It''s fixed..sort of...

[decodelighted]

Afraid I''m in the minority here but I think the problems didn''t come from fixing the original problem (replacing one missing stone) ... I thought the problems came from the request to re-size the ring after the originally requested size didn''t please Allycat. I agree that there should have been more discussion about the risks of re-sizing before that was undertaken, but in such an intricate ring ... seems ripe for things to go awry. Both parties assume risk when changes like that are made AFTER the delivery of a custom piece. He was under no obligation to resize the ring, but (correct me if I''m wrong) did it as a courtesy while the ring was in for replacement of the stone. Just because one thing is wrong with a ring doesn''t meet you can then make unlimited changes and adjustments in the ring ever after.

Also, I don''t really see the flaws you''re talking about.

As much as I''m a fan of good customer service and artists taking pride in their work - there are some limits of liability & limits of "good faith" -- recasting and remaking the entire ring GRATIS because of a problem that happened during a complementary proceedure seems like a lot to ask for IMO.

That said - I hope the ring looks beautiful in person and does not need to be fixed further at all.

 

[Mara]

Al makes a good point...I think we forget that aren't Leon's rings hand-made? aka small nuances could be different from each one.

Anyway I think there are two questions that need to be answered here ...

1) Does Leon look at the ring and say yes you are right there is something wrong with the milgrain and it looks wrong but you still have to pay me to fix it?

or is it...

2) Well actually I need my 10x loupe to see that slight curve which is barely visible, but that is just the way it goes with hand-made custom items so unfortunately if you want it fixed you have to pay me?

Or is it some combo of those or quite possible he never really said that she has to pay the $4500 after all, I'm confused on that still anyway since it hasn't been answered as to what Leon really said or if there are just assumptions out on the table.

I think that if he is saying #1 then that is wrong and he should pay to fix something that he agrees looks bad or is wrong. But if it's #2 then he may have artistic license with the whole hand-made thing which does mean that it won't be perfect from everyone's sense of the word.

I guess in the end it's true what Al says re: people jumping on the bandwagon to say OH MY GOD that's horrible without having all the facts ( I did it too )...there are different versions of 'not acceptable'...aka melee falling out after having it a week is NOT ACCEPTABLE but maybe a slightly unique milgrain edge is more like hmm not sure if it's not acceptable.

Personally I like having a more unique aka different ring and I never would have thought to return my ring to the jeweler and said 'well this tiny little hole inside the ring isn't perfectly round, no one can see it but me..but can you fix it'...he would probably have shot me and hid the body.

But then again I wasn't happy with how it ended up being 2.9mm when he swore it would not be more than 2.5mm but again in the end it's kind of like..well hey it's custom.

 

[ForteKitty]

in the first picture, it's on the bottom of the right shank. In the second, the top of the left shank. However, I have the pickiest eyes and can spot VVS inclusions with a 10x loupe in less than 30 seconds.

edited to add... hmm, i see someone already caught that.

 

[jaz464]

I do agree with what aljdewey has to say. That is why I said the ring should be as perfect as is humanly possible. I compare this to my diamond. It's a VS2 and I would not want anything higher in clarity because the "flaws" kind of make it special, in my mind (even though I can't see them with a loupe, I know they are there). Anyway, I do think that if Leon was making this for his wife or daughter it would not look like this. All you can ask for is his best-and I don't think you got it. This might be someone else's best, but not Leon's.

 

[Demelza]

I think Mara makes a good point. I just sort of assumed that Leon was agreeing that there was something wrong if he said that the only way to fix it would be by remaking the ring. I also think people''s outrage is a response to a whole history surrounding this ring. It''s not just that the milgrain is a little crooked -- this comes on the heels of a lot of hassle and frustration for Ally. It would be bad enough if she lived in NY and had to be without her new ring for weeks, but the fact she has to travel to another country and risk having to pay duty on the ring -- well, that just sucks. I agree with Alj that there is a certain "risk" with custom that it won''t be perfectly uniform. That is partly why I have opted not to go the custom route. I had a couple of really bad experiences and I''m really picky when it comes to symmetry. It''s so hard to tell from those pictures whether the "damage" is bad enough to warrant a redo. I wouldn''t have noticed anything is wrong, but it''s also not my ring. It''s a tough call because I don''t imagine Ally would want to have the ring sent to her if it means sending it right back. Yucky situation, indeed!

 

[Kaleigh]

In many ways Leon has been put on a pedestal. We all have loved seeing his creations and have ooohed and ahhed over them. But there is a problem with this ring and it''s not ally''s fault. Leon should make it right for her. Yes custom rings have their problems, I lost a stone out of my asscher yesterday. But the ring was made very well and I knew that there was a possibility that this could happen. What I mean is when I got my ring there were no design flaws so to speak, it''s perfect. Ally''s should be too.

 

[VegasAngel]

Did Leon mention there was a possibility of damage or whatnot from resizing the ring? I would think depending on the setting he would know that. Just my opinion, but if I had a custom ring made and custom being the main word, I would expect it to be perfect. wouldn''t a mass produced piece be more likely flawed? I would think a designer making a custom piece would be paying more attention to his/her work, no? If custom means problems, why bother?

 

[Demelza]

I forgot to say that I don''t think it matters whether the ring was damaged while being sized, even if it was done as a courtesy. If there was the potential for damage, that should have been discussed before anyone touched the ring. Leon left a sizing bar on the bottom of the ring, so it''s hard to imagine how going down 1/2 size would cause any damage.

 

[MissAva]

If Leon said that he wants for 4500$ to fix his own mistakes I would ask for a full refund no other way about it. This setting costs an awful lot of money and you ought to get what you paid for. I would be livid.

 

[aljdewey]

What I''m trying to convey, I guess, is that the notion of "hand-crafted" and PERFECT don''t go together. Hand-crafted is unique and a work of art.....it''s not a cookie-cutter.
I have never seen any craftsman promise "perfection" on a hand-crafted item, and I cannot imagine any craftsman in his right mind promising "perfection" without very narrowly defining what that means in the context of the contract to produce a piece.

If you were to commission Monet (in his day) to paint a piece for you, I honestly wouldn''t expect someone to say "well, the 4th flower from the left is 2/100ths of a millimeter off in it''s placement." Geez....if you want that, you buy a paint-by-numbers set, not an individual, unique masterpiece.

Now.....if the paints starts to chip off!!!!....then yeah, there''s a problem with the workmanship.

Leon was quick to agree there was a problem with the quality on the ring the first time out, so it''s clear to me he is willing to make things absolutely right according to reasonable standards. So, I wonder what his take is on this, as Mara said. Does he see this as a flaw in workmanship or quality? If he did, it would be hard to imagine him saying "yes, there is a flaw in workmanship, and it''s my mistake but you will have to pay to fix it." He didn''t do that before, so I somehow don''t think that''s what''s going on here now.

 

[aljdewey]

Date: 10/19/2005 8:30:24 PM
Author: VegasAngel
If custom means problems, why bother?

Custom doesn''t mean "problems". It doesn''t mean uniform, either.

 

[aljdewey]

Date: 10/19/2005 8:30:24 PM
Author: VegasAngel

wouldn't a mass produced piece be more likely flawed? I would think a designer making a custom piece would be paying more attention to his/her work, no? If custom means problems, why bother?

Maybe the explanation will resonate better if I say it this way.

Pretend I'm a master artist. You ask me to draw a straight line. Which do you think will be more "perfect"....the straight line I draw free-hand, or the line I draw with a ruler?

If I try my hardest and pay complete and absolute attention and focus to drawing that line as straight as I can free-hand, it likely would come VERY VERY CLOSE to the one I draw with the ruler.....but I bet if you put them both on tracing paper and held them up to the light, my freehand straight line would have little tiny deviations that you wouldn't/couldn't notice unless you were holding them that way, right?

This is what is means to go custom, and if that's not acceptable as an end result, then you shouldn't go custom.

NOW....if my straight line is off by TEN DEGREES or so...then sure, bad workmanship.

 

[VegasAngel]

If you make me a custom ring (Or anything for that matter) and it''s not as I expected or you damaged it etc., you had better fix it or you WILL be returning my money. I want/expect whatever I buy to meet or exceed my expectations. Everyone should expect the best for their money.

Sorry, I''m not trying to argue or be harsh it''s just the way I operate. LoL, can you see what it would be like to deal with me if I were in her shoes?

 

[aljdewey]

Date: 10/19/2005 9:05:52 PM
Author: VegasAngel

I want/expect whatever I buy to meet or exceed my expectations. Everyone should expect the best for their money.

Sorry, I''m not trying to argue or be harsh it''s just the way I operate. LoL, can you see what it would be like to deal with me if I were in her shoes?

No sweat.....

I actually don''t think you are being argumentative. Your points are precisely why I have chimed in in the first place. I think the expectations of what "perfection" means aren''t reasonable when applied in a custom environment.

I think that people''s expectatations need to be reasonably set when doing custom, and I think the onus is on the craftsman to be clear up front what to expect in custom work.

 

[flutterby]

Ally,
I think your ring is AMAZING, one of my alltime favorites. I would have loved to be able to get a Leon ring (actually, I couldve but i wouldve had to wait..ANYWAY). You have spent alot of money on the ring so far, and honestly, it is a work of art. Look at the pictures you are posting! However, if you are going to look at it and feel like you have settled for something less, definately have it remade. Ask yourself honestly, do I love this ring? will I look for imperfections? what do you want? Half of us (myself included) would take it as it is, proudly displaying the work of art, and the other half would stare at it under a loupe till it was perfect. My stone isnt perfect, I almost didnt take it, but then I thought there is always going to be a more perfect ruby. As beautiful and large as mine is, if I wouldve kept looking I couldve found a better one. I decided that mine is what I wanted and I dont want to spend my life looking for something better.

Only you can make the decision with what you will be happy with. Keep everyone elses opinons aside and honestly figure out if you will be happy with it. I''m sure you will make the right decision for you.

 

[SeaOats]

I think this all comes down to two things:

1. When Leon agreed to resize the ring, did he mention that the milgrain would be altered? Did he mention any possible damage or change to other parts of the ring? If not, then I want the ring in the same condition it was in before the resizing. I''m not saying "perfect," just in the same condition it was before, which means no wavey milgrain. And if that means he has to remake the ring, well then, I guess in the future he will inform his customers of the potential of changes and/or damages. However, if he did tell Ally about possible changes/damages to the ring, then I would just accept the ring now.

2. Also, as others have said, I want to hear Leon''s description of what the milgrain looks like now. If it is only visible under a loupe or magnified in a picture, that''s one thing. But if he says it is visible with the naked eye, even if you have to stare at it to find it, I would want it fixed (assuming #1 he did not inform Ally of potential damage/changes to ring).

I think people are missing the point about the "perfection" in custom work. It is not that Ally is being picky about the custom work and demanding perfection, but rather, she had a ring that to her had great milgrain and now has a ring with less than perfect milgrain. Her ring should come back to her in the same condition it was in prior to sizing (assuming Leon did not say there was a risk of damage). Anything less is just unacceptable.

Therefore, if Leon did not tell her about the possibility of damage and he says that the milgrain problems are visible with the naked eye, then I would DEMAND the ring be remade (assuming only a remake can fix the milgrain problems from this point).

 

[Mara]

Actually Rascal we don't even know if the milgrain was "perfect" to begin with, that actually has not been mentioned that I know of in this thread. It could be that it was great originally and got messed up, or that it was that way to begin with and no one noticed it, but that now it's under scrutiny anyway so it's coming up.

Part of what is up in the air now is ... what was in writing? It's pretty hard to define PERFECT in writing and I doubt any vendor would allow such a thing anyway. So if 'straight as a ruler' milgrain was not in the contract, it may be all subjective. Just a thought.

I am SO anal about stuff I get it all in writing. That way at least I have a record of what was agreed to.

 

[SeaOats]

Mara, you''re right, another one of my many assumptions is that this was not that way when Ally originally received the ring.

If it was, then of course I wouldn''t be making any deal out of it at all. Like many people have already said, custom doen''t mean perfection.

I am just saying that if the milgrain problem is quite obvious now and was not before, AND Leon did not inform Ally of any possible problems, I would want something to be done! And if Leon said the only way to fix the problem is to remake it, then I would expect him to remake it. But that rests on several assumptions and on facts that I am not privy to.

 

[fountainfairfax]

Just adding my opinion, but I do think that when Ally realized the stone was missing the first time it''s just human nature to drive yourself a little crazy looking to see WHAT ELSE could be wrong...then Ally gets the ring back with such a huge flaw that now everything is going to seem wavy and off and what a terrible feeling to have with what is really such a beautiful ring.....and these magnified photos make us all even more crazy.

I think everyone who has chimed in here has really valid points and ideas. And I really have to agree with Aljdewey about the uniqueness of custom work. My new custom e-ring is not architecturally perfect- each of the little swirls is slightly different, because my stone is an old cut it''s not symmetrical so neither is it''s bezel, blah, blah, blah..if a PSer saw it in person they might think it could be more "finished" but I love that it''s hand crafted and don''t see anything that isn''t acceptable to me. BUT....

I don''t think Ally should accept anything less than what she considers acceptable from Leon, nor should she have to repay if there is truly something wrong. Ally, ask Leon to stop all the "publicity photos", tell him you want hand shots in natural light of the ring on someone''s finger, straight on, from each side of the band and each side of the profile. Try to get a good idea of what it is you think you see before you make a decision and if it''s still causing you craziness then there''s a problem.

and if you can''t tell if there''s a problem from his next batch of photos or you''re still feeling unsure, PM me or any NYC Pser (or a few of us) and we''ll go to Leon and check it out ourselves! NYC ladies, anyone up for a trip to see Mr Leon?

 

[radiantlover]

Hi Ally!

I have to agree with the majority here...I would be SO angry if Leon expected me to pay him $4500 to fix HIS mistake!

On another note...I didn''t see the mistake on the 1st pic until someone pointed it out. You also have to remember that this is magnified picture and the mistake is on the side so what is the likelyhood you will actually see it when you''re wearing it? But I have to agree with you that just knowing it''s not ''perfect'' would drive me crazy too.

Sorry for not really helping you...

Radiantlover

 

[SeaOats]

Date: 10/19/2005 10:22:36 PM
Author: fountainfairfax

and if you can''t tell if there''s a problem from his next batch of photos or you''re still feeling unsure, PM me or any NYC Pser (or a few of us) and we''ll go to Leon and check it out ourselves! NYC ladies, anyone up for a trip to see Mr Leon?

FFF, me me me!!

 

[Mara]

That's the thing Rascal...is that the problem is NOT obvious in the pictures to most of us here. Only a few said they could see it.

I am not saying well since hardly any of us can see it, then it's not there or it shouldn't be a big deal, that's not my point at all. But to me until we know more about what Leon really said and what he feels then I figure why string up and hang the man, what if it is a matter of WHAT ELSE COULD BE WRONG and noticing it for the first time or noticing something that is really a trick of the PHOTOGRAPHY (which has happened before on here!).

Sure if it's a huge glaring issue and Leon agrees then Ally should not have to fork out one dime for this to be fixed. But I guess what's still up in the air is what the REAL problem is and if it's a huge problem at all or more a mind or photo problem. We're just all kind of rambling on here about what if when in reality we don't even know.

Lastly, I will say it again as others already have, custom HANDMADE is not going to be PERFECT. Machine made is alot more symmetrical than hand-made can be. As FFF noted, there are variations in the work. I have a custom ring and who knows if it's hand made or not but it's not PERFECT. I don't think I'd want it if it was! I just bang it around anyway.

 

[Kaleigh]

Actually that is a great idea all you NYC PS'ers!!! I know I had 3 PS'ers check out my ring at Quest for me. It made me feel sooo much better!!!!

 

[fountainfairfax]

Date: 10/19/2005 10:24:15 PM
Author: Rascal49

Date: 10/19/2005 10:22:36 PM
Author: fountainfairfax

and if you can''t tell if there''s a problem from his next batch of photos or you''re still feeling unsure, PM me or any NYC Pser (or a few of us) and we''ll go to Leon and check it out ourselves! NYC ladies, anyone up for a trip to see Mr Leon?

FFF, me me me!!

This is not to hijack a very serious thread because I really am serious about being willing to go to Leon to see it in person if it makes Ally''s decisions any easier (and I think it''s awful that such a special time has been disrupted by these problems) but I am ALWAYS up for PS get-togethers in NYC as well

 

[SeaOats]

Date: 10/19/2005 10:34:52 PM
Author: fountainfairfax

Date: 10/19/2005 10:24:15 PM
Author: Rascal49

Date: 10/19/2005 10:22:36 PM
Author: fountainfairfax

and if you can''t tell if there''s a problem from his next batch of photos or you''re still feeling unsure, PM me or any NYC Pser (or a few of us) and we''ll go to Leon and check it out ourselves! NYC ladies, anyone up for a trip to see Mr Leon?

FFF, me me me!!

This is not to hijack a very serious thread because I really am serious about being willing to go to Leon to see it in person if it makes Ally''s decisions any easier (and I think it''s awful that such a special time has been disrupted by these problems) but I am ALWAYS up for PS get-togethers in NYC as well

Definitely!!

And Mara, like I said before, I totally agree with you. We are just arguing different senarios that we don''t even know are true or not! So at this point, it is up to Ally and Leon to figure out what to do.

 

[HOUMedGal]

OK, first off, Ally, I can''t really see any problems with your ring. I think it looks FABULOUS and it is certainly one of the most gorgeous ring I have EVER seen!!!

Maybe, if I really use my imagination, i can see a tiny inconsistency in the milgraining on the edge where the other ladies have circled and pointed out, but I couldn''t see anything when I first looked at the 3 pics.

Also, I have to agree that custom, handmade things will naturally have such inconsistencies; it comes with the territory. For example, I think that MY ring (which was custom and handmade) has some itty bitty ones...check out this picture. See how from the side view the prongs aren''t exactly symmetrical when you compare the ones on the L and the ones on the R? Yet I cannot see this when I look at it in real life unless I look very closely, and it certainly isn''t noticeable to anyone who sees my ring in normal everyday wear. It doesn''t bother me...I think a tiny bit of imperfection adds character and, it makes my ring MINE, unique and different from any other.

That said, it''s just MHO, so if the little inconsistency really bothers you, you should have him fix it, and you should NOT have to pay $4500 dollars for it. Unless, at some point, Leon brought forth a disclaimer that his work is handcrafted and may have some variations in it...if he warned you ahead of time of this, then you have a little less arguing ground. But I still think that, regardless of that disclaimer, it''s his job to make you happy; that''s just good business.

 

[butterfly 17]

Date: 10/19/2005 10:34:52 PM
Author: fountainfairfax

Date: 10/19/2005 10:24:15 PM
Author: Rascal49

Date: 10/19/2005 10:22:36 PM
Author: fountainfairfax

and if you can''t tell if there''s a problem from his next batch of photos or you''re still feeling unsure, PM me or any NYC Pser (or a few of us) and we''ll go to Leon and check it out ourselves! NYC ladies, anyone up for a trip to see Mr Leon?

FFF, me me me!!

This is not to hijack a very serious thread because I really am serious about being willing to go to Leon to see it in person if it makes Ally''s decisions any easier (and I think it''s awful that such a special time has been disrupted by these problems) but I am ALWAYS up for PS get-togethers in NYC as well

Me too!

I would love to go!

I would definitely be able to tell, I am so picky about these things. Actually, maybe I shouldn''t go. I will probably find the problem right away and demand he remake the ring from scratch, TWICE! One for Alley and one for good measure! LOL!

I can actually see Leon saying, no, I will not remake the ring, pay me $5000 and I will think about it.
He is definitely arrogant in that way. We had our share of disagreements and how he thought his reputation would be ruined when I suggested that the ring be made higher.

I think that you have to find out exactly what the situation is and how bad it really looks. He can take a better picture of the ring, can''t he? I kind of feel that he purposely took a distant picture because you would be able to notice the "flaw" more if he took a close up.
I mean, come on, look at his website, everything is up close and personal, nice clear photos in bright lighting.
So why send you a picture that doesn''t show you how well he fixed the ring. If I was trying to convince my customer that the ring is fixed and acceptable, I would want to give them a better picture.
So, tell him you want better pictures showing the part that was fixed.
After he takes the better pictures and you find that you are not satisfied with the ring, then I would ask him what the deal is if he does have to make it from scratch. Did he say that you actually have to pay that amount or is this an assumption?
Maybe if you tell him that you have posted the ring on this website and some people agree that there is a flaw and that everyone agrees that it is ridiculous that you have to pay to have a mistake fixed, especially one that his people made, he will remake the ring.
As much as a person is coveted and admired for his work, the way he handles problems (that he created) speaks volumes. There are plenty of people here and who are anonymously surfing this website who are contemplating using him to design a piece.
The way he handles this situation will ultimately affect their decisions and our opinion of him.
I have seen a few custom pieces made were something was slightly off and vendors (most notably Whiteflash) have remade the ring to please their customers and NOT CHARGED THEM!

Anyway, ask for better pictures, then decide from there what you want to do. Remember, if it bothers you now, even before you get the ring, it will definitely always bother you.

 

[MissAva]

Date: 10/19/2005 10:34:52 PM
Author: fountainfairfax

Date: 10/19/2005 10:24:15 PM
Author: Rascal49

Date: 10/19/2005 10:22:36 PM
Author: fountainfairfax

and if you can''t tell if there''s a problem from his next batch of photos or you''re still feeling unsure, PM me or any NYC Pser (or a few of us) and we''ll go to Leon and check it out ourselves! NYC ladies, anyone up for a trip to see Mr Leon?

FFF, me me me!!

This is not to hijack a very serious thread because I really am serious about being willing to go to Leon to see it in person if it makes Ally''s decisions any easier (and I think it''s awful that such a special time has been disrupted by these problems) but I am ALWAYS up for PS get-togethers in NYC as well

I''m there!

 

[jadeleaves]

Chiming in to say that expecting you to pay for remaking the ring is absolute rubbish.

No matter how arrogant a jeweller is, he should go out of his way to fix a piece of jewelry which had left his workshop LESS THAN PERFECT.

Sure, custom work has its nuances etc etc, but you have paid good money for your ring, and you should not have to settle for something which even Leon has admitted would need a total remake to fix.

I can go on and on, but I''m actually fuming mad for you already, so I better not get worked up even more

Seriously - would any self-respecting jeweller EXPECT a customer to pay for THEIR shoddy worksmanship/quality control?

Case in point - I had an platinum eternity ring made by Precious Metals a year ago, and I wasn''t happy with the prongs and the gaps between the stones. When Garry found out, he offered to remake it from scratch, at no extra cost whatsoever, even though he had to add more stones and remake the entire ring (it was all handmade). I''ve just gotten it back last week, and it is perfect.

Was I disappointed when I got my less-than-perfect (in my eyes) ring last year? Yes.
Am I impressed with Precious Metals''s customer service? Absolutely.
Will I go back there to get more custom work done? Definitely.

Often, it is only when something goes wrong that we find out the true measure of a business in their willingness to fix things for the customer.

Big cross in my book for LM now.

 

[valeria101]

Ally, have you seen it?

I don''t understand the ''handmade is not perfect'' line at all - perhaps no one can draw a line or a circle freehand as well as with line & compass, but the fine art of drawing straight lines has never quite took off

Drawing did...

I can''t tell from the pictures much. All in all, it is you who should feel this ring is perfect. I trully hope this will be the case.