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Israel will have a new PM, possibly a female

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swimmer

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Coalition building is like sausage making, but Tzipi is a fascinating woman. To have held so many opinions in the US is seen as a fault, but elsewhere it is seen as a process. Bibi might just beat her out, he has been around this block before, but interesting that her gender is not really a topic of interest link

Not sure if readers care, but many of us are intrigued by female politicians or any woman who can keep up with such a high demand career with a family.
 

strmrdr

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interesting.
Margaret Thatcher was one of my favorite world leaders I have a lot of respect for her.
 

beebrisk

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Date: 2/12/2009 4:55:42 PM
Author:swimmer
Coalition building is like sausage making, but Tzipi is a fascinating woman. To have held so many opinions in the US is seen as a fault, but elsewhere it is seen as a process. Bibi might just beat her out, he has been around this block before, but interesting that her gender is not really a topic of interest link


Not sure if readers care, but many of us are intrigued by female politicians or any woman who can keep up with such a high demand career with a family.

Her gender is of no interest because they''ve already had a female PM--40 years ago!
However, I''m hoping Bibi pulls it out. Israel needs someone like him right now.
 

sklingem

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However, I''m hoping Bibi pulls it out. Israel needs someone like him right now.

Yeah. Expanding existing Israeli settlements will boost the peace process big time. Maybe a coalition with the right-wing extremist parties is needed to really get some action going.
 

beebrisk

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Date: 2/13/2009 8:57:33 AM
Author: rob09
However, I''m hoping Bibi pulls it out. Israel needs someone like him right now.


Yeah. Expanding existing Israeli settlements will boost the peace process big time. Maybe a coalition with the right-wing extremist parties is needed to really get some action going.

Why am I not surprised by that bordering-on-racist, anti Semitic response from the tolerant liberal?
 

AGBF

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Date:
2/13/2009 2:44:36 PM
Author: beebrisk


Why am I not surprised by that bordering-on-racist, anti Semitic response from the tolerant liberal?

This is a highly emotional topic, especially for Arabs and Jews, but also for others. Let's try really hard to stick to the facts and to give our opinions as opinions without using epithets against each other. I don't really care if you accuse me of giving advice although I am not a moderator; I have been here for long enough to know that we are supposed to police ourselves.

I have a Jewish husband with family in Israel and yet I, personally, feel that there can be no peace unless we have another Yitzhak Rabin in office, someone who will try to work harder to give land to the Palestinians. It is hard to discuss these matters even within our family and sometimes we cannot do it, because someone gets too upset. In a family, though, we know that no one is anti-Semitic and that everyone loves the members of the family who have served in the IDF (the Israeli armed forces).

Let's try to keep it civil.

And, to be self-serving, from a purely practical view, if we can't keep it civil, Ali will close the thread in a split second ;-).

Deborah
 

diagem

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Date: 2/13/2009 2:59:53 PM
Author: AGBF










Date:
2/13/2009 2:44:36 PM
Author: beebrisk


Why am I not surprised by that bordering-on-racist, anti Semitic response from the tolerant liberal?

This is a highly emotional topic, especially for Arabs and Jews, but also for others. Let''s try really hard to stick to the facts and to give our opinions as opinions without using epithets against each other. I don''t really care if you accuse me of giving advice although I am not a moderator; I have been here for long enough to know that we are supposed to police ourselves.

I have a Jewish husband with family in Israel and yet I, personally, feel that there can be no peace unless we have another Yitzhak Rabin in office, someone who will try to work harder to give land to the Palestinians. It is hard to discuss these matters even within our family and sometimes we cannot do it, because someone gets too upset. In a family, though, we know that no one is anti-Semitic and that everyone loves the members of the family who have served in the IDF (the Israeli armed forces).

Let''s try to keep it civil.

And, to be self-serving, from a purely practical view, if we can''t keep it civil, Ali will close the thread in a split second ;-).

Deborah
IDF (Israel Defense Forces).
 

AGBF

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Date:
2/13/2009 6:26:10 PM
Author: DiaGem

IDF (Israel Defense Forces).

Oy vey...now they''re going to tell me that "armed" doesn''t begin with "d". How come no one told me "armed" doesn''t begin with a "d"?


Deb ;-)
 

ksinger

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Date: 2/13/2009 7:04:48 PM
Author: AGBF






Date:
2/13/2009 6:26:10 PM
Author: DiaGem

IDF (Israel Defense Forces).

Oy vey...now they''re going to tell me that ''armed'' doesn''t begin with ''d''. How come no one told me ''armed'' doesn''t begin with a ''d''?


Deb ;-)
Yes Deb, it IS amazing how many things your Jewish husband failed to tell you, isn''t it?
 

swimmer

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Date: 2/13/2009 8:57:33 AM
Author: rob09


Yeah. Expanding existing Israeli settlements will boost the peace process big time. Maybe a coalition with the right-wing extremist parties is needed to really get some action going.

Rob, as an Israeli who does not want her future children to have to fight and live the way I did, I totally agree with you. Tzipi is committed to a two state system. Bibi and the others who could not make peace, including of course Golda Meir, promised us short term safety when what we are now looking for is a future upon which plans can be built. That sort of future must include a humane plan for the Palestinians. This situation in too complicated to just hurl insults and bombs. AGBF, thank you for your endless supply of patience and clarity.

Beebrisk, I don''t think that the lack of interest in her gender has anything to do with Golda Meir, but more to do with her years in Mossad. The US had a female VP candidate in 1980, but that didn''t have much impact on the Palin discussion eh?
 

swimmer

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And I meant to write "in the 1980s" I totally know that Ferarro was a candidate in 1984 before someone jumps on me for that. Come on AGBF, be precise- צבא ההגנה לישראל ;-)
 

beebrisk

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Date: 2/13/2009 9:30:44 PM
Author: swimmer
Date: 2/13/2009 8:57:33 AM

Author: rob09



Yeah. Expanding existing Israeli settlements will boost the peace process big time. Maybe a coalition with the right-wing extremist parties is needed to really get some action going.


Rob, as an Israeli who does not want her future children to have to fight and live the way I did, I totally agree with you. Tzipi is committed to a two state system. Bibi and the others who could not make peace, including of course Golda Meir, promised us short term safety when what we are now looking for is a future upon which plans can be built. That sort of future must include a humane plan for the Palestinians. This situation in too complicated to just hurl insults and bombs. AGBF, thank you for your endless supply of patience and clarity.


Beebrisk, I don''t think that the lack of interest in her gender has anything to do with Golda Meir, but more to do with her years in Mossad. The US had a female VP candidate in 1980, but that didn''t have much impact on the Palin discussion eh?

If finding a "humane plan" for the Palestinians would ensure peace, then okay. But with leadership like Hamas, it will never happen. Never. No amount of reasoning, no amount of humanity will change the minds (and hearts) of a people whose mission is to wipe Israel off the map and kill as many Jews as possible. And if Israel doesn''t know this by now, then G-d help Israel.
 

diagem

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Date: 2/13/2009 7:04:48 PM
Author: AGBF






Date:
2/13/2009 6:26:10 PM
Author: DiaGem

IDF (Israel Defense Forces).

Oy vey...now they''re going to tell me that ''armed'' doesn''t begin with ''d''. How come no one told me ''armed'' doesn''t begin with a ''d''?


Deb ;-)
I think there is always a meaning withinin a name
...., no?
 

swimmer

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Date: 2/13/2009 11:33:01 PM
Author: beebrisk
Date: 2/13/2009 9:30:44 PM

Author: swimmer

Date: 2/13/2009 8:57:33 AM


Author: rob09


Yeah. Expanding existing Israeli settlements will boost the peace process big time. Maybe a coalition with the right-wing extremist parties is needed to really get some action going.



Rob, as an Israeli who does not want her future children to have to fight and live the way I did, I totally agree with you. Tzipi is committed to a two state system. Bibi and the others who could not make peace, including of course Golda Meir, promised us short term safety when what we are now looking for is a future upon which plans can be built. That sort of future must include a humane plan for the Palestinians. This situation in too complicated to just hurl insults and bombs. AGBF, thank you for your endless supply of patience and clarity.



Beebrisk, I don''t think that the lack of interest in her gender has anything to do with Golda Meir, but more to do with her years in Mossad. The US had a female VP candidate in 1980, but that didn''t have much impact on the Palin discussion eh?


If finding a ''humane plan'' for the Palestinians would ensure peace, then okay. But with leadership like Hamas, it will never happen. Never. No amount of reasoning, no amount of humanity will change the minds (and hearts) of a people whose mission is to wipe Israel off the map and kill as many Jews as possible. And if Israel doesn''t know this by now, then G-d help Israel.

I guess the same could be said of Egyptian leadership when I was a child. They hated us and wanted to "drive Jews into the sea," but we gave them back the Siani and guess who we now trade with and can count on to not stir up trouble? The Egyptians. The definition of insanity is to do the same thing over and over while expecting different results. I personally would trade some wasteland for the lives of my friends who were killed by these terrorists. I understand the rage that the Palestinians have. They have no home, no future, and most importantly, no way to attain skills. Now I blame this on both the Arab countries who have them trapped in the Occupied Territories, but I also blame this on Israel for choosing to ignore and not educate.

To some extent, it is our fault that they hate us, and no, I am not an Anti-Semite before you start hurling epithets. Israel squandered decades when there was peace, when we could have built schools and educated them. The schools they built for themselves are cesspools of hate-mongering, but if we had taught them skills, the Arab world would have welcomed them back with open arms or they could have stayed and been productive members of the only place in the Middle East where you can count on electricity 24/7, drink water from the tap, and have all the western amenities.

I love Israel with an undying passion; I have killed for her and would do so again should it be asked of me. What we have now is untenable and the people of Israel are increasingly ready to try something new. We certainly do know what Hamas is about, we read the papers everyday (Israelis read on avg 4 papers a day and are the world''s largest purchasers of books per capita), but we want a future where our babies won''t live in bomb shelters and where you can get on the bus without checking all the passengers out for explosives. We all want Israel to continue to exist. This is why we must work with anyone at all who is interested in discussing a plan for peace.

I don''t know when Israel began being seen as a "bully" with all the power, but a country the size of New Jersey protected by teenagers is actually very vulnerable, especially when surrounded by some very well armed and totally militarized oil producing countries, all of whom have larger populations and larger armies.
 

risingsun

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Date: 2/14/2009 8:26:14 AM
Author: swimmer


Date: 2/13/2009 11:33:01 PM
Author: beebrisk


Date: 2/13/2009 9:30:44 PM

Author: swimmer



Date: 2/13/2009 8:57:33 AM


Author: rob09


Yeah. Expanding existing Israeli settlements will boost the peace process big time. Maybe a coalition with the right-wing extremist parties is needed to really get some action going.



Rob, as an Israeli who does not want her future children to have to fight and live the way I did, I totally agree with you. Tzipi is committed to a two state system. Bibi and the others who could not make peace, including of course Golda Meir, promised us short term safety when what we are now looking for is a future upon which plans can be built. That sort of future must include a humane plan for the Palestinians. This situation in too complicated to just hurl insults and bombs. AGBF, thank you for your endless supply of patience and clarity.



Beebrisk, I don't think that the lack of interest in her gender has anything to do with Golda Meir, but more to do with her years in Mossad. The US had a female VP candidate in 1980, but that didn't have much impact on the Palin discussion eh?


If finding a 'humane plan' for the Palestinians would ensure peace, then okay. But with leadership like Hamas, it will never happen. Never. No amount of reasoning, no amount of humanity will change the minds (and hearts) of a people whose mission is to wipe Israel off the map and kill as many Jews as possible. And if Israel doesn't know this by now, then G-d help Israel.

I guess the same could be said of Egyptian leadership when I was a child. They hated us and wanted to 'drive Jews into the sea,' but we gave them back the Siani and guess who we now trade with and can count on to not stir up trouble? The Egyptians. The definition of insanity is to do the same thing over and over while expecting different results. I personally would trade some wasteland for the lives of my friends who were killed by these terrorists. I understand the rage that the Palestinians have. They have no home, no future, and most importantly, no way to attain skills. Now I blame this on both the Arab countries who have them trapped in the Occupied Territories, but I also blame this on Israel for choosing to ignore and not educate.

To some extent, it is our fault that they hate us, and no, I am not an Anti-Semite before you start hurling epithets. Israel squandered decades when there was peace, when we could have built schools and educated them. The schools they built for themselves are cesspools of hate-mongering, but if we had taught them skills, the Arab world would have welcomed them back with open arms or they could have stayed and been productive members of the only place in the Middle East where you can count on electricity 24/7, drink water from the tap, and have all the western amenities.

I love Israel with an undying passion; I have killed for her and would do so again should it be asked of me. What we have now is untenable and the people of Israel are increasingly ready to try something new. We certainly do know what Hamas is about, we read the papers everyday (Israelis read on avg 4 papers a day and are the world's largest purchasers of books per capita), but we want a future where our babies won't live in bomb shelters and where you can get on the bus without checking all the passengers out for explosives. We all want Israel to continue to exist. This is why we must work with anyone at all who is interested in discussing a plan for peace.

I don't know when Israel began being seen as a 'bully' with all the power, but a country the size of New Jersey protected by teenagers is actually very vulnerable, especially when surrounded by some very well armed and totally militarized oil producing countries, all of whom have larger populations and larger armies.
swimmer, you have a unique perspective on this topic. I would like to know how you would address beebrisk's concerns. In the name of all that's holy, I find myself in agreement with beebrisk
How can Israel realistically negotiate with Hamas, given their goal is the destruction of Israel. They have already broken the latest cease-fire. How can Israel trust Hamas? I enjoy your posts and am always interested in your POV.

BTW: Your avi is very much like Holly's. It is causing me much confusion until I read the contents of your posts
 

diagem

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Date: 2/14/2009 11:02:22 AM
Author: risingsun

Date: 2/14/2009 8:26:14 AM
Author: swimmer



Date: 2/13/2009 11:33:01 PM
Author: beebrisk



Date: 2/13/2009 9:30:44 PM

Author: swimmer




Date: 2/13/2009 8:57:33 AM


Author: rob09


Yeah. Expanding existing Israeli settlements will boost the peace process big time. Maybe a coalition with the right-wing extremist parties is needed to really get some action going.



Rob, as an Israeli who does not want her future children to have to fight and live the way I did, I totally agree with you. Tzipi is committed to a two state system. Bibi and the others who could not make peace, including of course Golda Meir, promised us short term safety when what we are now looking for is a future upon which plans can be built. That sort of future must include a humane plan for the Palestinians. This situation in too complicated to just hurl insults and bombs. AGBF, thank you for your endless supply of patience and clarity.



Beebrisk, I don''t think that the lack of interest in her gender has anything to do with Golda Meir, but more to do with her years in Mossad. The US had a female VP candidate in 1980, but that didn''t have much impact on the Palin discussion eh?


If finding a ''humane plan'' for the Palestinians would ensure peace, then okay. But with leadership like Hamas, it will never happen. Never. No amount of reasoning, no amount of humanity will change the minds (and hearts) of a people whose mission is to wipe Israel off the map and kill as many Jews as possible. And if Israel doesn''t know this by now, then G-d help Israel.

I guess the same could be said of Egyptian leadership when I was a child. They hated us and wanted to ''drive Jews into the sea,'' but we gave them back the Siani and guess who we now trade with and can count on to not stir up trouble? The Egyptians. The definition of insanity is to do the same thing over and over while expecting different results. I personally would trade some wasteland for the lives of my friends who were killed by these terrorists. I understand the rage that the Palestinians have. They have no home, no future, and most importantly, no way to attain skills. Now I blame this on both the Arab countries who have them trapped in the Occupied Territories, but I also blame this on Israel for choosing to ignore and not educate.

To some extent, it is our fault that they hate us, and no, I am not an Anti-Semite before you start hurling epithets. Israel squandered decades when there was peace, when we could have built schools and educated them. The schools they built for themselves are cesspools of hate-mongering, but if we had taught them skills, the Arab world would have welcomed them back with open arms or they could have stayed and been productive members of the only place in the Middle East where you can count on electricity 24/7, drink water from the tap, and have all the western amenities.

I love Israel with an undying passion; I have killed for her and would do so again should it be asked of me. What we have now is untenable and the people of Israel are increasingly ready to try something new. We certainly do know what Hamas is about, we read the papers everyday (Israelis read on avg 4 papers a day and are the world''s largest purchasers of books per capita), but we want a future where our babies won''t live in bomb shelters and where you can get on the bus without checking all the passengers out for explosives. We all want Israel to continue to exist. This is why we must work with anyone at all who is interested in discussing a plan for peace.

I don''t know when Israel began being seen as a ''bully'' with all the power, but a country the size of New Jersey protected by teenagers is actually very vulnerable, especially when surrounded by some very well armed and totally militarized oil producing countries, all of whom have larger populations and larger armies.
swimmer, you have a unique perspective on this topic. I would like to know how you would address beebrisk''s concerns. In the name of all that''s holy, I find myself in agreement with beebrisk
How can Israel realistically negotiate with Hamas, given their goal is the destruction of Israel. They have already broken the latest cease-fire. How can Israel trust Hamas? I enjoy your posts and am always interested in your POV.

BTW: Your avi is very much like Holly''s. It is causing me much confusion until I read the contents of your posts
I think Hamas is secondary..., I believe Israel''s primary objective of concern is Iran, they have the same (and worse) agenda as your highlighted text above and they keep reminding the world every opportunity they have of their intentions.
Shame is that even after a very short History..., the World doesnt (want to) take their intentions too seriously
. Just as they didnt in the past.

Never Again!
 

swimmer

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Marian, I will try to find a new avatar, not trying to confuse. I think that there is no point in dealing with what we think of as "Hamas." Hamas is the name given to a wide confederation of bandits, some of whom are currently elected into office. There is no leadership in the OT, therefore this is a hearts and minds operation. Yup, much more difficult to negotiate that as we see in Iraq and Afghanistan. You can not bomb a people into agreeing with you, the US has been trying that in Asia for a bit eh and it didn''t work in Vietnam, and it won''t work in Iraq. The "surge" is not what is creating the downtick in violence against American troops (and that one Icelandic troop), there are about 6 other more important factors at play. Violence begets violence, and if you live next door, well, pissing in your own well is never a good idea.

Israel must work to build schools and continue to offer hospital services to Palestinians. We must show them what it is like to earn a living wage and we must do this without condition and because they are humans. Yes, some of them are irreconcilably evil and to their core they hate us. Some of us are the same. One group has to be bigger and show kindness. Yes, they will repay us by shooting our children and blowing up our buses, but the only way to win over the mothers, the women who on both sides do not want to lose another child, is to provide educational opportunities to all. I grew up with Muslim Israelis who wanted to join the army when we all went in. By law they were not allowed, so they did not learn the technology or skills that we all got in the IDF and so worked their dad''s kebab shop and have no hope of ever moving above that. These young men, who wanted to be full-fledged Israeli citizens are now disenfranchised and disgruntled. The path to peace is through every heart, not through chatting up a loose confederation of not-organized thieves.

Does that make sense? There is no easy answer. Someone has to break the cycle and doesn''t look like its going to be the Palestinians.
 

beebrisk

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"‘If the Arabs put down their weapons today, there would be no more violence. If the Jews put down their weapons today, there would be no more Israel" - Benjamin Netanyahu

He's right. Period.
History has shown us so.
 

strmrdr

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swimmer,
Interesting posts but you have several things wrong I think....

The surge worked for one simple reason, it cut off the flow of terrorists and supplies from Syria and Iran.
That gave the people of Iraq enough confidence to turn on the terrorists in the last remaining areas.
Then there were enough troops to deal with the ones there once they were reported.
The Iraqi people feared 3 things:
1: that they would be abandoned like happened after the first gulf war.
2: trading one dictator for another.
3: not having the freedom to practice there religion
After they saw those fears not being likely they turned on the terrorists.
Some areas took a lot longer to do so than others.
That it took so long for the leadership in Washington to figure out what the troops on the ground were saying from day 2 is the real shame.

As far as Hamas goes it is much the same thing.
There can be no peace until the Palestinian people turn on the terrorists.
The attacks are a ploy by them to keep control just as much as attacks on Israel.
 

strmrdr

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Date: 2/14/2009 1:27:35 PM
Author: beebrisk



''‘If the Arabs put down their weapons today, there would be no more violence. If the Jews put down their weapons today, there would be no more Israel'' - Benjamin Netanyahu


He''s right. Period.

History has shown us so.
very true
 

AGBF

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Date:
2/14/2009 12:02:11 PM
Author: swimmer

Marian, I will try to find a new avatar.

Oh, don't do that, swimmer! Your red flowers are so beautiful! Holly's avatar has a house. (It may be a barn...there is a weathervane or windmill next to it but it is pretty small and hard to see). One learns to look for it. Think how many avatars of diamond rings there are on Pricescope! Can't we tolerate two of green fields with red flowers?


Deb, taking a stand for beauty on Valentine's Day :)


PS-I am sorry, but I cannot read any Hebrew at all. (I am referring to your earlier posting.)
 

swimmer

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Date: 2/14/2009 1:42:02 PM
Author: strmrdr
Date: 2/14/2009 1:27:35 PM

Author: beebrisk




''‘If the Arabs put down their weapons today, there would be no more violence. If the Jews put down their weapons today, there would be no more Israel'' - Benjamin Netanyahu



He''s right. Period.


History has shown us so.

very true

Have to run, so will address Storm''s other post later (as usual you show better insight than anyone Bushy was paying I must say).

To the above I just ask, which of your children (born or unborn) will you sacrifice to fight this unending war?

That quote is the very sort of Hooo Rah pablum that we were fed in the military and I bought it as a teen, but now I''m looking for something more problem solving. Now that I''ve seen the world and know that I never want to again pick up the dismembered parts of a child on the street. I know that the easy thing is to turn to violence, it is the most basic primal urge, but somehow we must be larger, we must be above this endless tit for tat childlike ranting...
 

elle_chris

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I''m half Jewish, lived there for 3 years as a kid and like others, still have family there and this is only MY take on it.


The Palestinians want to see Israelis dead; the Israelis don''t trust them and never will.


This isn''t about land although yes, they''ve claimed this as an issue since 1967. (But historically it''s been attacked ever since it''s creation in 48 and hey, they didn''t have the west bank then) This is about two very different cultures that can''t live side by side. Even if the land is given back there’s still the question of the right to return to Israel. I’ve noticed that issue doesn’t get brought up much because there really isn’t a solution to it.
“I” think the only way to achieve peace there is to force it. By that I mean every country withdraw all aid to Israel and Palestine. Force them into a peace, even if it’s strained. Yes I''m aware this isn''t very politically correct and sounds rather barbaric but for those that have lived in either region, you know the mentality. You know the hate on the side of the Palestinians and the distrust on the side of the Israelis You understand the culture there. Nothing has ever worked. We''re taking a western mindset and imposing it on a region that doesn''t see things the same way. All the peace talks in the world have not, and will not change a thing there. So, action by every country across the board is needed.

As far as having peace with Egypt, yes for now.
There are constant demonstrations in Egypt asking to severe ties with Israel. The government is walking a thin line between what the people want and what it wants. I’m not convinced the peace is going to last if the Palestinians don’t get their own state.

Swimmer, I agree with you on what Israel should have done. I also think it’s a too late to do that now. If common sense doesn’t work there (and it’s not), again, force it.


 

risingsun

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O/T: Swimmer~please don't change your avi! I was just teasing you. I can certainly tell you and Holly apart


I understand what you are saying, but how many lives will be lost in an effort to educate and heal Palestinian lives. Will they even let us try to help them. How do we undo the the generational hatred that they have already been taught about Jews and Israel? I am asking because I don't know how we can build a bridge over the current situation.
 

iheartscience

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swimmer, I''m really enjoying your posts in this thread. You definitely have a unique and informed perspective and I like hearing your thoughts on this subject. (Of course I always enjoy your posts, though, so that''s nothing new!)
 

strmrdr

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Date: 2/14/2009 3:27:44 PM
Author: swimmer



Have to run, so will address Storm's other post later (as usual you show better insight than anyone Bushy was paying I must say).
thanks, today a friend of mines son is sitting with a 50cal rifle watching a trail that was used for Iranian terrorists to cross over into Iraq. The terrorists haven't made it far into Iraq alive since his unit reached the area.
The estimate is that better than 300 a day was using the trail before that


To the above I just ask, which of your children (born or unborn) will you sacrifice to fight this unending war?
It is not that easy, if someone was launching rockets towards my home and the government would not do anything about it I would gather up some good old boys and deal with the problem myself.
Some things are worth dieing for.
 

diagem

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4,979
Date: 2/14/2009 12:02:11 PM
Author: swimmer


"...but the only way to win over the mothers, the women who on both sides do not want to lose another child,..."
I too understand your view point...

But..., what about the mothers who do want for the sake of "Jihad"??

Question..., do you (or anyone) know the number of Palestinian "mothers" that send their "children" to act as suicide bombs to kill the enemy?
And were proud to the level of receiving "Honor" after.

I am sure someone (here on PS) knows how to retrieve these details...

It would be interesting to see how "mother nature" acts opposite to the norm sometimes!
 

swimmer

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Nov 9, 2007
Messages
2,516
Date: 2/14/2009 3:50:04 PM
Author: elle_chris

I''m half Jewish, lived there for 3 years as a kid and like others, still have family there and this is only MY take on it.



The Palestinians want to see Israelis dead; the Israelis don''t trust them and never will.



This isn''t about land although yes, they''ve claimed this as an issue since 1967. (But historically it''s been attacked ever since it''s creation in 48 and hey, they didn''t have the west bank then) This is about two very different cultures that can''t live side by side. Even if the land is given back there’s still the question of the right to return to Israel. I’ve noticed that issue doesn’t get brought up much because there really isn’t a solution to it.

“I” think the only way to achieve peace there is to force it. By that I mean every country withdraw all aid to Israel and Palestine. Force them into a peace, even if it’s strained. Yes I''m aware this isn''t very politically correct and sounds rather barbaric but for those that have lived in either region, you know the mentality. You know the hate on the side of the Palestinians and the distrust on the side of the Israelis You understand the culture there. Nothing has ever worked. We''re taking a western mindset and imposing it on a region that doesn''t see things the same way. All the peace talks in the world have not, and will not change a thing there. So, action by every country across the board is needed.


As far as having peace with Egypt, yes for now.

There are constant demonstrations in Egypt asking to severe ties with Israel. The government is walking a thin line between what the people want and what it wants. I’m not convinced the peace is going to last if the Palestinians don’t get their own state.

Swimmer, I agree with you on what Israel should have done. I also think it’s a too late to do that now. If common sense doesn’t work there (and it’s not), again, force it.




Interesting points, yes, if Hamas wasn''t getting huge money from Saudi, the EU, and other places that think the cash is going to feed babies... well read this. The funding is not feeding babies as we all know. The law of return is scary, there just isn''t the space. I don''t know, my hope had been that they could go work in Dubai...but that bubble seems to have burst. I wonder what would happen if donations stopped...Israel would still hum along with one of the largest r&d tech sectors in the world, but I don''t know if the plague would break out in Gaza or a real search for leadership. Whatever happened, it would be extreme.
 

swimmer

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Nov 9, 2007
Messages
2,516
Date: 2/14/2009 4:04:55 PM
Author: risingsun

I understand what you are saying, but how many lives will be lost in an effort to educate and heal Palestinian lives. Will they even let us try to help them. How do we undo the the generational hatred that they have already been taught about Jews and Israel? I am asking because I don''t know how we can build a bridge over the current situation.

How does any society where two groups were raised to hate one another move on? Look at South Africa, Norther Ireland, and the American South. Could there be a Truth and Reconciliation process? How do groups go from, for example in Boston, riots and "No Irish Need Apply" to every Mayor being Irish and St. Patrick''s Day being a school vacation for all? The HS I attended was blown up in the early 60s by whites enraged at desegregation. Now its a 50/50% black white school and issues of class are more important/divisive than issues of race. How did we get from one point to another? It is different for every place and in every time. Lives will be lost in this process. But I personally would rather die on the path to peace than on the continued path of insanity (see earlier definition of trying the same thing over and over.)

Hugs to you! Glad you like my aunt''s garden.
 

swimmer

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Nov 9, 2007
Messages
2,516
Date: 2/15/2009 7:00:57 AM
Author: strmrdr
Date: 2/14/2009 3:27:44 PM

Author: swimmer




Have to run, so will address Storm''s other post later (as usual you show better insight than anyone Bushy was paying I must say).

thanks, today a friend of mines son is sitting with a 50cal rifle watching a trail that was used for Iranian terrorists to cross over into Iraq. The terrorists haven''t made it far into Iraq alive since his unit reached the area.

The estimate is that better than 300 a day was using the trail before that



To the above I just ask, which of your children (born or unborn) will you sacrifice to fight this unending war?

It is not that easy, if someone was launching rockets towards my home and the government would not do anything about it I would gather up some good old boys and deal with the problem myself.

Some things are worth dieing for.

Its a long border, glad that your friend''s son has a bit of it covered. I was a border patrol for years, long periods of boredom punctuated with moments of sheer terror and insanity was my general take on the situation. Good luck to him, it took years for me to relearn how to sleep deeply.

I like to think long term. Say I go put on my "shit kickers" and bash my neighbor''s face in to "solve a problem." What happens after that? How do you (and aforementioned good ole'' boys) continue to live next to them? I think you might win a battle but lose the war. As a kibbutznik friend says all the time, its like the Palestinians and Jews were created by a terrible computer program that perfectly created opposite and yet similar purposes and characteristics designed to conflict with one another. I think most Israelis understand why they are pissed, we are pissed for the same reasons, but in order to break the cycle of violence, violence probably is not the answer.

Yes, I agree that there are things worth dying for, but on the flip side of this, you have to decide what is worth living for and devote all that you can to making that objective a reality.

Shout out to thing2!!!! thank you for always being excellent, supportive, and curious! Glad to be your friend.
 
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