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ISO: Critiques of this round brilliant diamond

U

uffda

Rough_Rock
Joined
Aug 10, 2017
Messages
46
Hello Pricescopers,

First of all, thank you all for the advice you've already given me in my previous posts and that I've read here in other postings. I've learned so much about diamonds and what to look for that I feel dangerously knowledgeable on the subject in just a short period of time. It's been fun and addicting to read thoughts and opinions on here.

Now, on to the issue at hand... I've been reading this forum for a couple months now and am feel I'm getting closer to finally finding the right diamond for an engagement ring. A month ago, when I last created a post, I was pretty set on getting a very nice 1.2x carat G, VS2 from James Allen for $8,600 but decided that was just not the right fit for my girlfriend or for my budget. So, I've gone back to the drawing board and am sticking to my search criteria this time around in hopes of having better success and not prolonging our engagement! My thoughts on budget have been all over the place which is why I think I'm having such trouble. I feel I finally know that at most I want to spend at most $6k on the diamond only.

Here is my basic search criteria:
size: around ~1 carat
cut: this is the most important factor to me and will detail below
color: H color or better (prefer G or better)
clarity: VS2 or better (the least important of the 4cs to me but it has to be eye clean)
fluorescence: none or faint
Cut details:
· depth: 60 - 62.4% (although my personal preference is to allow up to 62.4%)
· table: 54 - 58%
· crown angle: 34 - 35 degrees
· pavilion angle: 40.6 - 41 degrees
· girdle: want to avoid extremes so I'm looking for thin to slightly thick, thin to medium, etc.
· GIA excellent (cut, polish, symmetry) or AGS Ideal 0

With that in mind, here is the diamond I've really been considering purchasing, and need your thoughtful critiques (hopefully for the last time).

#1 .$5660 VS2 G 6.27mm (.7 HCA) https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...g-color-vs2-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-3465913

3465913.jpg
I've also attached the Idealscope I received. My concern with this diamond is the low HCA score and the small-ish table and crown/pavilion angle combination (34/40.6). I do not want to buy a diamond that looks dark up close but great from 3+ ft away. What do you think? Are there better options out there (doesn't have to be JA)?

Thank you again!!
 
I will not comment on this diamond as a member of the trade, but I will comment on the concept that there is something wrong with an HCA score of 0.7.

There is no correlation between how good an HCA score of 2 is and how good an HCA score of 1.9 or 1.0 0r 0.7 is. Once the HCA reaches 2.0 or less, it is a candidate for further inspection with other tools that are indeed designed to be used as selection tools.

The HCA is designed to be a quick rejection tool to allow you to trim down the list of diamonds you are looking through and determine QUICKLY which are worthy of further inspection.

From time to time I see it posited that there is something wrong with diamonds with HCA scores lower than 1.0, but my personal experience is that this is simply not true. There may be issues with any diamond of HCA 2 and lower, but that is not in the design and functionality of the very useful HCA tool.

Once you have a list of diamonds with HCA scores of 2.00 or less, then you must switch to other tools to select your winner.

Just my thoughts.

Wink

P.S. Best final selection tool of all. YOUR EYES, telling you what YOUR EYES think.
 
Wink said:
I will not comment on this diamond as a member of the trade, but I will comment on the concept that there is something wrong with an HCA score of 0.7.

There is no correlation between how good an HCA score of 2 is and how good an HCA score of 1.9 or 1.0 0r 0.7 is. Once the HCA reaches 2.0 or less, it is a candidate for further inspection with other tools that are indeed designed to be used as selection tools.

The HCA is designed to be a quick rejection tool to allow you to trim down the list of diamonds you are looking through and determine QUICKLY which are worthy of further inspection.

From time to time I see it posited that there is something wrong with diamonds with HCA scores lower than 1.0, but my personal experience is that this is simply not true. There may be issues with any diamond of HCA 2 and lower, but that is not in the design and functionality of the very useful HCA tool.

Once you have a list of diamonds with HCA scores of 2.00 or less, then you must switch to other tools to select your winner.

Just my thoughts.

Wink

P.S. Best final selection tool of all. YOUR EYES, telling you what YOUR EYES think.
Click to expand...

Thank you for the insight! I won't rule out this stone because of the lower HCA score. The IS looks great to me.

I understand as a member of the trade your ability to comment on specifics for this diamond on limited, however, I do want to know if you can comment, in general, as to whether a feather located near the girdle (as this stone appears to have) would be a problem for visibility and more importantly durability?
 
Edge to edge good light return. Tiny bit of leakage under the table, but that is splitting hairs. Good symmetry. This is really nice and a good price for a good spread. I would have the JA Gemologist (not sales associate) examine the feather. It look near the edge of the girdle.

H as a comp. https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...at-h-color-vvs2-clarity-ideal-cut-sku-2872071 (On par with the one you selected, so I don't see any advantage other than the feather will be teeeny tiny and without durability worries. I can't find it on my phone screen on this one -- at VVS no surprise)

Comps in Super-Ideals around $6k
https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3520058.htm (6.23 mm)
https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3885309.htm (6.04 mm)
https://www.hpdiamonds.com/en-us/diamonddetail/HPD8530 (6.34)
https://www.hpdiamonds.com/en-us/diamonddetail/HPD8304 (6.27 mm)

RE: Feather, quoting from PS Info, "Generally, if a feather does not create an opening on the surface of the stone, if it does not reach the girdle edge, or if it does not connect to other feathers near the surface, then it should not be a durability issue. If you have concerns about feathers within your diamond, then it is wise to seek the input of a qualified independent appraiser. Feather inclusions should be examined on an individual basis."
 
rockysalamander said:
Edge to edge good light return. Tiny bit of leakage under the table, but that is splitting hairs. Good symmetry. This is really nice and a good price for a good spread. I would have the JA Gemologist (not sales associate) examine the feather. It look near the edge of the girdle.

H as a comp. https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...at-h-color-vvs2-clarity-ideal-cut-sku-2872071 (On par with the one you selected, so I don't see any advantage other than the feather will be teeeny tiny and without durability worries. I can't find it on my phone screen on this one -- at VVS no surprise)

Comps in Super-Ideals around $6k
https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3520058.htm (6.23 mm)
https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3885309.htm (6.04 mm)
https://www.hpdiamonds.com/en-us/diamonddetail/HPD8530 (6.34)
https://www.hpdiamonds.com/en-us/diamonddetail/HPD8304 (6.27 mm)

RE: Feather, quoting from PS Info, "Generally, if a feather does not create an opening on the surface of the stone, if it does not reach the girdle edge, or if it does not connect to other feathers near the surface, then it should not be a durability issue. If you have concerns about feathers within your diamond, then it is wise to seek the input of a qualified independent appraiser. Feather inclusions should be examined on an individual basis."
Click to expand...

I will check with JA but what questions do you recommend I ask about the feather?
1) Does the feather reach the surface?
2) Is the feather located on the edge of the girdle?
3) Do you think there are possible durability concerns based on the answers to 1) and 2)?
 
uffda said:
I will check with JA but what questions do you recommend I ask about the feather?
1) Does the feather reach the surface?
2) Is the feather located on the edge of the girdle?
3) Do you think there are possible durability concerns based on the answers to 1) and 2)?
Click to expand...

I'd simply ask if the feather poses any concners with durability of the girdle or if any portion of the feather iis open to the surface (I highly highly doubt that as you can see a nice constant plane where the feather is located. Its teeny tiny, but I think by asking you'll re-assure yourself that it is not a issue and can take @flyingpig's guidance.

Have you selected a setting?
 
rockysalamander said:
I'd simply ask if the feather poses any concners with durability of the girdle or if any portion of the feather iis open to the surface (I highly highly doubt that as you can see a nice constant plane where the feather is located. Its teeny tiny, but I think by asking you'll re-assure yourself that it is not a issue and can take @flyingpig's guidance.

Have you selected a setting?
Click to expand...

I'll fire off an email and ask for their gemologist to provide some peace of mind.

I have not selected a setting but would like something is as "low profile" as possible. My girlfriend is not picky, but she is a nurse and has concerns with taking gloves on and off all day. Her preference is really towards a solitaire setting and it being as low as possible. I was leaning towards this one in platinum but it looks a little too boring?

https://www.jamesallen.com/engageme...-six-prong-diamond-engagement-ring-item-50011
 
uffda said:
I'll fire off an email and ask for their gemologist to provide some peace of mind.
Click to expand...

GREAT. I should have suggested this. But you are on top of it.
 
uffda said:
I'll fire off an email and ask for their gemologist to provide some peace of mind.

I have not selected a setting but would like something is as "low profile" as possible. My girlfriend is not picky, but she is a nurse and has concerns with taking gloves on and off all day. Her preference is really towards a solitaire setting and it being as low as possible. I was leaning towards this one in platinum but it looks a little too boring?

https://www.jamesallen.com/engageme...-six-prong-diamond-engagement-ring-item-50011
Click to expand...

For a solitaire, I like this one below better. More graceful and flowing to my eyes.

https://www.jamesallen.com/engageme...e-flower-solitaire-engagement-ring-item-50125

https://www.jamesallen.com/engageme...ite-diamond-accent-engagement-ring-item-50319 (a lilttle sparkle on the shoulders is a nice touch)

For a nurse, a bezel might be a better choice.
https://www.jamesallen.com/engageme...-bezel-set-diamond-engagement-ring-item-53292 {good choice for nurses as it lacks prongs to catch on everything, tear gloves and poke patients)

https://www.jamesallen.com/engageme...l-set-pave-diamond-engagement-ring-item-53294 (same bezel ring with a nice sparkle on shoulder that still won't catch on everything)
 
rockysalamander said:
For a solitaire, I like this one below better. More graceful and flowing to my eyes.

https://www.jamesallen.com/engageme...e-flower-solitaire-engagement-ring-item-50125

https://www.jamesallen.com/engageme...ite-diamond-accent-engagement-ring-item-50319 (a lilttle sparkle on the shoulders is a nice touch)

For a nurse, a bezel might be a better choice.
https://www.jamesallen.com/engageme...-bezel-set-diamond-engagement-ring-item-53292 {good choice for nurses as it lacks prongs to catch on everything, tear gloves and poke patients)

https://www.jamesallen.com/engageme...l-set-pave-diamond-engagement-ring-item-53294 (same bezel ring with a nice sparkle on shoulder that still won't catch on everything)
Click to expand...

I do like the first setting but think it covers up too much of the diamond. That's what made me lean towards then one I sent first.
 
They have very different looks to me. Here's another, but I think you will like this even less (https://www.jamesallen.com/engageme...dern-tulip-diamond-engagement-ring-item-50671) .

IMHO, thet have similar diamond coverage. What I like about the Petite Flower and the Tulip is the narrowing at the top of the shank that will make the diamond look bigger and a not-solid side profile which will make it look less chunky (and easier to clean). These curvy settings are popular because women like all that intricate detailing and wire-work. As the wearer of the ring, you actually see the side as much as the top. So, a pretty side view is important. Here's the view of all three.

Petite Flower

upload_2017-9-27_15-28-56.png

6-Prong
upload_2017-9-27_15-30-2.png

TUlip
upload_2017-9-27_15-37-21.png
https://www.jamesallen.com/engageme...dern-tulip-diamond-engagement-ring-item-50671

Petite flower
 
flyingpig said:
GREAT. I should have suggested this. But you are on top of it.
Click to expand...
rockysalamander said:
I'd simply ask if the feather poses any concners with durability of the girdle or if any portion of the feather iis open to the surface (I highly highly doubt that as you can see a nice constant plane where the feather is located. Its teeny tiny, but I think by asking you'll re-assure yourself that it is not a issue and can take @flyingpig's guidance.

Have you selected a setting?
Click to expand...

Here is what I got back from the JA GIA Graduate Diamond Grader:

"By definition, all feathers reach the surface of a stone at some point. On the clarity diagram only the sections that break the surface are plotted with a thin red line. Since this diamond has a Dossier report with a laser inscription and not a clarity map, from what I can see in the 360° video it does appear that the feather is on one upper girdle facet, follows the girdle and then reaches a lower girdle facet. Again, since the rating is VS2 this feather is nothing to be concerned about but if you would like we can place a prong over the area. "

Thoughts??
 
uffda said:
Here is what I got back from the JA GIA Graduate Diamond Grader:
Again, since the rating is VS2 this feather is nothing to be concerned about but if you would like we can place a prong over the area. "

Thoughts??
Click to expand...

I expected such answer from JA and agree.
It is a VS2 feather and prongable.

Edit..I looked at the price. at 5.6k, I think it is a bit expensive for a sub 1.0c G VS2. It is a good stone though.
 
flyingpig said:
I expected such answer from JA and agree.
It is a VS2 feather and prongable.

Edit..I looked at the price. at 5.6k, I think it is a bit expensive for a sub 1.0c G VS2. It is a good stone though.
Click to expand...

Shoot, I was wondering if the price was good. I really thought it was. What would be a better price do you think?
 
Not a direct answer to your question, but her are all the .94 G VS2 in the PS database. All of these fall outside ideal parameters (using just table and depth) except the last one from BN.

upload_2017-9-27_19-22-51.png
 

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flyingpig said:
For a 0.90c G VS2, I would not pay more than 5.0k.
The stone you listed is 0.94c. So.. I say 5.2k max. Here is an example.
https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...g-color-vs2-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-2752369

https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...d-color-vs2-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-3424709
0.91c D VS2 at 5.2k

For a 5.7k budget, you should be looking at 1.0c H SI/VS or 1.0c G SI1
Click to expand...

Thanks @flyingpig for the information and looking up some other stones. I think I got excited about this one because the Idealscope looked so good to me and figured it might be priced at a slight premium because of that. I will check out the ones you linked as well for the jump in clarity on that D or better price for the G.
 
uffda said:
Thanks @flyingpig for the information and looking up some other stones. I think I got excited about this one because the Idealscope looked so good to me and figured it might be priced at a slight premium because of that. I will check out the ones you linked as well for the jump in clarity on that D or better price for the G.
Click to expand...

Here is another one.
https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...e-color-vs1-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-3448206

I am just giving you other options to consider for a 5.7k budget
1. 0.90c D/E VS2
2. 0.94 G VS2
3. 1.0c H/G SI/VS (with upto med fluo)

For me, 0.90c=0.94c. Neither is 1.0c. So my choice is 1 or 3.
But the 0.94c G VS2 is beautiful. It can be a good choice if you want to get something very close to 1.0c, but don't have a 6.5k budget for 1.0c G VS2 no/faint fluo.

It is a matter of how much you value the extra 0.04c and the cut quality of the G VS2.
 
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Mentioned in this thread
Here are a few above 1.0 carat to look at. They would have to be confirmed as eye-clean by JA gemologist and request an IS.
Imaging online-Excellent Light return
Budget Buy
0.9 H SI2, 6.24 mm, $4730, https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...h-color-si2-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-2876562 {have a look, the feather on the girdle can be covered with a prong making this a budget buy; no flour so the haziness is likely just a photo artifact}
 
So, where are you with this now? You've got a long list of potentials.
 
For anyone still paying attention to my thread, can I get some more thoughts on what to do? The D grade .91 carat diamond is priced at $5230. I feel like like I can see a lot more black spots at the bottom of the diamond between the arrows when rotating which makes it not look as good as my original .94 carat choice.

@flyingpig @msop04 @rockysalamander
 
uffda said:
For anyone still paying attention to my thread, can I get some more thoughts on what to do? The D grade .91 carat diamond is priced at $5230. I feel like like I can see a lot more black spots at the bottom of the diamond between the arrows when rotating which makes it not look as good as my original .94 carat choice.

@flyingpig @msop04 @rockysalamander
Click to expand...

The black spots you see are reflections of the black camera body. It has something to do with the camera setup, not an issue with the diamond.
Have you requested the IS image of the D VS2? This will answer your question.
Having that said, the optical symmetry of the D VS2 is not as great as in the G VS2. The bottom arrow does not align perfectly
But, it is 3 color grades higher with only 0.05mm loss in diameter for $500 less.

If you heart says the G VS2 , go for it. It really is a handsome diamond.
 
flyingpig said:
The black spots you see are reflection of the black camera body. It has something to do with the camera setup, not an issue with the diamond.
Have you requested the IS image of the D VS2? This will answer your question.
Having that said, the optical symmetry of the D VS2 is not as great as in the G VS2.
But, it is 3 color grades higher with only 0.05mm loss in diameter for $500 less.

If you heart says the G VS2, go with it. It is a handsome diamond.
Click to expand...

It's overseas so I've been told that I can't get an IS image so will just need to roll the dice if I go with it.

I'm leaning towards the D VS2 though. My local jewelry shop has a .93 carat D VS2 for $7530! Scores worse on the HCA as well.

Would your preference still be towards this one even without an IS image? Do you think that single black inclusion/crystal is a big deal?
 
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In real life, the black crystal will look like couple dead pixels on your 1080p 22inch monitor. It will be visible if you really try.
Zoom out and view the stone at 7X~8X magnification.
 
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