I don’t really have a solution because I think this is basically a good idea. The local retailers need this and it’s a benefit to consumers as well. It may even make a buck for Leonid through the retailer membership fees ($1.25 Canadian). Everybody wins.

Neil Beaty, GG ISA
Independent Appraisals in Denver

 

[fire&ice]

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On 10/9/2004 9:50:41 AM denverappraiser wrote:

I’m still very uncomfortable about the idea of listing a ‘suggested’ price that the retailer is expected to work from. If it’s higher than the main PS engine prices for similar stones, the customers will assume that the local stores are, by definition, more expensive than the online stores. a>
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Yes, but this *assumes* that one will give the internet a shot. I spoke to a savy shopper friend, who happens to be a diamond/jewelry nut, she was adamant that under no circumstances would she buy a diamond site unseen over the internet regardless of price. For her demographic, she thought I was the exception rather than the rule (being that I wouldn't have a problem w/ purchasing over the net). I believe Leonid quoted a stat that of diamond e-rings 95% are still purchased at storefronts.

Though, she seems to want her cake & eat it too. Imagine! She felt that 10% was plenty enough profit. She said "what is he really doing for that?" Calling in a stone that he doesn't own & showing it to me. I said 'you assume that the sale is emminent.' - which is not the case. The jeweler's time is wasted & costs absorbed. She thought that a valid point; but, really had no movement on price. I said "you paid a premium for using a jeweler you felt comfortable with." Yeah, but x jeweler's had a setting not as nice for much more than I paid. I didn't point out that she paid about a 35% premium over anything on the net. Great end product custom job though.

My conclusions with this frustrating conversation. Set the price of the stone as the consumer sees it on-line. Build enough profit to make it worth while for jewelers. What that is - don't know. Suppliers must adhere to their selling price as well.

Keep in mind that these days the setting are where the money is at. And, as a retailer, I would think getting people in the door to sell more profitable goods would be an end result. At the end of the day, I would view it as cheap marketing & a quick way to make a buck. A way to increase sales as opposed to competeing w/ sales.

 

[Kaili]

I'm sure I'm in the minority, but if no price or ballpark of price was listed on the stone, but I could get prices and specs from the online retailers, I wouldn't bother calling in the diamonds. I personally want everything up front before I get interested in a stone. If it is not in my price range, I don't want to invest the time.
Not listing prices makes me feel like I'm going to have to deal with the haggling or hard sell on the stone when I call. I went round and round in circles with several B&M stores that didn't have or want to give me exact specs and as we talked prices changed. It felt like buying a used car. I hate that feeling!
I want to be clear that I'm not slamming B&M's. That was just my experience. After reading posts from B&M stores here on PS, I know that not everyone is like that, but I would only find out by going through the trial and error process with perhaps several different vendors.
Just my 2 cents.

 

[Mara]

Fey...customers can do what you noted right now. There is nothing to stop people from calling in a stone to a local jeweler who is part of the virtual network, seeing the stone, nixing it, having the jeweler send it back to the wholesaler, then having your online vendor call it in and getting the savings. There's nothing new in this scenario, it's possible now. It's been discussed before as well.




Kaili, I agree with you, if I don't see prices, I won't bother. I need to see all the info up front so that I can make my own comparisons and do research on my back-end and then when I am serious, I contact the vendor. I don't want to waste anyone's time getting pricing if I am just doing preliminary research, and also then chances are the vendor will do follow-up phone calls that I will need to fend off until I know which stone is in the final running. Waste of everyone's time in my opinion.

 

[denverappraiser]

I almost hate to bring this up but how about this:

Allow the jeweler to set his own markup on the screen where they create and updates their record. Allow different markups for different kinds of stones. If they want to stick with extremely high markups, let them. They can explain on their own website why they disserve it. List a MSRP on the first screen so that customers have an idea of which stones to look at and then list an ‘actual’ price on the display of jewelers in the neighborhood on the next screen. Display the list of jewelers in order of the price for that particular stone.

By the way, I would change the name on the button for ‘call in the stone’ as well. Only the jeweler can do this and they may or may not be willing. ‘Choose a jeweler’ seems more appropriate.

Neil Beaty, GG ISA
Independent Appraisals in Denver

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Thanks for the greta discussion folks - keep it coming.

Aldjeway wrote this:
Here is a quote 'I think that those who do try and operate with the 'low-no' margin model will be sorely surprised that the 'internet' customer is no easier to deal with than the one standing in front of you'
I think this comment has some validity. As Jim from DCD has noted, his margins are so slim that he cannot absorb the cost of a 2-hour face-to-face meeting while someone angsts over every facet of a diamond.

That certainly sums up the problem.
As for the people who would call a stone in and go back and buy it online - such people exist, but I personally believe in people and think that such scum bags are definetely in the minority; they would also go to WC and slip out the back door without leaving a tip. Sooner or later these people, if they have any standing in their local community, are caught out. God works in mysterious ways.

But back to Jim's solution to his problem - I think this answers a comment made by Fire & Ice - she does not need hours to make an SI2 call - but F&I I bet you $100 that you are not known as being slow and indecisive among your friends

.
(Gee - better make that $100 of Ideal-scope product in case i loose the bet

).

From my own experiance I can point to some customers who have bought diamonds on-line who, frankly, I would think the Internet vendor has made a loss on after accounting for "owners salary"

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Steve what % of your custom work is done for locals compared to on-line never meet people?

If you are like us it is 99% local.

The site you mentioned has what number of Diamond Buyers hitting it? Pricescope has huge numbers - I think Leonid would kill me if I even hinted.

And it will be interesting to watch Mara's quiz. Remeber that most of the voters will be died-in-the-xxxx Internet Junkies. Most of the retailer "target" customers would never even register and post on Pricescope. They are lurking and watching and reading

(ohoh what a scarey thought - get away you vouyers).

 

[denverappraiser]

I pretty much side with Steve (as usually seems to be the case

). I don't think I would participate as a retailer. If I was a retailer and I wanted to persue this kind of business, I would dive directly into the main pricescope database and become one of the listed sellers. This way you can list the stones that you own and on which you can be competitive as well as this kind of virtual inventory. That pricewatch.com model pretty much guarantees that there won't be enough margin to offer the kinds of services that customers expect from a quality b&m retailer. The very reasons that people prefer to shop at a local store will evaporate.

Neil Beaty, GG ISA
Independent Appraisals in Denver

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

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On 10/9/2004 7:49:50 PM denverappraiser wrote:

I pretty much side with Steve (as usually seems to be the case

). I don't think I would participate as a retailer. If I was a retailer and I wanted to persue this kind of business, I would dive directly into the main pricescope database and become one of the listed sellers. This way you can list the stones that you own and on which you can be competitive as well as this kind of virtual inventory. That pricewatch.com model pretty much guarantees that there won't be enough margin to offer the kinds of services that customers expect from a quality b&m retailer. The very reasons that people prefer to shop at a local store will evaporate.

Neil Beaty, GG ISA
Independent Appraisals in Denver----------------

If we retailers "dive in" with our existing inventory we will be offering goods we paid for instore at one price, and to compete on-line, at a significantly lower price.
No no no Neil!
And then you change the nature of your staffing - to people who are happy to sit on a computer and telephone all day.
No no no!
What I like about this new JoC model is that I can gain new local customers who might not have found their way to me.

And they will be served by my lovely people who give the best face to face service in the business. I mean the best!
They do not want to spend time on the phone though. They are people people.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Steve I do not get you?

The only other stores a consumer is going to compare you to are the local stores in your area.
Do a search and tick the box for a stone, and tell us how many come up now - and then imagine how many will come up after the 4000 across USA that are currently listed have been dropped from the free ride pilot study.
If we end up with 1,000 across all USA then people may only find 1 or 2 stores in their local area unless they live in NYC etc.

And you will have far more people from your local area finding their way to your store because of Pricescopes huge traffic - far more than your own website could ever attract.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

And the better established and better the reputation of the local store - the more likely the customer is going to come to you over some pawn shop

(I think Leonid has taken out every listing that includes Pawn, loan etc)

 

[pricescope]

Feydakin:

----------------
.. I don't see it benefiting a B&M in any meaningful way.. Especially when the results get listed in price (which makes sense).. People will see the same stones at different prices and just buy the cheapest one..
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Steve, we already tried to explain it: 60%-70% of consumers research the diamonds and prices online. They know the prices anyway. Still 95% of them prefer to buy locally even if it cost more.

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We are far more likely, and intend to when the our new website is complete, to simply become a banner advertiser and let our custom work sell itself for us

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Banners are not very effective and costly. Did you try to advertise on Google or Overture/Yahoo? Besides, there are quite a few other jewelers who advertise online. ..but I'm sure you know better what you are doing.

 

[valeria101]

You say: (Leonid) “Pricescope role would be just providing searching tools for the listed diamonds and B&M jewelers (plus some additional features such as consumers' feedback systems, etc). “

But... PS already has already built an established feedback environment. Why not take advantage of what makes it valuable as is ? Here goes three points:

First: PS already has buyers’ references integrated…

Related post: (Lop)... listing jewelers without references or reviews to me is like listing restaurants without a review...
(Leonid) Absolutely! Eventually {reviews] will be integrated with a review / forum system.

​

PS does reviews beautifully – the present format makes them useful since readers relate to the background of feedbacks. You would not want to turn PS into EBay, right ?

There are threads already about jewelers and some started as questions “what do you know/ think of X and Y?”. So no starting point is needed – just better exposure and a special invitation to use this virtue of PS more, IMO.

Second: What makes PS feedback credible this far ?

Related Post:Garry wrote: […]There is a review option there but I'm not happy about it. It all should be improved...

​

Second that...

#1. – Why list automatic search results on the Beta page ?

The vast majority of automatic results are not relevant in a blatant way. This does not look great to me, and does take up lots of screen. I love that blank Google interface… could we see one of the like here?

#2. – Why ask for a review on the jeweler separately from the forums?

PS is that much more credible and welcoming just because postings mix and match.

Solution: just one button with “post your impressions on PS” (or something). A search should reveal relevant threads anyway, without asking for a review per se.

Why so ? Buyer’s feedback already has a reputation of redundancy on auctions sites. The credibility of such reviews becomes very marginal indeed as soon as sellers can edit the site. Even EBay avoids this!

You may well restrict seller’s access and announce this for all to see, but the taste of innocence would be gone far away – EBay style.

Why mix all posts in one pot ? Why not emphasize the rare quality of PS as a true mediator between buyers and sellers ? Refraining to classify reviews leaves the timing and purpose of the posting for the buyer to choose. And makes reviews candid... Now, buyers' reviews come along with proposal and engagement chatter. Each can read between the lines and listen to that gut feeling in the process. As long as there is more to the talk than diamonds, why doubt sincerity to begin with? You can't really relate to an EBay feedback line.

Accordingly, “Show me the ring” sounds better than “review the seller”

So, why chatter makes feedback credible: Neither party should be able to interfere with PS’s rating or “profile” of a seller. Michelin’s word is worth more than BBB’s. As long as feedback bits are not traceable (a classifieds section makes them immediately linked to the transaction and thus traceable) – they sound as impartial as anything.

Ideally, there should be no doubt that the presence of sellers on the forum does influence directly the postings of any buyer or the other way around. As far as I understand such issues, PS joggles this gracefully now. It’s been great to watch so far.

Third: how easy is to check a local jeweler?

Your invitation for buyers to nominate jewelers reads “ we will review the business in 24 hours”. Why give the time? It just makes me wander what on Earth can you do about it on such short notice. Unless this is based on some widely accepted norm I am not aware of… of course.

You mention that this check is not one of financial status only. This is good to say upfront. But then, why not think “Michelin” instead on BBB ? There is allot in the design alone… I know this sounds a bit funny, but I can dream, can’t /idealbb/images/smilies/9.gif

 

[fire&ice]

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On 10/9/2004 8:55:46 PM Garry H (Cut Nut) wrote:

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What I like about this new JoC model is that I can gain new local customers who might not have found their way to me.

-------

Precisely my point as well, Steve. Granted one makes money on a stone - but isn't the *real* benefit for the long term is to attract new clients? Then sell them your services? I don't see the diamond purchase as the end result.

I'm a little confused. Wouldn't it be easier to have *one* set price? Everyone must adhere to that price. Taxes being the only thing not static. Unless you guys can't police yourself. That would be a sorry commentary.

And, I'm with Kali & Mara. No price. No use service. Most consumer's are like that. Only the very secure will ask for the price. Even I pass on items that aren't priced. It just takes so much effort & then you have to engage in conversation.

BTW, save about 3 or 4 stores, I would not hesitate to do business with any of the listed storefronts in my neighborhood. In fact, one on that list gets my money at least once a month!

And, yes Garry - you'd win the bet. I am very decisive. I have to be. Within seconds, I have to either raise my paddle or decide not to. But, I think one can angst just as much over the phone then sitting in front of you.