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Israel will have a new PM, possibly a female

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beebrisk

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Date: 2/17/2009 10:10:06 AM
Author: swimmer
Date: 2/15/2009 7:00:57 AM

Author: strmrdr

Date: 2/14/2009 3:27:44 PM


Author: swimmer





Have to run, so will address Storm's other post later (as usual you show better insight than anyone Bushy was paying I must say).


thanks, today a friend of mines son is sitting with a 50cal rifle watching a trail that was used for Iranian terrorists to cross over into Iraq. The terrorists haven't made it far into Iraq alive since his unit reached the area.


The estimate is that better than 300 a day was using the trail before that




To the above I just ask, which of your children (born or unborn) will you sacrifice to fight this unending war?


It is not that easy, if someone was launching rockets towards my home and the government would not do anything about it I would gather up some good old boys and deal with the problem myself.


Some things are worth dieing for.


Its a long border, glad that your friend's son has a bit of it covered. I was a border patrol for years, long periods of boredom punctuated with moments of sheer terror and insanity was my general take on the situation. Good luck to him, it took years for me to relearn how to sleep deeply.


I like to think long term. Say I go put on my 'shit kickers' and bash my neighbor's face in to 'solve a problem.' What happens after that? How do you (and aforementioned good ole' boys) continue to live next to them? I think you might win a battle but lose the war. As a kibbutznik friend says all the time, its like the Palestinians and Jews were created by a terrible computer program that perfectly created opposite and yet similar purposes and characteristics designed to conflict with one another. I think most Israelis understand why they are pissed, we are pissed for the same reasons, but in order to break the cycle of violence, violence probably is not the answer.


Yes, I agree that there are things worth dying for, but on the flip side of this, you have to decide what is worth living for and devote all that you can to making that objective a reality.


Shout out to thing2!!!! thank you for always being excellent, supportive, and curious! Glad to be your friend.

I remember Rabin and Arafat shaking hands on the White House lawn in 1993.

What happened?

Ah yes, a few random suicide bombings and a lot of dead Israelis.

That's not the path to peace. The Palestinian leadership does not understand a "path to peace". PEACE is not their goal. Their goal is the annihilation of Israel. End of story.

There is no moral equivalency between Israel and the Palestinian thuggery (ie: their governing power). To work with that preposition is dangerous and deadly thinking.
 

swimmer

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Date: 2/17/2009 6:43:22 PM
Author: beebrisk

There is no moral equivalency between Israel and the Palestinian thuggery (ie: their governing power). To work with that preposition is dangerous and deadly thinking.

Oh! I don''t think anyone is working with that. Hamas isn''t even in charge there. I think this is the sort of mistake that the US keeps making. You can''t declare war on ideology. Perhaps why the "war on drugs" doesn''t go very well. This is a battle to win hearts and minds. I can not say it any more clearly, Hamas is not to be dealt with for long term solutions, they are just a bunch of hooligans being propped up by Saudi and Iranian monies. And no, there is no equivalency, did anyone even hint that there was?
 

beebrisk

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Date: 2/17/2009 7:52:43 PM
Author: swimmer
Date: 2/17/2009 6:43:22 PM

Author: beebrisk


There is no moral equivalency between Israel and the Palestinian thuggery (ie: their governing power). To work with that preposition is dangerous and deadly thinking.


Oh! I don''t think anyone is working with that. Hamas isn''t even in charge there. I think this is the sort of mistake that the US keeps making. You can''t declare war on ideology. Perhaps why the ''war on drugs'' doesn''t go very well. This is a battle to win hearts and minds. I can not say it any more clearly, Hamas is not to be dealt with for long term solutions, they are just a bunch of hooligans being propped up by Saudi and Iranian monies. And no, there is no equivalency, did anyone even hint that there was?

No...Absolutely, you didn''t. And I didn''t mean to imply that.
But I see it in the media and in the culture. All the time. And it makes me angry.
 

AGBF

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Any observant or knowledgeable Jews (or others) who are reading this might want to hop over to Rocky Talky to take a look at a thread on wedding bands worn by Jews. It has been interesting for me and I think we could use a heck of a lot more intelligent input!


AllieGator's Thread


Deborah
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sklingem

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Date: 2/13/2009 2:44:36 PM
Author: beebrisk
Yeah. Expanding existing Israeli settlements will boost the peace process big time. Maybe a coalition with the right-wing extremist parties is needed to really get some action going.

Why am I not surprised by that bordering-on-racist, anti Semitic response from the tolerant liberal?
[/quote]

Yeah - criticizing Israeli policy is unfortunately considered racist and antisemitic, independent of the content of the criticism. That is exactly why we are getting nowhere. Please let me know how an expansion of Israeli settlements is going to promote long-term peace between Israelis and Palestinians. I''d be very interested. And the bombing of civilians, incursion into the gaza strip, the use of white phosphorous as well as economic isolation are no solution either. If the criticism of such policies are antisemitic, please be my guest. Of course I do not support any extremist Palestinian violence either, carried out by a small minority and not representative of all Palestinians. As long as there is no two state solution and an adequate level of employment, social, educational and health services for Palestinians, Hamas will get popular support from some.
 

beebrisk

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Date: 2/20/2009 7:08:35 PM
Author: rob09
Date: 2/13/2009 2:44:36 PM

Author: beebrisk

Yeah. Expanding existing Israeli settlements will boost the peace process big time. Maybe a coalition with the right-wing extremist parties is needed to really get some action going.


Why am I not surprised by that bordering-on-racist, anti Semitic response from the tolerant liberal?


Yeah - criticizing Israeli policy is unfortunately considered racist and antisemitic, independent of the content of the criticism. That is exactly why we are getting nowhere. Please let me know how an expansion of Israeli settlements is going to promote long-term peace between Israelis and Palestinians. I''d be very interested. And the bombing of civilians, incursion into the gaza strip, the use of white phosphorous as well as economic isolation are no solution either. If the criticism of such policies are antisemitic, please be my guest. Of course I do not support any extremist Palestinian violence either, carried out by a small minority and not representative of all Palestinians. As long as there is no two state solution and an adequate level of employment, social, educational and health services for Palestinians, Hamas will get popular support from some.

[/quote]

As long as Palestinian children are given text books that exclude Israel on the map, there will never be anything BUT Hamas. And providing "educational services" will work?

To say that you "do not support any extremist Palestinian violence either " is drawing moral equivalency. And there is none.

How many land concessions must Israel make in the next forty years until the Palestinians get what they want?

What they want is the total destruction--the annihilation--of Israel and the Jews. They do not want a separate state. They want Israel, pure and simple. There will be no rest for them until it is gone. Gone.

So yeah, I do criticize those policies, because the Palestinians have proven time and time again that concessions and outstretched hands are pointless.

Long term peace was the "idea" when Arafat and Rabin shook hands on the White House lawn. That worked well.
 

risingsun

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Date: 2/20/2009 7:08:35 PM
Author: rob09

Date: 2/13/2009 2:44:36 PM
Author: beebrisk
Yeah. Expanding existing Israeli settlements will boost the peace process big time. Maybe a coalition with the right-wing extremist parties is needed to really get some action going.

Why am I not surprised by that bordering-on-racist, anti Semitic response from the tolerant liberal?

Yeah - criticizing Israeli policy is unfortunately considered racist and antisemitic, independent of the content of the criticism. That is exactly why we are getting nowhere. Please let me know how an expansion of Israeli settlements is going to promote long-term peace between Israelis and Palestinians. I''d be very interested. And the bombing of civilians, incursion into the gaza strip, the use of white phosphorous as well as economic isolation are no solution either. If the criticism of such policies are antisemitic, please be my guest. Of course I do not support any extremist Palestinian violence either, carried out by a small minority and not representative of all Palestinians. As long as there is no two state solution and an adequate level of employment, social, educational and health services for Palestinians, Hamas will get popular support from some.
[/quote]It is the responsibility of the Palestinian government to provide employment, social, educational and health services for Palestinians. It is also the obligation of the Palestinian government to prove that they can share a border with Israel and refrain from constantly lobbing rockets at Israeli citizens. It is the duty of the Palestinian government to stop teaching hatred of Israel and the Jewish people to their children. It is long past due for the Arab nations to recognize Israel''s right to exist as a Jewish state. As long as Hamas, a terrorist organization, is the Palestinian government, there will be no sustained peace. This is exactly why we are getting nowhere.
 

beebrisk

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Date: 2/21/2009 1:52:21 PM
Author: risingsun
Date: 2/20/2009 7:08:35 PM

Author: rob09


Date: 2/13/2009 2:44:36 PM

Author: beebrisk

Yeah. Expanding existing Israeli settlements will boost the peace process big time. Maybe a coalition with the right-wing extremist parties is needed to really get some action going.


Why am I not surprised by that bordering-on-racist, anti Semitic response from the tolerant liberal?


Yeah - criticizing Israeli policy is unfortunately considered racist and antisemitic, independent of the content of the criticism. That is exactly why we are getting nowhere. Please let me know how an expansion of Israeli settlements is going to promote long-term peace between Israelis and Palestinians. I''d be very interested. And the bombing of civilians, incursion into the gaza strip, the use of white phosphorous as well as economic isolation are no solution either. If the criticism of such policies are antisemitic, please be my guest. Of course I do not support any extremist Palestinian violence either, carried out by a small minority and not representative of all Palestinians. As long as there is no two state solution and an adequate level of employment, social, educational and health services for Palestinians, Hamas will get popular support from some.
It is the responsibility of the Palestinian government to provide employment, social, educational and health services for Palestinians. It is also the obligation of the Palestinian government to prove that they can share a border with Israel and refrain from constantly lobbing rockets at Israeli citizens. It is the duty of the Palestinian government to stop teaching hatred of Israel and the Jewish people to their children. It is long past due for the Arab nations to recognize Israel''s right to exist as a Jewish state. As long as Hamas, a terrorist organization, is the Palestinian government, there will be no sustained peace. This is exactly why we are getting nowhere.[/quote]

Amen Rising, AMEN.
 

HollyS

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Risingsun: point well made. Thank you.
 

swimmer

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te:[/b] 2/21/2009 1:52:21 PM
Author: risingsun
It is the responsibility of the Palestinian government to provide employment, social, educational and health services for Palestinians. It is also the obligation of the Palestinian government to prove that they can share a border with Israel and refrain from constantly lobbing rockets at Israeli citizens. It is the duty of the Palestinian government to stop teaching hatred of Israel and the Jewish people to their children. It is long past due for the Arab nations to recognize Israel''s right to exist as a Jewish state. As long as Hamas, a terrorist organization, is the Palestinian government, there will be no sustained peace. This is exactly why we are getting nowhere.[/quote]

Yes, if you were talking about almost anywhere on earth, I would agree with you. But at this point the situation has moved beyond that. If Israelis want peace, they have to do something more than wait for the Palestinians to somehow, with no natural resources and extreme overpopulation, pull their sh;t together and act like a real country. Well, this just is not happening for a variety of infrastructural reasons and funding from the Saudis, Iran, and other savory characters. Those of us who live close enough to the situation know that something has to be done, continuing with the insanity, just hoping that they pick the right path is not a solution.

So now I ask you, as Americans who are so supportive of Israelis using force, have you donated enough monetarily to Israel? (that is really just rhetorical, but I mean this next bit) Will you send your children to fight to continue this downward spiral of vengance? If you are as unsure of that path as I am, start thinking beyond the knee jerk "never again." We have to find a way towards peace. No matter what direction is taken, there will be more violence. I am just curious because I hear things very much like the above from Jews/others who support Israel here in the US, but I don''t understand how staying in this holding pattern is a solution.

Does my question make sense? Something new must be tried, and Storm and other 2nd amendment gurus, yes, Israel does have nuclear weapons, but there are a variety of environmental reasons to not use them in our own backyard, no?
 

MoonWater

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Date: 2/23/2009 6:06:28 PM
Author: swimmer

Yes, if you were talking about almost anywhere on earth, I would agree with you. But at this point the situation has moved beyond that. If Israelis want peace, they have to do something more than wait for the Palestinians to somehow, with no natural resources and extreme overpopulation, pull their sh;t together and act like a real country. Well, this just is not happening for a variety of infrastructural reasons and funding from the Saudis, Iran, and other savory characters. Those of us who live close enough to the situation know that something has to be done, continuing with the insanity, just hoping that they pick the right path is not a solution.

So now I ask you, as Americans who are so supportive of Israelis using force, have you donated enough monetarily to Israel? (that is really just rhetorical, but I mean this next bit) Will you send your children to fight to continue this downward spiral of vengance? If you are as unsure of that path as I am, start thinking beyond the knee jerk ''never again.'' We have to find a way towards peace. No matter what direction is taken, there will be more violence. I am just curious because I hear things very much like the above from Jews/others who support Israel here in the US, but I don''t understand how staying in this holding pattern is a solution.


Does my question make sense? Something new must be tried, and Storm and other 2nd amendment gurus, yes, Israel does have nuclear weapons, but there are a variety of environmental reasons to not use them in our own backyard, no?
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beebrisk

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te:[/b] 2/23/2009 6:06:28 PM
Author: swimmer
Date: 2/21/2009 1:52:21 PM

Author: risingsun
It is the responsibility of the Palestinian government to provide employment, social, educational and health services for Palestinians. It is also the obligation of the Palestinian government to prove that they can share a border with Israel and refrain from constantly lobbing rockets at Israeli citizens. It is the duty of the Palestinian government to stop teaching hatred of Israel and the Jewish people to their children. It is long past due for the Arab nations to recognize Israel's right to exist as a Jewish state. As long as Hamas, a terrorist organization, is the Palestinian government, there will be no sustained peace. This is exactly why we are getting nowhere.


Yes, if you were talking about almost anywhere on earth, I would agree with you. But at this point the situation has moved beyond that. If Israelis want peace, they have to do something more than wait for the Palestinians to somehow, with no natural resources and extreme overpopulation, pull their sh;t together and act like a real country. Well, this just is not happening for a variety of infrastructural reasons and funding from the Saudis, Iran, and other savory characters. Those of us who live close enough to the situation know that something has to be done, continuing with the insanity, just hoping that they pick the right path is not a solution.


So now I ask you, as Americans who are so supportive of Israelis using force, have you donated enough monetarily to Israel? (that is really just rhetorical, but I mean this next bit) Will you send your children to fight to continue this downward spiral of vengance? If you are as unsure of that path as I am, start thinking beyond the knee jerk 'never again.' We have to find a way towards peace. No matter what direction is taken, there will be more violence. I am just curious because I hear things very much like the above from Jews/others who support Israel here in the US, but I don't understand how staying in this holding pattern is a solution.


Does my question make sense? Something new must be tried, and Storm and other 2nd amendment gurus, yes, Israel does have nuclear weapons, but there are a variety of environmental reasons to not use them in our own backyard, no? [/quote]

You say that the Palestinians have to start acting like a "real country" and I agree. But it's not going to happen. History has proven it so. All the concessions, money, health care, and educational programs in the world will not change their mindset. Israel cannot change the hearts and minds of a people who will not even recognize it's right to exist. If you start with that scenario, there is nowhere to go. You say that Israel should do something to change that but we're talking about thousands of years of institutional hatred for the Jews. How on earth is that fixable now???

So we are in a situation where Israel can only defend itself by any means necessary because land, handshakes at the White House and separate states will never mean anything or accomplish anything.

As for your use of the word "vengeance", again I think this serves only to draw a moral equivalency and there isn't one. There's right and there's wrong. The country that fights against the mere "existence" of another is wrong. There's really not a whole lot left for Israel to "do" except protect their borders, remain on the defense and fight back after every rocket and suicide bomb.

Again, the Palestinians DO NOT want peace--Unless it's in a world without Israel and Jews.
 

swimmer

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Bee, When was the last time you chatted with a Palestinian? I''m waiting for some to come over for dinner. We have more in common with each other than with most anyone on earth; love of the same place. We have to figure out how to live next to each other. You know about a small sliver of their population, that would be like the common view of Americans as obese ****-obsessed and evil that is pervasive in the Muslim world. You don''t want to be stereotyped, why stereotype others? They just are not accurate.

I have no idea what you are talking about, so really didn''t reply. To quote DancingFire, Dinnertime!
 

MoonWater

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Date: 2/23/2009 6:46:32 PM
Author: swimmer
Bee, When was the last time you chatted with a Palestinian? I''m waiting for some to come over for dinner. We have more in common with each other than with most anyone on earth; love of the same place. We have to figure out how to live next to each other. You know about a small sliver of their population, that would be like the common view of Americans as obese ****-obsessed and evil that is pervasive in the Muslim world. You don''t want to be stereotyped, why stereotype others? They just are not accurate.

I have no idea what you are talking about, so really didn''t reply. To quote DancingFire, Dinnertime!
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beebrisk

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Date: 2/23/2009 6:46:32 PM
Author: swimmer
Bee, When was the last time you chatted with a Palestinian? I'm waiting for some to come over for dinner. We have more in common with each other than with most anyone on earth; love of the same place. We have to figure out how to live next to each other. You know about a small sliver of their population, that would be like the common view of Americans as obese ****-obsessed and evil that is pervasive in the Muslim world. You don't want to be stereotyped, why stereotype others? They just are not accurate.


I have no idea what you are talking about, so really didn't reply. To quote DancingFire, Dinnertime!

I'm sure there are some wonderful, peace loving Palestinians.

However, the greater population installed a terrorist organization to lead them. That's no stereotype. That's reality. Thank G-d most Israeli's actually understand that.
 

AllieGator

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(Before I start, I''m dating a jewish guy, so no one can accuse me of being anti-semitic! I kid, I kid...
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)

I always find this issue difficult for me to comprehend...I think it is very easy to just automatically say, "Israel is right". And why not? The Jewish people, as a whole, have had a heartbreaking history of oppression, so on that note, I think that the concept of Israel is a great idea.

However, the way Israel was formed did interrupt a way of life for the people who lived there, and the subsequent fighting has led to the Palestinians becoming a refugee population with many problems.

Now, I''m not saying that Hamas or any other terrorist organization is right...I just think it''s important that Palestine is as involved in negotiations for peace as Israel (To read more on this, take a look at Rashid Khalidi''s Resurrecting Empire--a very good read, and it has a great section on Israel). It''s a cold hard fact that more Palestinian civilians are killed then Israeli civilians, and civilians dying always makes me unhappy.

Palestine, too, has a responsibility to separate itself from Hamas and other groups, if they wish to be seen as a nation that wants to work towards peace, and the sooner they can do this, the better for everyone.

Although I do feel that Palestine could be better represented, overall I think that the US needs to support Israel. Israel doesn''t have many allies, and we should use our name/threat of might to protect Israel until this conflict can be resolved. I think as long as the US backs Israel, no hostile nation will dare do anything too catastrophic to Israel.


(Rob, I have to agree with you...as someone dating a Jewish guy in a Jewish family, if I ever try to say anything about helping Palestine or Israel maybe having mis-stepped, I get slapped with the Anti-semitic card. It can be frustrating to have your intellectually arrived upon views dismissed as racist, due to the fact that the person simply disagree with your own. I wouldn''t mind if this happened once, but now that they know that I have some Sympathy towards Palestine, they are constantly trying to "educate me", and for the sake of my poor BF I just grin and bear it.

I did get my boyfriends father well, the other day, when he accused me of being Anti-Semitic, and I said "Well, Dr. Lastname, if I''m anti-semitic, I better leave your house right now and dump your son, because otherwise I''m the worst Anti-Semitic out there.
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strmrdr

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te:[/b] 2/23/2009 6:06:28 PM
Author: swimmer

Does my question make sense? Something new must be tried, and Storm and other 2nd amendment gurus, yes, Israel does have nuclear weapons, but there are a variety of environmental reasons to not use them in our own backyard, no?
[/quote]
The truth is there never will be peace in the region over any long period of time.
You have 2 incompatible ways of thinking that can not coexist over a long time frame.
The best that can be archived is periods of low level warfare.
 

ksinger

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Date: 2/24/2009 7:14:44 AM
Author: AllieGator
(Before I start, I''m dating a jewish guy, so no one can accuse me of being anti-semitic! I kid, I kid...
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)

I always find this issue difficult for me to comprehend...I think it is very easy to just automatically say, ''Israel is right''. And why not? The Jewish people, as a whole, have had a heartbreaking history of oppression, so on that note, I think that the concept of Israel is a great idea.

However, the way Israel was formed did interrupt a way of life for the people who lived there, and the subsequent fighting has led to the Palestinians becoming a refugee population with many problems.

Now, I''m not saying that Hamas or any other terrorist organization is right...I just think it''s important that Palestine is as involved in negotiations for peace as Israel (To read more on this, take a look at Rashid Khalidi''s Resurrecting Empire--a very good read, and it has a great section on Israel). It''s a cold hard fact that more Palestinian civilians are killed then Israeli civilians, and civilians dying always makes me unhappy.

Palestine, too, has a responsibility to separate itself from Hamas and other groups, if they wish to be seen as a nation that wants to work towards peace, and the sooner they can do this, the better for everyone.

Although I do feel that Palestine could be better represented, overall I think that the US needs to support Israel. Israel doesn''t have many allies, and we should use our name/threat of might to protect Israel until this conflict can be resolved. I think as long as the US backs Israel, no hostile nation will dare do anything too catastrophic to Israel.


(Rob, I have to agree with you...as someone dating a Jewish guy in a Jewish family, if I ever try to say anything about helping Palestine or Israel maybe having mis-stepped, I get slapped with the Anti-semitic card. It can be frustrating to have your intellectually arrived upon views dismissed as racist, due to the fact that the person simply disagree with your own. I wouldn''t mind if this happened once, but now that they know that I have some Sympathy towards Palestine, they are constantly trying to ''educate me'', and for the sake of my poor BF I just grin and bear it.

I did get my boyfriends father well, the other day, when he accused me of being Anti-Semitic, and I said ''Well, Dr. Lastname, if I''m anti-semitic, I better leave your house right now and dump your son, because otherwise I''m the worst Anti-Semitic out there.
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)
Amen to the entire post. It would be helpful for some Jews, and supporters of Israel regardless of her actions, and who scream anti-semitism at the first hint of criticism, to understand that for some of us, we''ve neither been raised in the Christian faith, (overtly anyway, I''d say just about everyone is culturally Christian in the US), and thus didn''t get THAT view of Jews or Israel, nor did some of us ever MEET a Jew growing up. Or at least I didn''t know about it. Without overt indoctrination or exposure, I don''t see how one could be accused of anti-semitism. But you find out pretty quickly that if you even HINT that Israel might have done something wrong, you will be denounced to high heaven.

That said, I''m reading some stuff now that is helping me understand some things about the Jews better. Understanding is always a good thing. But holding any group above criticism for actions today for atrocities suffered by others long ago, is foolish in my book. And it certainly cuts off any meaningful communication.

It just occurred to me how interesting it would be to get the views on this topic, of a Native American. I have known but few, even though there are many here. I would think they might have some interesting things to say. They probably see both sides of that argument in a unique way - understanding the desire to return to ancestral lands, while understanding what that would mean for the people already there, having been shoved into reservations themselves.
 

elle_chris

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I have no problem criticizing Israel for her actions. I also have no problem criticizing the Palestinians for thiers. You can''t blame the Israelies alone. It seems to me that many folks completely overlook the hatred that''s taught in school towards the Israelies, the constant rocket fire from the Palestinians, the suicide bombings and then to top it off, electing Hamas into power. What does that show your neigbors? It certianly doesn''t show them you want peace. But hey, let''s all blame only Israel because of the way it responds. It''s like the actions of the palestinians are just a mere afterthought, and I think that''s where the anit-semitism comes in.

As far as ancestral land goes, the jews were always in that region. They were living in Egypt, Syria, Jordan and just about every country in the middle east.
After the creation of Israel and the expulsion of the Palestinians, the Jews from the surrounding countries were also kicked out. An eye for eye I suppose. But no one ever mentions that. In fact, no one ever mentions anything other than the way Israel responds. I think it''s pretty one sided.

If you want to argue human rights, argue it with Hamas. How are they helping their own people exactly? What are they doing to come towards a peaceful solution?? Can anyone here show me anything that''s been said by a top level hamas member that shows they''re trying for peace? anything??
 

risingsun

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Anti-Semitism seems to be one of the only "acceptable" forms of bigotry in the world today. I'm shocked, but not really, by some of the responses on this thread. No one has said that Israel cannot be criticised or that all criticism is anti-Semitic. If you do your research, you will find hatred of Israel and the Jewish people to be pervasive in many parts of the world. I have made it point to follow the stories that describe this growing anti-Semitism and it both sickens and frightens me. To swimmer, it's not that I am in favor of Israel using force, rather I'm in favor of Hamas, Iran and the Saudis to cease using it against Israel. If Israel is not subjected to attack, then there is no need to respond in kind. If the money and resources spent on attacking Israel were used to rebuild Palestinian infrastructure and assist it's citizens, then things might change dramatically for both peoples.
 

MoonWater

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Date: 2/24/2009 8:14:32 AM
Author: ksinger


It just occurred to me how interesting it would be to get the views on this topic, of a Native American. I have known but few, even though there are many here. I would think they might have some interesting things to say. They probably see both sides of that argument in a unique way - understanding the desire to return to ancestral lands, while understanding what that would mean for the people already there, having been shoved into reservations themselves.

Get out of my head! I decided my topic for a paper will be on US expansion from the perspective of Native Americans. I haven''t even begun research yet, wish me luck. If I think it''s decent I''ll send it your way.
 

ksinger

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Date: 2/24/2009 11:18:07 PM
Author: MoonWater

Date: 2/24/2009 8:14:32 AM
Author: ksinger


It just occurred to me how interesting it would be to get the views on this topic, of a Native American. I have known but few, even though there are many here. I would think they might have some interesting things to say. They probably see both sides of that argument in a unique way - understanding the desire to return to ancestral lands, while understanding what that would mean for the people already there, having been shoved into reservations themselves.

Get out of my head! I decided my topic for a paper will be on US expansion from the perspective of Native Americans. I haven''t even begun research yet, wish me luck. If I think it''s decent I''ll send it your way.
Booga booga!!! The DH accuses me of it all the time. ;-) And you know I''d love to read your paper!
 

AllieGator

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Dec 1, 2008
Messages
316
Date: 2/24/2009 11:07:48 PM
Author: risingsun
Anti-Semitism seems to be one of the only ''acceptable'' forms of bigotry in the world today. I''m shocked, but not really, by some of the responses on this thread. No one has said that Israel cannot be criticised or that all criticism is anti-Semitic. If you do your research, you will find hatred of Israel and the Jewish people to be pervasive in many parts of the world. I have made it point to follow the stories that describe this growing anti-Semitism and it both sickens and frightens me. To swimmer, it''s not that I am in favor of Israel using force, rather I''m in favor of Hamas, Iran and the Saudis to cease using it against Israel. If Israel is not subjected to attack, then there is no need to respond in kind. If the money and resources spent on attacking Israel were used to rebuild Palestinian infrastructure and assist it''s citizens, then things might change dramatically for both peoples.

I don''t think anyone here is saying anything anti-semitic...I certainly don''t think I did. I apologize if what I said seemed that way to you, but I meant no bigotry.
 

beebrisk

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Dec 18, 2005
Messages
1,000
Date: 2/25/2009 10:56:26 AM
Author: AllieGator
Date: 2/24/2009 11:07:48 PM

Author: risingsun

Anti-Semitism seems to be one of the only 'acceptable' forms of bigotry in the world today. I'm shocked, but not really, by some of the responses on this thread. No one has said that Israel cannot be criticised or that all criticism is anti-Semitic. If you do your research, you will find hatred of Israel and the Jewish people to be pervasive in many parts of the world. I have made it point to follow the stories that describe this growing anti-Semitism and it both sickens and frightens me. To swimmer, it's not that I am in favor of Israel using force, rather I'm in favor of Hamas, Iran and the Saudis to cease using it against Israel. If Israel is not subjected to attack, then there is no need to respond in kind. If the money and resources spent on attacking Israel were used to rebuild Palestinian infrastructure and assist it's citizens, then things might change dramatically for both peoples.


I don't think anyone here is saying anything anti-semitic...I certainly don't think I did. I apologize if what I said seemed that way to you, but I meant no bigotry.

Allie,

While I don't believe you meant to be anti-Semitic in any way, its important to understand the perception and the sensitivities involved.

There are a few people here who have drawn a moral equivalency between Israel and the Palestinians. To do this is a little like saying that Hitler was wrong, but so were the Jews for not getting out of Europe sooner.

Maybe that's not the best analogy, but it's pretty close.

There is NO moral equivalency that can be drawn here. Israel is under attack almost constantly, and therefore must defend themselves vigorously in order to survive. It's ALL about the survival of the Israeli state and its people. Look at the land concessions made since the era of Golda Meir, look that the efforts made to ensure lasting peace (Clinton,Rabin and Arafat) and look at the repeated response from the Palestinians. It isn't pretty. To place the thug-ruled Palestinian state on the level of Israel is seen by many as anti-Semitic. How could it not? One state is in the pocket of thieves, thugs and terrorists, the other is run by a democratically elected legislature. This alone should strike a chord in people who respect and hold precious the freedoms that democracy brings to its people.

As for the "fact" that more Palestinians are killed than Israelis, I can't confirm that, but I can tell you that if the Palestinians stopped lobbing rockets at their neighbors and strapping bombs around their waists, those number would no longer exist.

Again, I do not in any way want to suggest that your comments were Anti Semitic. Thank you for your thoughtful post.
 

AllieGator

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Dec 1, 2008
Messages
316
I never tried to equate Palestine to Israel. I just said that calling people Anti-Semitic for criticizing Israel is counterproductive, since most of the time those people are not that way at all.

Once again, sorry for any offense I caused.
 

beebrisk

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Dec 18, 2005
Messages
1,000
Date: 2/25/2009 11:37:39 AM
Author: AllieGator
I never tried to equate Palestine to Israel. I just said that calling people Anti-Semitic for criticizing Israel is counterproductive, since most of the time those people are not that way at all.


Once again, sorry for any offense I caused.

I know you didn''t...I was referring to a few others on this board, who I believe veil their Antisemitism in moral equivalencies. And it''s not just here on PS, it''s everywhere in the media and culture.
No apology needed.
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risingsun

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Dec 19, 2006
Messages
5,549
Date: 2/25/2009 11:37:39 AM
Author: AllieGator
I never tried to equate Palestine to Israel. I just said that calling people Anti-Semitic for criticizing Israel is counterproductive, since most of the time those people are not that way at all.

Once again, sorry for any offense I caused.
I wasn''t referring to you in my post, Alle. You did not cause offense. Beebrisk did a good job of explaining some of the sensitivities involved in this discussion. I did make a point in my comments to say that not all criticism of Israel and her actiions are antiSemitic. I chose not to single anyone out in my post, but I''m sorry that it caused you distress.
 

AllieGator

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Dec 1, 2008
Messages
316
Date: 2/25/2009 8:00:20 PM
Author: risingsun
Date: 2/25/2009 11:37:39 AM

Author: AllieGator

I never tried to equate Palestine to Israel. I just said that calling people Anti-Semitic for criticizing Israel is counterproductive, since most of the time those people are not that way at all.


Once again, sorry for any offense I caused.
I wasn''t referring to you in my post, Alle. You did not cause offense. Beebrisk did a good job of explaining some of the sensitivities involved in this discussion. I did make a point in my comments to say that not all criticism of Israel and her actiions are antiSemitic. I chose not to single anyone out in my post, but I''m sorry that it caused you distress.

No worries, Risingsun, I just wanted to make sure I didn''t offend you!
 

sklingem

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Feb 6, 2008
Messages
641
Date: 2/25/2009 2:29:48 PM
Author: beebrisk
I know you didn''t...I was referring to a few others on this board, who I believe veil their Antisemitism in moral equivalencies.

Antisemtism:

"Antisemitism (also spelled anti-semitism or anti-Semitism; also known as Judeophobia) is a term used to describe prejudice against or hostility towards people of Jewish lineage, which is ultimately rooted in, and based upon, a historical religio-cultural aversion to their core ancestral religious beliefs and way of life.
This prejudice or hostility is usually characterized by a combination of religious, racial, cultural and ethnic biases. "

OK Beebrisk - this is the definition of "antisemitism". Nobody on this forum has said anything that could be interpreted as antisemitic, and suggesting that anybody here is antisemitic as you did is not only purely speculative but also highly insulting. Can the criticism of Israeli actions and policies be rooted in antisemitism? Sure. Does it have to be? Of course not. Is comparing acts of violence between Israelis and Palestinians acceptable? That is up for debate (sorry). Is drawing comparisons a sign of antisemitism? Maybe , maybe not.
So before you throw around big words that you may use differently (and if you do, please make that clear) I would think twice. It is an unfortunate and unnecessary distraction from the topic at hand.
 

beebrisk

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Dec 18, 2005
Messages
1,000
Date: 2/26/2009 7:22:56 PM
Author: rob09
Date: 2/25/2009 2:29:48 PM

Author: beebrisk

I know you didn''t...I was referring to a few others on this board, who I believe veil their Antisemitism in moral equivalencies.


Antisemtism:


''Antisemitism (also spelled anti-semitism or anti-Semitism; also known as Judeophobia) is a term used to describe prejudice against or hostility towards people of Jewish lineage, which is ultimately rooted in, and based upon, a historical religio-cultural aversion to their core ancestral religious beliefs and way of life.

This prejudice or hostility is usually characterized by a combination of religious, racial, cultural and ethnic biases. ''


OK Beebrisk - this is the definition of ''antisemitism''. Nobody on this forum has said anything that could be interpreted as antisemitic, and suggesting that anybody here is antisemitic as you did is not only purely speculative but also highly insulting. Can the criticism of Israeli actions and policies be rooted in antisemitism? Sure. Does it have to be? Of course not. Is comparing acts of violence between Israelis and Palestinians acceptable? That is up for debate (sorry). Is drawing comparisons a sign of antisemitism? Maybe , maybe not.

So before you throw around big words that you may use differently (and if you do, please make that clear) I would think twice. It is an unfortunate and unnecessary distraction from the topic at hand.

See, I''m not a "maybe, maybe not" kinda gal. I actually believe in right and wrong and good an evil. (Sorry).

And thanks for the definition. Really clarified it for me...and proved my point.
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